Update: If you are looking for a debunking of Why In The World Are They Spraying, first check out this post, as the second film really depends on the first being true, then have a look at the various errors in Why In The World Are They Spraying, detailed here:
http://metabunk.org/threads/712-Factual-Errors-in-quot-Why-In-The-World-Are-They-Spraying-quot
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The documentary film “What in the World are They Spraying“, by Michael J. Murphy, attempts to promote the Chemtrail Conspiracy Theory (which states that long lasting contrails are actually the result of secret government spray operations), and proposes a possible explanation: that the trails are part of a geoengineering project involving injecting large amounts of aluminum into the atmosphere to block the suns rays.
Multiple parallel trails over Mt Shasta, California. Taken in 1989, ten years before the chemtrail operations were supposed to have begun.
The basic premise of the film is:
- Normal Contrails fade away quickly
- Scientists have talked about geoengineering using aluminum sprayed from planes
- Since 1999, trails have been observed to persist for a long time
- Tests in various locations at ground level have found different levels of aluminum
- Monsanto has genetically engineered aluminum resistant crops
- The government denies any spraying or geoengineering is going on
- THEREFORE: The trails are aluminum being sprayed as part of a secret government geoengineering project.
Normal contrails can persist and spread
That reasoning is somewhat suspect even if you accept all the points. But where it really falls down is that it’s based on a false assumption – that “normal” contrails quickly fade away. In reality, normal contrails can persist for hours and spread out to cover the sky. Whether they do this or not is entirely dependent on the atmospheric conditions that the plane is flying through, so it depends on the weather, and on the altitude of the plane. This is something that has been observed since 1921. Just look at any book on the weather, like this one from 1981:
They tested sludge, not water
So the film is based on a false premise and builds upon it to an inevitable false conclusion. But what about the aluminum tests? You can find the tests referenced in the film here:
https://contrailscience.com/files/chemtrails_basic_lab_report.pdf
And this is the one shown in the film, which they claim should be pure water:
Pond with low aluminum in the sediment. The film mistakenly claims the level are high by comparing them to water levels. Note the rocks (8% aluminum) that line the edges, and the bottom.
The bottom line here is that they are testing sludge rather than water. Sludge is water mixed with dirt. Dirt is naturally 7% aluminum. That’s all they are finding.
The first aluminum result is from the pond, discussed at the start of part 3, and it’s 375,000 ug/l. What they don’t mention is that it’s from pond sediment, sludge. So essentially it’s not testing water, but is instead testing the amount of aluminum in soil. So that’s 375 mg/kg for sediment that has settled in a pond over several years. That’s actually quite low. Aluminum concentration in soil ranges from 0.07% to 10%, but is typically 7.1%, or 71,000 mg/kg. The amount of aluminum found in the sludge is quite easily explained by windblown dust. It’s low, probably because it’s a new pond, so a lot of the sediment is vegetable matter.
Then there are the rain readings. 33, 262, 650, 188, 525, 881, 84, 815, 3450, 2190 ug/L. Wildly different values, some high sounding, some low. But no details are provided that correlate these different numbers of contrail activity. If this variation were due to aerial spraying, then surely a match would be found. These numbers simply tell us that different tests produced different results. It does not tell us why. No details of the sampling procedure are given, or the weather conditions preceding the test. Nor are we told what are the expected levels of aluminum to be found under these conditions.
Rain gauge used for the aluminum test. Note the mounting bracket appears to be made from aluminum.
Rain water contains particulates from airborne dust. The amount of particulates will vary greatly based on the weather. A sample from a brief intense storm after a dry period would give you more particulates than a sample taken in the middle of several days of rain. The amount of particulates in the sample would also vary with how long the container is left out in the open. Dust will settle on the container if it’s left out for a while, increasing the amount of aluminum found. All these tests are really telling us is how much dust the sample was contaminated with.
How much aluminum is there in the dust? Let’s say it’s about the same as the amount of aluminum in soil (although it’s probably higher). How much dust is there in rain? According to Edward Elway Free of the the United State Bureau of Soils, in his book “The Movement of Soil Material by the Wind“, in tests performed by Tissandier, rain water contained 25,000 to 172,000 ug/L of particulates. But he notes “As the amounts of rain and snow which fell in the various cases are not given, the figures are of little value. The first drops of a rain storm will of course contain the largest percentage of dust, and as the storm continues the air is gradually wasted clean.”. Still if only 1% of the lowest figures there were aluminum, then that’s still 250 ug/L. And at a quite plausible 10% of the upper range, that’s 17,200 ug/L. A range that easily covers the observed test results.
See also the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, VOl 4, 1967, which shows Aluminum found in rain in the range 520 ug/L to 1,120 ug/L, over 13 different tests. This shows that the results in 1967 (when presumably there were no chemtrails) are pretty much the same as the results the WITWATS is getting. Nothing unusual.
Tens of thousands of time the “maximum limit” for water. Sure. But you were not testing water, you were testing dirt
The soil tests are where a typical mistake is made – conflating the percentage of the metal in one substance (soil) with the typical percentages in others. As noted, soil aluminum naturally ranges from 0.07% to 10%, and is typically around 7.1%, which is 71,000 mg/kg. The tests from Oregon (see sheet 16 in the pdf) list quite ordinary results for soil of 18,600 to 38,000. But then they note the results are “Tens of thousands of times the maximun limit for water“, which is true, but they are not testing water, they are testing soil, and it less than half the normal value for soil.
