Popular Science, March 1943. Page 55.
While this applies to 1943 planes, it should also be noted that the exact same mechanisms are responsible for contrails from modern jet aircraft. Jet engines burn fuel that is essentially the same kind of chemical as used by old prop planes. They produce lots of water vapor, and a contrail can result if the weather (at the plane’s altitude) is right. If the weather aloft is humid, then the contrail can persist for several hours.
Excellent find Uncinus, classic!
If you think that’s an excellent find, debunk the congressional documents calling for Solar Radiation Management by deploying Stratospheric sulfate into the atmosphere using Jet aircraft or “marine cloud whitening”. Very interesting indeed but you’d probebly agree with the statement that the miltary would NEVER experiment on us, right? Read it:
http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Commdocs/hearings/2010/Energy/4feb/Hearing_Charter.pdf
It’s always amazing that people think that discussing climate modification is something new. It’s been discussed for many decades, and never at any point has there been any evidence that people are actually doing it
In fact there’s a large number of possible methods discussed in the paper, there’s no evidence that ANY of them have ever been tried. Even if you just narrow it down to stratospheric sulfate injection, there’s at least five methods: “sprays from aircraft, land-based guns, rockets, manmade chimneys, and aerial balloons” – none of which have ever been attempted.
Why then do you think this give credence to the “chemtrail” theory? Do you have any actual evidence that the trails are different? Any increase in acid rain? Any increase in airborne sulfates?
Where’s the evidence?
@Uncinus….
You’re no protagonist! You think you’re “just some dude”.
NO, this site has an agenda….
which is COUNTER to mine.
Thats why we have an issue.
You LIKE pollution.
You get off on it!
Contrails are Artificial Clouds!
And you LIKE THEM. Lets be perfectly blunt about that.
I DO NOT like them.
that is the difference here. You LIKE pollution. I dont!
AND you believe that “if you do not have any evidence” then that means its not happening!!!
Wow. thats how little children are fooled!
That is a logical fallacy Unicinus.
If weather modification projects are underway but Uncinus doesnt get the memo, does that make them
magically stop happening?
no.
you’re an idiot. a gullable pollution loving willfully ignorant west side asshole.
Shit you probably live in OC.
Do you think If I went out on the street today and interviewed everyone I could about
the USS Liberty Incident that they would know what I was referring to?
No? how come UNCINUS?
Surely you know about this OLD news?
Well its totally declassified!
Why wouldnt people know about what is perfectly available?
So dont use that pathetically tired and weak argument “just because there are an infinite number of ‘weather modification’ plans/projects/tests/bills/patents….doesnt mean anything is going on”…
thats insulting.
but expected from a pollution loving asshole like yourself! right?
Well, no I don’t like pollution at all. I don’t think many people do. I think it would be great if planes could fly without emissions. I’d prefer there to be no contrails if possible. I think they are essentially visual pollution.
But I’m interested in them, and they do sometimes look quite pretty.
You know, a proposed pollution free plane would use hydrogen as fuel. The only emission would be water. That would produce bigger and longer lasting contrails. Would you not prefer that to the current situation?
Now, of course there could be covert climate modification projects going on. But the point I’m making here is that there is zero evidence of those project. Yet the “chemtrail” theorists claim that there is evidence.
If you want to get all logical, then you could reduce my claim to “there is no evidence to support the chemtrail theory”.
So, let’s go with that. Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? If you disagree, then what is the evidence?
Yes- please post some evidence. But please don’t post any links to youtube videos.
I will now translate what you have stated:
I think that contrails are visual pollution and I’d rather there be none,in fact I’d like there to be no emissions from planes.
CTYF:
Oh, so we should ground all the planes? COOL! Lets give it a shot.
(or realistically….are you PRINCIPLED or a TOOL IN A SYSTEM?)
I think you’re a tool. And most people are sheeple. And if
there isnt anything to this whole “chemtrail” issue…then theres plenty of other things to
haarp on about. Yes, I do mean what is referred to as a NWO.
Oh really UNCINUS? well, you’ll have hundreds to look at which will keep you busy and baffled as to the nuances
of their “benign” creation.
Wow UNCINUS, what part of “covert” did you not understand when you were learning your 3rd grade vocabulary?
wow, just wow.
Which chemtrail theorists? Is there one kind? heck, Theres all kinds! just like christians and white people and minerals…shit man we could go on forever right?
UNCINUS, what is this “chemtrail theory”?
You’d have to define it before I could disagree with it!
All I do is document the skies and make reference to plenty of information pertinent to weather modification/manipulation/ELF Ionospheric /experimental blah blah blah…..
how many times must I go over it?
Let me get back to my fun ass life for a second and you’ll get all yer pretty weathermodification pics
to debunk as time rolls on.
And yes..you bet i’ll be documenting ALL SUMMER!
LA CRIMES spraydays.
Okay, now let’s say there are bad people in power who naturally would do something.
Why specifically THIS?
There must be some evidence to make you suspect this in particular. What evidence? Why don’t you think they are poisoning the water supply? Of the food chain? Why not subliminal message on TV? Why not reptilian overlords? Why THIS theory in particular?
Surely there must be SOME evidence that makes you think that contrails are being deliberately modified?
Why is it that so many people “believe” that contrails are “visible pollution”. As if the long white trail we see is long and white BECAUSE of the pollutants. The funny thing is, if all air traffic were to avoid the conditions that would cause the water vapor from the exhaust to freeze, no one would even SEE 90% of the planes, nevermind complain about the pollution they create.
It’s hilarious how so many ignore the billions of sources of pollution at ground level and focus on airplanes simply because they “think” the long, white, long-lasting trails are a visual representation of how much pollution the plane is creating…which just isn’t true.
Of all the ways to move hundreds of people from one end of the country to another, air travel is the most efficient, and least polluting (unless they are walking), yet hardly anyone questions the inefficiency of MILLIONS of people driving to work and back, ALONE, in gas guzzling SUV’s.
It’s just the LOOK of the skies that sets these people off…yet there is absolutely NO evidence to support an “intentional spray program”, to manipulate weather or kill people or whatever…. It’s sheer paranoid speculation.
The trails persist because water vapor from the jet engines contact saturated and very cold air. On the days (and in the areas of the atmosphere) where these conditions don’t exist, trails won’t persist. End of story.
