Some people think that persistent spreading contrails are somehow unusual, and are actually something dangerous being deliberately sprayed on the US people by the government, or perhaps for weather control purposes. They call these persistent contrails “chemtrails”.
Some of them are very insistent that this is a practically constant assault, saying the sky is never blue any more, and there are “chemtrails” constantly criss-crossing the sky.
I think this is simply a case of observer bias.
It’s easy to amass a large collection of photos of persistent contrails. I’ve got a lot myself, and I live in Los Angeles, where we don’t really get very many days when the conditions are right. All you have to do is only take photos on days when there are contrails persisting, and it will seem like there are “chemtrails” every day.
To get a real picture of what is going on, you need to take photos every day, and then see how many have persistent contrails in them. To be really accurate, you should take photos all across the country, and even across the globe, and see how many have contrails in them. What we need is a huge database of photos of the sky taken at random places and times.
Luckily, with the advent of digital photography, we have several such databases in the form of Flickr.com and picasaweb.google.com, and several other sites, which contain millions of photos that have at least some sky in them.
How many contain contrails (persistent or otherwise?) well, it turns out that practically none of them do.
Of course if you search for “contrail” or “chemtrail”, you’ll find a bunch. But that’s just you selecting them. How do we get random photos of the sky?
A good way it to search for things where the photographer is looking up. Like, “skyscraper“, “radio tower“, “kites“, or “skyline“. This gives you a very nice random sampling of millions of photos of the sky in all different weather condition, in all different locations, over the past decade or so. Some of these tend to have a narrow field of view, which you can expand with the keyword “fisheye”, like “fisheye sky“.
And what do we find? ALMOST NO CONTRAILS!!! I had to look at hundreds of photos before I finally found ONE that had a contrail in it. Even more rare was finding a photo with several persisting contrails, and I never found one with anything like a “grid”.
Several things can be deduced from this. Firstly contrails are actually pretty rare across the country. Of course this depends on where you live, but basically on average, there are not that many visible contrails in the sky.
Secondly, there’s still lots of clear blue sky and fluffy white clouds. All kinds of skies actually. Nothing has changed.
Thirdly, “chemtrail” theorists often say “why are there no photo of contrails before 1999/1990/1980/whenever”, seeing as they can’t find any in their family photo albums. The answer is of course that there ARE photos of contrails, all through the history of aviation. You don’t see them in the old photo albums for the same reason you don’t see them on Flickr.
You speak like a government stooge or an ignoramous. I live in london (UK) and we get these things practically everyday. who knows why or what they are but they are not normal – do your research.
gman, London is under a lot of flight paths – including those from Europe to North America, but also from Continental Europe to Northern England, Scotland and Ireland. So, you’ll get more contrails than a lot of places do, and also get the “grid” pattern where the paths cross. Regional air traffic has increased a lot in the past decade in Europe.
Since the planes fly over daily, you will indeed get contrails every day, lots of them. If the weather is right they will persist and sometimes even spread out to cover the sky. This is normal, and has been reported and photographed since the beginning of high altitude aviation in the 1940’s. See:
https://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
I am now building three large cloudbusters, using Willhelm Reich’s original plans. I built a mini test version earlier this year and tried it when the sky was full of “chemtrails” or “contrails” or whatever you call ’em. The sky cleared of trails pretty quickly. Within an hour or so beautiful white natural clouds started to form, and all the messy haze dissipated completely, leaving a natural deep blue color.
I am opposed to the trails primarily on aesthetic grounds. Our beautiful tremendous skies are sacred, and this desecration is simply not acceptable – regardless of the cause, the reason(s) or what you or anyone chooses to call them.
Anyway, if all goes well, I plan to commercially produce the cloudbusters, and will sell them at a reasonable price worldwide through a website. Once every city, town and village has one, this ugly phenomenon will be a thing of the past, and we can all enjoy once again the incredible beauty of earth’s natural skies, as God intended.
Creating positive orgone in any area will also help to eradicate any form of pollution, which is dependent on a matrix of negative energy (DOR).
Cleaning up the skies is going to be part of the wider and more extensive cleansing process which is necessary as we approach 2012. The Day of Purification is indeed fast approaching.
Jerry Montgomery
Jerry, I’m afraid I think “orgone” is nonsense.
You should do some proper scientific tests. What happened one day is simply observer bias.
Clouds are always forming, clearing, dispersing and changing. It’s the weather.
The people who put Wilhelm Reich in prison thought “Orgone” was nonsense too. Truth is, of course, they knew he was onto something major. That’s why they had to get rid of him, and why they destroyed his orgone accumulators and burned his books and papers. They got rid of him physically, but his spirit lives on, and will, of course, prevail, as will all things that are life-contributive.
“Orgone” is simply qi or chi as the Chinese understood it; as a practitioner of qi gong, I can assure you it is not nonsense.
If these trails are what you claim they are – merely contrails – then it is, I take it, a matter of utter indifference to you whether they appear in the sky or not, and that you will have no objection, therefore, to me clearing the skies of them, and encouraging other people to do likewise.
Perception is reality. But science is more objective.
In my reading of your page i find that you must be mildly uneducated and quite ingnorant of what is going on in our skies. Much more than just pictures are being taken. Samples of this chemical spray have been tested and linked to cases of Morgellons. Contraisl dissipate in mere seconds to barely a minute behind fast moving planes who are leaving vapor. The trails i snap pictures of and see almost EVERY day of the year hang in the sky for hours until they blow out of site. The trails make it all the way to the ground and can be seen almost until the point of touch down. Now you may say that I am looking for chemtrails in the sky, but the fact of the matter is, I cannot look up without seeing them and the persistence increases more and more with each passing day. Not to mention the increase in the amount of times my friends and family are getting sick. To see some pictures that i have taken please visit my site at http://www.myspace.com/indigochildren11 Look in the pics section. much <3
Joshua, you say: “Contraisl dissipate in mere seconds to barely a minute behind fast moving planes who are leaving vapor.“. Unfortunately that seems to be a common misunderstanding of contrails, since all sources agree that only SOME contrails do this. If the weather is right, they will persist and even spread out. See:
https://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
In particular the quote from the encyclopedia:
All the encyclopedias agree, and they always have. Contrails have always varied in how long they persist.
Well it seems like you’ve really stirred up the chemtrail folks. I can’t believe that they’re calling you “uneducated” when you’ve really done your homework and can actually point to facts when backing up your argument. I’d just like to chime in and say nice work. The problem is, these folks will always be around, when they give up on contrails, they’ll probably find government-built robo-mosquitos or something. Oh well, there’s my $.02
Uncinus the question I have for you is I understand why all the websites for chemtrails… if they exist it’s just bad. But why would somene make an extensive website like this one about contrails? I mean who would take the time and for what purpose?
Because it’s interesting. People blog about all kinds of things, and I like meteorology.
What’s really interesting is that nobody even questions any of the points I make here. inmate1943, besides being suspicious of my motives, is there anything actually WRONG here? Any facts I got wrong?
Excuse me, Uncinus.
inmate1943 said, “Uncinus the question I have for you is I understand why all the websites for chemtrails… if they exist it’s just bad.”
You muppet! The bigger mystery is why all the chemtrail sites? There are no “chemtrails”. They DON’T exist. Jet exhaust condensation DOES exist, and in many different forms. And that’s what this site is about. Get it?
Thanks Uncinus.
I have an open mind about Chemtrails/contrails/whatever and am sad to find your site doesn’t convince me. I wish someone would set my mind at ease about this by presenting clear evidence. Where I live, in the Pacific Northwest, they are NOT rare. They are here about 355 days out of the year. I am not in a major flight path. And I have grids here all summer long. It doesn’t make sense and you are very unconvincing. As for everyone being sick, it’s mostly from the garbage in our food, such as melamine, lead, hydrogenated fats and natural flavors. If they are poisoning us from the air, I’m sure it’s doing a good job of adding fuel to the fire. And Dude, do you really believe there aren’t people out to kill us? I can give you quotes all day long from the likes of Prince Andrew and his Above-Us-All ilk about how they need to eliminate 80 percent of the population and the sooner the better.
