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Why do some planes leave long trails, but others don’t?

Some planes in the sky leave trails that persist and spread, and other planes, in the same sky, leave short-lived trails, or no trails at all.

These trails are actually called contrails, short for “condensation trails”.  They are not smoke from the engines, they are formed when the water in jet engine exhaust (and there’s quite a lot of it, like car exhaust on a cold day) mixes with wet cold air and condenses and freezes into ice crystals.  Contrails are actually a type of cirrus cloud.  When the air is wet and cold enough the trails can stay around for a long time, and sometimes spread out.

This difference between trails that fade away, and trails that spread, is often used as evidence of the “chemtrail” theory, which states that the longer lasting trails (or some of them) are being deliberately manipulated for some reason.  So you see helpful images like this.

But this is wrong. Contrails can fade away, and contrails can persist and spread. It depends on the air they are formed in.

Now there are two main reasons why some planes leave trails and some nearby planes do not.  The less common reason is that different planes have different engines.  Some engines will leave a contrail in the air where another engine will not.  Here, for example, are an Airbus A340 (maiden flight: 1991) on the left, leaving contrails, and a Boeing 707 (maiden flight: 1957) not leaving contrails. Both are flying at 33,000 feet (part of a German test to study contrail formation), but the exhaust of the newer engines of the A340 is at a lower temperature, and so makes contrails in a wider range of conditions*.

You can also get a similar effect with engines at different power settings, especially if it affects the exhaust temperature. This can occasionally be seen with high altitude refueling, when the plane being refueled cuts the throttle to near idle in order to separate from the tanker.

Contrails in a refueling situation turn on/off

But here’s the main reason why you see trails on some planes but not on others, and I’ll emphasize it, because although it’s simple, it’s also easy to miss.

The planes are at different altitudes.

Yes, it’s really that simple.  The reason that one plane makes contrails or makes contrails that persist, and the other plane does not, is that they are in different regions of the air.   For simplicity, let’s refer to these regions of air as wet air and dry air, although the differences are a bit more complex.

When the plane is in wet air, it makes a contrail.  In dry air, it does not.

Surely, you might object, they would have to be miles apart?  Well, no, and that brings me to another point I fear I must emphasize:

Wet and dry air can exist within a few feet of each other.

Consider, for example, clouds:

Inside the cloud it’s wet.  Outside it’s dry.  What’s the difference between inside and outside?  It’s a few feet.

Look at the bottom of those clouds, see them extend off into the distance.  They form a layer at a specific altitude. Above that altitude there are clouds.  Below it there are no clouds.  The difference between clouds and no clouds is just a few feet.

Now those are low altitude cumulus clouds.  Let’s look at high altitude clouds.

Again they are in a flat layer.  The difference between being in the layer and not in the layer is just a few feet.

This layering of the air into wet and dry layers is not limited to clouds.  Seemingly clear air also contains exactly the same kind of variation in layers.  This was very neatly illustrated by the recent launch of the Solar Dynamics Observatory.  As it ascended it did not leave a contrail, until it hit a layer of wet air, when it left a contrail that lasted quite a while, and then it went into dry air again, and no more contrail

So, if a plane were flying in that middle region then it would probably leave a persisting contrail.  If it were above or below it then it would not.

But, you may cry, the planes are at the same altitude.   Now you might even disagree with a “few feet”, and say the planes were too close for them to be in different layers.  I’d respond with:

You can’t tell how high a plane is

And you certainly can’t tell if one plane is at the same altitude as another.   These planes fly at 30,000 to 40,000 feet.   Let’s see what the visual difference is at around that altitude:

I took one image of a jet nominally at 35,000 feet. Then scaled it for 34,000 (102.9%) and 32,000 feet (109.4%). I think you’ll agree they all look pretty much the same. Especially as this is more zoomed in than you’d see with the naked eye, which would be more like:



If the planes are flying lower, then it’s still similar. If the top plane was flying at 20,000 feet, then the bottom would be at 18,285 feet, still nearly 2,000 feet apart, and looking pretty much the same to the naked eye.

And that is with the same model of plane, directly overhead, and right next to each other. A situation that almost never occurs. If the planes are different, or separated, or at an angle to you, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to tell the relative altitudes when they are high in the sky.  Just look at this:

Or from the ground, with the planes at 30,000 feet.


They look about the same height, right?  In fact, if they were not overlapping, you’d think the JAL plane was lower, as it seems bigger, hence closer.  But actually, the JAL plane (a B777) is at least 1000 feet above the DHL plane (an A300).

And look at some planes on the ground, where we know they are all the same distance from the camera. The differences in size are very significant:

So, a simple question gets a simple answer:

The planes leave different trails because the planes are at different altitudes.

See Also:
https://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/ – Why contrails are often broken and start and stop abruptly.

Debunked: High Bypass Turbofans do not make Contrails [actually they make more] – A more detailed look at why modern engines make contrails in a wider range of conditions.

*(Edited 3/15/2015): when I wrote this article in 2010 I’d said that the newer more efficient engines produced “more water”, and while it’s true that the cleaner the combustion the more water is produced, the difference is negligible for the two engine types discussed. The key difference is the exhaust gas temperature, as explained in the more recent  Metabunk article

376 thoughts on “Why do some planes leave long trails, but others don’t?

  1. JFDee says:

    Michael said:

    “But nope.. if it costs a few quid more in fuel bills….. cant be done”

    Higher fuel consumption per mile means more pollution, more CO2 – is that worth a reduction in ice crystals? I think not.

  2. michael says:

    if your a pilot you still earn more than you deserve. A cleaner in a local factory may work 40 hours with swat from her bead.. she deserves as much as the M.D who sits on his leather seat hosting meetings… a worker is worthy of His pay.. the Elite.. LIVE it up.. on a different planet and employ various tactics to keep joe public in prison,,,

  3. captfitch says:

    Hey Micheal- I’m usually very polite on here but FUCK YOU!!!!

    You have no idea what I do on a daily basis to ensure the safety and well being of the passengers I fly.

  4. michael says:

    i dont really give a toss what you do all i know is that cleaner lady with beads of sweat works harder than you… the gap between salaries is PATHETIC. You do not deserve to earn 5 or 10 times anybody just because you managed to do a little better acedemically.

  5. michael says:

    re co2… dont believe the lie. It is nonesense. Co2 is not dimming the planet!

