Do contrails sometimes persist and spread out?
Yes, see the Encyclopædia Britannica article on vapour trails (contrails):
Contrail, streamer of cloud sometimes observed behind an airplane flying in clear, cold, humid air. It forms upon condensation of the water vapour produced by the combustion of fuel in the airplane engines. When the ambient relative humidity is high, the resulting ice-crystal plume may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.
vapour trail. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica.Retrieved May 4, 2007,from Encyclopædia Britannica Online:
(The above quote is from the current EB. However, a Google books search dates the inclusion on the EB back to 1983)
Also see “A Field Guide to the Atmosphere“, by Schaefer and Day, 1981:
“Sometimes [contrails] are ephemeral and dissipate as quickly as they form; other times they persist and grow wide enough to cover a substantial portion of the sky with a sheet of cirrostratus“ (Page 137)
Are spreading contrails a relatively new thing?
No, it has been exactly the same for decades, the only change has been the size of jet engines (producing bigger contrails), engine technology (burning fuel more efficiently in high bypass jet engines creates cooler exhaust which is more likely to condense before it mixes with the surrounding air) and the amount of air traffic (producing more contrails). Spreading contrails have been mentioned consistently through the history of aviation, including in the popular press. Like Sports Illustrated , Nov 6th 1989:
Now, late in the afternoon, the hatchery explored and the fishing over for the day, Crooks points to the sky. Blue all day, it has now turned hazy. “Contrails,” he says. “The haze is caused by aircraft contrails that have gotten spread out till they cover the sky. This is a major air route from the East Coast to the West.”
For scientific discussion, see, for example, all these articles on contrails. In particular the one from 1970 titled “Airborne Observations of Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget”
The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
[….]
Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.
Airborne Observations of Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget
Peter M. Kuhn
Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
Volume 27, Issue 6 (September 1970) pp. 937–942
(Click on any of the images in this article for a larger view)
Then a few years later, in 1975, we have the article : Multiple Contrail Streamers Observed by Radar, which again has photos (taken in 1971) of spreading and persisting contrails, as well as extensive discussion of these observations.
Multiple Contrail Streamers Observed by Radar.
Konrad TG, Howard JC (1974)
Journal of Applied Meteorology:
Vol. 13, No. 5 pp. 563–572
Here’s a description from 1970, from a local newspaper, the Arcadia Tribune, April 29, 1970:
Aircraft contrails begin to streak the normally bright Arizona sky at dawn. Through the day, as air traffic peaks, these contrails gradually merge into and almost solid interlaced sheet of cirrus cloud – an artificial cirrus cloud that is frequently as much as 500 meters deep.
One of the earliest reference to contrails covering the sky is from the Mansfield News Journal, August 11, 1957, Page 29:
“Within the past few years, the weather bureau has begun to report the trails as actual cloud layers when there are sufficient trails to cover a portion of the sky.”
Here’s a description from 1955:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SosSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pvYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=851,1486793
An extremely persistent con trail might stay in the sky all day
But even earlier, and with a perfect description of what “chemtrail” theorist claim cannot happen comes this account from 1944:
The News, Frederick, MD, March 7, 1944
“Contrails frequently have a tendency to cause a complete overcast and cause rain. In Idaho I have seen contrails formed in a perfectly clear sky and four hours later a complete overcast resulted“
Below is the entire top of the page of that newspaper, in case you want to look it up.
And from the book “Flight To Arras” by Antoine de Saint Exupery, written in 1942 about a military mission in 1940:
The German on the ground knows us by the pearly white scarf which every plane flying at high altitude trails behind like a bridal veil. The disturbance created by our meteoric flight crystallizes the watery vapor in the atmosphere. We unwind behind us a cirrus of icicles. If the atmospheric conditions are favorable to the formation of clouds, our wake will thicken bit by bit and become an evening cloud over the countryside.
Another from 1958
Today I observed both lingering and dissipating contrails at the same time and apparently similar altitudes. How does this happen?
See here:
https://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
Most likely they were not actually at the same hight. They just appeared to be.
[comment deleted for violating politeness policy]
https://contrailscience.com/politeness-policy/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRN0GDFH3Vs
@LazyJones1 point me to this Website for Answers about “Chemtrails”
First of all, i am not that good in english, i try my best to state my points on the Topic Chemtrails / Contrails.
I have seen a lot of comments from Uncinus here, but i am still not confinced that chemtrails are normal contrails (water) I also didnt find Answers about following questions, maybe there are somwhere already, but this side grows to a huge wiki like book:
Why does this “contrails” sometimes have a break? sometimes a few breaks.
see for example picture above entry 569
Why are this contrails not forbidden or engineered out to avoid this very disturbing trails?
Why are at the same day and time airplanes doing this and other planes totaly not? This altitute and pressure does not confince me, the planes i watched are on different altitute, some higher, some lower with controverse trails.
Why are governments not take attention to the public sorrows or behavors and the mainstream media black it out?
On some pictures, we can see contrails from weather satelite! continental at least country wide covering are buildet sometimes from “contrails”. “contrails” have for sure a lot influence in our system and weather and on top of that, it has for sure also some influence to our live on earth. So its not our duty, its the duty from our government we pay taxes for security and clear information to the public. Why do i not feel this from our governments?
If this chemtrails are just water, then they are a good tool for disturbing and make ppl disleading to look like conspiracy theorist. From that, the doors are open for anything else, nobody will take attention to this anymore.
I thank a lot to the owner that set this page up.
It helps to find out, do i see it wrong, or not. thanks for any response.
At least i give credits to this side from my page.