Cyber2ooth, I’d be interested to know more exactly where you live, as there are not that many places that get consistent grids. I have noticed that Southern Oregon seems to get a lot more persistent contrails than Los Angeles. I suspect they are more common in the North, due to the more frequent cold wet weather.
There is actually a lot of cross traffic in Washington State, so it’s kind of hard to say if you are in a major flight path or not. Certainly if you live anywhere within 100 miles of the coast, you will be overflow by a lot of north-south traffic. If you tell me the name of somewhere near you, I can tell you what flight paths cross nearby. Do you have any photos of the denser grids you’ve seen?
I live near Rockford, IL. I’m definitely not worried that I’m being poisoned, since I’ve spent most of my time outdoors breathing that air and I’m in great health, but I’d still like to solve this little mystery.
The small airport in Rockford doesn’t generate anywhere near the amount of air traffic we receive overhead. Now, one might say, “they’re flying to/from Chicago,” but that is where the real mystery begins, because the routes aren’t consistent with a commercial flight schedule. What I mean by that statement is that on some days there might be 20-30 planes leaving persistent contrails overhead, and then a few days with none at all. They usually leave parallel east/west lines and occasionally V’s or X’s, but in the 10 years I’ve been here I’ve never seen a grid.
Uncinus wrote, “If the weather is right, they will persist and even spread out.”
The persistent contrails in this area aren’t particular about the weather. I’m an avid hiker/cycler and whether it’s Spring, Summer, Fall, or Winter they’re here, and they persist for hours. In fact, in the last 5 years the only aircraft I’ve seen that don’t leave a persistent contrail, are those I’ve actually seen flying to and from the local airport.
Something else of interest is that you can sometimes hear the plane that’s leaving the persistent contrail. I live about 20 miles from the airstrip, so if the regular flights from the local airstrip could be heard I’d certainly know. Furthermore, any air traffic low enough to be heard that loudly shouldn’t be leaving a contrail, persistent or otherwise.
Paul, those are very astute observations, you’ve obviously put some thought into it, and I’ll try to address your questions.
It’s unlikely that the Chicago traffic has much to do with contrail formation over Rockford. Chicago is only 60 miles away, which is barely enough time for the big jets to get to altitude. No, the traffic you are seeing is flying between more distant airports. In your case it’s most likely traffic between Denver and the Detroit, New York and Boston area airports. As you noticed, most of the traffic is east-west. The reason you don’t get much north-south contrails is that there are very little to the north of you, which is why you do not get a grid.
Have a look at this diagram, made from FAA recordings of actual aircraft positions.
https://contrailscience.com/images/1_1024chicagodot.jpg
The red dot is you, the green dot is Denver, and the yellow dots are Boston and New York. You can also make out San Francisco and Los Angeles on the West coast. Hopefully you can see from this both the vast variety in air traffic routes, and also the way planes at altitude would be flying over your town. Looking at the map should also tell you regions of the country which are most likely to get the “grid” pattern.
Why some days and not others – the same commercial airlines fly overhead every day, at about the same time. Yes, it’s the weather. But not the weather on the ground. It’s the weather at 25,000 to 35,000 feet. See this link:
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=SPI&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
It’s the forecast at altitude for near you. It will vary, but when I just looked at it, at 30,000 feet the winds were 101 mph and the temperature was -49F. That is not at all unusual. The wind is usually around 100mph, and it’s usually very cold, even in summer. Think about it, the air at ground level is moving say 10 mph, but the air above is moving at 100 mph. Obviously the weather is going to be very different from the weather on the ground. The key is humidity – which as you can imagine, can change rapidly when the air mass as a whole is moving at 100 mph.
It’s not impossible you heard the plane making a contrail. It’s only six miles away (up) – so if you were away from the city, then that’s certainly possible. Jet engines are very loud – and you can imagine if there were no other noise, then it would be audible from six miles away. You could have also be hearing another plane you did not see (if it were lower, it would not be leaving a trail).
Uncinus, I appreciate that you took the time to reply, and made your points clearly and succinctly. Especially given some of the hostility I’ve seen from both sides of this discussion on some sites.
Uncinus linked:
https://contrailscience.com/images/1_1024chicagodot.jpg
I’m about 115 miles Northwest of the red dot. So, the image is a little too dense to see anything over my location. Where can I find a larger copy?
Uncinus linked:
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=SPI&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
I like it! I noticed their data originates with NOAA, and I use NOAA for all of my weather forecasts. I definitely need to dig deeper now that I know wind temperatures & speeds are available. I agree with almost all of the data you provided, except a couple of points that don’t fit what I’ve witnessed.
Uncinus wrote, “the same commercial airlines fly overhead every day, at about the same time.”
I should have explained more clearly in my original post. On days when aircraft fly overhead it’s at regular intervals. However, the air traffic doesn’t fit commercial air traffic on a day-to-day schedule. For example, on Monday and Tuesday you may see 20 aircraft at regular intervals, but on Wednesday and Thursday you see none. No contrails, but no aircraft, either. In this area you can see the aircraft just as well as the contrails. As I’ve frequently witnessed from my balcony. Meaning, I can clearly see the aircraft that’s leaving the contrail, not just the contrail. That actually brings another thought to mind. Why is it so difficult to see the actual aircraft in most of the videos, even when they zoom? Perhaps it’s the video quality, but I digress.
On Friday and Saturday you may see 20 aircraft, again, throughout the day. In fact, this happened frequently enough in the last year that I started questioning, which led me to search for an answer. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but given the amount of time I spend outdoors I have my doubts. I’ll begin keeping a log, so I can more accurately quote their schedule.
Uncinus wrote, “You could have also be hearing another plane you did not see (if it were lower, it would not be leaving a trail).”
The low fliers I’ve witnessed usually leave contrails. I’m not an expert in geometric distance, but in comparison to the usual air traffic, and contrails, they appear about 3 times closer than usual. I haven’t witnessed one in about 2 months, so it shouldn’t be long before another is spotted overhead. I’ll snap a few photos for the site the next time it occurs.
Thanks, again, Uncinus, for the informative reply.
Paul, I got that image from this site:
http://www.aaronkoblin.com/work/flightpatterns/
Which is more of an art site, but was the best I had to hand. But check here:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KORD
click on the map with the blue and green planes, and you’ll see traffic in the Chicago area, and I think you are in the top left of the map somewhere. In particular note the green planes, which are the overflying planes. There are two lines of text for each one, the first line is the flight number (or registration number for private planes), and the aircraft type. The second line is the altitude in 100s of feet and the speed in knots (1 knot = 1.15 mph). So 319^ 334 means 31,900 (ascending) and 334 knots (384 mph).
You will notice the green traffic is mostly east west. You can look up individual planes by their flight number on google. Like, right now I see FLG2958 heading your way at 32,000 feet. That’s a flight from Detroit to Cedar Rapids on a Canada Regional Jet.
As for why you see planes some days an not others. Really I suspect it’s just that when there are no contrails forming, then the planes are a lot harder to spot. A jet at 30,000+ feet is quite hard to see without a contrail. Look at the FlightAware map when you think there are no planes. They are still up there.
I live outside of NYC, and I see CHEMTRAILs every single day with little exception. I grew up here, and remember lying under a tree as a kid and looking at the puffy clouds. I only rarely saw contrails– (which was REALLY rare)– and they dissipated immediately. We never had the sky all marked up like we see today.
Recently, I was in a plane heading on vacation, while looking out the window, I saw a jet below us spewing brownish white stuff. It went on for miles and miles. Yet another jet was in the same airspace and there was nothing.
You can see chemtrails from a commercial jet– they look like long white clouds that go in a straight line with tufts on top– and they start to spread out.
You can try to debunk chemtrails, but they’re there… and they need to be stopped.
Hi Brad, what year would that have been in? Have you always lived in the same place?
The memory of childhood skies seems to be the most compelling evidence in favor of the “chemtrail” theory. It’s interesting. Were the skies actually different? Is there any significance to their memories? Could it be tested – ask people a neutral question about the occurrence of contrails?
Your opinions are hilarious… I mean, you’re a funny guy.
You crack me up kid.
I like you and your tunnel vision.
Keep your head up special Ed.
I’m looking out for you.
I’m glad I could brighten your day.