  6. JFDee says:

    Apart from CO2, where you are entitled to your opinion, do you think soot and nitrogenous oxides are less polluting than ice crystals?

  7. michael says:

    less poluting than some of the crap you lot have sprayed from your planes….! If your a piolot do they ask you to switch fuel tanks mid flight? Oh let me guess.. your not allowed to look at the fuel system.. just the fuel level. What about the waste system? Oh let me guess your not allowed to look at that there are special teams of people do that. Lesser paid of course, you hope….. but lets not go there…. puppets not pilots…. you fly a plane you do what your told… do your job and dont ask questions thats why the salary is so high…. a very good job doing. Shame you are being used to spray.
    Lets hope it stops this summer. Virgin have even tried to pacify people by putting chemspray into their adverts! As a ‘normal’ part of sky! NASA have RECLASSIFIED their CLOUD charts! See none of the chemspray clouds are on the charts i studied at uni.. they are unclassifiable… but nasa say oh its just cirrus. Yea right. Haarp lines… oh cirrus. lol

  8. JFDee says:

    I think you will have a difficult time being taken seriously if you continue to phantasize in that manner.

    What happened to the vertical contrail? Or to your demand that airplanes choose a different altitude to avoid creating contrails?

  9. GregOrca says:

    Michael, You still haven’t explained the PURPOSE of the white wakes behind speed boats.
    WHY is the govt making those white trails behind speedboats? Who is secretly filling up tanks in the boats with white material for the spraying?
    Are you saying that the govt is not evil enough to do such a thing?
    There are documents available under the FOIA that prove that the govt has dumped poisons at sea and there are many patents about pumping poison into water.
    Just join the dots!
    Rising mercury found in fish.
    Records of toxic dumping
    Military speed boats like PT109 admitted
    Mysterious patterns on the water.
    No evidence of long trails in nature
    Whistleblowers admitting their boats leave long trails
    Words like “Jetsam” being found in official navy documents meaning “cargo that is purposefully cast overboard”
    Obviously these white wakes are the top secret jetsam referred to in military papers

    It is obviously purposeful, otherwise there would not be zig zag patterns, circles and X patterns forming on lakes, rivers and oceans that could be seen by satellites.
    Such white wakes cannot be natural. You do not see them behind fish or swimming ducks.
    The white wakes seem to be turned on and off as the boats change speed or bounce over waves. That is very suspicious that they are not a constant length
    Scientists are finding high levels of mercury in fish and small heavy metal lead spheres are often found scattered over the bottom of the sea attached to mysterious polymer filaments often many feet long.
    These cannot be natural either.
    Why are you refusing to answer the question about the purpose of the deliberate white wakes behind speedboats? What are you trying to hide from the public?

  10. captfitch says:

    I bet he’s an overpaid speedboat captain and doesn’t know what he’s doing anyway.

  11. Marcel says:

    “small heavy metal lead spheres are often found scattered over the bottom of the sea attached to mysterious polymer filaments often many feet long.”

    Love it!

  12. michael says:

    [Admin: Comment deleted. Discussions of wage inequality have no place here. Discuss contrails and chemtrails if you like]

  13. Ronalds says:

    Okay, does this really explain the massive trails that do not evaporate? Maybe, but this certainly does not explain the massive amounts of aluminium.

  14. Yes, it explains the trails.

    The “massive amount of aluminum” is just from the soil and windblown dust. Aluminum is about 7% of soil. You find it everywhere. Nothing unusual has been found.

  15. GregOrca says:

    Ronald, Yes it does explain the trails that don’t evaporate. Please read the many science papers linked to on this site

    You are correct in stating that trails in the sky do not explain the massive amounts of aluminium found at ground level
    Those were deposited during the formation of the earth over 4 billion years ago and back then jet aircraft were harder to find.

    The natural average level of aluminium in soil is 7.1% or 71,000ppm
    People with negligible science background who do not understand geology are surprised when they find that the earth’s surface contains a large percentage of aluminium and attribute it to jet aircraft, without going through the logical step of wondering where aircraft might get it from.

    This conceptual failure is little different to people with little understanding of oceanography being surprised that the ocean is full of salt and fluoride and suspecting that Ships are the cause of the saltiness and the 1.5ppm fluoride

  16. michael says:

    Hyped up by the news.. only in small southern parts of britain.. a few inches.. we get more than that every year up here and it rarely makes national news. Its been the mildest winter ive ever experienced in my life up here. Ladybirds in my garden all winter, the odd fly still about.

  17. Sounds like normal variation. Look at the historical record.

  18. michael says:

    listen GREG ORCA why do you naturally assume we know nothing! You always insist on talking down to people.. im sure your the same dude that has been e mailing me on you tube… your all working for the government.. you all send the same links across as ‘proof’ that spraying chemicals from your planes is just ‘us being paranoid’ if seen every one of them before and at one point you almost had me persuaded. ‘Chem’trails were dissapearing as i was filming them! They were just contrails! I was crazy!
    Then… the proper chemtrails came… there is NO MISTAKING them you can mess about with weakened solutions whatever you are doing.. but CHEMSPRAY is CHEMSPRAY and NO AMOUNT OF BULLSHIT SCIENCE IS GONNA KEEP THE TRUTH FROM COMING OUT.

  19. michael says:

    you go look at historical records.. and you will find that chemtrail clouds did not exist 20 30 40 years ago… only the odd contrail! You go do your own research.

  20. So why does this 1972 book show contrails just like your “chemtrails”?


    Read the text, it explains how they can last for hours.

  21. michael says:

    absolute filth caused by airscaft… STOP SPRAYING OUR SKIES …. as already stated.. i dont care wether there is chemicsl or is not chemical the aftermath is disguisting and very easily avoidable. I dread to think what came out of aircraft fumes back in them days.. even IF those pictures are real…certainly no where as clean as the fuel they now use. But yet we STILL have a WORSENED problem and it is CLEARLY impacting our weather.. it needs to stop if my car made such a mess i would have it taken off the road by the police.
    So if planes make such a mess they should be identified their mission shouldbe made public and measures should be taken to ensure that in the EVENT of environmental conditions favoring persistant contrail formation… flight paths should all we SHIFTED to avoid such incidence.
    If planes were willing to identify themselves then this problem would be cleared uponce and for all.. but this will never happen.. why… because we know that the planes that are out SPRAYING chemicals are often not passenger airliners.. but military jets being paid to do so… who are not carrying passengers at all. Hence the vertical flight path that i videoed and showed earlier….