They continue this on the next page, with a low soil aluminum value of 10,500 mg/kg (just 1% aluminum), and yet note: “Near playground Sisson Elementary 300‘ away”. As if this is somehow dangerous to children. It’s just normal soil, as found in any playground, anywhere, ever.
Aluminum is everywhere, in various quantities
- Aluminum is the most abundant metallic element in the earth’s crust, about 8% of the ground is aluminum. In some places, like the Hawaiian islands, it’s 30-60%!
- Aluminum is everywhere, in the food we eat, and the air we breath (as dust)
- Aluminum is in daily contact with us, in soda cans, cookware, aluminum cooking foil, construction, transportation, baseball bats, etc.
- The amount of aluminum in any location varies naturally. In some places there is a lot, in others there is very little.
- Contamination of samples with aluminum is very common due to it’s abundance and common usage. Unless careful control samples are taken, then the results are often wildly inaccurate.
- One of the tests in the film was water collected by a schoolgirl in a mason jar. Mason jars occasionally have aluminum lids
- Another was taken from a ski area snow pack in early summer. Skis, ski grooming equipment, and ski towers use aluminum. (Update: it is not an active ski area, so more likely it’s just dirt contamination, as the sample was taken in July)
- Aluminum is a common ingredient in antiperspirants and antacids such as Mylanta.
Aluminum resistent crops have been a goal for 100 years
And knowing that aluminum is very common will also answer why Monsanto would want to develop aluminum resistent crops. It will increase yields in areas with acidic soil. Given the ubiquitous presence of aluminum in the ground, and the fact that aluminum ion levels (Al3+) due to soil acidity have been a known problem for a hundred years , it’s hardly surprising that someone would try to make crops have a higher resistance to it. Here’s the Botanical Gazette of the University of Chicago, Volume 71, page 159, from 1921.
Note the reference at the bottom: “Aluminum as a factor in soil fertility”. Note also they are discussing how to “reduce the toxicity of aluminum salts” in the ground. So if scientists were doing it 90 years ago, then why exactly is it somehow suspicious that they are doing it now? For more discussion, see:
http://metabunk.org/threads/341-Debunked-Monsanto-s-Aluminum-Resistant-GMOs-and-Chemtrails
Discussing ≠ Doing
Finally, what of the government discussions of geoengineering, and their denials that anything is going on? Exactly. What of it? They discuss geoengineering because it’s something that people might actually want to do in the future, so we’d better talk about it now, so we can figure out what problems might occur. The concerns about health effects and effects on the environment are perfectly valid concerns, but they are not evidence that a spraying program is currently underway.
Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif), chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has no idea what you are talking about, because there is no government geoengineering project, just a few scientists talking about it.
And the most reasonable explanation for why they deny they are doing it because they are not actually doing it. The congressmen interviewed in the film claim they they are not familiar with it because they are not familiar with it. They don’t want to talk about it because they don’t know anything about it. There’s nothing sinister going on there. The congressmen are simply not familiar with this one particular theoretical geoengineering method (or probably any theoretical geoengineering method), so when they are buttonholed by someone who rather intensely asks them if they approve of it, then it’s quite understandable they don’t want to talk to him.
The film presents the conferences on geoengineering as if they are somehow secret and clandestine operations that need to be revealed to the public. In reality, geoengineering of this type has been discussed for at least sixty years. It’s hardly covered up, as the discussion has been constantly in the news, often front page news, since 2006, and has been making occasional mainstream news stories since the 1980s, with thousands of publicly accessible research papers over the last sixty years. There’s no evidence anyone was doing it sixty years ago, there’s no evidence anyone was doing it in 2006, and as far as anyone can tell, nobody is doing it now. Denials are not admissions, and discussing something is not the same as doing it.
I don’t want to make this article too long, but I’ve noticed a few more problems with the documentary, see the comment section for more info.
I was joking about Poland, YOU aren’t joking about your belief in “chemtrails”.
I win.
Chemtrails are not the matter of believe but knowledge. My goal is not to convince people like you, because you are here to make this phenomena laughable and this is your job. You win for now because you think you are part of the elite. But all the elites ends up the same, like Roman Empire, like German Empire and now like American Empire. Just watch. In few years from now perhaps you will grow up and see the changes that chemtrails do, when all it will be to eat is a GMO.
“Chemtrails are not the matter of believe but knowledge.”
Oh, you seem to possess knowledge. In this case, could you give me a reference on a laboratory experiment that showed how spraying aluminum, or barium, or other chemicals induces the condensation of non-saturated water vapor from the atmosphere in the form of droplets or ice crystals. A peer-reviewed publication, please. Without reading it I am not going take your words seriously.
You have as much “knowledge” about “chemtrails” as you do about leprechauns and unicorns.
You have accepted the hoax as it was designed. I don’t blame you. Shitty journalism and gullible production companies create all sorts of hoaxes to sell themselves as credible. But, peer review is what’s really important.
Personally, I think William Thomas deserves a Pulitzer for exposing the gullibility and ignorance of so many about so many subjects. Simple and basic science being one of them.
This hoax has consumed MANY…and I waste way too much more time than I’d care t admit on it, but I MUST expose the virus of ignorance this “chemtrail” hoax has created.