“In fact there’s a large number of possible methods discussed in the paper, there’s no evidence that ANY of them have ever been tried.”
Wow you are 100% wrong! Check your premises because contradictions do not exist. You will find that one of them is always wrong. In this case it is yours!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye
The paper discusses methods of countering global warming, including increasing the amount of cloud cover worldwide.
Operation Popeye was cloud seeding to create rain in highly localized places, using technology that has been used for decades.
Two entirely different things. None of the actual methods described in the paper have ever been used.
i record chemtrailsevery day.they can turn them on and off.they leave a small traill then shut off the flow for a bit then leave another.evergreen international a cia partner operates the evergreen supertanker 747.the worlds largest aerial firefighting spray planeTHEYRE WEBSITE STATES THE PLANE CAN ALSO BE USED FOR WEATHER MODIFICATION.WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW AS CITIZENS AND ADULTS WHY THEY ARE SPRAYING US WITH ALUMINUM AND BARIUM.THESE ARE POISEON TO US AND OUR CHILDREN.GO TO FOTOSEARCH.COM AND THEY HAVE THOUSANDS OF PICTURES OF JETS FLYING AT ABOVE CLOUD AND HIGHER ALTITUDES WITH NO CONTRAILS OR CHEMTRAILS.COMMON SENSE SAYS ITS AERIAL SPRAYING.THE AF RESERVE WEBSITE HAS PICS OF A C130 H WITH A MASS MODULAR AERIAL SPRAY SYSTEM SPRAYING FIELDS.WILDFIRE.COM HAS PICS OF AN AIRFORCE C130 WITH THE MAFFS(AERIAL FIREFIGHTING SYSTEM)I AM AN EX NAVY CRASH AND SMASH AERIAL FIREFIGHTING TEAM MEMBER AND EX DAMAGE CONTROLMAN WH LIVED ABOARD A NUCLEAR AIRCRAFT CARRIER AND NEVER SEEN THESE CHEMTRAILS LEFT BY OUR JETS.WHAT NONSENSE
I WRITE IN ALL CAPS SO I AM TELLING THE TRUUUUUUTHHHH!!! CHEMTRAILS ARE REAALLLLLLL!!!! MY GRAMMER GOOD AND I SEEN CHEMTRAILS ALL THE TIME!!!
Sorry- I reserve the right to slam anyone who obviously picks a random page on here to spout nonsense on.
DC3, for broken contrails, see:
https://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
Evergreen says nothing about weather modification, perhaps you could provide the quote?
There are lots of photos of jets not leaving contrails because contrail formation depends on the weather at the specific altitude, and not the altitude itself. Jet frequently don’t leave contrails at all altitudes.
C130 is used for several low level spraying operations, such as mosquito spraying.
You won’t see your jets from an aircraft carrier leave contrails by the carrier, as when they are near the carrier they will be at a low altitude.
Weather modification inc is a cloud seeding aerial spray co among other things.they operate 35 weather mod planes with pressurized spry jets.the websilte is weathermodification.com.thay can modify any plane or jet and have been involved in weather modification since 1961. We have a right to know the truth as free american citizens
As charles fort said the road to the truth is paved with laughter and ridicule.jet contrails cannot be turned onand off(iwrite in caps so people with closed minds can see,you know who im talking to.explain this expert 2 planes crossing paths,both jet cargo planes one is leaving a trail the other is not,then the one keaving the trail turns it off then a quarter mile away starts it again.for the thickskulled there is only denial because the facts hurt theyre little tiny bit ogf self confidence behind the giant i know it all ego.have you ever kived on a runway.i have its called an aircraft carrier.
Evergreens website has a section that says other uses on it they kist weather modification.it is right there on theyre site and numerous other copies of the site.weathermodification inc weathermodification inc.com has numerous pics to.the c130h is shown flying low but no one seen the plane flying low like that after katrina it is capable of spraying anything at any altitude.i watch these planes leave chem weather mod trails on cold morning and hot afternoons here in sacramento ca ,they are not evren close to 30 thousand feet.i will be at the capital valley air show (like every year)filming if you want some truth come see me and you will get it
Come on people lets get this debate out in the open.the evidence is slam dunk and the powers that be know it.
In the navy we have lookouts(i have been one)if we see a jet or missle leave a cloud we increase our MOPP level and turn on the countermeasure washdown system.we then send external survey teams outside to test for chemical and biological agents.you made a good point though without aid to youre eyes a plane cannot be seen at 30thousand feet.after 911 the big scare was crop dusting planes used for attacks and this is exactky how a chemical attack would happen.i have also witnessed flares being deployed over my nieghborhood as shown on the afreservee site and discussed on weathermocification incs website.
Cloud seeding has never been a secret. But it looks nothing at all like the long persistent contrails that people call “chemtrails”.
Can you explain how you estimate the altitude of the planes that you say are “not even close to 30 thousand feet”? How do you know it’s not a larger plane at a higher altitude? Do you have photos that demonstrate you can identify the type of plane?
regarding the two planes crossing paths – they are at different altitudes, which explains why one leaves a trail and the other does not. The trail is broken because the levels of humidity and temperature in the atmosphere vary.
See:
http://docweather.com/2/show/40/
For a very detailed explanation.
DC3- As Uncinus said- cloud seeding is NOT secret. Its been done for over 50yrs – around the world. It doesn’t involve persistent contrails. It doesn’t involve any “spraying”- they shoot ice flares into precipitation clouds. Its often done from the ground via small rockets. Weather Mod Inc is a private company that is hired by LOCAL agencies- water districts, ski areas, even local farmers to try and increase precip. YOU could hire one of their planes to go ans sample a contrail or 10 of your choice…
Here is another company that does the same thing:
North American Weather Consultants, Inc.
http://www.nawcinc.com/wmfaq.html
cloud seeding has NOTHING to do withe the persistent contrails people think are “chemtrails”.
I have never lived on an aircraft carrier. I’m not sure exactly what goes on there but I base my assumtions on what I see on various media and I think it’s generally a professional place with the exception of a few people who are really hot headed and do whatever they want including tower fly-bys without permission and occasionally there’s some guy who has father issues who freaks out and can’t land his own airplane. I also believe that since it’s the Navy there must be alot of gay guys on a carrier, many of whom dress up in outfits like an indian or a cop. I have many preconcieved ideas about life at sea since I have never actually been there- but that’s OK, I’ll just keep having them and if you say I’m worng then it’s because of your ego.