So there’s nothing specifically wrong with what I’m saying? You’d agree that the vast majority of casual photos do NOT show contrails/chemtrails, either now, or in the past?
dear god. if we were under mind control from the skies, why would they let us think about what are all these lines in the sky.
hell, if i were to deliberately poison my entire country i would do it in the food or water were its not sitting around for everyone to see for hours on end.
uncinus, im sorry you have to even disprove this nonsense
Unicus, I’ve found this all interesting. Someone identified a photo I had on Flickr as a ‘chemtrail’ I had never heard of that before. I found your site after a google search.
I have lots of photos of ‘contrails’ and clouds. I like taking pictures of clouds and I like the ‘contrails’ also. I live in the Atlanta metro area so I have lots of contrails and planes to photo.
I appreciate your calm and informative responses to all the ‘chemtrail’ folks here. It’s been very educational.
Uncinus:
United
Nations
Compatriot
Inside
U.S.
I suppose you are a “government employee”
My name, Uncinus, is taken from my favorite type of cloud, Cirrus Uncinus. These clouds form at the same altitude as contrails, and if you see them, then it’s a good indicator that persistent contrails might be forming.
WELL I THINK you are a government shill ,there are alot of you N.W.O. types out here now trying to make the “sheeple” think that what they are really seeing is not what is happening
i spent too many years in the military and spent alot of time flying to know the difference between a CLOUD/CONTRAIL and CHEMICAL SPRAY.
What do you think the difference is?
when i was a kid i could only make faces and animals out of the clouds
now i can play noughts and crosses!!
Hurrah
You know, you can only believe what you see with your own eyes. I see planes spraying, not leaving fuel trails, but thick heavy spraying. But never from commercial planes, they just seem to be unmarked planes. I have seen pictures of inside a chem plane and it has been modified for spraying. And signs that say Hazardous Chemicals above these massive multi tanks of Barium and Aluminum. of course you can say, that could be any military plane, or you’re paranoid. I could say encyclopedia brittanica is a government approved source of information. The internet is the last place where free speech exists, and a place where you can find out about anything. I really hope you are right Uncinus, and it is just harmless contrails, but my instinct and my intellect tell me different. I’m not debating whether you are right or wrong, i am just saying that every time i look up to the sky i see this smear of chemicals, and its addictive. I sit and watch five planes in one day spraying, then they turn the sprays off, and just like you get with any aerosol based spray, it sputters and leaves a wavy trail from the nozzles. Then i follow them as much as i can, and then it gets switched back on and the spraying continues and coincidentally enough, leaves all types of patterns in the skies, lots of crosses, lots of parallel lines, and they just sit their for hours on end, then expand into each other. And i cant see the blue sky anymore, and to me it seems that six days a week they spray heavily, then there is one day a week where they don’t spray, and guaranteed the next day, will have low lying fog just above you, and the most murky grey skies. Personally i believe that this is the drift over from other spraying regions. I took this picture last week, i looked out my kitchen window and it was like something out of lord of the rings, there where black chemtrails in this massive smear below the sun, and you could tell the difference between clouds, sky and chemicals. And i even took a picture……
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=983519&id=12282631069#pid=983522
peace people
Peggy your photo does not look like contrails. It just looks like clouds.
You mentioned trails going on and off. I’ve written about that a couple of times. The main explanations is here:
https://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
But I also discussed it in a more recent post, have a look at the satellite photos in the link below – you can see that the trails start as they enter a band of moist air, and then stop when they leave it.
https://contrailscience.com/contrails-above-and-below/
Believe me, i know the difference between clouds and what a plane has been spraying for days. Out my front door was a blue sky, then you follow it down and this thin grey smear, but this day the trails where black. Anyway. you say contrails, i say chemtrails..
by the way, check out Dr Deagle on youtube, he does some really good analysis of chemtrails and their purpose. Plus dude, planes dont have Barium and Aluminum in their fuel tanks do they?
Peggy, obviously you can SEE the difference between different types of contrail. The problem is in your explnation of the CAUSE of the difference.
All the supposed “chemtrails” that I’ve seen photos of look exactly like contrails. They look just like the contrail photos from 1969. They gbehave exactly as you would expect contrails to behave. Sometimes they spread out and cover they sky, exactly like contrails do, exactly as the science books have describe for the last 50 years.
What then is the difference you are seeing? Can you describe what is different from a contrail? Do you have a photo or a video?
Deagle simply repeats the bogus “analysis” that has been reported elsewhere. Human plasma in chemtrails? If there was analysis, there would be a lab report. There is no lab report.
Deagle seems to have unusual sources for his information.
http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.com/2008/02/dr_27.html
Ok, the difference between water vapor and Barium and Aluminum filled symmetrical lines, is that one is a contrail that naturally comes from planes. The other has many different kinds of chemicals in them, hence; Chemtrails.
But since they LOOK exactly the same, then how can YOU tell the difference?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xVt18U-qOq0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MVc9GX5K_As
Theres more and more of these
Yes there are alot of misleading videos on YouTube. The first one you link to shows NORMAL levels of Barium in water that someone collected in a bowl left outside on an old pickup truck for a month.
https://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/
The second one is about the use of chaff, and how it affects the weather radar. The word “chemtrail” in the english translation is a mistranslation, and should be “chaff”
There are also a lot of misleading PEOPLE on the internet..
Very true – which is why you need to use science to discern what is most likely to be correct.
i am curious. some one writing you a statement on here claimed to be in the military. said he knew what was actually going on. well i was also military. i have also had a passion for aviation since i was about 4. and i have some very old memories about long stretching contrails… i also remember hazy days that have had few flights. i also know the aircraft i was in charge of, even where i work now. and there are no chemical delivery systems. so i would like to know where that man served.
also. something i find very odd. people love to say that its only military.. or unmarked aircraft.. many airliners are very large. so they seem close. even when far away.. something like alsaka airlines and their smaller horizon airlines. are almost all white. it doesn’t take much distance to make such a paint job appear… unmarked.
i like this web site. very sound observation. study, and only fact. few opinions. few embellishes. just simple. well shown, flat fact
Gasoline is 4 dollars a gallon because of the spraying program. Thousands of jets over the usa 24/7, doing nothing but spraying chemtrails are using a gazillion gallons of fuel, and guess who is paying. Most of the illegal drug money in this country also pays for this. Do you dispute that there are specially outfitted crop duster type jets flying in close proximity making T’s and x’s and 4 across adjacent lines in the skies above America. These are not commercial flights. I called my local airport to report dangerously close flying jets and and the tower guy laughed and knew all about Govt. jets and chemtrails. Why dos’nt the media talk about it(gov. controlled), why has Calif. Gov. Arnold petitioned the black government on the subject? If this is for weather modification, communication, or defense why drop toxins. This is the NWO.
Cheech, the trails look just like regular jet trails that have been around for decades. They are commercial and private flights – just normal air traffic. Certainly not “crop dusters”. I’m afraid that if the tower guy was laughing, then he was probably laughing AT your theory. He’s heard about it because of all the crank calls the tower gets. The whole chemtrail thing is a hoax that took on a life of its own. There’s no evidence to back it up. Sorry.
I respect your opinion; however, why would”normal air traffic” make a concerted effort to fly back and forth and cover large areas of the sky with lines? Sometimes jets are 3 or 4 abreast. I remember when sonic booms were comonplace in the 50s and 60s,and I’ve seen contrails behind jets since then,but its been different in the last 8-10 years. Now the sky is covered in a purposeful manner,there is all day haze,reds,yellows and small random rainbows.Normal air traffic flies from point a to b in a straight line, and FAA rules forbid close proximity of jets.I live near an airport and ALL outgoing traffic is east to west (there is no incomming traffic),except for the jets spraying trails which travel in all directions.Regardless of what this phenomonom is the skies are being cleared up rapidly by cloudbusters and other natural devices. Anyone who feels there may be something to all this should sign the national petition that can be found by Googling chemtrail petition.
Cheech, the airways are very busy now. Many areas of the US have a considerable amount of flyover traffic. Say for example between California and the State of Washington. Much of that flies over the same area, so people in say, Medford OR, get a lot of contrails, even though they are not close to any major airports. In fact, you living near a airport has NOTHING to do with contrails, as those flights will be at too low an altitude to form them.