There is NO EVIDENCE that anything is being sprayed on us as far as the trails go. People can link the trails to anything the imagination can create, but without peer reviewed scientific evidence to support the claims, claims are all they will remain. It’s a silly hoax.
Perhaps we should not call it chemtrails, but Geo-engineering, that sounds more proper and it can’t be called hoax or conspiracy as there are plenty of documents like Hughes Aircraft Patent or others.
You are not wasting your time to convince people that chemtrails are conspiracy, you are doing it for the money and it looks like you are doing it in pairs, so you look stronger than me for example. Every time I say something there are 2 immediate replays from two of you guys. And you are telling me that you are wasting your time on it? This is your job, so you must doing it.
As for the evidence there are tons of it and their are going to be more, as we got some really good ideas that will be imploded very soon.
I am not going to tell you how we are gathering evidence because we want to be ahead of you.
Geoengineering is something else entirely.
The trails themselves are contrails, or “alleged chemtrails”.
You are accusing me of using known scientific fact to make money. please provide evidence to support this ridiculous accusation. I simply understand that t there are nutty folks who are slinging around ridiculous accusations against people I happen to know, love and respect.
This is a great place to discuss the ‘evidence’ that you claim to have . Please read the articles listed on the left to cover any and all “beliefs” about the trails in the sky. If you find something that we haven’t covered or would like to discuss any of the information here that you find to be in error. please let us know! But coming here and making paranoid nonsense claims about people being paid to accept the well understood and widely publicized and available knowledge as fact is ridiculous.
You SHOULD have to prove the claims you make. Go ahead and enjoy the right to lie about your fellow man and accuse them of wrongdoing when you couldn’t possibly know if we are actually being sprayed with anythin.
It woudl be something entirely different if you had to actually back up your ridiculous accusations with evidence. How dare you.
It is pretty obvious what are you doing here and the prove speaks through your mouth. You are sitting here and trying to get rid of people like me, why else would you be wasting so much time for this discussion, to prove me wrong. You know that am right and that is why you are so upset.
Geo-engineering is the same as chemtrails, it is spraying metals into the atmosphere to affect everything.
And now let me ask you a question. How dare you? By than I don’t mean you personally, but the people you work for.
Hoe dare you spraying us with all that crap and trying to make this into conspiracy?
Well and this is how it goes, you didn’t like my last post, so you didn’t put it out there, which means you do work here. You run out of arguments and so the discussion is over I think since am banned. That’s how you people are doing it, just for the money.
Wojciech,
TheFactsMatter is often upset about the stubborn claims encountered here from time to time. It’s human.
And note there are not only two, there are a whole bunch of people answering sometimes, not for money, but to spread sanity which is enough motivation.
But even if every single hobby pilot, commercial pilot, air traffic controller, meteorologist and aircraft mechanic hanging out around here were really a paid government agent (from all over the world, I’m German BTW) – you still did not point out which of the facts presented in the articles here is wrong.
It’s up to you.
What money?! You are claiming that someone is taking money to post scientific fact in a methodical and well researched format. and then provides an open and public forum to discuss it in…That’s a pretty heavy accusation. Do you have evidence to support your claim? Nothing you have spewed has in any way shaped my beliefs in this matter because you haven’t provided anything more than an accusation. i have to wonder why.
Wojciech,
this was a good example of your way of thinking, wasn’t it? Two different people questioned you, and you instantly came with a new conspiracy: “You are sitting here and trying to get rid of people like me”.
Well, I am not trying to get rid of you. On the contrary, I asked you a specific question and would like to get a definitive answer. You, however, are avoiding answering it.
BTW I have now idea about who TheFactsMatter is, apart that he is a regular visitor of this website. As for myself, I am a Russian-born scientist, living in the UK, and, by the nature of my occupation, a sceptic. I would not take for granted any new for me information, but I can recognize science when I see it. I have no problems with the information on this site, because it is readily verifiable. It is the “chemtrail hypothesis” that lacks the elementary scientific basis.
Alexy, JFDee-
It’s nice to know more about you (so much international inclusion here!) and in case you haven’t read it several times I’m a US citizen who flies “private” jets- more appropriately charter jets. Of all the people who post here besides Ryan who never posts here anymore I’m the only one who operates in the environment that we’re all discussing. Plus I feel like, aside from Uncinus and MikeC, I’m the only one with an extensive aviation background.
I wish this was ny job to debunk chemtrails. I could do this all day.
Can someone please explain to us why aircraft secretly “spraying” at 30,000 feet or higher do it out in the open for all to see, instead of waiting for an intervening overcast sky to block the view from ground observers? Maybe its true as my puppet friend Zeke Daniels said a while back, that the pilots “are getting careless or perhaps just showing off”. 😉
captfitch,
I’m aware that you represent the professional pilots here, and I think it adds quite a lot of credibility to the bunch of “bunk busters” here 🙂
My area of operation is rather the troposphere, so I will hardly ever be able to generate a contrail. That said, I couldn’t even make one if flying at 36000 feet, since the plane has no engine …
I’m just doing some glider flying but – at least in Germany – the theroretical exam is hardly any different from the one for motor licenses. My longest flight was five hours, but there are some cracks in our club who on good days will come back in the evening after seven-hour flights and 400 km (215 nm) distance covered. With no fuel spent but some current in our electrical winch for the first 1000 feet of altitude.