In the meantime I’ll continue to operate in the flight levels where I have intimate knowledge of virtually everything related to contrail production.
Douglas Dakota:
“Weather modification inc” is an overblown claim. This shouldn’t be hard to see. It’s been going on since “Lucky Strike means fine tobacco” or “Craven-A, for those with smoker’s cough“. Modifying a cloud ISN’T modifying the weather. That’s third grade…
“As charles fort said the road to the truth is paved with laughter and ridicule” and “for the thickskulled there is only denial” – Self-cancelling. If by “thick-skulled”, you mean as ignorant as YOU are. (Second grade).
“i watch these planes leave chem weather mod trails on cold morning and hot afternoons” – Ah ha. Then you know NOTHING about how different is the stratosphere (where these planes are flying) and the troposphere (where YOU are). There’s no physical dependence between the two. You need to go to school. (Third grade).
“they are not even close to 30 thousand feet” “without aid to youre eyes a plane cannot be seen at 30thousand feet” – Self-cancelling. Leaving you at second grade.
“the evidence is slam dunk and the powers that be know it” – That you are uneducated? Yes. You might be able to ask for educational support.
“after 911 the big scare was crop dusting planes used for attacks and this is exactly how a chemical attack would happen” Is it now? I think one of those sophisticated aerial distribution devices the US military is big on might do a better job, personally. You know, COVERAGE, AREA, that sort of thing. Or just through the water supply. That can be done undetectably almost anywhere, by people with education superior to third grade.
Sorry to get your hopes up… in fact, very sorry you have hopes at all… except to rise through school and get yourself educated one day.
“As charles fort said the road to the truth is paved with laughter and ridicule”
I love it when people use this quote and then just ASSume that the ONLY reason they are being laughed at because they are on the right track. There could easily be another reason they are laughed at…right?!
They are also rather fond of Ghandi’s “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”, thinking that it demonstrates that being ignored and laughed at makes you right.
I want to go up in a plane and make a vapour trail for a charity.
How can i go about this?
mary- you want to do what? If you want to sky write something there are companies for that but I don;t think it’s cheap or you would see messages all the time. If you actually want to make a contrail it would be extremely expensive and time consuming. I wouldn’t recommend it.
Skywriting is also rather uncommon in the UK, where Mary seems to be located.
Atmospheric sounding data. Altitude+Temp+Humidity= contrail or no contriail/chemtrail.
Ur site is awsome!Now I can understand contrails.Thanks!I don’t understand why people are so angry with u, u are just reporting facts.Nothing u say seems to be against the truth, and when one dude says u love pollution and gov is so weird!I believed in chemtrails, now i know they are not spraying us globally almost daily, and i sleep better for it!
But this don’t mean the gov is guilt free, in the contrary.They are surely testing their tech, where?Who knows only whistle blower or after 50 years we will know!
We need to fight pollution and cutting of trees, those are real problem, in ur face!
The pesticide and GM food are the one to fight against, don’t waste ur time with chems!
Some very confused people are angry about this site simply because they don’t want to accept that they have fallen for a hoax. They would rather continue to believe in this particular hoax, regardless of a COMPLETE lack of evidence to support their claims and a mountain of evidence that supports the the fact that every line we see in the sky is a contrail…and will always BE contrails…unless someone provides some evidence to the contrary. I’m still waiting for that…It never comes regardless of claim after claim after claim. They “think” they have proof…and it always turns out they are just mistaken and poorly educated in the subjects that easily prove them wrong. They don’t want to accept the fact that they are wrong, so they lash out.
ok. sooo i want you to know i dont care about grammar or education so you can take it from me that i may be THE most untouched mind. sr1941 should i say, maybe thats when you started your quote on quote spraying. OK. on to the relative SHIT. when dc3 was talking about 30000ft elevation im quite sure he meant below. i too have seen the FAG-trails, in a small town that is very aviation oriented in which i live in and i see them from takeoff and watch them toil around the center points of the all the interlocking counties. yes there is a fagtrail left behind in suspiciously populated areas with no point A and B. only point A. these planes are easily visble and below 3-5 miles. these planes sometimes have a nice white light on the bottom that i dont see on other planes that dims on and off on a 3 second basis. it appears that this is not a forum where free writers from every perspective join in discussion. all your doing is using your “education” to demean common folk who are NOTICING things. something as simple as chemical combustion in aviation should not be this fought over. its simple chemistry and if you the “good guys” cant give me a simple answer for a simple question then why shouldnt we ask why? the reason for others aggressive tac is that they havent received any straight forward answers. as far as i can tell your side seems to be fighting as hard to control our questioning as we are questioning you which brings me to wonder why are YOU hyped up about some conspiracy theorists that are as “blasphamous” as you portray them to be. another thing why is everyones comment even mary’s who isnt relative to this discussion board questioned then “patched” with an alternate subject for any other readers who might receive something more out of what she said. maybe she was relative and you do or do not understand subtleties. if its JUST water vapor and products of simple fuel chemical reactions, why then are multiple people (with the same ideals about what the conspirators are saying is wrong) combatting them with such ferocity? you all seem like some stupid fucking agents who are too fucking dumb to realize youve been trained beyond your own minds capabilities. therefore you feel a “Whole” feeling or as your ignorant mind perceives. its simply nothing more than your whole therefore your superior where as i may be unwhole yet i could possibly dominate you with a fraction of mine own CAPABILITY. not education you fool.
“Self-cancelling. Leaving you at second grade.”
misunderstanding. leaving you with your dick in your hand.
What was the simple question you (or someone else) asked that you (or they) didn’t get a simple answer for?
Is ther anything Uncinus has gotetn wrong? If so he’s on record many times saying tell him what it is and he’ll change it – provided you can actually show that it is wrong of course.
there is no control over questions here – you can ask whatever you want – but there is also no control over answers – if you ask a question that people don’t want to answer, or can’t answer, or which seems to be distracting from the owner’s purpose for this site (which is about contrails not miscellaneous conspiracies) then you might not like the response.
And I guess Uncinus has the ability to censor posts – but I’ve only seen it done in order to resurrect posts from the “spam” bin that I can recall.
C’est la vie – that’s life – I don’t know why you would expect it to be any different.