Or on the other coast, if you live in Connecticut, then you get all the flights from the states north and south of you passing over, as well as all the flights from the rest of the US to and from Europe. There are a LOT of flights.
Planes may LOOK like they are close together, but they will always maintain 1000 vertical feet of separation. That’s not a lot, so from the ground it looks like they are right next to each other (when they are at 32,000 and 33,000 feet, say).
Have a look at this map. It shows all the flights in the US in one day.
http://www.aaronkoblin.com/work/flightpatterns/
If you were to zoom in a take little segments from this map, then, yes, it would indeed look like a grid. But as you can see, it’s simply the normal air traffic between cities.
You also have to account for the wind here. Jets flying along the same route will not leave a contrail in the same place in the air volume as the previous jet. The wind at altitude is often over 100mph, so when the next jet comes along, then the previous contrail will have moved several miles. It LOOKS (from the ground) like the next jet is laying a different trail, to make a grid, but actually it’s just the wind. You can see this in time-lapse video of contrails forming, like this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yqh_03-TFNU
I think it’s a lousy argument to point out that there’s no chemtrails in photo’s on flickr and such. These are photograpers and are looking for the best shot. They are not going to shoot when when the sky is all filthy with stripes and crosses. They will wait till it’s a clear day, and no chemtrail spraying is scheduled 🙂 and than they’ll take their pics. So I believe that’s your main argument flying out the window!
While it’s true that there are some artistic photographers of flickr, the majority of the site is simply used for photo sharing of casual shots of vacations, trips, family gatherings, etc. Besides, people do take photos of contrails, as they make very pretty patterns sometimes, see:
http://flickr.com/search/?q=contrails
But I think you miss the point: the argument was not to show that there are no contrails NOW, as there obviously are. The argument was to show that they do not show up in casual photos, and hence you would not expect to find them in old photos.
People often say that because they cannot find old photos of persistent contrails in their childhood snapshots, then this proves that persistent contrails are a new thing. However, the relative lack of persistent contrails in modern casual photos proves this to be false.
Ok since you may have a point about that, I will ask you this: Why this website? What do you get out of this? What’s the purpose? Isn’t it much easier when you don’t believe these things to be true, to just ignore them?
What I didn’t make clear in my previous comment is that it’s not really a lousy argument, but more an irrelevant one. You don’t prove that chemtrails do or don’t exist by looking at some pictures. Especially not ones in which you can find no reference to their objectivity. Many of these photographs could be manipulated to give it a clearer nicer sky, I’ve done it numerous times myself. The fact is you don’t know the background of these pictures and you certainly shouldn’t reference them.
No, what you SHOULD do is investigate. If you want to debunk, than give me legit facts that these things aren’t real. Give me numbers, scientific research anything that proofs to me these are just ordinairy contrails. But government researcher aren’t keen on sharing any research with the public these days, unless it’s non-trivial. On the other hand we have indipendent researchers, which are more like you and me than these governmental type, who do share their findings and their research. They give you actual facts and on top of that they explain it in such a way that it’s understandible for non-scientists.
Look, if you realy want to debunk, try debunking the head independent researcher Clifford E. Carnicom. You can find all his research, findings and even emails that were sent to him by airline employees which claim they are part of operation Project Cloverleaf that is actually spraying chemicals on you, “for your own good.” If you want to debunk something then go to http://www.carnicom.com get his articles and give me reasonable proof that he’s wrong.
I write on this website because I’m interested in the subject. I’m a pilot, I find the weather interesting, and I find conspiracy theories interesting.
I can’t disprove the chemtrail theory. But that’s in the same way I can’t disprove the existence of aliens, or angels.
But what I CAN do is look at the evidence that people have put forward to support the chemtrail theory, and I can explain it using science and reason. I can explain the photos, I can explain the chemical test results, I can explain the videos and I can explain the persistent spreading contrails.
You ask me to give you evidence that contrail’s DON’T exist, but what I’ve done is explained all the evidence that suggests they DO exist. What are we left with then? No evidence?
If there’s no evidence that they exist, then why do I need to supply evidence that they don’t exist?
I’m debunking here, that means finding the things that are bunk, and exposing them.
Carnicom is not a very good scientist. If you would like to point me to the page on his web site that shows the strongest evidence for chemtrails, then I can attempt to explain it. But in the meantime, I explained one page earlier, here:
https://contrailscience.com/chemical-analysis-of-contrails/
And many other of his claims are discussed on this site, such as the dark lines:
https://contrailscience.com/contrails-dark-lines-chemtrails/
The various “chemtrail planes”
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/
HR 2977
https://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and-hr-2977/
Broken contrails
https://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
German government admits chemtrails:
https://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
Carnicom now seems obsessed with “Morgellons”, and has been taken in by quack doctors. See his: “Wine-Peroxide Test”
http://www.carnicom.com/morgobs7.htm
Mix wine, hydrogen peroxide, saliva, dental debris – swish it around your mouth for five minutes, and you are supposed to be surprised that you get a bunch of organic material. That’s a typical example of his procrustean science. No correlation is provided to anything, so his tests are entirely meaningless.
Anyway, what’s his best evidence?
Everything you see regarding “white lines in the sky” (or the absence of them) is explainable in terms of condensation (or not) of the water vapor in the jet exhaust gases in the temperature, humidity and wind conditions at the flight altitude. In the case of shadows, these can be explained in terms of the position of the sun in relation to the contrail and the observers view point.
Very little in rense, carnicom, educate-yourself, etc, has any basis in fact. It is, in the most part, wild and uninformed speculation, and only the gullible and equally uninformed give it any credence… all too readily, unfortunately and sadly.
Take Carnicom for instance. Look at this “research”: http://www.carnicom.com/corepulse.htm
Compare it with this:
“The Effects of Aircraft Wake Dynamics on Contrail Development” by D. C. Lewellen and W. S. Lewellen
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, West Virginia University, Morgantown, West Virginia. Journal Of The Atmospheric Sciences, Volume 58, 15 February 2001
Exactly the same features are described in this paper dated years earlier. The paper describes computer modeling of these things. That is how well they are understood. Sure the language is a bit difficult for those not familiar with it. Carnicom has no idea what he is talking about; fortunately perhaps his use of words makes that very clear.
I know it is a fallacious argument to put up a “straw man” and use it’s demolition to condemn the whole body of work. However, there are perfectly good explanations of everything observed of contrails, and there is no need for any speculation about “spraying”, fantastic weapons, and so on; none of which is supported by evidence or fact, or makes any sense.
This is a very important web site about this matter, and I salute Uncinus for his seemingly infinite patience and perseverance.
Morgellons is a weird disease though. But maybe your right. I’m still not sure on the subject. I just want be people to be a little more active in the world they live in. Most people have their daily routine and don’t even look up to the sky let alone think about it. They don’t question anything they just take in the crap mainstream media throws at em every night and move on.
I think there are some things in this world that go horribly wrong. There’s a large abuse of power which stretches out to every facet of our every day lifes. Even if it is just a theory, chemtrails do fit right into that pattern of abuse of power. See for instance this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
I must admit it would be very convinient if those chemtrails are real, because it would be much easier for us to make people aware of this abuse. It is something you can see happening every day and whatever it is, you can’t tell me it’s good for us right?
I don’t need you to argue if these people that have the power abuse it. Because that’s clear to me. I just wanted to tell you where I’m coming from. Chemtrails are a perfect fit.
And even though chemtrails may not be sprayed every day, the scientist that convince us of global warming do intend to use them in the future. If we don’t do anything these people ( http://www.enn.com/agriculture/article/36684 ) will spray us sooner or later
The “global dimming through sulphur” is just one of several radical ideas that various individuals have proposed. Professors are always coming up with “out-there” ideas – like terrforming Mars, or shooting radioactive waste into the sun. It does not mean that that’s the ONLY solution that has been proposed, or even that it’s got any kind of real support.
Since nobody knows the effect of putting millions of tons of sulphur into the atmosphere (it could trigger a new ice age, or have toxic effects), then it’s highly unlikely it would be done. It’s an irreversible experiment, and no real scientist would risk such a thing. If anything it’s there to scare people into looking more seriously at the other alternatives – like burning less carbon based fuels.