I also have several solo hours on a touring motor glider which has navigation equipment superior to many a Cessna.
I’m no scientist, but my world view is based on science. I find recent irrational tendencies in “modern” societies worrying and fascinating at the same time.
I like clouds.
TFM,
I apologize for missing a typo in my previous post (I was about to retire to bed at the time). I meant to say that I have no idea who you are (and I don’t give a damn about this 🙂 ).
captfitch,
it’s nice to know more about you too. I have been visiting this site for the last two moths, but I haven’t finished reading all threads yet.
I happen to agree with Wojciech Partyka when he says “Chemtrails are not the matter of believe but knowledge.”
It is only by actually showing some knowledge of what constitutes evidence and scientific process that anyone is ever going to convince me that a conspiracy exists,.
And no one has done that for chemtrails. I have seen some attempts that superficially look useful – until any thought is put into what they actually are. AS soon as that happens they are shown to be nonsense.
Mostly the chemtrail hoaxers have no idea what constitutes “knowledge” – so claims like Wojciech’s are again superficially fine – but useless in practice because htey are not actually sincre.
Wojciech – show us some actual “knowledge” – something that we can know because it is backed up by verifiable evidence – and we will be yours.
Simple really.
But I have an opinion that it is impossible to do concerning chemtrails.
As for what we all do for a living – I trained as an aircraft mechanic straight out of school – 737’s, F-27’s and a few DC-3’s that were still around. I have worked for 2 airlines (other a/c were BAe-146’s and DHC-8’s) and a 3rd party maintenance organisation. For those organisations I have worked as maintenance planer and as a quality assurance auditor. I am currently employed by national aviation authority of my country (which is not in the America’s or Europe).
Y’all probably have some scheme of compulsory reporting of incidents – I supervise the team that receives those reports here and makes them into something sensible – honestly – there is a lot of drivel written by “Aviation professionals”! 🙂
I don’t fly other than trivially as a passenger – but if chemtrails were real I would have to have been part of the conspiracy, and I choose to be personally insulted by anyone who alleges that.
It appears that Wojciech is very excited about being invited to present his knowledge on “monitoring chemtrails in the USA and Poland” at the first Polish conference on “chemtrails” (http://januszzagorski.pl/2010/12/07/chemtrails-pierwsza-w-polsce-konferencja/). They also invited as a speaker, a professional chemist who has 150 patents.
Wojciech,
if you are reading this, could you please pass on this chemist and other participants my question: “How spraying chemicals in the atmosphere causes the condensation of non-saturated water vapor?”
There can be no doubts that those long white trails in the sky are clouds made mostly from the atmospheric water; the total mass of particles and droplets inside just one of them is many times greater than the mass of a fully loaded jumbo jet.
Memo to Management
There is a map of the conference venue location. Can we dispatch a dedicated spraying squad? Beware of “działkiem orgonowym”!
Faithinscience – no, The factsmatter:
Much, much more.
Possibly by FOUR powers of ten.
You should read the “Contrails to Cirrus” link more carefully.
What motivates “chemtrailers”? Well, apart from the usual motivations of apophenia and difficulty with logical thinking, may I offer FINANCE?
Using “Adsense” it is quite possible to stimulate an INCOME by supporting unprovable claims, and giving the WORTHLESS a justification for their existence, on a YouTube website.
I enclose a portion of a letter from a friend of mine who gives a clue:
“My friend gets about $2000 a week just from silly youtube vids that are popular and he knows some folk that get 200K per year and more.
They gave up their regular jobs and just do youtube vids.
So I thought a little ufo conspiracy is a bit of spooky fun & more harmless than chemtrails and is a positive optimistic pro life thing rather than negative like chemtrails.
There are some standard procedures for people making money out of youtube vids. Don’t argue yourself unless you use a false identity and don’t block. The more arguments = the more views and the more revenue they get.
So by you and me et al arguing just sends more money to nuffrespect and other chemtrail hoaxers.
Interesting eh.
That is why skywitness and others try to lure people to their vids… to make money from adsense once their vids get enough views.”
What galls me is the rather late realization that EVERY ONE of these, er, people accused me at some time or other of being a PAID SHILL, normally of the US gov’t.
You have to laugh. “Chemtrails” are one of the RICHEST sources of IRONY the world holds…
Hello everyone.
First of I would like to excuse my poor spelling, im am a dyslexic and english is not my original language..
I would also describe myself as someone who has been caught up in many so-called conspiracy theories.
It is nothing I’d would rather preffered than have them all debunked. And this site have almost turnd me over, when it comes to chemtrales at least..
I have been reading almoste all the above, and would like to belive that my self, and my fellow “gullebuls”, have been led to misunderstanding.
I can only thank you, who have contributed with so mutch of ur time, effort and knowlegde, so that me, and the likes of me, can be rigtly informed.
But this point exakt..
Who are you, JazzRoc, TheFaktsMatter, MikeC, Uncinus, and more, who so freely contributes of your time and energy to us ignorantes who “would like to” belive this theoris??
As i see, you have been on this blog for months, and writing tons of stuff, and found links and information worth many days worth of work.
How is it you bother?
I have to admit thet my paranoid head gives my pictures of a few state employees sitting at ther desck doing ther jobs..
Maby u realy just are pshynonyms and debunkers…
If u are..fore the love of God and al thet is holy, cuit ur jobs and start working fore peace, love and the continuans av life on earth and a better world.