Why are so many people so ferociously combatting it? Dunno – I’m not a psychologist.
If I had to guess I say that to me it appears to be paranoia – there have always been paranoid people in the world, and with the internet they are able to express themsleves much more publically than before.
As for education – you seem to think that education or knowledge is actually bad, and I can’t see any reason why you would think that.
“all your doing is using your “education” to demean common folk who are NOTICING things. ”
No, they are not simply “noticing” things. They are making statements of fact about a subject they have never studied and getting it ALL completely wrong. Embarrassingly wrong.
People are free to “believe” whatever they want, but when they make a claim of fact, they are insisting that their claim be given some merit.
If it were simply newbies observing what they see in the sky and posting their observations that would be one thing. But these folks are posting their conclusions, which are based on uneducated belief, as if they have any merit whatsoever. They don’t. And this site asks WHY certain people come to bad conclusions based on bad information and then REFUSE to accept the facts as they have been understood for about a century.
Chemtrails are a ridiculous hoax. I have seen no evidence to support the claims of the chemtrail hoax acceptor.
I’d be GLAD to discuss this with you.
bad in the sense that you filter it. if one cannot have the answer to all, one shall have the answer to none. knowledge is power so what i meant for you to understand was that education and knowledge are different in that education is the product of what we “should” know. parranoia is the product of people who feel powerless. why doesnt the gov. just make a nice big ol’ news event of the sampling by unbiased figures infront of an unbiased jury chosen by the conspiracy theorists and have it chemically tested and disected just to end this ongoing dispute. if your going to expose something you control, finance and test, then you can cover point A to B why you would not be lying with FACTS with full follow through live camera 2 hr broadcast and you do not leave out info as a scape goat then ppl could get on with their lives. its really a simple solution that would take no more than a day and a penny 🙂 there is a way of simple observation and background information on the behavior of chemical molecules that would differentiate between chem and contrails which is not fullproof evidence however i will better understand meteorology and what the FUCK is coming out of those planes and why they dump it along counties all over america. and why it appears so irregular from the weather i have been drawn to alll my life. oh and mr mike, since i know your organization wants to know all the info i believe i have on it to clear me of any discrepencies, its a contrail like any other BUT it disperses through the air over the SPECIFIC REGION of each county that the PLANE flew over. It tumbled down to earth as a sharp wispy mist and rolled around from points of release to connect like a circuit or two duststorms coming from either side of my hilltop house. just to clarify it did not look like dust but just a heavy fog that DID NOT behave at all like regular fog that ive known living here for the past 5 years. not only that the mist itself was lumenescent (god i hope i spelled that right). yes it appeared to refract the city light unlike fog which encloses it. and before i even delved into the conspiracy world of chemtrails i noticed my respiratory seemed to worsen. then in the week coming many of my friends including myself (note: before coming into contact with them) were sick with cold like symptoms. i cant say much else except that this was in my opinion of human origin. and any “research” topics as what their referred to by any official such as yourself, cannot be devulged to any inquiries right? why are there small planes taking off flying over the town with no further intention than landing a half hour later with all this shit flooding my town? its a waste of time, fuel and mindpower.
what
is
the
purpose?
-blueman
“if one should not accept all, all shall not be accepted.
“They don’t. And this site asks WHY certain people come to bad conclusions based on bad information and then REFUSE to accept the facts as they have been understood for about a century.”
well if u looked at it from all the ppl you call nut-jobs and lets just play pretend here. lets say we were right and you were wrong. what you just said right there would basically give yourself away as an agent. you want to find the holes that the conspiracy theorists lay out for you on the internet (the only tool for the poor population in america) and PATCH THEM. find ways to cover your ends and we probably feed u all our debates so that you may have some stupid booklet with a list given to all the hushers by the government to say this when your asked that. this whole website would be the perfect intel project. you basically would have all the practice in solidifying your defense. now back to reality. what i see is alot of potential for control. controlling others equals your survival. so those smart enough now take the reins of the obese and the ignorant in this overpopulous, resource dwindling world will probably live on while WE DIE. you yourself may not know it but there are figures out there not for the good of man anymore. We dont have heros in this world to save us from the greed and complexity that modern society is now shackled in
No matter what anyone says…those who believe in chemtrails, will continue to believe in them. If someone did sample a trail, and it showed to be negative, people would claim that it was all rigged. That’s the best part of conspiracy theorists, no matter how much they are shown to be wrong, they will insist that they are right. All while never providing evidence to support their position.
I do believe that if one reads all of the articles on this site, and uses reliable sources of information (none of the he said she said she said bullshit) they soon realize that each and every trail they see in the sky has a pretty believable and no nefarious explanation.
It’s embarrassing how little evidence there is that says the trails are the byproduct of a specific type of spraying which results in trails. I’d also like to know why people don’t suspect the planes which are not leaving trails of something. It would make more sense. They have found a way to suppress NORMAL contrail behavior! Of course, there is a logical and legitimate explanation as to why one plane will leave a trail in the “same space” as a plane that isn’t leaving a trail. But, why waste my time posting the explanation…again, when it will only be ignored.
I also believe that there are a LOT of people who could use a basic course in atmospheric science. Specifically those areas which have to do with air saturation and the variables involved.
I really hope those people didn’t die because of “chemtrails”.
Anyone want to bet he’s involved with Arizona Skywatch in some capacity?
“bad in the sense that you filter it. ”
Correct, when I see people claim that a “normal” contrail dissipates quickly while a “chemtrail” lasts for hours I KNOW they are basing certain parts of their beliefs on a FALSE statement. There are a LOT of ridiculous claims based on belief and supposition that I dismiss. Damn right I do!