Today it was a lucky day, clear sky and after long break from trailing, today it just startet again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4U86XghFPs
So i run from my walk with my dog home, take the cam and did this record which states the Question. Why are some Trails in the sky and some not. The Video shows at least one plane that didnt make this trails at the same spot.
Different planes, power settings, or altitudes. See:
https://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
I can address some of Patrick’s questions:
“Why are this contrails not forbidden or engineered out to avoid this very disturbing trails?”
Aircraft could fly lower or higher to avoid contrails – however they are already normaly flying as high as they can, or are allowed to by Air Trafic control – and flying lower costs more fuel for jets, so they try to avoid it.
there is no difference in the chemical output of a jet engine for having a visible contrail or not, so there is no direct element of pollution that changes – so the cost factor is the main driver.
“Why are at the same day and time airplanes doing this and other planes totaly not? This altitute and pressure does not confince me, the planes i watched are on different altitute, some higher, some lower with controverse trails.”
It is temperature and humidity that matter – not altitude and pressure.
“Why are governments not take attention to the public sorrows or behavors and the mainstream media black it out?”
I am not aware of any blackout – contrails sometimes get reported in the main media here, and the govenrments all around the world HAVE accurately commented on public concern by saying that the trails are contrails, and are water vapour and not a great concern.
It is not the government or media fault that people continue to beleive the disinfgormation of the “chemtrail” hoax.
Thanks much for your Answers
Here are some evidence, that we all get Lied and cheatet from our Governments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TWo-OuVgXU
This Video shows on a scientistic base that chemtrails real and used as a plasma mirror for HAARP The actions are last few days going on to protect against EMC from our Sun from strong Sunflares.
M 9.3 Solar Flare That Picked Up 2 Already Inbound and Slamming The Earth !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPFjlnaF1w
100% PROOF OF HAARP!! 2011 HAARP in ACTION!! DEBUNK THIS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZYMCE3qbrE
In my Opinion, this are the Dots between Chemtrails, HAARP, Earhquakes and the cheat of denie with contrails lies. Weather control is with those Videos and statements a ongoing fact.
What’s the connection here with chemtrails/contrails?
In the last video, it just shows some clouds. Why do you think it looks odd? Why is it impossible for a regions of air to have a fairly straight edge?
Contrails are from common Airplanes and here used to mask and denie real chemtrails. Thats the only connection between those two words.
I mean what’s the evidence linking HAARP with contrails or chemtrails?
And again, what’s so impossible about those clouds? You know similar formations (while unusual) have been photographed for 100 years. See:
https://contrailscience.com/clouds-before-planes-cloud-studies-1905/
Pilot Films Plane Spraying Chemtrails
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q28dQaaLQGQ
CHEM TRAILS PLANE SPRAYING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzc60zl70Gk
Monster Chem Plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chlr_W2DjYw
Chemtrails are done for weather modification as a plasma mirror. Its a huge business for food companys which are on the way to destroy the small food enconomy. In USA there are this week some raids ongoing which takes out small food company out of business, guess why:
Mike Adams Covers Outrageous Raid on Raw Foods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x7qXP7rt7w
The big business with Oil is soon out and will not dominate anymore, this is s why there will be implementet a new way of human domination. Weather control and of course the control of the food. Soon you have to buy rain, if you have the money for and play the game some like, no proplem. The dots between Chemtrails and HAARP are actually hidden. Of course, ppl want like it to get dominatet that way.
This is going further. A very good example is Gaddafi that has foundet the bigest man made river. This is done with a undeground Waterreservoir. This Reservoir is that huge, that it can serve about 200 years the country in Libya with water. Further, gaddafi was not going into a dept for making this project real. He was independend from any other country or Banks and of top of that, he planed two further things. Deliver Europe with food and create a new Africa currency, the gold dinnar.
This is why Libya, civilians, hospitlas, university, children, food stores and infrastructure get bombed since 4 months from the NATO. They wana implement their own politicans for taking over the market.
This is like a cancer that grows over everything, so called NWO.
God bless you.
I’m afraid you’ve been conned. Those are not videos of “chemtrails”, see, for example, the first one explained here:
https://contrailscience.com/fake-hoax-chemtrail-videos/
Rawsome food is just half a mile from my house. It’s got nothing to do with chemtrails. They were raided because they were selling food out the back of a van without any kind of business license.
Selling raw food is perfectly legal here, selling stuff out the back of a van without a license is not.
I feel sorry for you patrick. Do believe everything you see on youtube? Is everything factual there?
You dont have to feel sorry to me my friends 🙂
I know there is something very wrong in our air. If there are Videos on Youtube that are fakes, it is not my fault if i point to them and thats the good thing of this page here which i support totaly. Debunk the liers!
I found another one you can trie debunk:
“Geoengineering/Chemtrail Complaint Presented to Alachua County Committee, Harold Saive Bob Tuskin ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrs8SpjQ8PU
No we don’t have to feel sorry for you – but I choose to because of how you have been conned, and all that passion for something completely useless.
Take for example your link to:
“Monster Chem Plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chlr_W2DjYw”
the poster himself says it is not a “chem plane” – why do you think it is??
He thinks it’s a monster chem plane because there are generally very few four engine aircraft flying overhead anymore. And I would say that over the majority of the US it’s very rare to see one. Everybody switched to two engine 76s, 75s etc.
So when a 74 or a 340 or a even when an old 8 flies over it looks different.
Patrick, wie viele Videos müssen Dir denn erklärt werden, bis Du anfängst, Dein Dogma zu hinterfragen?