  22. GregOrca says:

    Sorry if I come across that way. May I ask in the same vein why you assume anyone who is knowledgeable on a subject must be a govt agent?
    The reason people send the same links is because those links are CORRECT
    When people try to explain to you how an aircraft flies do you object and call them govt agents because they ALL refer to the bernoulli effect, angle of attack, airfoil sections, lift to drag ratios and other aspects of “bullshit science”.
    Those things are repeated by everyone because they are the TRUTH.
    It’s the same reason most sane people would use the same terms to explain the rules of football to you and not invoke fantasy ideas of golden snitches, bludgers and quaffles. Those are the domain of fantasy, just as “chemtrails” are a fantasy.

    A lot of people have patiently made an effort to explain reality to you and you have responded with abuse and religious incantations.

    You wrote ” it needs to stop if my car made such a mess i would have it taken off the road by the police.”

    No, it would not be taken off the road. It would be normal.
    In parts of the world such as Alaska, it is so cold, similar to that of airliner altitudes, that cars at ground level make contrails.
    It is simply a NATURAL PHENOMENA and just because YOU cannot understand it does not mean there is anything wrong with it.

    You still haven’t explained the purpose of the white wakes behind speedboats… or do you think that is an example of an absurd misunderstanding a natural fluid dynamic phenomena.
    That is exactly the issue of your belief in “chemtrails”

  23. Jay Reynolds says:

    I see you wrote:
    “It is believed by me that you know fine well what they are up to and are here to attempt to diffuse or confuse the discussion.”

    I find it very interesting that you would make such a statement. Do you really believe that Uncinus or anybody else is really trying to confuse a discussion? From what I see of the discussion, everyone here is being quite patient and doing their best to give you all sorts of references to factual, documented and confirmable information. While its clear that you reject it, and I suppose you may actually have something factual, documened, and confirmable, you haven’t explained or shown anything at all in an ordinary rational fashion as others have done for you.

    Do you not believe in the “Golden Rule”?

    Have you given any signs of being a person able to discuss this rationally?

    Perhaps you should re-read the passage you wrote and which I quoted above, then ask yourself, “Who is really the person here trying to “diffuse or confuse the discussion”?

    I say this because to me it appears you are the one who is doing so.

  24. Jimmy says:

    Spray programmes have been around since the 60’s so a book published in 1972 could potentially contain “Chemtrails”.

    Has anyone actually spoken to an expert on the subject instead of getting information from anywhere they can without checking source credibility?

  25. Don Gisselbeck says:

    After all of these charges that Uncinus is a paid disinfo agent maybe it is time to bring this up (again?) http://xkcd.com/386/. Isn’t that enough motive?

  26. michael says:

    Those cars are all leaving contrails… not just some of them! They are identifiable by their number plates… and the contrail is what it appears to be.. water vapor and if those ‘clouds’ were classified they would be cumuli rather than cirrus.
    They have not left a ‘layer’ or ‘film’ that is hovering above them.
    Video references.. there all over the internet….! I don’t need to produce the evidence you have already seen! The video i showed you is an image of a vertical flight… making a cross with a horizontal line.. it is not a perception but OBVIOUS .. and you say the plane is level…. you are obviously crazy and use anything you can to try and persuade myself and any on lookers that it is in fact the other way around.
    Religious incantations.. since i’m not into the occult like you i am not aware of any religious incantations i do not perform the same ceremonies and rituals as you do nor have i signed your oath of declaration.

  27. JFDee says:

    Jimmy said:

    “Has anyone actually spoken to an expert on the subject […] ?”

    There are two or three meteorologists hanging around here. I think you can count them as experts. They elaborated the bit about “supersaturated with respect to ice” several times (the atmospheric condition for good contrails). To be honest, I just have to accept that because its not easy to imagine.

    I’m a hobby pilot like several of the regulars here, and what I do know is that the air gets a lot colder the further up you are above the ground. I memorized this for the theoretical exam, but I also experienced it during my flights. It’s true.

    The known fact of the temperature lapse, combined with basic school knowledge about relative humidity, makes the “natural” development of clouds and contrails (that is, with no additives) very plausible.

  28. JFDee says:


    my question further up about potential religious meaning of the “cross” you described was inspired by your repeated attempts of exorcism. I quote: “AWAY WITH YOU SATAN THE LORD REBUKE YOU”

    So somehow I felt the cross you saw may have been something like an omen to you. I may have misinterpreted that, and it’s not important really.

    I’m not religious, BTW.

  29. The video i showed you is an image of a vertical flight… making a cross with a horizontal line.. it is not a perception but OBVIOUS .. and you say the plane is level…. you are obviously crazy and use anything you can to try and persuade myself and any on lookers that it is in fact the other way around.

    Here’s a perfectly horizontal grid of lines at 5 mile intervals, at 36,000 feet, above San Francisco, and the Golden Gate Bridge, viewed from space.

    Here’s a closer view:

    Here’s the view from the ground

    Notice that even though all the lines are ALL perfectly horizontal, some look like they are going up in the air, and where they intersect, you get a cross.

  30. I’ve added the above images to the “Contrails are usually Horizontal” page:


  31. Heh says:

    Uncinus today I saw a plane making con/chem trail while turning. To me it looked like the plane was flying higher in the process..

    Seperate note. To me it seems these trails only appear on clear days..then the next few days it might be cloudy.. Anyone else notice this

  32. SR1419 says:

    That is a great example Uncinus…and a great perspective…I often walk my dog on that very beach…(Baker Beach in the Presidio)

  33. Heh, often humid air can precede a warm fron at high altitude, so you’ll see contrails first, then cirrus clouds, then lower clouds, then eventually rain (depending on the weather system).

    When a plane turns it’s most likely still in level flight, unless it’s near an airport. Even them most planes only descend or ascent at a pretty shallow angle. 5 degrees or less. So it’s probably a trick of perspective, like the grid, above.

  34. Heh says:

    There’s no airport close to my house

  35. Heh says:

    Why do these trails seem to block the sun or appear over very Populated cities?

  36. captfitch says:

    they don’t appear more often over very populated areas? Why do you believe that they do?