In the article linked, it’s all about the one scary alternative he mentions, but then in the last paragraph lists the more boring (yet realistic) alternatives presented by the same guy:
I’m not saying that it’s going to happen now or even in the next 10 years. What I do know is that our society is rapidly being dumbed down. People are not involved any more. Bad things are happening in higher levels of the ruling elite. And radical ideas are being pushed through all the time, such as global warming, taser use by police in America (in my country the Netherlands tasers have been labeled as lethal and the police cannot use them) and Carbon taxes.
There is probably even research going on at a dangerously high level, messing with nature, in research centre HAARPA. Now, I’m still researching this, but it seems they’ve found a way to make earthquakes or change the weather and they are using it without your conscent. See for yourself
http://www.sopn.nl/modules/news/article.php?storyid=45618
I’m sorry, but I just can’t take your word for it that these nutballs won’t do anything in the future that will jeopardize us. People may naturally good creatures, but there are a lot of bad apples among us. And it’s not just your average streetcriminal that form these bad apples, it goes higher up as well, I hope you won’t deny that.
What I’ve been taught is: “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire!” And I can give you a massive list of smokey subjects, of scientist who are performing risky experiments, from chemical human trials to messing with accelerating particles that could create black holes (media can shout all they want, that it’s save I won’t feel save untill I see the precautionary measures taken)
I’m sorry I’m veering off topic. All I’m trying to say is bad people can and will be in power and if we keep listening to the scientists that are being paid by these people and ignore the ones that are not than we will find out the truth when it’s too late. Maybe not everything in your skies are chemtrails, but what if some are?
It is somewhat off topic, but I also feel that this sense that the Government (or: the Elite) is involved in several global conspiracies is a motivating factory in the chemtrail circles.
Conspiracy theories are something I find interesting. But I look at them like this:
1) Is there any suggested evidence that a theory is true?
2) If so, then examine that evidence, generally the “evidence” is poor, or just plain wrong.
3) Is there anything else that would explain the theory?
In the case of “chemtrails”, for many aspects of it there is NO evidence (say, of planes being modified), and where there is proposed evidence, it is all fully explained on this site (let me know if I missed anything), and there IS something else that explains what people are seeing: namely, contrails.
I can understand fear or distrust of an unknown power. But the problem arises when the argument boils down to:
“Contrails MUST be true, because the elites are EVIL!”
Just because the Elites are evil, it does not follow that HAARP has found a way to make earthquakes. The colored clouds in China were just that: colored clouds in China. Not rainbows either, see here:
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/rainbows/notabow.htm
Most things about chemtrails are still theory, that’s true, but you make it sound like every conspiracy is a theory. Fortunately many facts about other conspiracies surrounding the Elite and American government have come up these past few years.
1) If there was evidence that a theory was true, it wouldn’t be a theory!
2) If you’re going to examine the evidence, you must keep an open mind and don’t just believe the government paid researchers on faith and take every research that’s done by independent researchers through a grinder.
3) There are always others ways to explain a theory, doesn’t make them more true than the theory itself.
There is always evidence for chemtrails. It’s just a matter of how you put that evidence to the test. I’ve read your tests about checking how many barium is in the rainwater. One of your main arguments is a local TV station getting it wrong, about the ppm of barium found. I don’t find that very convincing since most TV stations get it wrong all the time. Then you go on saying that the barium in that sample is not even close to reaching toxic levels. Well, I would hope not, or there would be many people dying in those villages right now. But even though it’s not reaching these toxic levels according to EPA, it doesn’t mean it’s good for your body. It still can have a effect in the long run (on your immune system for example).
I’ve looked up these EPA numbers and it says is the maximum level for the concentration in drinking water, I don’t see anything about constant exposure in the air you breath. In fact I read that that kind of exposure has a maximum level of 0.5 mg/m3. We have no way of confirming if that was the case over there but still…
There have been many reports by local MD’s that whenever there’s much contrail activity, there hospitals fill up with people who experience respiratory problems and such, just saying (maybe something you could discuss on your site 🙂 ).
I also really never said “Contrails MUST be true, because the elites are EVIL!” I just said it would fit. I also never said HAARP found a way to make earthquakes because the Elites are evil, which is a weird assumption. Again I just pointed out it would fit, dismissing it would be a case of poor judgment on my part.
In closing the colored clouds may be a natural phenomenon, but who can definitively tell me it is caused naturally this time. You must admit, for a natural event, it has extremely bad/good timing?
No true. In science everything is a theory. We just use the theory that fits the fact best. Usually there is only one theory that fits the facts, so we use that one. It’s still a theory, and often a better theory comes along that fits the facts better.
Take for example, Newtons theory of universal gravitation. For thousands of years, people thought the sun went around the earth, but then they figured it out, and thought the earth and the planets went around the sun in circles, but then they noticed it was ellipses, and a guy called Kepler came up with a theory to descibe this, which worked reasonably well, but not prefectly. But then Newton came along, and figured out a better theory that fit the facts more closely, and was very accurate, and could predict the motion of the planets very well.
But then a couple of hundred years later, along comes Einstein, with his general theory of relativity. This could be used to calculate the motion of the planets even more accurately than Newton. It was only a little bit more accurate, barely noticeable for stuff down on Earth. But it was still better for explaining movement in the universe at large.
All of these were theories with a LOT of evidence that they were correct. In fact, most of the time nobody thought there was anything wrong with them – they even called them “laws” at one time. Keplar’s Laws of Planetary motion – because they seemed so perfectly correct. But they were not. They were just theories that fit the observable facts.
That’s exactly what I’m trying to do here. Please continue to point out lapses in my grinding.
Explaining theories is not what I’m doing. I’m putting forward theories that explain the evidence. Example: one bit of evidence is that contrails sometimes persist for a long time. The chemtrailers have a theory that this means they are something different. My theory is that they are just normal contrails. To support their theory they say they don’t remember trails like that when they were young. To support my theory I post lots of newpaper articles, photographs and scientific papers that show that contrails have done this since 1921. So then which theory fits the facts: the “I don’t remember”, or “photographic and written evidence reaching back to 1921”.
They found 68ug/L, the limit is 2000ug/L. But that’s not a “toxic dose”, it’s not even considered harmful. It’s just a fairly arbitary limit the EPA set that they would like to keep the levels below. If drinking water had 1999ug/L, it would not be harmful.
Barium is found naturally in the environment at various levels throughout the world. It’s in the ground, it’s in the air, it’s in the water. People have been exposed to a low level of barium since the dawn of time, and in some places, they have been exposed to very high levels of barium. This has never caused any problems, and it has not changed.
There is no actual evidence here. Nobody has tested the air to show that barium levels have increased. If there is evidence that I’ve not addressed, then send me a link.
As for “There have been many reports by local MD’s that whenever there’s much contrail activity, there hospitals fill up with people who experience respiratory problems”. No, there are not. I don’t even need to explain this, because there ARE NO REPORTS! This is just a rumor that has been passed around the chemtrail community, and it’s based on claims by William Thomas from over 8 years ago:
See, it’s all William Thomas, and it’s all from nearly ten years ago. Find another source of this rumour – perhaps an actual emergency room doctor from THIS YEAR, and then that evidence might have some weight. See for yourself. It’s all William Thomas:
http://www.google.com/search?q=chemtrails+%22emergency+rooms%22
I was exaggerating. The point was that the evilness of the elites is used as supporting evidence. When in reality it’s not evidence for one thing or another. Perhaps a population cull FITs the evilness of the elites, but there’s no evidence that contrails are being used to cull population, so it’s entirely meaningless.
Not at all. China is a big country. The earthquake was felt over a million square miles (1/3 of the country). In a million square miles is it not likely that there would be an unusual looking cloud somewhere?
It’s been fun talking with you about this. This is going to be my last comment and I wanted to go a little off topic again :s
I just have one more question. Actually it’s a composed one.
What do you think about all the other theories and/or facts?
Like America being in a police state or going in that direction (I really need to hear from Americans that they are feeling like they’re in a police state, and if so or if not, why)?
Like everything surrounding 9/11?
Like the Bilderbergers or the Elites?
Like poisoning the water and food?
And like the devalueing the dollar via oil prices and such?
Thanks and good luck!