Wenn Du glaubst, daß etwas mit der Luft nicht stimme, es aber offensichtlich Chemtrails nicht sein können, weil sie so schlicht nicht existieren, wie vorgestellt werden (langlebige Kondensstreifen, s. Kachelmann), wann versuchst Du Dir endlich klar darüber zu werden, was genau Du mit “etwas ist nicht richtig” meinst. Das heißt: Du schreibst Dir genau auf, was Du über den Zustand der Luft denkst. Der nächste Schritt wäre dann, jede dieser Annahmen einer kritischen Prüfung zu unterziehen. Wenn sie nicht stimmen, wie z.B. die Chemtrailannahme, sollte man sie nicht mehr vorbringen. Sollten dann Punkte überbleiben, hast Du sie zumindest einmal vernünftig ausformuliert und belegt. Das ist aber Arbeit, die Du Dir machen solltest. Es kann aber auch rauskommen, daß an Deinen Annahmen nicht viel dran ist. Dann bleibt aber immer noch etwas zu tun: Umweltverschmutzung zum Beispiel. Dinge, die tatsächlich in unserem täglichen Leben Relevanz haben und dort auch angegangen werden können.
Gruß,
Strawman
PS: Sorry, this is in German, Patrick is obviously German. I hope he will attest to there being no rude comments, no swear words and no bad names given. I basically ask him to formulate on paper his notion that something is wrong with the air and examine each point critically.
Great work and great site.
Of course you will not educate the religious; and conspiracy is a religion.
Just like their gods, their conspiracies only accept reinforcement and reject any refutaion.
It is obvious when they bring in the nonsense on HAARP and then NWO [oh dear!]
You are dealing with people who think that Youtube is a reference library and have no understanding that there is nothing new in the world of conspiracy.
Of course they wont do the research because their ‘investigation’ stops at the point they find something to reinforce their worldview.
You can lead a horse to water – but he’ll probably ask you to change it into wine.
So where is the disinfo then? You actually believe that evil nasty government who is actively spraying you when they admit to Chemtrails? Sounds like YOU should be the one who believes that anything THEY say about the matter is a lie.
Here another Report for debunking
“Government admits secretly spraying poison on us also admit secret tests hundreds of times”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZ-1ZqlbDs
Now you have to debunk the US Government.
Good luck
That particular video was debunked here:
https://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/
The government has NOT admitted to secretly spraying poison on us. They have admitted to doing a variety of dispersion tests (seeing how far stuff travels) for which they used substances they thought were harmless.
All comments are interesting. However I find it also interesing that Uncinus is an expert to answer so many questions. He knows science, aviation and even law. I just will keep reading.
I know science through my education and a personal interest in science reading (Sagan, Dawkins, etc). For aviation, I have a solo student pilot certification, so I know how to fly, and about flying weather. For law I have no education, just Google, and the usual life experience that comes with age.
Mostly though, I know Google 🙂
Marcello, I hope that you do notice that there are other commenters hanging around here who share an affinity to flying, airplane technology and meteorology. Some of them are real professionals, others are hobby pilots or airplane buffs.
A lot of the basic knowledge about “science, aviation and even law” is required to achieve a private pilot’s licence; it is taught in training courses to prepare for the theoretical exams. Even if you might speculate that commenters supporting Uncinus’ efforts are all socket puppets, this fact is standing.
Ask any pilot.
Furthermore, the process of debunking involves acquiring of knowledge.
If you are trying to get to the bottom of statements and claims, you can’t help learning things along the way.
Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I enjoy debunking. I like the detective work, but I also enjoy learning new things.
After spending some time on a topic, the same questions keep coming up over and over. I think that kind of gives the illusion that I have a suspicious number of facts at my fingertips, when really it’s just the 10th time someone has brought up HR2977, or the KC10 video, or the KSLA Barium tests, etc.
Chemtrails: Jetzt informiert die Bundesregierung:
http://sommerzeitlose.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/die-bundesregierung-informiert-die-burgerinnen-und-burger-uber-chemtrails/
http://www.bmbf.de/pubRD/infographik_climate_engineering.pdf
http://www.bmbf.de/de/8493.php
Ich denke, damit könnt ihr die Aktion hier abblasen das Volk mit Contrailslügen für dumm zu verkaufen 🙂 Es ist nun von der Regierung offiziell und beschönigt. Dabei geht es gar nicht einmal allein darum ob und wie gefährlich diese Chemikalien sind, sondern das wir in erster Linie belogen und in zweiter Linie nicht gefragt wurden. Wozu sollte man uns auch fragen… warum die Wahrheit von Anfnag sagen? Tolle Welt, vorbildliche Regierung und schöne Aussichten, das ist nämlich nur der Anfang.
ahh sry, again in englisch, my small one 🙂
Germanys government has released docemnts about the chemtrails, see links above. This documents admitted that they are doing some chemical modification in the fuel for CO2 reduction and heat reducing. So chemtrails are true and no hoax or conspiracys.
What could come as next?
HAARP causes earthquakes and some further and nice things (conspiracy)
Some Coorperations or Companys must be payed for rain (conspiracy)
Weather-Warfare (of course also just a conspiracy)
Chemtrails causes large land poisnening and healty Problems (not truth, just another dump conspiracy)
and so on 😉
Those documents talk about the future.
So those documents do not say anything about chemtrails.
Ok, Darwin is claiming the German government acknowledged chemtrails. This, of course, is not true. He is referring to a probing study of climate engineering options, evaluating advantages and disadvantages, ultimately finding the options problematic and impractical. Naturally, chemtrailers like to misread these texts.
German information on this: http://chemtrail-fragen.de/sauberer_himmel2.php#heiseunddiesondierungsstudie
Uncinus beat me to it.
As a firm believer in Chemtrails, I am very happy to find your site. My belief has always been that I do not remember contrail condensation that spread persistently outward when I was younger. For some reason, I decided to research cloud formations from the 70’s and came across your site.