well if your speaking about me being apart of anything arizonian you have it wrong but you make enough sense and i will definitely give you the dispute but there is one thing i do believe and it has to do with the morals of our government. were another great country gone in a flash. but the contrails lasting for hours part now that you mention it… wellll im not sure if it was hours but at 1130 the plane left, did its thing in a half hour to an hour. then it drifted downward and outward. then.. you know what this plane flew extremely low like many planes in my town that is semi small. some call it a city but i call it a town being from silicon valley. now i was able to sit there and watch it come down disperse FLATLY around the town and i had time to contemplate then drive to the top of our hill and watch it slowly spread across and around the town which soon i was inclusive to. my mind just keeps telling me that watervapor from jet engines doesnt mass like that nor does it sustain such visibility or lumenescence as such. so honestly im really confused. but COMPLETELY suspicious. alot of strange aerial activity and you guys say its just increase in commercial flight. well buddy this little town was one of the fastest growing cities for many years and there is a decent amount of ppl now in the interlocking counties and ive been here for 5 years only this past year have i seen such things and i live on a hill directly in front of this small noninternational airport and i see these semi-small silver planes do this and it has never occurred that they fly in these patterns where they make these big 90 degree to 180 degree turns towards the perimeter of one county and heads to the other. now these truns look like a racetrack off of nascar tv all the while in their exact route and pattern dumping this shit that doesnt appear to behave like water vapor. honestly i cant call it a chemtrail or a contrail or even a trail cuz once its upon the city it looks like fog. it looks very gascious fog however and doesnt have the same moist feeling either. from my life experience i can place my bet that strictly from what ive gathered through my childhood as an avid scientist wanting to be a million things and ever so analytical that what has been occurring this past year with aviation and weather is NOT NORMAL. but hey i probably just have some fucked up mental illness right? im a crackpot right? it could be true.
You have explained what you have seen very thouroughly. If this operation is so visible and concerning to you have you notified any air quality organization? EPA? Local weather stations? Anyone else but us? ANd why have I not heard of a town being srayed and people coming forward with increased respiratory symptoms?
I’ll tell you a little story- WHen I was in flight training in college wwe used to go out and practice simulated bomb dropping from our little planes. The “bombs” were little sacks of flour and we were trying to hit a little island in a lake. We did this for a few days and at the end of the last day someone saw us and reported it to the local news who took it as someone trying to poison the local water supply. So I would say that people are extremely observant in regards to safety and public health. ANd since there has not been any news reports of a small town that is under attack from silver circling planes I have doubts about what you think you are seeing.
“well if your speaking about me being apart of anything arizonian “:
I wasn’t.
damn right i explained it thoroughly
no i did not report it. why didnt anyone else captain? who knows what ppl are thinking but i can tell u that that is a weak emphasis for your defense. i really thought you guys would stomp that last one outta me but tis not so. you think i care if there were reports? its what ppl dont know that you use against those that are paying attention. if i didnt report it why would anyone else.. especially if it is what it might be. so really its a nice loop you have on. increased respiratory problems? im still living i didnt go to the doctor and i have appeared to gotten better but just because there arent reports doesnt mean that whatever the fuck I DID SEE didnt happen. i know what i saw and i explained it. take my word for my visual or not. its just a visual. what i said happened but the plot behind it is what im here to find out. because GOD help US all if im right.
and im ATHIEST
WHATS YOUR DUTY?
imake you said:
A couple of points come from that. Firstly, if it’s something you’ve never seen in the five years you’ve lived there, then why would you suspect it’s part of an ongoing spraying program?
Secondly, that sounds like a weather phenomenon, the way the water vapor happens to be in the air – the density and size of the drops of water making up the fog. Related to the temperatur and the humidity. You know the weather is not the same every year. For example it’s not very often that Silicon Valley gets heavy snow. But it does happen occasionally.
Now, you claim it’s related the aircraft activity? The problem here is that all we’ve got is your description. It seems very unlikely that high altitude aircraft activity could affect ground level fog, so I’m afraid that without more evidence, such as photos or video, or other eyewitness accounts of the same incident, then I’d have to think it’s a perception issue – an optical illusion or a misinterpretation.
I’ve heard several people say that the contrails descend to the ground, but nobody has even attempted to create a photo or video of this. Given that such an occurrence would be visible to millions of people, then the optical illusion explanation seems to hold the most water.
Here’s an interesting example of an atmospheric optical illusion you don’t see very often:
http://www.google.com/images?q=brocken+spectre
When people see things that look a bit odd, then some reach for an explanation. I’m sure several people, upon seeking a Brocken Spectre, think they are seeming something supernatural.
hahahahahha ok i gotta laugh at the second to last paragraph. these planes are flying under a mile and dropping that shit. these smaller-than-commercial aircraft are releasing or allowing what i have described to you to my best of memory. and yes all day these small aircraft fly around UNDER A MILE. the airport is on a small *FUCK I DIDNT WANNA USE THIS GEOGRAPHICAL TERM!! FUCK!!!!!!!* plateau with takeoff facing my hill, with the bottom of my hill only a couple hundred yards from the plateau’s base. so what im saying is small planes because of small airport and for a reason im not quite sure of they fly quite low. so what im saying is LOW ALTITUDE————–>GROUND
oh my god why did you show me those pics of some stupid fucking pyramid. i wasted 8 seconds of my life looking at those images. their photoshopped or setup or a common illusion that has a mathematical and constructural design relating to the camera. breaking white light into colors from those structural integreties and then similar shapes are a common stoop for the avg ghost hunting dumbass
The pics are of a rare, but real, atmospheric phenomenon called a Bocken Specter. I posted them as an example of something that looks odd, and that people might be willing to accept odd explanations for.
well thats nice to know its kind of like a spherical rainbow that appear ionized or something
My point being that there are odd things in the sky that are still natural, so your odd looking fog was probably just odd looking fog, unconnected to the planes.
Perhaps though you provides some photos, at least of the view you saw, with indications of the various things?
next time it happens ill shoot it your way. i know im probably telling it to the wrong guy cuz your either a hub for information or you actually know whats going on and choose not to speak, but either way its most likely for the same corporations like boeing and the gov which most of it cannot be spoken of to me by you under some time of threat of bond-breaking. anyways i have another suspicion because the same effect took place just from a different source than planes. ground-based massive releases. at least it appeared massive, but the plane drop was massive as well
oh and the unconnectedness to planes is what im pretty definite on cuz i didnt watch anything else but the plane. and i followed the chemtrail as it descended and expanded. trust me it came from the plane
“… anyways i have another suspicion”
I’ll bet you do!
imake said:
“why doesnt the gov. just make a nice big ol’ news event of the sampling by unbiased figures infront of an unbiased jury chosen by the conspiracy theorists and have it chemically tested and disected just to end this ongoing dispute”
…personally, I think its just not that big of a concern for the general public to merit such an exercise. “chemtrails” really is a fringe topic that the vast majority of people have never heard of….that is difficult to see on in the internet where Believers congregate with like-minded souls and congratulate each other on being so “aware”.