    If these aircraft are producing these trails at high altitude why would it matter wheather there is an airport near you?

  37. GregOrca says:

    Hi Heh. They appear over the middle of uninhabited oceans.
    Here’s the concorde making one over the ocean


    Sailors use them for weather prediction. They appear over vast scarcely populated deserts.
    They appear over the Arabian Peninsular, watch?v=NwIxfOZbBpQ
    over Africa, South America, central Australia, over Antarctica, over india, Taiwan, Siberia. Anywhere a plane is likely to fly at high altitude.

    They don’t make them at airports on takeoff or landing except in VERY cold places like Alaska and Antarctica.
    Planes DO make spectacular aerodynamic contrails at take off and landing though.:

  38. michael says:

    RE unicus… yes i fully understand the perspective thing with verticle flights… if i didnt i would be reporting vertical flights every day! And indeed the horizontal path in the video i linked could be described as verticle depending on the angle you view it from… and obviously the world is round etc etc… but look at the telegraph poles. This is not a perspective error! You know fine well the flight was almost verticle!
    The fact is that in my part of britain.. had there of been zero aircraft last summer would of been one of the hottest on record.
    Instead it was rubbish and even on the days it was nice.. the sun was filtered by a visible thin layer that was put there by aircraft. The MAXIMUM number of days of blue sky we were allowed was 3.
    If you wanna blame ‘God’ and pockets of cold dry air.. you do that. If you are correct… the problem could very easily be shifted by flights using a different altitude.

    To me what happened was too coordinated to be any ‘pockets of dry cold air’ phenomenon and i believe its deliberate. And is still happening now. This aint any fantasy… i have no interest in aircraft contrail formation not have i ever.. but i do like sunshine and i DO believe governing authorities are up to naughty stuff with the air food and water… air being the most difficult to prove.

  39. michael says:

    if the planes would reveal their identity it would be fully possible to measure their altitude.. because you would know the type and dimentions of the plane… but repeatedly these aircraft are NOT marked.. and not visible on the air traffic trackers you can get online. And yes we have already seen the video that explains how light diccipates and that it can cause an illusion of an unmarked plane or ghost plane.. so dont bother taking that course of digression!

  40. So Michael, just to get this straight, you think that in this video:


    Then one plane is flying “vertical”.

    Because they both look perfectly horizontal to me, they are just overhead. You are looking up.

    And to clarify terms, “vertical” means rapidly gaining altitude, so flying up at an angle greater than 45 degrees. Whereas “horizontal” mean flying with basically unchanging altitude, less than five degrees.

  41. So why are there no clear photos of unmarked planes?

  42. michael says:

    They do in the screen shot you have taken…but from every single viewpoint on the earth all the way back to my home town 15 20 miles away and 200 feet higher…it was visible as a vertical. Once again look at the angle of the pylon wire. Why even bother your brain .you already know the crack man! Its a very sharp incline perhaps 80 degrees… heading slightly north… yawn.

  43. michael says:

    not getting into that one.. i know you have a video for that too.. send me £100 and ill buy a lense and show you unmarked!

  44. The pylon wires are horizontal as well. I’m really unsure what the confusion is here. The wires are horizontal, the contrails are horizontal. They cross because you are looking up that them.

  45. captfitch says:

    I think if you percieve that the portion of the trail that is closer to the right hand of the shot is closer to you then yes, the trail appears vertical. But clearly the portion on the right is much farther away than the portion on the left.

  46. michael says:

    So now your saying any flight path in the sky is infact horizontal…. ah i guess your gonna tell me the sky is flat now? lol look man he is flying UP in the sky at a very steep angle.. period… and following 2 verticle trails that have already been left. The weaker line.. crossing over.. is almost horizontal.Flying slightly upwards.. this one was a normal contrail that diccipated and this flight was most likely a passenger airliner who was circling the airport.. he is on a flight path. The other.. is one of a sequence of planes creating a verticle ‘cloud’.. maybe i could of spent the whole day taking pictures of this cloud just to demonstrate.. but quite frankly i have more important things to do!

    As i said.. last summer should and would of been one of the nicest summers ever weather wise…. but blue skies were repeatedly whitened by aircraft… it started out just like this……. the odd few planes creating the odd cloud here and there… then more obvious planes would come from behind the clouds turn their sprayers on form big lines that would expand and join. They would then turn the sprayers off…. fly into the cloud cover.. turn around… and continue.. in every piece of blue sky…..Sept 26th was worst i ever noticed it.

  47. Alexey says:

    It seems to me that the apparent velocity of aircraft in the Michael’s video is much to slow for its flying “vertically”. The laws of aerodynamics do not allow aircraft climb straight up that slow.

  48. Alexey says:

    Michael, could you tell us what part of the UK do you live in?

  49. JFDee says:

    Michael said:

    “… send me £100 and ill buy a lense and show you unmarked!”

    Did you have at least a look with a pair of binoculars or – better – a scope? Because you can’t judge about missing markings with your bare eyes or a cheap camera.

  50. Michael, the “vertical” plane is simply flying towards you. Look back at the image so the grid again.

    Would you agree that all the lines in the grid are horizontal?

    Now look at your photo overlaid on that grid, looking up from the ground:

    If the grid lines are all horizontal, then why can’t the contrails also be horizontal?

  51. captfitch says:

    It doesn’t help that that the portion of the trail that is further away has had some time to expand out, making it larger and therefore, due to our visual “rules” appears closer. I can see it if I look at it right. Looks like he’s climbing away at a very steep angle that would be impossible to sustain for any length of time.

    Just look at it differently micheal

  52. Yes, that was a big part of the “Mystery Missile” illusion. The perspective was even more forced there, and the far part of the trail was much wider than the near part, leading people to think it was a missile flying at 45 degrees away from the camera, when it was actually a horizontal contrail coming towards it.


  53. heh says:

    why do these con/chem trail form fake clouds? Uncinus you told me they never go past cirrus clouds..
    when they make these trails they combine then turn into rain..

  54. heh says:

    i think i read something about someone testing the rain after a day or two. The water had barium in it.. But supposedly not lethal. Ok well it rains every week.. Wouldnt that add up??!