My first experience with Con/Chemtrails occurred about 4 years ago while driving in Southern Ontario. The area here is mostly flat expansive farmland. During my boring, 2 hour drive I watched a plane fly from West of me and into the clear horizon leaving a long trail behind it. Another plane a little closer flew a similar path into the same point on the horizon…then another, then another from directly above, another from slightly east, another and another. 12 planes in total all flying to the same point on the horizon making a Japanese fan effect and all ending at the same point. The clear sky was now a haze and the point on the horizon began forming quite a large cloud and eventually a storm that I drove into.
A fascinating spectacle if only compared to the boring drive. I had never really seen anything like it and, while it didn’t send me looking for answers, I think this event stuck with me.
Later that year I bought a sailboat and while out on Lake Ontario began to notice similarly strange interactions between planes, cloud formations and weather. I researched a book I had on Weather Conditions and Cloud formations on the Great Lakes but did not find answers to the questions I was looking for. This brought me to the internet and an abundance of information that I was really not expecting.
Had I come across your web site at this time I would have likely said to myself that this is quite normal and I had really just never noticed before and I truly respect you and your site for taking a scientific approach that not only takes away the fluff from what I’ve read but really makes me think about what I am seeing and reading.
That being said, there is a real difference in what I remember as a child and young adult and what I am seeing today and I’m obviously not the only one.
Scientifically, there are reports of high levels of Aluminum on Mt. Shasta in California. This may or may not come from Chemtrails. It may be dust in the air or delivered via rain, etc. However, after reading some information on your site I did a little more research and found the following patent:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4296843/US-Patent-5003186-Stratospheric-welsbach-seeding-for-reduction-of-global-warming-spraying-with-aluminum-
The patent is for Stratospheric seeding for the reduction of Global Warming. I’m sure you’ve seen this and addressed it somewhere in your site as well. If so, if you could direct me, I would like to take a look at the response.
Jamay,
Your “Japanese Fan” sounds to me like the planes were simply flying parallel to each other (an/or flying the same route, and the trails being moved by the wind), and the result you saw was one of perspective. Like this:
Lots of things are patented, and never used. All the scientists currently involved in geoengineering research agree that nothing like that has ever been used. And there are lots of other geoenegineering patents – also which have not been used.
None of the Mt Shasta test results are actually unusual if you look at the circumstance of their taking (dirty snow, pond sludge).
Wow, thank you for the quick response. You are indeed very dedicated to debunking Chemtrails.
The fan pattern was exactly like your photo here and I watched each one being laid, one after the other, in a span of two hours. In this span, the fan disappeared into a haze in the sky.
To your response “Lots of things are patented, and never used. All the scientists currently involved in geoengineering research agree that nothing like that has ever been used.” I find it very interesting that I, like thousands of others have “noticed” something different in our skies and have decided to look into it further to find a wealth of information on both sides including an explanation that the sky is being sprayed to reduce global warming. Upon further research, a patent from 1991 describes exactly what people are talking about and a simple explanation from scientists saying it hasn’t been done doesn’t seem a little strange to you.
What about these explanations that were originally denied?
1987 Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.
1990 More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an “experimental” measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.
1994 With a technique called “gene tracking,” Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.
1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War.
1995 U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research.
1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections.
1996 Department of Defense admits that Desert Storm soldiers were exposed to chemical agents.
1997 Eighty-eight members of Congress sign a letter demanding an investigation into bioweapons use & Gulf War Syndrome.
In addition to the testing on Mt. Shasta a number of residents throughout the U.S. and around the world have been taking samples of materials “falling from the sky” in for testing and finding high levels of aluminum, barium, cadmium, etc.
These surely cannot all be explained away as coincidence nor improper taking, can they?
There are also patents for flying saucers. People talk about flying saucers. These two things together don’t mean that flying saucers exist.
And what exactly is that that matches the patent so precisely? How can you tell from the patent what the sprayed material would look like?
The bottom line is that what people see as “chemtrails” are identical IN EVERY WAY to contrails.
And the tests you speak of have, as far as I know, show either normal results, or they have tested the wrong thing. Do you have one in mind?
Thank you again for your response.
I had to dig a little further to dig up a “citizen test” that had some merit and came across a news report from News 12 Arkansas. Bill Nichols, a concerned citizen contacted the station who had his samples tested and found levels of Barium 3 times higher than the EPA recommended safe levels. While it can always be argued, as they due in the piece that “determining the source is always a problem”, this is just another in a very long line of coincidences that keep educated people like me wondering.
I’ve included a link to the piece below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiJ_R8JVpi4&feature=related
While looking, I also came across this piece which is supposedly taken by air-force pilots. While I do not necessarily see nozzles and turbo fans, I only see two jet turbines. The spray coming from the back of the wings is coming from areas where there are no engines. I could really use an explanation here as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0SNTIlB03s
Bill Nichols did not find elevated level of barium. They read the units wrong. He found levels well below EPA limits, see:
https://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/
That video was a hoax. It shows a KC-10 leaving an aerodynamic contrail, see:
https://contrailscience.com/fake-hoax-chemtrail-videos/
Perhaps you might like to have a look around this site?
This post here divides the site up into areas on interest, such as photos, or chemical tests. Please check there, or do a search, before posting more evidence.
https://contrailscience.com/how-to-debunk-chemtrails/
Thanks Uncinus,
I’ll take a closer look. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I really wish people would read the site before they post what’s already been debunked and explained.
Uncinus, I’ll join the chorus; to continue repeating the same scientific facts to these people, you have the patience of a saint.
The volume of water coming out of a jet engine has almost nothing to do with its efficiency. The efficiency of a jet engine is its ability to extract energy out of the fuel and convert it to propulsive force.