Be that as it may….Why don’t YOU- hire your own plane to sample the trails of your choosing?? Plenty of atmospheric testing planes fully capable of sampling contrails and analyzing their contents are available for hire…
Quit yer bitchin’ and go do something about it…put your money where your mouth is.
The Govt is always being castigated for wasting taxpayers money, so why would they spend more of it investigating something they know does not exist??
that’s the thing about this hoax – the perpetrators keep saying various people are taking the odfficial line and denying the existance, and ar etherefore liars. But they aren’t – they are telling the truth – they know nothing about the hoax because the hoax is a hoax!
People who say “looks like contrails to me – why do you think otherwise?” see no evidence of anything other than what 90 years of science has shown them is the case, and are asking a very basic question that never gets a decent answer.
And all that evidence is supposedly a vast conspiracy of millions of people which is revealed because a few paranoid types think the skies are different from how they remember them some years ago?
It is nonsensical – even insulting!
IMAKE:
Science doesn’t work like that. It does the best it can when faced with an infinite world. It NEVER has the answer to ALL – but it has done quite a job with life expectancy, don’t you think? I think it was during the Dark Ages that we had “the answer to none”.
Education gives you the tools to LEARN for the rest of your life. It was up to you to pick them up and make the effort.
It is not.
Paranoia is a thought process thought to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself, but a belief does not have to be persecutory to be classified as paranoid, so any number of delusional beliefs can be classified as paranoia. For example, a person who has the sole delusional belief that he is an important religious figure would be classified as having ‘pure paranoia’.
Generally speaking, existence is calm – with the exceptions of cities, motorways and airports. Our society has always sought calm, and these “mass gatherings” are always furnished with parks, gardens, waiting-rooms to provide islands of peace within the general mayhem.
So a general test to discover whether you possess a paranoia is easy to devise. Can you relax in a park? Completely? When your thoughts drift, do they drift in a peaceward direction? If they do, you aren’t paranoid. If they don’t, and if you feel worse than you did when you went in, you ARE.
That would be a pity, for the first problem you’ll discover you have is CONFIRMATION BIAS – and whoosh, before you know it, off you’ll go to inflate yourself up as a “conspiracy theorist”.
Then it’s all downhill…
And you ARE pretty powerless, if by that you mean you have little ability to change the behavior of other people, and this is good. Especially so, as you ARE paranoid…
“damn right i explained it thoroughly”
No you didn’t. You didn’t give an accurate time, or location, or provide any photros. You didn’t sample whatever it was or report it to any authorities.
And then you lept straight to the conclusion that it was suspicious??
That’s not a thorough explaination – that’s just hearsay without any verifiable supporting evidence at all.
I don’t doubt you saw something – and perhaps it was even as you describe (insofar as you describe it) – but that is, at best, nothing more than a start point for some investigation to obtain actual evidence.
my description is simple. strange fog floats down from planes contrails. explain contrails creating fog effects at land elevation.
If one cannot have the answer to all, one shall have the answer to none.
its not specifically pertaining to science. it pertains to all ways.
if the ignorance of a man cannot accept all ways, all ways shall no be accepted in eventual and continual thought processes.
in a way all im saying in that quote is that if every single way of life is unaccepted by one person that person is on the path of ignorance.
Fog from contrails eh? I’m going to go ahead and say pics or it didn’t happen. If we can provide picture after picture then you can at least give us one. The balls in your court…
Yes your descriptoin is simple – but it gives next to no information at all – what type of aeroplane? What was the land use underneath? What time of day? Where? What was the substance bening released?
these are all simple things to find out too – and without knowing at least some of them there’s not much can be said about what you saw – no-one here is a magician or a mind reader – to answer a question (did you ask a question??) requires information – a fair bit more than you seem willing to provide!
i tried pics with my phone but i just got black images. it was at 1130 the plane tookoff.
and its private aircraft
too bizzy to respond buddies/buddy?
post meridian you tard
Respond to what?
imake said: “my description is simple. strange fog floats down from planes contrails. explain contrails creating fog effects at land elevation”
I have never seen this. No one I know has ever seen this. No “chemtrail” video on youtube shows this. This is not a main tenet of the “chemtrail” claims as purveyed by the masses or the major players- Carnicom, Peterson et al….
…its just a random claim by a random person on the internet….take it for what its worth.
it came from where it came from smarty pants
Two succinct points…but neither is useful.
i took pictures of 20 min after chemtrail today and whats curious is it was right over my house inbetween the moon and i creating a “broken spectre” sadly my blackberrry takes poor pics. if you could fix the img then youd see fluffy clouds coming down from where the plane went over and the moon being encompassed by the eerily recently mentioned by you, “brocken spectre”
it was at night so i cant see much
but if you had the software capability perhaps the pics would prove informational
“i took pictures of 20 min after chemtrail today and whats curious is it was right over my house …”
No, you took a picture of a contrail. You people make statements of fact about these suppose “chemtrails” but none of you have been able to show that these trails in these pictures aren’t contrails. So, from now on, let’s refer to them as “alleged chemtrails”. Innocent until proven guilty is what I always like to say!
Quote By: imakeOPSname2? “youd see fluffy clouds coming down from where the plane went over and the moon being encompassed by the eerily recently mentioned by you, “brocken spectre””
___________________________________________________________________________________
What you saw is called a “halo”, this is caused by the light of the moon refracting and reflecting through the ice crystals in the atmosphere (the contrail you saw was made up of ice crystals). A halo can also be connected to Sun Dogs during the day. Some chemtrail theorists call Sun Dogs “chembows” because apparently they don’t understand how millions of tiny ice crystals can act like prisms.
A halo can also happen because of water droplets, for example a rainbow is the same type of effect. Also, the “glory” which is just another name for the Brocken Spectre phenomena.
Think of the ice crystals as prisms and it all makes sense.
but two planes can account for the covering of several counties with “prism” ice crystals clusters
appaently
You don’t need planes to get ice clouds. They just happened to fly through an area where conditions were good for the creation of ice crystals.
The oldest image of a halo is from the 16th century, according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog
No planes around at that time.
thats fine but it doesnt disprove the “ice crystal cloud’s” origin from the plane that i followed from point of release “contrail” to the cloud settling on the ground over the cities.