  55. heh says:

    answer both questions please. You guys tend to ignore or work around questions A LOT

  56. michael says:

    exactly heh they just diversify the discussion..spread it out. No boys i do not carry huge telescopes with me.. i have a friend with one and he too needs a different lens to be able to focus on the planes. My camera IS high quality, but the x18 optical is just a little short… an add on lense may fix this. The video i previously linked was 100% not flying towards me i stood there for about ten minutes…. and your talking about the bottom of the trail being wider…Nope.. that is ANOTHER trail that was already there when i arrived…. different planes were simply flying along to the same place and making the ‘cloud’ bigger. Originally i thought they were forming a cross.. but the crossover flight was just a normal airliner and its trail dicipated…as normal contrail does.. the verticles DID NOT.
    Again… i do not care if its chemspray or just water vapour… its the fact is that such clouds are being CONSTRUCTED and its RESTRICTING our sunlight and hampering our weather. Even on nice days.. this is the thin layer they spraying… we get a MAX of 3 clear days.(excluding the mini heat wave last april i think it was!)

  57. GregOrca says:

    “i think i read something about someone testing the rain after a day or two. The water had barium in it..”

    Hi Heh.
    There’s a very good website called “contrailscience.com” It might be worth you visiting and reading through all of it’s different sections because it has articles like this: https://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

    No, contrail cirrus does not result in rain clouds, although they may be ABOVE rainclouds as rainclouds form. if you look up through one type of cloud it is hard to distinguish it from another type higher up.
    The sky has different layers of clouds. You might like to read a book on meteorology to understand it better.

  58. captfitch says:

    Yeah- It’s not an attempt to subvert. It’s just that all the info is here already. Takes alot of reading but anyone who is honostly interested in discovering the answers only has to look around.

  59. michael says:

    barium is sprayed by the military for communications purposes… barium ducting etc etc… when we get into chemicals we get into the secrets act.. and it all goes quiet and spindoctors send us links like the above to divert the argument. Chemicals in aircraft spray are VERY difficult to detect thats why they use and do it so freely. Then we get into scalar weaponry etc etc… all dodgy.. the phone hacking scandle was absolutely nothing.. only the tip of the iceberg regarding the way authorities do things they just dont like other people doing things! To be honest lots of what is done in secret is done in secret for GOOD REASON.. if the military have to use measures to protect us then there are no bounds, maybe rightfully so? BUT when it comes to AFFECTING OUR SKY, air, n water.. i think they have to be honest and make a public statement. Not send black ops helecopters to peoples houses to frighten them!

  60. Heh says:

    Greg they turn into rain clouds..this is exactly what I mean.. You completely ignored my question. Does it add up or not?! You expect people to believe you arent being payed yet you continue to ignore or go around questions. Not just you greg. Uncinus, jay, and others.

  61. Contrails CAN’T turn into rain clouds. They are too high. They form as ice crystals.

    You might see rain clouds form underneath contrails, but they are almost certainly not connected.

  62. michael says:

    if its water vapour.. course they can! They dont just form at certain altitudes! Natural clouds drift around and combine with whatevers there sometimes.. not always..
    look at the fallout on this trail… at first i didnt see… then i dismissed it as a lens error or imperfections .. then.. well .. come on it is what it is.. tiny shiny particles falling.

    But again im sure you and team orcojayunicuanus have a video explaining how it can appear that glitter is falling from the sky but its not really there?! Perhaps you should work for the conservative party and persuade people that the fuel prices are not going up again when they are… oh perhaps you already do?!

  63. MyMatesBrainwashed says:

    Trail fallout?

    That trail’s at least 5 miles away.

    If the particles are tiny, how have they dropped 5 miles without being effected by the wind?

    Nevermind the references to nano with no regard for what nano means.

  64. Noble says:

    The funny thing is…even on days with NO trails…If one aims their camera up into the sky…they will see the same exact thing…

    It’s always this way.

  65. JFDee says:


    Uncinus answered your question right away. He said “often humid air can precede a warm fron at high altitude, so you’ll see contrails first, then cirrus clouds, then lower clouds, then eventually rain”.

    If that is hard to imagine, have a look at this visualization of a warm front:

    There is also a picture of a cold front on that page. The point is that any front will bring up humid air in the upper “stories” of the atmosphere. The increasing contrail formation is the consequence, not the cause.


  66. michael says:

    i never made that vid.. but in defense of it.. that wouldnt of been the only spray.. and yes if its nano particles….. as small as they are its MILLIONS ANS MILLIONS of tiny paticles… invisible in the human eye.. but in falling they wold reflect light… that may show up on a camera filming 25 + frames per second.

  67. michael says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPWHSV1u6-A normal UV reflective spraying.

  68. captfitch says:

    So micheal- what would it take to change your position? Are you willing to change or are you beyond convincing?

  69. JFDee says:


    in the video you linked, right at the beginning, the false claim was made that “normal contrails disappear”. Also, how can the person who made the video see that the layer in the sky consist of “aluminum, probably barium”? Why can’t it be ice crystals? Where is the visual difference?

    It’s hard to take all these claims seriously. Do you ever ask yourself if the people in those videos know what they are talking about? Why would you believe them more than, say, people around here?

  70. Alexey says:

    Michael, nanoparticles wouldn’t reflect light, as they are much smaller than visible light wavelengths (from about 390 to 750 nm). In order to see them by eye or to take pictures by an ordinary camera, particles must be at least several microns in diameter (1 micron = 1000nm).

  71. Michael, I presume you the the “Michael” narrating the video. So why do you refer to the the contrails as “smoke”. You know it’s condensed water vapour right? Like a cloud?

    And why do you say that “aeroplane smoke always disappear”? Why do you think that is true? All the science books disagree with that.

  72. heh says:

    does the barium add up??

  73. heh says:

    JFdee on a CLEAR DAY they will start spraying over the city. Next think you know its raining.