But if you realy are your self on this site; Thank You!
but answer my this, JazzRoc, TheFaktsMatter, MikeC, Uncinus, ets. Wy bother???
It’s a hobby.
Why would someone bother to collect stamps? Why would someone bother to watch television? It’s the same thing.
I wrote a more detailed post about this here:
http://metabunk.org/content/122-Why-Debunk
Why wouldn’t I bother? I see many people who are very confused about certain subjects and are accusing others of wrongdoing when they are doing no wrong. I have a moral responsibility to ask for better evidence.
This hoax has caused a lot of unnecessary stress.
Why I bother is outlined in post 420
Frankly if we were debating some other topics I would probably post just as much. I’m more interested in the process of discovering, examination, and logic than chemtrails really. It’s just that I can come here and have a fun debate and it happens to be in my area of expertise. Plus when someone here consults me for some real aviation info it gives my ego a boost.
It’s not surprising to see a lack of empathy from a conspiracy theorist. Like, it’s OK for them to spend all their time looking into them and believing them but it’s impossible to imagine that someone might be doing the same on the other side of the fence.
Tom,
I myself am motivated by growing worries about a tendency to deny and decry science in the so-called developed countries. I thought about the mechanisms of this process, and I’m convinced that the Internet did in fact amplify this tendency.
It’s as easy to spread bunk as it is to spread knowledge. Since the bunk is usually more fascinating and attractive than the debunking, there is a heavy imbalance between those two.
Sites like this are essential counterweights. I’m posting here because I’m a hobby pilot and have learned a thing or two about the atmosphere, both before receiving the license and afterwards on many flights.
Now, if there was just a single poster replying to comments, people would probably be even more suspicious, justified or not. If you read the first exchanges attached to older articles, you can see that Uncinus was pretty much on his own at the time.
Having a bunch of other interested participants around is often refreshing and should be a bit reassuring. If you suspect that all exchanges here may be staged, even the sometimes hefty discussions among the “debunkers”, then there is not much left to convince you of the opposite.
In that case I just wish you would apply the same level of scrutiny to postings of conspiracy proponents.
Uncinus, i just want to say thanks for this site and i’m glad i came across it in my searches.
I must admit, i’m a pretty hardcore conspiracy buff, and tend to believe different theories, some without as much personal research into than others. this chemtrail theory being one of the little research ones. that is, til i finally started college (26 now, so a little late to it), and wanted to do one of my papers on it. researching for that is what lead me here, and i have no doubt this site will be used a lot and be extremely useful. only problem is, i don’t think i’ll be able to use it as a legitimate source, seeing as how it seems it’s just a personal endeavor of yours and not an organization or journal, newspaper, government, etc… you get my drift…. alot of documents and articles and what not mentioned throughout the spectrum of this theory, i have the legit sources for, but i would really like to know where i can get a copy of those tests you debunked in this thread/post. i know you have the link for them on your site, but are they on, say, basiclabs website too?? and if so could you provide a link? or maybe dane wigingtons personal site if he has one and has the tests on there? i would really like to get a copy from one of those two sources, then maybe get my teacher to put me in contact with someone she trusts in the field to personally look over the tests and analyze them for me.
i can say that i have actually found one admission by NASA about a 2003 test they did with TMA off the eastern seaboard. other than that, everything on chemtrails seems to be speculation. and with your site and all the old photos and stuff you’ve posted, i can pretty much safely say you’ve helped put my mind at ease, atleast until some kind of military documents happen to be leaked 😛 lol
thanks again
Adam
Adam what was the NASA test in 2003? Do you have a link to it?
I got them from here
http://ihost.nu/lucifer741/public/chemtrails/1/public/chemtrails/
http://ihost.nu/lucifer741/public/chemtrails/chemtrails_basic_lab_report.pdf
I just found them with an internet search (Google OCR’s scanned PDFs). I don’t know who owns that site.
However, you can match them all to the tests shown in the video in most instances.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/20jun_tmaclouds/
Not the same thing at all. Contrails form at around 10km.
is the tma and it’s subsequent byproducts truly harmless as said in the article? can’t seem to find a good breakdown/explanation of it with a “cdc trimethylaluminum” google search
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylaluminium
MSDS: http://www.praxair.com/praxair.nsf/AllContent/7981F9201C63A3BA852575BC006B528E/$File/p6282b.pdf –
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
DANGER! Pyrophoric, flammable liquid and vapor.
Ignites on contact with air.
Harmful if inhaled or swallowed.
May cause eye, skin, and respiratory tract burns.
Reacts violently with water or atmospheric moisture.
Decomposes into irritating dust that may cause liver and kidney damage.
Self-contained breathing apparatus and protective clothing
must be worn by rescue workers.
Under ambient conditions, this is a colorless liquid.
and
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: Aluminum oxide dust, CO, CO2
Looks like the harmful aspect is that the Al2O3 is in dust form simply because the dust is an irritant – lung damage noted above is what happens if you inhale too much of any dust – see also Shaver’s Disease.
Kidney damage is apparently a problem for patients when it enters their kidneys during dialysis – see http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/al.htm .
I can’t imagine that any released at 90,000m or above (ie above 300,000 feet) is going to do too much harm to anyone – by the time it reaches sea level, if it ever does, it’s doign to make no noticeable difference to the amount of aluminium dust already blowing around!