Of course it doesn’t “disprove” what you claim. You have a theory- it’s up to you to prove it. You need to purchase equipment that is capable of recording said event in a manner that we can easily view and verify. Until you provide us with that evidence the best thing we can all do on this side of the argument is believe that you are mistaken about what you see. Otherwise if we believed everything that anyone brings here we’d have a very poor chemtrail debunking site wouldn’t we.
One of the fundemental arguments of chemtrail believers is that they say ” I saw it with my own two eyes- I know what I saw and any amount of science can’t be as reliable as my own vision”
That’s a bit like running toward the “lake” you see in the desert. Yes- your eyes tell you it’s a body of water and, yes, you REALLY want it to be a body of water so you can satisfy your thirst be in reality it’s just not there. The same could be said for chemtrails. People “see” the chemtrails and often they REALLY want the chemtrails to actually exist. They are not, however, really there.
that was a terrible relation which shows how your mind works. a mirage as you described a body of water in the desert is a real life illusion with a definition of the heat reflecting off of heat waves coming off of the ground. a chemtrail is something you have yet to define.
Yeah that’s really going to help persuade someone that chemtrails are real.
Captfitches analogy with a mirage was reasonable – the mind will see what it wants to see in many situations.
Defining a chemtrail is easy – it is a contrail. There is no other definition, because chemtrails as postulaed by hte hoax simply do not exist.
You have written a whole bunch of stuff, but still can’t offer any evidene that they do. Even your own eyesight does not tell you that what you saw was a “chemtrail” – you saw something, and you don’t know what it is – those are the facts that you have presented us.
You say it is a chemtrail – that is a conclusion you have come to that has no evidence to support it – it is most definitely NOT a fact.
i can give you pics cuz you ask for them but i cant see shit in them cuz its night. even when i do offer the pics you guys ask so many ppl to provide and yet last time i said i have them you decided to resort to that it was not possible ffor anything to be in them
That’s why I told you to obtain equipment that is capable of taking pictures of what you saw. There are cameras available that can take extremely clear pictures of all sorts of things that can;t even be seen by the naked eye. My contention is that you are seeing things that aren’t all that remarkable and worrisome and are not concerning enough for you to take action. I find it odd or perhaps telling that you have commited so much effort trying to convince us of something but are not driven enough to take any further action.
To risk another analogy, it’s a bit like yelling fire in theater and getting mad at all the people because they can’t smell the smoke.
The “duplicate comments” thing is just because you click twice. I get it all the time. Your comment still goes though.
why dont you?
whats your real occupation?
so whats all the hype about this nanotechnology?! huh?! lol
I give in – what is all the hype – and how is it related to the chemtrail hoax?
why dont you tell me in what degrees fareinheit contrails form?
then tell me;
the typical altitude of commercial airliners?
the typical altitude private aircraft fly at? (4 propellors aircraft)
the percent of humidity required for contrail production?
the expansion rate of the volume of contrail (from commercial engines, as well as from private aircraft usually 4 propeller planes) from release to time (X), (e.g.-30 minutes)—-dependent on a GIVEN humidity level, altitude, wind speed(preferrably 0-10mph), and even elevation of the city may be relevant to discern the descending speed of the contrail.
uncinus
put my little math problem together that my head came up with to understand the behaviorability of persistent contrails. i want unbiased facts i will be checking your information.
sincerely
iMAKEopsNAME2
you seem to rep the smarts now lets see the numbers flow…
lol sorry elevation of my rural interlocking counties is 2500-3000.
its easy to see chemtrail activity since my rural town has become a city.
goodluck i hope you can use my formula and get back to me within a few hours
While you are waiting for Uncinus’ reply, you can play around with this nice Java applet:
http://itg1.meteor.wisc.edu/wxwise/AckermanKnox/chap15/contrail_applet.html
To convert Celsius to Fahrenheit there are plenty of online converters, like this:
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm
why dont you tell me in what degrees fareinheit contrails form?
It’s usually rounded to about -40 degrees. -40 degrees is the same for fahrenheit and celsius.
the typical altitude of commercial airliners?
That varies a lot, but commercial jets are usually around 30,000-40,000 feet. Private jets fly higher 45,000+. Obviously at some point in their flight they will pass through all altitudes between ground level and their highest point.
the typical altitude private aircraft fly at? (4 propellors aircraft)
Depends on if the cabin is pressurized or not, how far they are going, and the terrain. People generally don’t want to be using oxygen masks, so if it’s not pressurized they will stick below 12,000 feet. Usually around 5,000 feet for small planes locally. The highest I ever went in a single engine was about 9,000 flying over some mountains. If it’s pressurized then they can will fly higher, maybe 20-30,000 feet, it depends on the type of aircraft, and how far the trip is.
If you want to see some typical planes, try flightaware. Pick an airport, and zoom out to see planes leaving or approaching, then move the mouse over a plane to see the info:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KLAS
or use a smaller airport to see the private planes
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KSMO
Click on a plane any you’ll see a graph of altitude.
the percent of humidity required for contrail production?
Play with that app. Contrail can form at any humidity, but at low humidities they will quickly vanish (sublimate). For them to persist then Relative Humidity with respect to ice has to be 100% or higher, which is approximately a relative humidity of 70%
the expansion rate of the volume of contrail (from commercial engines, as well as from private aircraft usually 4 propeller planes) from release to time (X), (e.g.-30 minutes)—-dependent on a GIVEN humidity level, altitude, wind speed(preferrably 0-10mph), and even elevation of the city may be relevant to discern the descending speed of the contrail.
Got me there. That’s not really something you can apply a formula to. The spreading of a contrail comes from a variety of factors:
– the immediate expansion of compressed air from the engines
– the primary wake vorticies, both rotating, and sinking.
– the secondary wake vorticies caused by the sinking of the primary vortices
– sinking of the ice particles by gravity, depending on size
– wind shear.
Of these, by far the greatest is going to be wind shear. That’s when you get the contrails that cover the sky, as they essentially act like a very long cirrus uncinus cloud, trailing an edge across the whole sky. Note it’s shear, not speed. If the wind speed is constant and smooth, then it’s not going to spread the contrail, just move it.