  74. michael says:

    Unicus.. it was said as a figure of speech.. and you know why .. other normal passenger airliners were flying at all altitudes and not leaving persistent contrails.. because the atmospheric conditions were not suitable for persistent contrails! And even when the atmospheric conditions ARE perfect for contrail.. they generally dissipate within minutes.
    A couple of month back every single plane in the sky left a huge contrail that hung around! So either every single airplane was running on a fuel additive.. or we had perfect contrail conditions! Either could be true you certainly would not dare tell me about any fuel additives on here would you! Not only could that add fuel to ‘conspiracy theorist’ as you call them.. but it could cost you your job? Right? If not.. why not tell me a little about fuel additives?
    Yes… it appears as a smoke.. thats a descriptive word that i spoke.. not chose… i do not think carefully about every word i speak.. i was not trained or brought up middle/upper class.. my spoken vocab is often wrong.. i sometime prefer to type. The difference is.. this stuff came out different.. and expanded different to the contrails… even the persistant contrails we spoke about. As ive already explained.. one of the planes turned around sharply.. they were obviously filling in the blue gaps in the sky.. creating a reflective ‘film’
    As you quite rightly say i so not have evidence that it is barium strontium aluminium nanos.. all we have is the NUMEROUS suggestions and video clips from SCIENTISTS who discuss the spraying of metal particles as a measure to reduce the UV index. And of course many soil and water results which quite rightly to date remain questionable, i am indeed awaiting results.
    Captfitch… would i change my position? Absolutely. Every single aspect of chemspaying has been given a counter argument via your ‘contrail science’ videos. But i worked in a laboratory long enough to know that science is not about truth.. its about presenting the information your boss wants in an acceptable way. I believe this is what has been done by yourselves here. How could i be ‘converted’ or ‘dissuaded’.. well first up i would need to spend a day at my local militry base asking questions and examining planes. Then id like to have a similar visit to the airport.. take a look at the fueling systems and particularly the toilet waste systems. And finally during a spraying session i would need to be able to contact someone at short notice who would be able to take me up there in a plane and sample the air.
    I need to reaffirm.. im do not get kicks out of contacting RF bases or reading or watching chemtrail videos! Train spotters exist.. im not one of them.. plane spotters exist.. im not one of them. Im interested PURELY because im concerned. If there were no chemicals involved and i could prove it, oh yes my stance would be changed… BUT.. i would still need to make sure that there were measures put in place to MINIMISE persistant contrail whenever and wherever possible. And also make more piolots acountable and trackable.

    I could hire a private jet if i wished.. and assuming i got through the airport controls…. i could release any chemical i liked. I could fly to any place i like and as long as i dont get in the way of other aircraft or get reported by the public i could theoretically do what i want. This is wrong. Our airways are not playgrounds. Excluding the odd parachute or glider! It is not the same with road vehicles. I have to drive in a particular manner and be accountable. Pilots should be the same.. and they should ALL be trackable.. not just the ones with the tracking device fitted that you can see online. If i say someone is chemspraying over a city now.. someone somewhere should be able to log on and identify the aircraft involved immediately.. and arrange inspection. This is NOT the case. Myself and MANY others have made enquireys and got nowhere.

  75. michael says:

    heh.. where r u based? If its in USA the water companies fund spraying, well insurance companies do, they use silver iodide to seed rain. They have admitted it, although its not common knowlege.

  76. And even when the atmospheric conditions ARE perfect for contrail.. they generally dissipate within minutes.

    Michael, this is a very important point, explain why you think that is true.

  77. heh.. where r u based? If its in USA the water companies fund spraying, well insurance companies do, they use silver iodide to seed rain. They have admitted it, although its not common knowlege.

    Why do you think THAT is true? They put a small ad in the local paper every time they do it, and have done so since the 1950s.

    Check the date on this:

  78. michael says:

    that doesnt make it common knowlege! A tiny add in the paper! Many people i talk to have never heard of it. And why do i think that.. i dont think it i know it! I See it!

    They don’t want to draw big attention to it.. they just want to get on with it. Same as you guys. But whilst your blocking my sunlight me and many others see a problem! We deserve to be treat with a little integrity.. not these tactics! Arrange me the visits.. ill bring my cameras, a buddy if permissible or if not ill sign a secrecy agreement… whatever… but this situation needs dealing with.. more and more people are waking up to it.. we all want a peaceful society not one that mistrusts the government!
    If its being done for millitry defense purposes then an aware public is gonna be more understanding than a public that wakes up from a flouridated poisoned stupour! If its being done purely for weather mods.. and there really is a battle over water.. once again.. we need to be made aware. There ARE enough resources on this planet for all of the people.

  79. So you think they should put bigger ads in the paper? Put more info on their web sites? Have more TV shows about cloud seeding (there have been quite a few, and numerous stories in the media)


    I’m sure people are not aware of all kinds of things, but what more can you do?

    Anyway, more important:

    And even when the atmospheric conditions ARE perfect for contrail.. they generally dissipate within minutes.

    Michael, this is a very important point, explain why you think that is true.

  80. michael says:

    the cloud seeding is not so important n its the fact that our skies are being whitened and our sun is being filtered by aircraft contrail.
    In direct answer to your question … i remember seeing what ‘looked’ like chemspray.. grabbing my camera filming it.. and it dispersed very fast… within about 3 minutes.
    Either they have started pittling around with the dosage to spray more covertly… or more than likely.. it was a normal contrail. IT DID NOT EXPAND AND FORM A LAYER LIKE THOSE IN MY VIDEO. Therefore it was not the same stuff!

    Sleep time.. have you woken yet?

  81. That was just two different types of contrail. Like your car exhaust can either be visible or invisible, jet contrails can be invisible, short, persistent, or persistent and spreading.

    You just saw different kinds of contrail, like there are different kinds of cloud in the sky at the same time, because they are at different altitudes.

    All the science books say that contrails do this. They can quickly dissipate, they can persist, or they can persist, grow, and spread.

  82. michael says:

    even the -40 deg car clip you linked.. it looked nothing like the layers formed in my video. Because its not normal contrail.. oven if it was.. its still affecting the climate, and, if it were just water vapour, completely avoidable. Aparatus on the plane should tell the pilot weather the contrail would disperse quickly or not and a slight variation in flight path would eradicate the problem.
    But.. the pilots do not monitor this.. they fly where they are told to fly. They do not care that i am sunbathing below and that i have now got a little cold and had to put my t shirt on.
    They do not care that the sunflower that had just about got enough energy to open.. will have to wait until another day. They do not care about Mr Bloggs who invested £20k on solar panels but has had very little return doe to the lack of sunshine. Or Mrs smith who has had problems ripening her tomatos and had to carry plants round the other side of her house this year.
    Joe public says oh what a lovely day.. little do they realise that the UV index is reduced by 50% or more as a result of aircraft, nor that half of their health problems are caused by vitamin D deficiency. Nor that the government are paying people to hide the problem. This aint fantasy its stark reality for UK citizens and from what i’m hearing.. from people all around the world.