If you just burned the fuel in a barrel it would still produce the same amount of water.
The amount of water in a jet exhaust is directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. That’s the way the chemistry works. Burning hydrocarbons in air gives you water and some other stuff.
Thanks Chris, I’ll update the post.
I wrote this particular post quite a long time ago, and was not that familiar with the material. I thought at the time that it was simply burning more completely.
If anything, a more efficient engine will produce LESS water, as it burns less fuel.
Uncinus,
I have found your site helpful and informative. I remember as a child in Minnesota looking up at the contrails in the clear blue sky and marveling that they stayed so very long. I remember asking my parents what they were and being told that it was water vapor from the commercial airplanes that I could see flying at the head of the white line in the sky. Uncinus, I’m 50 years old and I’m talking about things I remember from when I was less then 10. That’s 40 years of seeing CONtrails in the sky. These conspiracy folks have short memories, don’t they?
Kudos to you for quietly and consistently answering raving “sky is falling” conspiracists with cold hard scientific fact and logic. You have more patience than I, since I was only able to get through a couple of pages of their diatribe in your comments.
Thank you EquinoxMoon, I appreciate that.
Mick, the concepts as related by Chris are considerably more complicated. There are several types of efficiency, Thermal efficiency, specific fuel efficiency, and several more. Full combustion of kerosene is not accomplished in a barrel as Chris stated, full combustion as described by the ideal stoichiometric chemical equation yielding the maximum water, has come closer to being achievd over the years by higher compression ratios and higher burner temps and other means. Further improvements will be harder to reach as we approach material limits, unless we come up with better materials!
I don’t have enough time or space to fully discuss this at the moment, but will try later.
This discusses some of the issues:
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/sres/aviation/index.php?idp=95
Jay, of course the bottom line though is passenger miles per gallon, which has increased significantly. If a new engine is giving the same amount of thrust for half the fuel, then it can hardly be producing more water.
I’ve not seen any firm figures, but it does not seem like the completeness of combustion is a major factor in contrail formation. Engine emissions now have the incomplete combustion components at <1% of the CO2/H2O.
I admit though that the various uses of "efficiency" are rather confusing. It would be good to get a definitive write-up.
Uncinus,
When I was a little kid growing up in SoCal, my uncle explained what a contrail was and I used to watch planes a lot. I distinctly remember the trail disappearing a ways behind the plane. In my memory, that’s what a contrail was. I’m not suggesting that the long trails are not contrails, but do you have any idea why the norm today are the long trails?
Greg
I suspect you are remembering just the planes of one summer, during a time you were interested. Nothing has changed. In SoCal the trails generally don’t persist in summer.
So really I think it’s a trick of memory. Especially when you consider that lots of people actually DO remember the long trails.
Hi Greg. I grew up in Newport , a suburb of Sydney Australia in the 1960s.
I distinctly remember contrails stretching right across the sky from horizon to horizon when I was in infant school, making that about 1968. Most of us kids in the playground used to try to spot the planes since our parents used the popular local explanation for children that they were snow from Santa’s sleigh carrying toys from toys factories in the North and South pole.
We always thought that strange and memorable because Christmas in Australia occurs in mid summer and we wondered about Snow in hot weather.
In fact our parents were quite accurate in that the trails were ice crystals and the temperature was more than cold enough for ice in the middle of summer at high altitude due to lapse rate.
Just because you yourself or others may never have paid much attention to long contrails in the past does not mean millions of others didn’t pay attention.
Did you notice the contrails in Terminator 2? National Lampoon’s Vacation? Spartacus? Back to the future? Patton? If not, then think about why you don’t remember then from such old films, even though they are in plain sight .
First of all: http://i.imgur.com/eCcHz.gif
I have uncovered a conspiracy, and I have proof. Of course, nothing is ever 100%, but one must go with the most plausible explanation.
http://i.imgur.com/5xsNw.gif
Addie, warrior, marcah, and rudedog are government agents sent to nail Uncinus with a barrage of nonsensical witticisms parading as evidence, never relenting to logic or giving ground to reason. They are hired to do this by the government so you, Uncinus, eventually fold. Your calm responses, your bright and quiet beacon of truth piercing the darkness. Your *cringes* PROOF.
The most plausible explanation for how they act must be a government conspiracy to shut you up; that way, you won’t disabuse real conspiracy theorists of their false beliefs and the government can keep real conspiracy theorists nervous and busy.
That, or chem-trails. Something has to be causing this epidemic of stupid.
If this is cruel, feel free to delete it. It’s late. I stumbled on your website by accident and then ended up reading the entire exchange. I cringed for you. I applauded you. I wept. Almost.
To the merry band of idiots: Wake up. I almost fell into the cycle of 2012 Mayan calendar bullshit five years ago. These theories play on your brain. Consider that you are less powerful when what you believe is not true. The force is not strong in you.
But what if the science doesn’t fit into your normal belief structure? http://tinyurl.com/3zpcjko
But what if the science lays to waste everything you’ve studied for years? http://i.imgur.com/15WIG.gif
But what if it means that life is just as beautiful and horrifying as it is: no more and no less? http://i.minus.com/ibatROKusDZ8mb.gif
http://i.imgur.com/5OGaX.gif
Just get a clue. Or don’t. http://i.imgur.com/5vQxV.gif
Here is where I show my true roots: I only read the first page of the six or seven pages of comments. Thus the old-timey names. Apologies.
Here is where I show my true roots: I only read the first page of the six or seven pages of comments. Thus the old-timey names. Apologies.