With all theories, I judge them by the evidence. Unfortunately different people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. Mostly because they have preconceived notions as to how the world works.
All the theories you mention (including chemtrails) have the same basic root: that there is a powerful elite that controls the world at the expense of the population.
Well, yes there is a powerful elite, they are called “the billionaires”. They control much of the worlds resources, and hence the population. The don’t share their wealth, and usually exploit the working classes in some way. Some of them do things that are illegal, or at least of rather dubious morality.
Nobody disputes this. There have always been powerful rich people and powerless poor people. The rich have always essentially exploited the poor. There’s no need for any conspiracy theory to explain it. That’s the way the world works.
The “Elite” are simply the rich people. They are rich because they have a lot of money which they use to make more money, using the labor markets of the poor people. That’s capitalism.
What do the rich want? They want to stay rich, and get richer. To do that they need a strong economy. Would any of the things you mention help the economy?
If you try hard enough, you can always find a specious motivation for something. But really, there’s no reason for the Elite to be doing any of the things you mention.
On your specific points:
Police state: civil liberties wax and wane. after 9/11 things were tightened up. They will be relaxed in time.
9/11: The 9/11 commission report is the theory that fits the facts the best.
Bilderbergers and Elites: see above, yes there are rich people.
Poisoning the water and food: No evidence.
Devalueing the dollar via oil prices: Global markets are complex and unpredicatable. Oil price is rising due to a drop is supply (likely a permanent drop).
Good luck to you too. Keep looking at the actual evidence!
wow so many in-learned ppl reply on here. uncinus u are doing a great job, u have good self control when it comes to answering them really stupid foolish questions, it must be hard not to laugh all the time. these ppl are so foolish to jump into a subject with no knowledge about it whatsoever and just claim they are ‘chemtrails’. like they think the weather is the same all they way up in the sky? +30 degrees in space? lol, keep up the good work! best chemtrail debunk site on the net!
I agree with the last guy. 🙂
It’s amazing how you keep your cool all the time, repeating and linking the same things over and over to people who take a look at one article, can’t counter and start to chatter on other ‘signs’. (which you always happened to have explained in a different post already)
“Perception is reality. But science is more objective.”
Hmm… ok.
Science itself is a social practice that can be obscured by preconceived notions made by the scientist. This is why the scientific community uses peer review in order to replicate and reproduce all studies to ensure that there is the least bias possible.
You will surely find that as time passes more and more scientists will be asking questions about the artificial cloud cover being created by contrails. You will find more and more doing “scientific” experiments to document the aerosols being used.
You will find more and more people looking up at the sky and asking questions, rather than closing their mind to the possibility of what is occurring.
I will question everything, and until I get satisfactory answers, I will not stop.
I would suggest everyone does the same.
ESPECIALLY, when governments have been EXPOSED in regards to performing covert experiments for decades since WWII and perhaps earlier.
Don’t be so quick to discount “crazy theories” because often there is some basis of truth in most of them.
By the way,
I see “chemtrails/contrails” in almost every photo of the sky lately! I sigh and am deeply saddened when I look on facebook and see people posting pictures of their trips and see the nasty fake sky. It’s extremely depressing. They are much more frequent now. I find it hard to believe that within the last few years air traffic would have increased to have this great impact. I’ve looked back in my photos and seen that same fake artificial sky since at least 2001. That was a frustrating realization. to be sure.
I thought people were actually flying LESS often.. hmm.
Often it is just the messy haze that the contrails form into. The fake artificial clouds, and you really would not be able to tell unless you’d watched the fake clouds form as I have every day for over a month now. Believe me, I will continue, every day. I will look up. I will continue to document until you “skeptics” open your eyes.
Let the USAF or NATO or whatever know that they’re doing a better job. The fake clouds look much better. The grid patterns were SO obvious, it’s good to see they’re adapting. Spraying outside the metro areas and early in the morning is totally working ! No one will notice now ! Please let them know that the SCALAR waves are still quite obvious!
Love that government of ours. They’re so fabulous. All concerned about us and such, no reason to question them at all. Nope, nope.
Sure, you will eventually find contrails in photos if you look long enough. The question being asked here is if there are statistically more contrails in the photos than you would expect.
Simply saying “they are more frequent now” is not a good observation. How much more frequent? More than you would expect with the increase in air traffic?
Is it at all possible that you are noticing more trails because you are super interested in the “chemtrail” theory? Most people do NOT notice them, but you do? Are you just more observant, or are you just more interesting in them – are you actually LOOKING for the photos with contrail in them?
Here’s some photos from 1912. Notice the sky is quite variable. Sometimes it’s hazy, sometimes it’s clear. If there were planes back then then sometimes there would be contrails.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/architecture.html
There is a very detailed report on this here:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm
There are lots of people working on how aviation induced cirrus affects the global climate.
However, “the aerosols being used” are just water and normal jet engine exhaust particulates. This is well understood, and accounts for the trails you are currently seeing (and have been seen since 1921). Read the report. There’s a lot of good science in it.
Academianon: “I will question everything, and until I get satisfactory answers, I will not stop.”
What is a satisfactory answer to you?
Is it a scientific source?
Is it a scientific explanation, explained over and over again?
Is it an explanation by people involved in aviation?
Is it …
a satsfactory answer for him is if it fits his theory (procrustean science) he doenst bother to research and understand the science. he mentioned grids. obviously he hasnt researched them and doesnt understand. he needs to start with the facts then apply them to a theory and see if it fits or not. the facts in contrails fit the science of contrails. contrails isnt a theory. there is no evidence or science of chemtrails. its all based on factual vison evidence. but thats not good because if facts were based on vision then right now i see the earth is flat and that the sun and universe orbits us every 24 hrs. hmmm???
I have posted here before and respect all opinions and observations of others, however I feel normal air traffic and persistent contrails are not the whole story. I have worked outside all of my life, I’m currently semi-retired and I’m on a rowboat 3x per week and have a 360 degree view of the sky for hours on end. I’m aware many observers have only small windows and short amounts of time to view the skies. The reservoir where I am located many hours a week is under the north to southeast approach to a medium sized suburban airport. Low flying,commercial jets stream in every 10-15 minutes, all traveling the same direction into the airport. The outgoing traffic from this facility is where my home is located and is not visable as it is 8-10 miles south. There is no other commercial or military air traffic in the vicinity. Where I’m observing the sky is 20-30 miles north of NYC, but not under any NYC airport air traffic. On most sunny days I see a concerted effort by high flying jets to cover the sky non-stop with white lines(contrails, chemtrails, take your pick) that hang around many hours and eventually spread into an all day haze. These high flying jets are going northeast-southwest, not towards the local airport, are sometimes 3-4 abreast, they make x’s and #’s and +’s, and usually stop when the sky is mostly covered. Then the haze moves off to the south and blankets one of the densest urban areas in the country,New York City. I realize there is alot of commercial air traffic these days but thats not the case where I live. Stopping global warming,communications,weapons,population modification or whatever this is a calculated ,expensive effort and more than normal air traffic. If the skeptics are forming thier rebuttals from porthole size windows near busy air routes I ask you to look skyward on your day off , look at any youtube chemtrail video, drive into the burbs or the country and observe your skies, try to see the 360 degrees of the picture!
Cheech, the traffic too and from your local airport is entirely irrelevant, as that traffic is too low to produce contrails.
What you are seeing is planes flying between airports hundreds and thousands of miles away, that happen to pass over where you are.
Cheech-
You say:
“There is no other commercial or military air traffic in the vicinity”
Are you sure?? At any given moment there can be as many as 6000 aircraft in the sky above North America…are you sure there are no other commercial aircraft overhead??
What about the Montreal to Miami route??
Or the Boston to Atlanta route?
Or London to San Francisco?
Or Vancouver to Paris?
…and on and on and on…
can you really say with certainty that those planes are not flying over you right now…??
What is certain is that those planes are there everyday. Some days they leave no trails…some days they leave trails that dissipate in a few minutes…and some days they leave trails that persist and spread out into sheets of cirrus clouds.
I would like the skeptics to please view the piasillo youtube video titled (chemtrail attack-the matrix is here) and explain it as normal air traffic. Piasillo lives in my area and also has several other chemtrail videos on youtube which show some heavy spraying.