  83. They are still normal contrails though. The create visual pollution, but they are just condensed and frozen water.

    Vitamin D is causing very little in the way of health problems, and that’s mostly from people staying indoors too much.

  84. heh says:

    didnt know it would be this hard to get one of you guys to say yes or no to a simple question.. all i want to know is if it adds up(barium in the water).

  85. heh says:

    uncinus its almost like we’re indoors too much. i get one or two days of sun a week. Actually more like 8 or 9 hours.

  86. heh says:

    yeah Micheal im in the US unfortunately.

  87. captfitch says:

    Yes the Barium would add up. There you go. Why do you ask?

  88. GregOrca says:

    “that doesnt make it common knowlege! A tiny add in the paper! Many people i talk to have never heard of it. And why do i think that.. i dont think it i know it! I See it!”

    Michael, it IS common knowledge, just as the physics of how aircraft fly is common knowledge.
    Just because a subset of the population are often reluctant to pay attention to anything outside their narrow field of interest or ever visit a library does not mean things are deliberately hidden from the public.

    I’m sure if you talked to a bunch of gridiron players about astronomy, cosmic background radiation, yacht navigation, the large hadron Colider , you would likely draw a blank stare just as you may with your own circle of friends but that only tells us about the range of interest of your friends and footballers, not the general population.

    Ask a range of people what the capital city of Namibia or Bhutan or even Canada is.
    Are those a secret or just something you previously had no interest in?

    Whilst publishing information on meteorology or cloud seeding in a book or science journal and keeping those books and journals in public libraries is often an effective way of ensuring such information won’t ever be accessed by conspiracy theorists , it does NOT mean such information is not common knowledge.
    Cloud seeding stories in popular media such as science magazines available in any newsagent are very common but you actually have to read them. You will not find such stories in Ex Nihilo or sports illustrated. If you want to learn about such things on television you need to watch Discovery channel and not the sports or fashion channel.
    It is not the job of the nightly news to announce the fact that cloud seeding has been a common activity since the 1950s, nor to explain aviation physics, basic optics or high school physics to you.

    “And in breaking news we report that recently, over 60 years ago aviation physicists have worked out the principles of Ice formation in contrails behind aircraft at high altitude!, next up on CNN we report the astonishing discovery from 600+ years ago how sunlight shining through garden sprinklers produces a rainbow effect when viewed from a particular angle!”

    Explanatory films on cloud seeding are easily available and have been screened for many decades.
    Trigonometry and calculus have been taught in school for hundreds of years. Just because you may not know or heard of them would only indicate you didn’t pay attention, not that such things were kept hidden from you.

    Here is a publicly screened film on Cloud seeding from many decades ago, shown in cinemas, shown in schools and on television. It is hardly secret.:


    Here’s another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv7D_UCHasQ

    Here’s a TV advertisement from Thailand, championing the cloud seeding pioneered by the King of Thailand, which uses a two stage process using both silver iodide flares and bags of normal table salt dumped down shutes
    Ask any of the 61 million Thai people about royal rainmaking.
    They know about it.
    Why don’t you or your friends?

    Heh, “i think i read something about someone testing the rain after a day or two. The water had barium in it.. But supposedly not lethal. Ok well it rains every week.. Wouldnt that add up??!”

    What do you mean add up?
    The rain likely didn’t have barium in it or minute traces, the windblown DUST in the collecting containers left outdoors for two weeks in it did.
    Someone tested wind blown dust collected on the back of a pickup truck left outdoors for a very long time. Bill Nichols estimates about a MONTH.
    The truck was in a barium mining region where the mineral baryte is present in soil and so dust from the region naturally contains barium.
    If you leave a container outdoors in such a region it will collect barium containing dust blown by the wind, regardless if it rains or not.

    Your question was not ignored It was answered.
    But you actually have to READ the answer to learn anything.

    No-one has found high levels of barium, only natural normal levels of barium.
    No one is finding unusual levels of barium in people’s blood either. Only natural normal levels.
    Please don’t bother linking to a well known video that simply makes innaccurate claims.
    Again that just indicates a failure in fact checking.
    The claims about high levels of barium in blood is wrong.


    So to reiterate: When you stated that you read something about barium found in rain you are probably referring to a KSLA news report where Jeff Ferrel did not know how to do metric conversion and got his calculation wrong by a factor of 100 times. He found low natural levels of barium from wind blown dust from a barium mining region yet reported it to be 100 times higher in concentration than it really was, because he couldn’t do basic math. He could not “ADD UP” . He couldn’t even get simple multiplication right.
    Despite retracting his story and admitting his huge error, the story gets repeated as a meme by chemtrail believers who stubbornly refuse to fact check.
    The video widely distributed shows the actual lab results of 68.8ug/L for anyone to plainly see but chemtrail believers such as yourself ever seem to think to check the figures.
    If they did they would realise that the reading means 0.0688ppm, 30 times LOWER than the safe level of 2000ug/L

    Did you not check the figures yourself when you heard the story?

  89. GregOrca says:

    Initially I thought the containers were left outdoors for two weeks, but fact checking Bill Nichols comments reveals he estimates he left the containers outdoors for a MONTH to collect dust.

  90. MyMatesBrainwashed says:

    i never made that vid.. but in defense of it.. that wouldnt of been the only spray.. and yes if its nano particles….. as small as they are its MILLIONS ANS MILLIONS of tiny paticles… invisible in the human eye.. but in falling they wold reflect light… that may show up on a camera filming 25 + frames per second.

    You accept that the particles in that video have nothing to do with the trail, yet you pass that off by simply inventing some other spraying to have produced them. You have invented in your head some strange invisible light reflecting particles (please note how our eyes see) and some pretty weird speed of light rules.

    That suggests to me that you want these trails to be chemtrails. And there’s little point trying to hold a discussion with someone who can create their own physics on a whim.

  91. Demon Buster (Michael) says:

    You are like a team of lawyers in a court attacking Michael and anyone else who dares STAND UP FOR TRUTH. My sky was blue this morning…. along come a few planes.. its now white. Get a grip and be real. There is a problem and it wont go away until you change the flight paths or stop spraying.