Uncinus, seriously…….. You persist in this tirelessly, though you yourself go strictly on info your fed that you personally can’t substantiate. Absolutely refusing to believe anything you see with your own God given senses, do you usually discredit them as questionable, relying instead on what your told? They call people like that “sheeple”. Now your either one of the afore mentioned or a sent mouthpiece from those that would like to keep people “sheeple”! I’ve been around long enough to know disinformation when I see and hear it and you sir are spooning, a more apt definition is shoveling alot of it. Sit down and be quiet and let those that are aware speak with out you and your kind throwing spike belts in front of everyone.
Hi Dean. I see contrails, and I certainly believe I (and you) see them – they are right there, you just have to look up when the weather condition aloft are right.
Can you explain how what I see are not contrails?
Seems Dean would rather talk about sheeple than science. Kitchen psychology tells you it’s an ego thing. Too bad.
wasn’t like that when I was old enough to notice details.
Hey man, I have a really good piece you should do that I haven’t seen yet. I’m sure you know how the pressurization system works on an aircraft. It’s unfiltered, and takes ambient air and compresses it from around 3 PSI to about 50, and then blows it into the cabin at a rate that the aircraft I fly has a complete turnover in air about every two minutes as it is released through the outflow butterfly valve. How is it that “chemtrails” are soooooo poisonous to those on the ground, when flight crew and 620,000,000 people fly in the US alone every year, with no effects. Not only do pilots spend 1000 a year in “poisoned skies”. In agents that would have to be so concentrated already only to be scoop up and superconentrated AGAIN, and we get a fresh medical every 6 months.
Mike, you are correct. The chemtrail believers knew about this 12 years ago. At that time, I predicted that none of them ever would actually test a cabin air filter and present anything unexpected:
http://metabunk.org/threads/743-Will-chemtrails-or-covert-geoengineering-show-up-in-varves-ice-cores-or-tree-rings?p=14044&viewfull=1#post14044
Excellent site. Particularly enjoyed finding citations of various accounts of persistent contrails throughout the jet aviation era. It effectively ended an argument with a friend of mine who I was finally able to get to agree that the goal post for debunking his belief in “chemtrails” would be to provide evidence of persistent spreading contrails dating back to the first 10-20 years of jet propulsion.
He has just now agreed not to speak about “chemtrails” with or around me until such time as solid evidence exists of chemical substances being found in contrails that are not known/expected byproducts of the combustion process of the fuel being used (specifically in contrails themselves, not in rain puddles which are subject to quite a number of other vectors of contamination). That is the basic goal post I set for all people attempting to convince me of this conspiracy theory’s merit. Show me samples taken from a contrail that take into full consideration the chemical makeup of the fuel being used by the jet engines producing them, the known and expected combustion products, and a clearly defined understanding of all additives in the fuel used for purposes such as stabilization and increased combustion efficiency.
Until that kind of a comprehensive analysis is provided I cannot consider this theory as anything more than an unnecessary distraction from legitimate environmental concerns. Jets do spew out chemicals that are a cause for concern, just like gasoline exhaust is filled with combustion products that are a cause for concern, no grand conspiracy is necessary for gasoline exhaust to be considered toxic. The closest thing to a conspiracy you can point to is the tendency over the last 150-200 years of pushing for technological progress with little or no concern for the possible negative long term impact of the technologies developed. For example: leaded gasoline and CFCs, both of which seemed like great ideas and very useful inventions but ultimately proved to have serious environmental impacts that were simply not tested for or even taken into consideration as a possibility at the time they were invented and subsequently adopted by the market.
Great post SimplyComplex.
God, save us from idiots. I’m a total conspiracy theorist but these people who keep saying “obvious” to aggrandize their subjective without any understanding or facts present do give the conspiracy theory a bad name. To not believe there is a conspiracy is to close your eyes to the obvious situation in Middle East that is being CREATED, to close your eyes to the destruction of economy and aggregation of funds in the hands of a few, etc. But this crap pisses me off, because every proponent of this malarkey is completely unable to distinguish a fact from a suspicion. I don’t know if there is anything being sprayed but I wont take it for granted until I see ONE solid fact pointing to this, before that happens, it’s all a speculation and nothing else. Well and the reason there are so many thick people is our educational system, and I do have enough proof to know it was changed deliberately.
I love your site. Thanks. Even if there were chemtrails I think we have much much bigger problems facing us. This reminds me of the vaccine scare, I talked to this person who claimed she researched the subject for 20 years and it does cause autism. I asked her why the significant decrease of mercury in vaccines (most don’t have it at all now) didn’t cause decrease in the number of autistic children in the last ten years and why the numbers continue to grow. She never answered. It’s the same with every one of these theories. They do not have actual knowledge of the subject nor do they desire to have knowledge or understanding of anything.
This world is composed of amateurs going about their amateur life blithely. And they are a majority. They don’t see actual causes and never will. And that’s exactly why we are in such a deep shithole right now.
Saw something earlier in the Thread about the declining number of honeybees. I was speaking to a bee keeper in my native UK on a long distance coach. I asked him about this, and he gave me a very simple and logical answer to why the number of honey bees are declining. He said “95% or more of honey bees you see going around gathering nectar from flowers are someone’s pets! They very rarely live in the wild (in the UK) these days. Since the 1970’s the amounts of registered bee keepers in the UK (and maybe the world) has been on a decline, and therefore the amounts of honey bees are in decline”
Now this is a bad thing, granted as they are responsible for a lot of cross pollination, more than bumble bees, but the decline is nothing to do with chemical agents sprayed into the skies, it is more a social problem. He also mentioned that Africanized bees are causing big problems to wild honey bee populations world wide, as Africanized bees are bigger, stronger, more aggressive that the humble honey bee, and will attack and kill nests of honey bees. That is why the gaps to let bees in and out of a bee house can not be to big, because if to big Africanized bees will get in and kill the nest.