The video shows normal air traffic on a day where the contrails persist. Most days you don’t see so many. He just took the videos on the days when there were the most persistent contrails.
This kind of thing has been observed for decades, and is perfectly ordinary. See:
https://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
Note the date, 1969.
Wow. Interesting how memes hit in clusters; this is the second time today I’ve randomly run across a reference to “Morgellons.” Can’t say I’m surprised there’s bleed-over between that camp and “chemtrail” alarmism.
I’m reminded of a line of dialog from an Anne Rice novel:
“Show me a person who has read hundreds of books and you give me an interesting companion. Show me one who has read two or three and you give me a dangerous enemy indeed.”
The Morgellons meme and the Chemtrails meme seem to have one interesting thing in common:
Hypochondria.
Dear Uncinus,
Please CLEARLY explain to me/us what it would take to convince you that chemtrails exist via a list of bullets and then hopefully the people who regularly visit this site (both pro and anti chemtrail) can either prove or disprove you.
By the way, this is a great site for one person to produce and to answer all those questions on all these threads on your own is an impressive feat! I don’t mean to pry but you must have a lot of time on your hands and I dare say a fair bit of disposable income.
Great site as it allows open debate to occur.
Looking forward to your bullets.
Cheers,
Nik
Nik, it really does not take much time. I write a short article maybe every two weeks on average, and answering questions only takes a few minutes a day – less total time than, say, watching American Idol. You don’t need a “fair bit of disposable income” to watch American Idol.
To be convinced that “chemtrails” exist, I’d like to see:
– a definition of the difference between a contrail and a chemtrail
– a method of demonstrating the difference between contrails and chemtrails
– several examples of this method in use, which clearly show there is a type of trail that cannot be explained by contrail science.
I can help you with points one and two but as for point three I think I would need some external help…Anyone?
1. Contrail = condensation or vapour trail as explained beautifully by you; Chemtrail = contrail + added chemicals or purely chemicals sprayed from modified aeroplanes (probably when a contrail would not necessarily exist i.e. incorrect temperature, humidity etc.)
2. Method for demonstrating this:- combined data from air traffic control regarding altitude of planes suspected of spraying chemtrails and data from weather stations in the particular area of suspected spraying. This would hopefully confirm whether it is even possible for contrails to have formed in the given environment. Alternatively (or in addition) collection/sampling of contrail/chemtrail as it leaves the vicinity of the aeroplane and forms trails. Additionally, access to and examination of a suspected chemtrail spraying aeroplane would also be extremely useful.
3. Although I am a man of great power, I could not coordinate this on my own – any takers to assist?
By the way, I remain open minded about many things in, on and around this great planet, and I am merely trying to look at a “scientific” way to prove or disprove this either way. I personally hope it is just contrails but my gut feeling tells me it is more. And before you say it, I know gut feelings are not scientific fact ;o) but I can’t help it!!
Cheers,
Nik
Okay, so based on the above, there is currently no evidence that chemtrails are any different to contrails?
So what would be the justification for performing those tests?
Eh? There may or may not be “evidence”. The above mentioned “experiment”, if we can really call it that at this stage would be a means to gain such hard evidence. It may not exist but heh, that is the idea of scientific experiments. If the scientists at CERN were so convinced of the Higgs boson then why spend billions on that little project?
The justification for performing these tests is obvious, to prove or disprove the theory (whether it be a conspiracy theory or not) of the existence of chemtrails.
But how do you choose which theories to test? There are an infinite number of theories.
Now, suppose I were to come up with a theory that the government was seeding plankton blooms for climate modification by adding huge iron dispensers to cruise ships. I give some photos of cruise ship wakes, and say I don’t remember them being so bubbly before.
So why would anyone believe this theory? Why give it any credence at all?
Why give “chemtrails” any credence? Why is that any different to my “cruisetrails” theory?
Nice theory. If you believe it enough and there are another few hundred thousand (maybe more) people that also believe in this theory then you should really go ahead and test it.
It will be interesting to see if a boat enthusiast sets up an all-singing all-dancing non-sponsored website to discredit it.
The reason we should give chemtrails credence is because so many people are noticing what they believe to be them. We are not talking about a few hundred people in a small cult here. This is hundreds of thousands of people all across the world noticing changes to the sky and the total silence by governments etc. doesn’t help.
So maybe a method like I proposed would help to clear things up either way.
Well, first I’ve got to get William Thomas and Art Bell to do a series of radio shows about it, and maybe link it to gastrointestinal illnesses that show up after eating fish. Then perhaps seed the idea on a few websites, and wait a few years.
You know when people started “looking up”? It was after the Art Bell show, which started internet discussions. People looked up, saw normal contrails that they had simply not paid much attention to before, and so it began.
See:
https://contrailscience.com/a-brief-history-of-chemtrails/
Here in Spain we are fighting them back with success. So just build some cloudbusters and position them. As you would do with a sculpture, or dedicating some of your time to plants on the terrace.
And enjoy normal weather.
Cloudbusters are just silly. If they worked, then there would not be a problem. Since there is a problem, they obviously don’t work.
I’m enjoying normal weather right now.
I see these only when they have so many planes criss crossing the skies from one area to another the cause light clouds to cover the sky. It doesnt take much thought to figure when they are doing this with some purpose and not mistaking it for any regular commercial planes. With a clear sky they start on one area and move gradually to blanket an area then move to cover more.
They may not contain chemicals…but water vapor.
So why can’t these be commercial planes?
The following was written in 1970:
https://contrailscience.com/files/1970-AMS-i1520-0469-27-6-937.pdf
How does that differ from what you are seeing now?
WOW are you kidding
just because u happen to take pictures on clear day doesnt mean anything
here i took these two days ago
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k254/ALEXOR123/SANY0206.jpg
an airport is not close to this are and these lines are only in this area…
you have lots of examples of
http://www.x-plane.com/adventures/CrossCountry/DSC01774.jpg
why would plane fly where theirs no airport near
and why would it fly over and over again?
how is that good for fuel effeiceincy?
Hi Alex, you are seeing regular passenger flights flying over where you live, they are going to airports hundreds of miles away, and to get there they have to fly over the places inbetween.
The Second photo you show is of barrels of water used for flight testing in differing weight configurations, and is explained here:
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/
Here’s a link to a weather service in California that shows where the chemtrail spraying will occur.
http://www.socalweather.org/ct.html
It amazing to see the same recycled WWII photo that is obviously doctored. Another fascinating aspect of this argument is that this website even exists. If Chemtrails don’t exist, then why have this website at all? Does anyone really care about contrails? Of course not. This website is orchestrated by people that want to silence the chemtrail debate. It would be like starting a website about smoke that comes from a lawnmower engines or something that ridiculous.
http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/military_weather.htm
Cop and paste this link.
Here a weather website that admitted that metal was being sprayed into our atmosphere.
The whole idea that someone would devote an entire website to contrail science is really quite hysterical.
The military is using all types of sprayers. Some are quite strange and are actually in the shape of a cube.
See this link.
http://www.orbwar.com/holographic-jet-orb-chemsprayer.htm
Most are KC-135 Supertankers. The spraying is a joint effort between Nato and the US. It’s going on all over the world.
Most sane people would ask themselves why they didn’t see total white out, grid spraying 10 plus years ago. Why do you wake up with a cloudless day and then see planes flying in grid patterns that eventually create a total white out. If they were normal contrails, the aerosol wouldn’t fall all the way to the ground.
I was driving through north florida a few months ago and they were spraying at fairly low altitudes with 10 plus planes going back and forth forming the grid. There wasn’t a major airport within 300 miles of that location.
Mike:
No thanks. It’s a spoof site.
It’s also amazing how many archives you will find it in all over the world from way back when the word “chemtrail” didn’t exist.
Yes, YOU do. But you keep calling them something else.
You’ll find a range of “sprayers” on this site, but you haven’t looked. have you?
A lot of sane people saw them fifty years ago.
The horizon seven miles up extends considerably beyond what you think it does. The stratosphere over your head also moves a lot faster than you think it does. This should (but probably won’t) give you pause to rethink.
I can’t remember a time when contrails provided so much fuel for controversy in a worldwide format.