And from the article:
Adam, are you seriously trying to raise a point here? Trimethylaluminium sounds like a nasty chemical, but it just Aluminum, Carbon, and Hydrogen, and when exposed to air forms various compounds that are found naturally in the millions or quintillion of tons on earth.
And really, what’s the connection with the chemtrail theory? This is a rocket, practically in space.
Plus those pesky secret science dudes told everyone they were doing it.
Reading what has been said, I’d like to synthetize the debate and make a point. I’ll post it on my website too so people can follow the discussion (www.carpediemmagic.blogspot.com).
We can argue on and on on proofs of chemtrails and their alleged residues on the ground. But the thing is we CAN’T PROVE YET THAT THEY AREN’T REAL NOW. Talking about chemtrails reality is reasonable, in fact ignoring and dismissing it totally IS cognitive dissonance.
Why? No one can’t say for sure that every plane that takes off isn’t equipped to do chemtrails. For that, a thorough investigation of the material of each one that takes off in the world would be needed, and the documentary team are the first to point out that airport companies aren’t cooperative. So we have to join together and ask to get those reports, assumed they check it (if not OBLIGE it, ask our representatives to demand that).
Also, we can suppose they are real when government officials say they are doing it and avoid the debate. In 2009, “President Obama’s science adviser John P. Holdren stated publicly that the federal government was going to increase geoengineering, perhaps to include spraying “pollutants” into the upper atmosphere to retard global warming (my note: which would be a hoax, by the way, the sun warms the earth see http://www.nzcpr.com/guest116.htm). (…) Holdren conceded the possibility of “grave side effects”. (Source : Jim Marrs and a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXZhyf57Xyc)
There ARE LOTS OF PROOFS that planes have been spraying without telling the population in the past, 1/3 of cancers in Winnipeg are said to come from that. Here’s one of the articles about it :
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/08/08/chemtrails.aspx
I’d like to believe that there’s no chemtrail. I’d be the first to say : Yes, great! What a relief, they’re not using them anymore. But unfortunately there are strong chances that they are real. I can’t blind my eyes with that, I don’t want people, and my kids, to suffer from it because I haven’t do nothing…
Aside from that, chemtrails or contrails, they have impact on temperature, even NASA tells to report them (http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/importance.html). In my city, in Canada, the summer is constantly clouded by them, and I don’t want that, we need all the sun we can get here.
The least we can do is spread the truth about what has been found on alleged chemtrails. Also, what find if they are linked to HAARP, Morgellons disease and other diseases. If there aren’t enough scientific facts, let’s study it further. But I don’t want to be a part of the sick things going on in the world.
Let us all be honest with ourselves, see all sides, join together to find the truth, and demand corrective actions from our governments if, like I think, it’s needed.
thanx!
Can you explain how someone saying they are going to do something in the future is evidence that they have done it in the past?
Okay, quickly, the other way around : Can it be proven they haven’t done it? With all due respect, no.
Like I said, they have done it in the past, covered. We found about it afterwards. They are still doing it according to a 300 pages reports called Case orange. So here are some facts, surprising ones, and there’s more to know about when all will be public and maybe with wikileaks too :
Many Americans have reported seeing or feeling chemical mists fall from the sky during chemtrail spray episodes. Chemtrail investigator Will Thomas reports that people hit by these mists usually become gravely ill within 48 hours.
Thomas tells of hiker Joe Burton in Tennessee who, in 1998, was sprayed by a plane leaving a heavy toxic fog at tree-top level. Burton contracted symptoms similar to Gulf War Illness. Strange chemicals had entered his lungs, attacking his liver, gallbladder and kidneys. He was also found to have a very rare flu-like virus that was tracked to Geneva, Switzerland, home of the World Health Organization.
Congressional hearings of 1975, 1977 and 1994 confirm in nauseating detail that our illustrious Department of Defense has used the American population as hapless guinea pigs since WWII. Rutgers professor Leonard Cole collected from US military records a horrifying list of biological and chemical agents furtively tested on American and Canadian civilian populations.
In 1999, Jonathan Moreno of Clinton’s Committee on Human Radiation Experiments, also confirmed in his book Undue Risk decades of murderous military-intelligence experimentation on civilians without their knowledge or consent.
In 1953, an odious series of 36 tests was conducted on citizens of Winnipeg in Canada. Our government lied to the Winnipeg mayor, assuring him that the tests were nontoxic and defense-necessary. The actual purpose of these CIA-designed tests was to see how large a percentage of the population could be given chemical-induced cancer.
Our spray planes and spray trucks saturated the people of Winnipeg with the carcinogen zinc cadmium sulfide, the same chemical sprayed on many American cities. By calculating the number of people who subsequently came into medical clinics complaining of sore throats, bronchial problems and ringing ears, the test-masters determined that had the chemical not been watered down, they could have induced cancer in one-third of the Winnipeg population.
Captain Joyce Riley stood before a group of government officials last year in Louisiana where the military was determined to conduct open air germ tests, against the vociferous will of the people. She boldly told them that the only acts of terrorism ever conducted on American soil have been perpetrated by our own government. Never were truer words spoken!