I am glad that someone has taken the time to document the scientific explanation of contrails, but mostly I am concerned about the backlash the “chemmies” or “chemtards” or atmospheric aerosol spraying believers have gotten from the nay sayers.
Both contrails and “chemtrails” exist together in ou skies, and it’s the complete ignorance of everyone that makes the existence of chemtrails a mystery because we will never know what is truly happening. The global elite and our hijacked governments have had the “common folk” caught in a ruse for over a century.
To believe anything that the gov, its agencies, corporations, scientists, and the media say/publish is to live as a fool under total control as a debt slave to the oligarchy forever. There is no reason to believe that the US hasn’t smuggled in ex-Nazis, traveled via jump rooms (teleportation/time travel), poisoned its own people, allowed 9/11, met with ETs, or has been spraying the sky with metals, vaccines, and whatever else they can think of.
To continue to look for proof of something that most likely will never come to public knowledge is to deny the possibility or shred of truth to slip by. Sadly, most of the “trusted” gov agencies, like the FDA, medical research firms, corporations, and other organizations that provide “facts” have already been caught spreading disinformation in the past. So why should anyone listen today?
I could provide all kinds of links to sources, but in the end it doesn’t matter because we live in a molevolent society that is run by self-consumed, greedy anus abysses. I could provide to you proof that chemo and radiation treatments accellerate cancer growth, but i’m positive that someone would have somethingmean to say and surely I’d be dismissed and shunned as a crazy loon.
I’m sure that some prick that works for the Rockefeller medical establishment would magically provide some kind of elitist study done at some “trustworthy” institution that would completely shred any proof I may have. The biggest reason why this would happen is greed will always come before human health needs if we continue to go down the same rotten path.
The world really is not what it seems, and truth will always be stranger than fiction. Get ready for a huge fight because if any of you value your freedoms, families, and lives, then I suggest your turn off the mind-numbing/dumbing distractions and wake the (insert curse word here) up.
Bloodyrebel,
Sad to see the world of conspiracy culture has made you such a bitter demoralized person.
Thanks Jay. You should do stand-up comedy.
How to respond to an anti Conspiracy Theorist – http://www.tomatobubble.com/id196.html
[Admin: large cut-and-paste from link removed]
BR, we are just discussing the evidence for chemtrails here. Distrust of the PTB is another topic.
If there’s no evidence to support chemtrails existence, then why believe in it?
Uncinus, why do so many believe in God(s) despite the lack of evidence. The lack of belief does not negate existence.
All I’m saying is that there’s no evidence. If you want to believe then go ahead, just don’t claim there is evidence where there is not.
Was on my tablet for last reply.
Uncinus, the lack of belief and evidence does not negate the existence of God and chemtrails. To say that something does not exist or isn’t true without proper knowledge of said topic then that is proclaiming to be all-knowing, of which can only be attained by the Godly. Are you godlike?
Distrust has everything to do with this conversation. Where do you get your info? From the very same distrusted sources that everyone does, regardless of accolades, experience, and anything else this society uses to validate a source.
I believe anything is possible because I don’t know everything.
Okay, but this post is about persistent and spreading contrails. Do you disagree with anything in it?
Maybe you believe there is no evidence because you haven’t seen it yet. Also, I never claimed there was evidence of chemtrails, but I am willing to believe that the evidence is out there because I know I’m not a part of a divine bloodline that is all-knowing and all-powerful.
Ask yourself… if you have access to top-secret and other black projects do you think you would have more evidence -for whatever, not necessarily chemtrails- to support a fringe idea, or even a conspiracy theory or cover-up of sorts?
To deny something entirely, without seeing tangible evidence or facts that can easily be hidden or even destroyed, means to also deny the existence of the universe and everything known and unknown within it.
What I am saying is… Just because you have not seen the evidence to support the existence of something, in this case chemtrails, does not mean that this something does or does not exist.
We know that contrails exist, in varying forms, so why would it be so completely crazy that chemtrails exist when NO ONE has the evidence, proof, or facts to back it up anyways? Especially, when we do not have the access that few humans have today.
Please do not construe my words as being of the “trolling” nature. I believe that you have a brain and you have presented yourself well on this website. Thanks for replying.
I agree fully with you, but at the same time I know that the best way to hide things is in plain sight. This means that the persistent and spreading contrails can be used as cover for the supposed chemtrail logic.
Not to strike you down or disagree with you in any way. I just think that there’s more to the story and nearly no one will have access to the proper information and knowledge to make a sound opinion or factual statement, regardless of the lack of evidence, facts, or proof.
Maybe there’s evidence I’ve not seen. But where is it? All I know is I’ve been studying it for six years, and there’s no visible evidence. So it’s bit odd as to why people believe in it.
I understand your confusion into why people would believe something that you’ve spent a lot of time in investigating without evidence or proof to turn up. There’s no way that evidence of such a clandestine act will surface so quickly, and if it is a continuing project then good luck on finding a nugget of truth.
Most people still believe that 9/11 was caused by OBL and his hijackers, but there’s plenty of information that suggests that the official conspiracy theory the 9/11 Commission Report was a total fraud. I’ve spent more time on this subject than chemtrails, so I completely understand how odd it is for people to believe in something without evidence. No I did not intend to turn this into a 9/11 discussion so please do not assume that was my intention. haha
I’ll leave you be. Thanks for making this website and don’t go nutty trying to find that tidbit of truth in a sea of lies and deception.
The problem isn’t belief, and the problem isn’t one of the existence of god. The problem is this: what makes you think there are chemtrails, when there is no hint that they even exist?
Distrust in government does not prove chemtrails.
Past lies by the government do not prove chemtrails.