  92. GregOrca says:

    “You are like a team of lawyers in a court attacking Michael and anyone else who dares STAND UP FOR TRUTH. My sky was blue this morning…. along come a few planes.. its now white. Get a grip and be real”

    We are being real. We can’t help it if you do not have detailed atmospheric science and aviation knowledge, but we can try to inform you on those subjects and that is what we are doing.

    Yes, we know planes can turn the sky to white overcast. Aviators have known that for over 70 years. People who don’t know much about aviation find it surprising, just as you probably find the fact that water vapor is invisible to be surprising, or the fact that wet air is lighter than dry air surprising.

    You’ve come to this site and brought that up as a topic as if it was a mystery.
    I’m wondering if you read carefully through all of this website.
    It explains that topic in detail.

    The section of this site on the left under “articles” contains detailed information about various topics related to trails in the sky.
    Its wise to read about a topic and understand it before arguing about it.

    In the 1940s, french aviator Antoine_de_Saint-Exupéry wrote a book “Flight to Arras” published in 1943.
    In it he wrote:

    ”The German on the ground knows us by the pearly white scarf which every plane flying at high altitude trails behind like a bridal veil. The disturbance created by our meteoric flight crystallizes the watery vapor in the atmosphere. We unwind behind us a cirrus of icicles. If the atmospheric conditions are favorable to the formation of clouds, our wake will thicken bit by bit and become an evening cloud over the countryside”.‬

    His sky was blue, he flew his little piston engined propellor plane and it became white as a result of NORMAL atmospheric physics.

    Aviators have known about this aspect of atmospheric science for over 70 years. It seems it is new and strange to you.
    It might be wise to start reading carefully and catch up on those 70 years.

  93. Noble says:

    “Demon Buster”


    Am I considered a “Demon” for understanding aviation/basic science. Or are the pilots who are leaving contrails considered “demons” for leaving contrails which abide by basic scientific/aviation principles?!

    When did I leave the real world and find myself in a world where “demons” are being “busted”?!

    “Chemtrails” are nothing more than a modern day witch-hunt…or demon hunt, as the case may be…

    It seems to me that there are many out there who are either unwilling, or unable, to separate raelity from fantasy.

    The trails in the sky are NORMAL.

    Even if “they” came out and admitted today that “they” are spraying chemicals into the air as part of some “global warming” abatement…that doesn’t mean that the trails we all see…have ANYTHING to do with that program!

    They are, and always will be…contrails.

  94. Some people, like (seemingly) Michael/”Demon Buster”/ihadaeureka, actually believe in Demons. This is related to a tendency to believe bunk and conspiracy theories in general, and gives Carl Sagan the title of his excellent book: The Demon Haunted World – Science as a Candle in the Dark.

  95. michael says:

    How can trails that change the environment and climate be normal? They are not normal.. and undoubtedly more persistand than before otherwise nasa would not of changed their cloud classification chart. They may be normal to your laws of physics or whatever you said… but its still mans impact on the environment.
    If it is as you say… the problem is avoidable.. by changing course slightly when planes detect such conditions.
    The fact that this has not/is not being done suggests one of the two possibilities

    1) The authorities have genuinely not realised the environmental impact or the need to monitor persistant contrail formation, and simply do not see a necessity to restrict persistant contrail
    2) The authorities are fully aware of the problem and frequently using fuel additives and spray planes for purposes they refuse to reveal to the public. You are here to conceal the matter.

  96. They are not natural, but they are normal in the sense that car exhaust, and factory emissions are normal.

    Jet engine exhaust is pollution. When it’s visible, then it’s visible pollution, and has a slight effect on the climate.

    It’s just one of MANY man-made effects on the climate, and it’s one of the smaller.

    and you should add:

    3) It’s just not a big enough problem for people to do anything about it.

  97. John says:


    I don’t understand how you can consider any of your generic copycat chemtrail-cult opinions to be even 1% valid, when you cant even grasp the difference between vertical & horizontal.

    The reason you are underpaid (which i’m guessing you are from you nonsensical rants about salaries), then i can assure you that it has nothing to do with chemtrails… It’s because you are just thick.

    EVERY SINGLE THING you mention about barium, aluminim, nwo blah blah blah is just bullshit which you have copied and pasted from another bullshitter… YOU know it is. WE know it is. EVERY1 knows it is.

    So maybe if you listened in school, you would be earning 200k (haha) like the rest of the pilots.
    And we could all stop wasting our time here trying to convince you chemtrail sheeple to stop being scared of your own shadow.

    On a serious note, what do you do for a living?
    Becuase i am willing to bet my MASSIVE salary that;
    You havent got a job, or a girlfriend. Just like 99% of the chemtrail community.

    Am i right, or am i right?

    What does that tell you about chemtrails?

  98. michael says:

    What i do for a living is absolutely none of your business…. i have not copied and pasted one iotre of text on any of my messages other than the video links, and unlike yourself i do not lie. I work harder than you for a living and possibly worked harder at school. People in working class backgrounds get SHITE teachers SHITE colleges and SHITE universities with SHITE lecturers. We are born with far less opportunities than yourself and usually die that way.
    Your mockery is absolutely wicked. You think if you do not understand something .. it must be wrong.I know those flight contrails were deliberately layed down its happened before and will again. My line on the use of chemicals remains as speculation other than the FACT that our militray spray Barium, i know this to be fact.. the other stuff is just what ive read online.
    What about flouride in tap water… can you give me ANY scientific reason for it being there? Any evidence that it enhances your health? Am i wrong when i say it is a by product of nuclear fuel and the government turn it into a product in order to dispose of it?
    As intelligent as some of you might be, as wealth as you may be, if you cannot see that we are all being lied to, even the wheat we eat is different to our grandparents.There exists a new world order… your either in it or out of it. Going by the stance you are taking here you are certainly in it, state puppets, or working for them, and have been programmed, like we all have to operate in different ways. Jesus Christ has the power to set you free from this curse.. which ultimately leads to death. See your either serving God or serving satan… one or the other, we all are. The spirit from which you speak, it sounds like the spirit of satan to me.. i can only suggest you repent. You may do well hurting and insulting others, maybe it makes you feel better to mock what you do not understand. But believe me that smile will be nocked off your face one day and if you dont have Jesus in your heart you will be jusdged and destroyed like the rest of them. Repent.

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