(Amy Worthington)
————————————
May 29, 2010, Ghent, Belgium: The Belfort Group hosted an international symposium titled:
The Illegal Spraying Of Harmful Substances In The Atmosphere By Airplanes Also Known As ‘Chemtrails
(…)
Highlight was the presentation of “Case Orange”. This 300-page scientific report (with 177 footnotes) was
commissioned by the Belfort Group. In the absence of legal protection for whistleblowers, an international team of
“inside experts”, remained anonymous in order to safely and effectively author the most useful data possible to the
public domain.
Vereecke has personally delivered the “Case Orange” document to the Brussels headquarter of UNO and NATO, as well as the embassies of the USA, UK, Germany, France, Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela and elsewhere.
On August 17, 2009 Peter Vereecke “personally lodged a complaint with the Belgian Justice department
against the intentional and systematically spraying of heavy metals, chemical substances and virological filth into our atmosphere.” As a result of Vereecke’s activism, there is “an ongoing investigation into the Chemtrail issue.
Aerospace engineer, Dr. Coen Vermeeren presents an informal peer-review of the 300 page research document “Case Orange”, commissioned by the Belfort Group. http://saive.com/BELFORT.html
But this is about those white trails that are left behing jets. Those that sometimes persist and spread.
The question is if they are being created deliberately. The answer is that there is no evidence that they are, and lots of evidence that they look exactly like contrails.
Consider, there’s these white trails that look exactly like contrails – thousands of them every day, and now you quote a few tests long in the pasts. Test that by all accounts look nothing like long white trails, and numbered perhaps a millionth of the reported white trails.
Then you try to link the two? It makes no sense. Where is the evidence that these white trails are anything other than contrails.
That’s not to say that the government doe not perform secret tests on the population. Maybe they do. There is just ZERO evidence to suggest they use long white trails to do it. One might as well claim they are using party poppers as an efficient indoor dispersal method for biowar pathogens. But of course there is not evidence for that either.
So why do you suspect the long white trails specifically?
Quote from the last link that mary gave:
“Peter Vereecke, the former mayor of Evergem, Belgium told attendees, ‘Don’t confuse this with contrails. Those are harmless condensation trails that are only visible for a few seconds.'”
This is plain wrong. That statement makes it hard to take everything else on this page seriously.
“Chemtrail investigator Will Thomas reports that people hit by these mists usually become gravely ill within 48 hours. ”
Will Thomas is NOT a “chemtrail investigator” because chemtrails don’t exist. He’s a journalist who is trying to become famous by using the gullibility of others to further his career. In my opinion, he’s scum. His writing is worthy of the National Enquirer or Star tabloids and nothing else. Also, please provide a single name of anyone who has become “gravely ill” from “chemtrail” fallout. Just because Mr Thomas wrote it…doesn’t mean it’s true! And where is the evidence that any such mist was the cause of any illness?! Why hasn’t anyone taken a sample of this “mist” and had it analyzed? And why do you believe the words of Mr Thomas? Is he credible in ANY way?! And it seems rather wasteful to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to “spray” a “mist” on a single hiker to make him sick. Where are all of the other sick people?! I’ve seen these trails through my entire life and I’ve never had more than a cold/flu. And why aren’t some of the more delicate species just dropping dead all around us? Does this “mist” only harm humans?!?
“Thomas tells of hiker Joe Burton in Tennessee who, in 1998, was sprayed by a plane leaving a heavy toxic fog at tree-top level. ”
Are you actually suggesting that the trails that are being referred to as “chemtrails” are being deposited at tree top level?! Couldn’t it have been something else entirely unrelated to the trails in the sky?! Like a crop duster or someone spraying fire retardant on the trees? Again, Mr Thomas has provided NO EVIDENCE that this actually occurred, but you accept it as fact…why?!
And Mary, how do you know the planes which are NOT leaving trails aren’t “spraying” anything?! Where is it written that in order for a plane to be dropping something on us, we must be able to SEE some sort of “trail”?! The air is FULL of chemicals. Claiming to know the source of these chemicals without providing ANY evidence to support the claim is to me, in a word, silly.
My favorite quote from Case Orange, page 40.
[Contrailscience.com] deals with any of the websites mentioned above, reducing the argumentation of ‘chemtrail’ protagonists to a piece of rubble.
Yes, Uncinus, that is my favourite as well.
I think “Case Orange” is a somewhat misleading report. I am reading it carefully and finding that the summary at the end and the Executive Summary contain statements and conclusions that are not arrived at as a result of what is covered in the body of the report. Besides, they are not true.
The report says that the long white trails in the sky are contrails, jet exhaust contains some pollutants, NATO are flying a/c with old engines over Europe, there is technology to spray stuff from aircraft, the military want to control the weather, and HAARP is doing something in the ionosphere. Yet the Belfort-group still claim “we are being sprayed”. I intend to write to Peter Vereecke about this. Maybe he hasn’t read the report he commissioned closely enough.
Mary wrote:
“We can argue on and on on proofs of chemtrails and their alleged residues on the ground. But the thing is we CAN’T PROVE YET THAT THEY AREN’T REAL NOW. Talking about chemtrails reality is reasonable, in fact ignoring and dismissing it totally IS cognitive dissonance.”
It is not cognitive dissonance for me – I have am not holding 2 ideas simultaneously and have no uncomfortable feelings as a result of it.
If you have it you can solve it – go and take samples. Sample the contrails – not the ground, not the rainwater, not the sludge – fly up there and sample the actual contrails. Then you will be able to solve your problem 1 way or another.