The wikipedia article on wind shear actually uses cirrus uncinus clouds to illustrate it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_shear
there is a formula to it. i believe there is a formula for all ocurrences no matter how complex they might appear. and lets just say hypothetically these planes flew at 5000ft and were 4-propellor private aircraft. if the temperature outside was 45 degrees, how is it in a dry climate high desert that this can occur? mind you this state is the second dryest state out of all 50. this seems highly unlikely by means of your explanation. please
enlighten me.
Are you saying that you saw persistent contrails form behind a 4-prop aircraft at 5000 feet, when the temperature at ground level was 45 degrees? Because I don’t think that can happen. Possibly some very short-lived engine vapor, similar to car exhaust vapor.
And sure there’s a (complex) formula for everything, but only if you can accurately measure all the variables – and even then some of those variables vary by time, making a formula solution unfeasibly large. A “Monte Carlo Simulation” is your best bet there
well. if by “monte carlo simulation” you mean generate water vapor in a controlled environment and study how it behaves and compare it to what you see in the sky as well as test your worst case scenario hypothesis then yes i suppose someone of little means and a local highschool lab could do so. but as to your first question that is why i have been so persistent and im surprised after all my previous detailing you never took into account what i was saying was that exactly. anyways YES it did occur but as to what it was i have no idea. it behaved EXACTLY like the persistent contrails i see every day. the only difference is that it descended to ground level in which it would be impossible for me to compare this low-“persistent”-contrail to a regular 30000ft contrail that you can only see from miles away. i hope u understand what i have just said. but trust me i understand what persistent contrails look like and i followed the point of release from the plane and got to see its nice racetrack pattern it did over the counties.
If that’s what you saw, then it was not a contrail. Contrails are made of ice crystals, and they don’t descend to the ground. At this point there’s not a lot I can suggest without photos, or a diagram.
Could you take a photo of the area you say, and draw in a rough approximation?
Maybe you could do some Google Image search, and see if someone else had a similar photo?
Mosquito spraying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQvJ32ySg04&feature=related&hd=1
C-130 on exercises?
http://www.aviationspectator.com/image/photos/military-aircraft/transports/c-130-hercules/c-130-hercules-369
In a Monte Carlo Simulation, you try to simulate (usually in a computer) what is happening, and you run the simulations many times with random numbers across the ranges of uncertainty. The results give you a range of what might happen, or some other information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method
You use it for things that are A) too hard to work out, or B) have too many unknowns.
The reason I suggested it for calculating contrail persistence is that the large number of variables makes the equations complex, and the available measurements are very approximate.
It’s still not particularly practical though. In your case it’s quite sufficient to note that it’s impossible for a contrail to form and persist under the conditions you describe.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING!! lol
but it did occur which means something other than contrails. i would love to send pics but i took none knowingly that contrails at night were never gathered on my shitty blackberry. ive attempted at night b4 and it is simply black. however drawing it for you would be cake i can see it in my head. i looked at both and not only was it not relevant to the exercise of the c130 shooting flares or the other large airline spraying a fine black mosquito spray. it was just like contrails except once it was on ground it was like fog however it was not moist like fog nor did it enclose light like fog does. it was more of a heavy FINE mist that was very refractable and luminescent over the always ON city lights. it did not waver in higher areas like fog would, it only descended as a blanket upon itself not much higher than 100ft. again a very fine mist unlike fog. so…
you cant answer this and neither can i. but to be frank the possibilities should nullify some of your beliefs for if it is not natural then the next reason are these patents that the nutjobs are talking about. i guess they believe this town to be very dumb, as do i.
oh sorry and it was NOT c130 or any other large aircraft. 4 propellor prop plane under 5000 that is all. its ocurred directly over my house as if intentional almost that or im just centered on the border between to closely locked counties and that it is part of the chemtrailing instruction. or…. hmm i dont see any other options. well id like to know what it was coming out of all those planes all these days. and now when im ever so involved with this that i have pondered for under a year since i believe its fairly new to smaller cities in rural areas. maybe if i check the population i could see a connection between other counties with similar symptoms elsewhere that have reached the same population marker. or other significant intelligence asset im unaware of.
SO it had four propellers?
NO private aircraft currently in use uses four propellers.
The ONLY and I repeat ONLY aircraft that has four props is a military aircraft.
Of course I can be missing some options but here are your choices when you see a four engine, prop driven plane:
Most common- C130, military only
P3 Orion- sub hunter- military only.
B17, or B24- only a handful still flying, all private owned used for display and stuff- look up the Commemoritive Air Force.
NONE of THOSE will generate trails of any kind except C130s releasing anti missile flares.
The last option which is what I think you saw was a fire fighting aircraft dropping water or suppressant probably for practice.
I don’t know how you could EVER see an aircraft drop any kind of anything that would be able to float down to ground level and form a fog. The amount of liquid or whatever that they dropped would have to be many, many times greater than the mass of the aircraft. Like on the order of hundreds of times the mass of the aircraft.
Just watch fire fighting operations and see how the chemicals or water nearly dissappear before they reach the ground. The plane would have to be within a couple hundred feet of the ground to create a fog or anything, Period. Patents don’t matter in the face of regular old physics. If the aircraft was low enough to drop something to cover any area of ground it would be noticed by anyone and not just “the ones with thier eyes open.”
And once again- you only have a camera on your phone yet you own a computer? Seriously- my daughters cheapo camera will take good pics even at night, especially if you shoot in manual mode. Please- man up and bring some pics to the table of this whole thing. I’m afraid my patience in this matter is wearing thin.
Ok- I should have phrased the first part better. Any aircraft currently flying that has four props was, at one, point military but may not currently be military. Sorry. There were no “private” aircraft munufactured that had four prop driven engines.
And yes, I realize that there were several commercial aircraft made such as the DC6 and so on but I don;t believe that the commercial aircraft like those were converted to tankers or saved for commemorative flying.
Sorry Capt – but there are a few other 4 engined civilian prop planes – DHC-7, over a dozen Electra’s in service according to Wiki, civilian version of the C-130 the L-100 – over 100 made and also various C-130’s operated by civilian agencies, and of recent origin is the AN-70.
And if you really want to get obscure a Short Belfast was still operating for Heavy Lift in January 2010, apparently a couple of Viscounts still flying in Africa, and a dH heron or 2 were still operating in the Pacific not more than 10 years ago & may still be around somewhere 🙂