When I think back 5 years ago and prior, I don’t recall hundreds of thousands of people saying “gee, it’s strange to see all these ‘normal’ contrails crisscrossing our skies every day.” It just didn’t happen. That simple fact alone, cannot be disputed that is something that requires our attention.
We may not be able to come to a scientific conclusion about “chemtrails” YET, but we can come to a logical conclusion.
People are not flying more often now, than before the economic instability hit us. This is fact, and can be concluded with a small amount of research. Hence, there should be no reason why there ARE more jet planes in the air unless they’re not civilian influenced.
One popular argument I see is that these crazy jet patterns in our skies have always been there, we just haven’t looked up. This statement insults my intelligence and the intelligence of the masses. If anything, we have more distractions today than we’ve ever had. If everything was normal, why is it that thousands of eyewitness testimonies are flowing from every corner of the globe. Are they all just coincidentally seeing more into this than they should? I would love to see the statistics on how this many people can be “misguided.”
Shouldn’t this change be at the heart of massive scientific scrutiny instead of trashy tabloid journalism and unsatisfying explanation sites like this?
It’s an interesting point, but hardly one deserving of “massive scientific scrutiny “. One might also ask why after the Roswell incident did people start noticing flying saucers a lot more? I suspect we might have different ideas there too.
More pertinently, since these “grids” are in plain sight, one might ask why hardly anyone has noticed them. If millions of people have not noticed them NOW, then why is it odd that you did not notice them five years ago?
Besides, people DID notice them, they even wondered what they were, and wrote to newspapers about them, even called the police about them. Just like now.
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-confusion-is-nothing-new/
1950 example:
I respectuflly differ with your comment of not deserving of scientific scrutiny. Who should decide what’s important enough to study? You? Me? The President? The Government? In my opinion, if there is a demand for further explanation of the subject, there should be a supply to satisfy that demand. From the amount of attention this issue is creating, I find it likely to conclude that it is, in fact, worthy of scientific scrutiny.
I can appreciate your attempt to relate contrails with UFOs as it is convenient to dismiss both subjects as “crazy conspiracy theories.” The fact of the matter is, there are likely many reason why the extra terrestrial subject has continued to pick up steam since the Roswell incident. For one, before Roswell, the US Government has never had such a large outcry over a weather balloon. Secondly, it’s no secret that on a large scale people are possessed by induced fear, and are usually unwilling to accept something that challenges their beliefs. Thankfully, due to and abundant supply of eye witness testimonies from professionals ranging from air traffic controllers and pilots to intelligence officers with their credentials to back them up, the “norm” has at long last shifted to belief in extra terrestrial presence. But I’m not here to discuss the reality of extra terrestrials.
As for your commentary regarding the lack of notice towards the “grids,” I’m not entirely sure how you can state that “hardly anybody has noticed them.” It’s a fair assumption that many people have noticed them, otherwise you and I would likely not be here discussing the matter. If you would like to get into the differences between reports of contrails 50 years ago, and what is coming in now, I think it goes without saying how diverse the differences are. All you need to do is take 100 random photographs of contrails from 50 years ago, and 100 random photographs of contrails today. A child could point out the dissimilarities.
We are discussing a theory that has got very little press, and that hardly anyone had heard of. Evidence? Just ask people on the street, like this guy did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wr5d2xBBtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O27PnTOf2Go
Note that nobody he talks to has noticed these trails.
So again, if 99% of the population has not noticed them yet, then why would you have noticed them ten years ago? Are you simply in the top 1% as far as observational skills go?
Of course, it’s not anything new. Just something you’ve not noticed before. Other people have, like in 1950
I wouldn’t speculate as to the percentage of the population that knows the differences between a normal contrail and an unnatural contrail. But I can agree with you that more people don’t know about them, or don’t care to know, than otherwise.
We’ll go with your extreme statistic of 99% though. Perhaps the 1% that has noticed the problem are the ones that aren’t busy watching news stations that are influenced by media conglomerates who aren’t covering the story as “fair and balanced” as they should be. Even so, it’s noticeably one sided – as most American propaganda is.
It’s not a challenge to poke holes in the reasons why most people don’t care about the issue. I’ve stated my thoughts, which is shared by more people than have the courage to speak about it, and I’ll end my input there.
Perhaps you could suggest a country that has better media coverage of “chemtrails”? Or is the conspiracy in every country in the world?
I laugh at both sides of this argument! You are all fools!
Uncinus I think you should refrain from the idea that you can explain anything aside from the principle idea’s here which are the contrail/chemtrail theory. To quote you….
“Well, yes there is a powerful elite, they are called “the billionaires”. They control much of the worlds resources, and hence the population. The don’t share their wealth, and usually exploit the working classes in some way. Some of them do things that are illegal, or at least of rather dubious morality.”
I think you miss the point which is why you may be off the mark on some of your perceptions. To the elite It is not about money and definitly not about laws that do not apply to them! It is almost never about getting richer! It is however about power and control which is the root of the conspiracy tool in itself. Those who understand this principle are those who have no use for money or laws.
To quote the great Orwell
“The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives.”
Uncinus you use Socratic methods to get people to hang themselves on their own ignorance and I commend you on that. However there are two sides to every story. One is right and one is wrong but the middle is always evil! Ask yourself who is in the middle on this one?
I would say that from an objective stand point it is clear to me what is happening here. Contrails may well be the reality while Chemtrails are the planted objectionable seeds of fear. It is designed to ignite furious debate between fools and self rightous fools! Those in the middle (elite) who are grounded in reality see the usefulness of both sides in this constant arguing about conspiracy. It is a wonderful tool that keeps the ignorant masses in a non-objective reality. They play both sides off of one another.
Who do you think posted the first Chemtrail videos? I think you better think long and hard about that.
So to the Chemtrailer’s you are likely wrong on all fronts with your pseudoscience! To the Contrailer’s you are intended tools of trade with your actual science! Both are used to create a divide on a subject that has no valid purpose what so ever. Maybe we could debate the pollution aspect but none of you are actually worried about that it would seem – take away conspiracy and you have a pretty boring subject. Uncinus who cares if you are right and Chemtrails are fake? You could be debunking trivial subjects like the flat earth or chemtrails all day long as long as the end result is everyone is off the scent of the real issues. So you actually are an unintended shill Uncinus because you debate with these morons constantly like water on a water mill. If you were to stop being the opposition to this subject the theory would have no reason to debate itself constantly. You (Uncinus) are the water and they (conspiracy theorists/Alex Jones sheep) are the mill! The product is control and if just one side of this argument would cease in it’s contribution the control could be minimalized just slightly and the mill would be useless. None of you seem to understand how this stuff works though. Chemtrailer’s saw it on youtube and took the bait! Contrailer’s understand contrails so they assert their inflated sense of righteousness constantly! You flaunt it!
Either way you are all locked in the same box so what is the point of it all? I guarantee you there is a conspiracy but this is not it!
End of story! You all fail for your part in it!
So, you agree that I’m right – “chemtrails” are just normal persistent contrails. However, you feel I’m wasting my time as the “real” conspiracy is that rich people are subjugating the poor people (or powerful people are subjugating the weak)?
You really think the “elite” created the chemtrail theory? You think they really had to? You think it would make one iota of difference? You don’t think such theories can arise spontaneously – like the chupacabra?
Yeah, did they? 🙂
Distraction matters!
In general they achieve many of their goals with calculated methods and sciences.
It is accomplished by
o disengaging their minds; sabotaging their mental activities; providing a low-quality program of public education in mathematics, logic, systemsdesign and economics; and discouraging technical creativity.
o engaging their emotions, increasing their self-indulgence and their indulgence in emotional and physical activities, by: unrelenting emotional affrontations and attacks (mental and emotional rape) by way of constant barrage of sex, violence, and wars in the media – especially the T.V. and the newspapers (internet). giving them what they desire – in excess – “junk food for thought” -and depriving them of what they really need.
o rewriting history and law and subjecting the public to the deviant creation,thus being able to shift their thinking from personal needs to highly fabricated outside priorities.
You don’t have to agree to make it so Uncinus!
Anyway I am not trying to disprove your theories because I believe them to be correct for the most part. I am however questioning the company you choose to keep on these boards given their low grade animalisim! That is all!