Something has to have made you think chemtrails exist. If so, what is it? If it’s merely distrust of government or “the elite”, that’s a weak argument. You can “prove” any claim with that.
By the way, lies and deception wise, on the matter of chemtrails, there is an argument to be made that the deception is on the part of believers in chemtrails – the science of meteorology and aviation is quite transparent.
Strawman, no argument was being made so don’t assume that one was there and that it was weak. I never said that distrust in the gov proved chemtrails. You are borderline trolling.
Sorry if I misread you. No need to get rude. This argument is being made here very often, so please understand my reaction.
You were, in a way, trying to keep open the possibility of chemtrails existing, it seems, by refering to distrust in government (correct me, if I’m wrong here). That actually unneccessary, since the claim being made on this site is not the nonexistence of chemtrails, but the lack of evidence to support their existence. See, the basic problem is that you cannot prove nonexistence.
Or how am I supposed to read this?
“Both contrails and “chemtrails” exist together in ou skies, and it’s the complete ignorance of everyone that makes the existence of chemtrails a mystery because we will never know what is truly happening. The global elite and our hijacked governments have had the “common folk” caught in a ruse for over a century.”
And, once again, that is not a good argument to make.
Not trying to argue. It is just my belief.
And, to get back to my initial question: what would make anyone think chemtrails exist, when there is just no hint, no evidence at all of their existence?
If you say, there is deception going on, the way to counter would be to show how, say, the science of meteorology is wrong, how it is intentionally disinforming. Just as an example.
Distrust in government is fine, it’s actually productive. But I think that arguments need to be better grounded in concrete criticism, concrete issues and concrete evidence. Totalizing, abstract arguments, going to the extremes of proof of god, provide merely what in German is called a “Weltbild”.
(These are, by the way, thoughts I gathered from reading exchanges here regularly. So they are not necesarrily directed at you personally.)
Ah, I see. Weltbild, indeed.
bloodyrebel thought the usual distractions would work here. When it became clear that something concrete was required, he found a way to save face by denying everything.
‘divine bloodline’ indeed! Bloody Ickeites
I did not come here to prove the existence of anything. So you can continue to troll your way across the internet trying to find someone else to anger because it won’t work with me.
Just because I believe in chemtrails doesn’t mean that I have to sit here and attempt to prove anything to anyone. I’m just an average guy that knows that truth is stranger than fiction.
To claim that there is no evidence of something when no one has the proof of the absence or the existence of proof is to claim to be God. No one can say there is no evidence of something unless they know everything. Just because you all haven’t seen the evidence of chemtrails does not mean that they don’t exist. That was my point.
So you are saying basicallly that chemtrails is a religious belief that you hold. Thank you for clearing that up.
haha @ Steve. good one 🙂
Keep the idiocy coming.
Dear bloodyrebel, you admit not to be interested in debate, and everything you say is absolutely in line with that. You don’t seem to be interested in forming a concrete argument. You seem to take challenge and misunderstanding as trolling. All the while misunderstanding what the other says and insulting them. And that’s not even an individual trait. I have seen lots of people believing in, for example, chemtrails being incredibly sensitive and taking any argument as an insult, all the while insulting others as trolls, shills, disinfo agents etc. This is not to reduce you to a stereotype, this is only to point you to a possible reflection on how you seem to others. Don’t be a stereotype.
But anyways, if you really are not interested in debate, I will not waste my time. I have little time for preachers.
Bloody rebel wrote:
“To claim that there is no evidence of something when no one has the proof of the absence or the existence of proof is to claim to be God.”
not how I see it. to claim there is no evidence of something is to claim there is no evidence of something.
To claim to be god is another matter entirely.
“No one can say there is no evidence of something unless they know everything.”
I can – I do not know everything, but I claim there is no evidence of chemtrails existing.
” Just because you all haven’t seen the evidence of chemtrails does not mean that they don’t exist.”
It is not a matter of not having seen “all the evidence” – it is a matter of never having seen ANY evidence – despite people telling me they have “proof” or “absolute evidence” or whatever.
So why don’t you show us some evidence that we haven’t seen yet?
haha okay whatever
bloodyrebel,
who gave you the reason for your belief? What made you believe in chemtrails?
A lack of trust in the government does not imply any specific issue. With the same rationale, you could also believe in a secret giant cave in the earth’s core.
So – why chemtrails?
It doesn’t matter because you all have made up your own minds anyway. I did not come here to prove anything to anyone because all attempts to do so will be met with fierce resistance and possibly more trolling. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
So why did you come here?
And if yuo cannot actually provide any evidence then why do you beleive the hoax in the first place??
Ignorance is not having knowledge – if you haev no evidence to support your claims then you have no knwledge that hety ar true, but you make them anyway. Is that really what you consider bliss??
bloodyrebel,
I did not demand that you prove anything. I’m genuinely interested what initially caused your belief in chemtrails.
DNFTT, dudes.
I’m the minority here on this website so no matter what proof, evidence, or facts I may bring forth I will most likely be shunned by the majority of you anyway. I made my point clear and yet you all seem to be obsessed with me providing some kind of information that proves a nonexistent argument that you all claim that I am supposedly making.
Why don’t you all provide me with proof that chemtrails do not exist.
You can’t prove something does not exist. You can only demonstrate there is no known evidence that it does. This site has demonstrated that.
Is there any evidence for chemtrails? One little shred? Anything?
bloodyrebel,
I for my part are far from obsessed with anything. However, I think you can agree with the statement that any kind of belief has an origin, be it a triggering experience or be it a growing conviction, formed by observing and reading.
Most people hanging around here will be able to describe the origin of their belief (or conviction, to take out the religious bit). Can you do it too?