Until that has been done any discussion about “chemtrails” remains speculation that has a mountain of evidence saying they do not exist, and none at all saying that they do exist.
Certainly we could speculate on what hey might be being used for if they did exist – but why should we? I read enough science fiction already – when I want more I’ll head to the library!
In Pt’s.5 and 6 of WITWATS you will see one the We Are Change Los Angeles member Jeremy Rothe-Kushel try to hand out the aluminum from soil in water test reports to perplexed members of congress. He even gives a little sermon in-front of the White House about the sinister case of Geoengineering run by secret government operatives.
Well here he is again interrupting the Bill Maher show from last nights live program.
http://www.infowars.com/wearechange-la-interrupts-bill-maher-again/
It just shows that 911 truthers and people who believe in chemtrails are usually from the same group and can’t be counted on to act politely even during a live network HBO show.
somehow I’m privileged enough to be on some mailing list from Michael Murphy (who’s other desperate arm-waving attempts can be read on metabunk.org).
The black hand of capitalism is apparently now passing out reasonably priced t-shirts to all those fools who part so easily with $12, in exchange for the rights to their critical thinking:
[img]https://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/whatintheworldaretheysprayingLB.jpg[/img]
That image on the t-shirt on closer examination goes along way to disproving the whole thing:
= Two white lines directly from the engines (not sprayed from elsewhere)
= A gap between the plane and the trail, which has no explanation if sprayed constantly and directly from the back of the engines.
= Trails forming at a distance behind the engines consistent with the accepted laws of condensation from jet engines in the upper atmosphere.
Its like an deception Easter egg, a sly wink and nod of admission to the skeptics…
As anothe blooger calls it – http://nutbarsnz.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/what-in-the-world-are-they-smoking/
I’m sure there’s a T-shirt in there too…..
@tryblinking; only $12 bucks? GOSH, that is cheap for a CT t-shirt. Infowars charges way more for their crap. Ha ha ha…it’s quite telling, isn’t it? I just read on a CT site that all their chembusters are just half-price until the end of the month.
maybe because no-one’s buying them…
Hi All,
I ran across this site after watching “What the the World Are They Spaying” at the recommendation of a good friend who also happens to be a major conspiracy theorist. I’ve greatly enjoyed what I’ve read here thus far because of your reliance on hard data, logical thought and open debate. On more than one occasion I’ve tried to venture off into the chemtrail world and gotten turned off by the sheer volume of unscientific thinking and the gaping vacuum of empirical evidence. So thanks to Uncinus and all of the others who post here, it’s enjoyable to see a bit of sanity on such a topic.
A question occurred to me earlier today but I have not been able to find the answer on this site or the web in general. Does anyone know of any data regarding the quantity of aluminum the average person inhales each and every day? Obviously this will vary quite a bit depending on the person’s location and the local weather conditions, but does anyone know of a ballpark range? The thought that those who are convinced airplanes are dumping aluminum on them from above have actually been breathing aluminum their entire lives is actually quite amusing to me :).
A couple of interesting tidbits from the ToxFAQs for Aluminum that I found linked somewhere around here:
* In the air, aluminum binds to small particles, which can stay suspended for many days.
* The average adult in the U.S. eats about 7-9 mg aluminum per day in their food.
Interesting, but doesn’t really help with the above question.
Best regards,
Wandering Crane
P.S. Oh, and this quote from post 443 is priceless:
“One might as well claim they are using party poppers as an efficient indoor dispersal method for biowar pathogens.”
Crafty, crafty, Uncinus. That’s actually a nefarious idea. Coming soon: “The Popper Conspiracy”. Own it on DVD for just $24.95 (plus S&H). And buy my t-shirts. And vitamins. And my poppers too, they are the only ones you can trust!
I’m not sure if this has already been mentioned, but “no aluminum found” in this Shasta test:
http://www.mtshastanews.com/news/x1176011800/New-tests-find-trace-or-no-aluminum-in-area-water
That’s great news Joe-
The snow they test at Shasta is supposed to be a store, showing a consistent average of what has fallen from ‘spraying’ across the Shasta area.
By this theory, it should show a nearly homogeneous distribution of ‘high’ to ‘very toxic’ levels of whatever is being ‘sprayed’. The minimum concentrations found should only be the minimum of the error bar on that average, which should still be ‘high’, by all their ‘theories’.
The fact that even one scientifically lab-tested sample shows trace or no aluminum means their theory is wrong. It is proof positive against the ‘chemtrail’ theory.
Here’s the latest from MJM; a 90 second interview relating to the ‘documentary’, with the same nonfacts repeated, while an agitated (and clearly unbiased) interviewer begs us all to please think of the children…
Honestly, I cannot wait for a clean, balanced, unemotional televised debate against real scientists, in which both have opportunities to offer their evidence, disproofs and rebuttals. Luckily for us, if he gets his truth out to enough paranoid jingoistic rednecks, this ridiculous hoax could be thoroughly scientifically examined by experts, with a depth of knowledge and understanding MJM could only dream of.
Unluckily tho, this topic is far too ridiculous to ever be realistically considered by a media outlet people actually respect, so MJM can continue to call it ‘the elephant in the room’, while selling his dvd’s, t-shirts and ‘chembusters‘ (really, does anyone buy those?), which suits him just fine.
Am I reading these figures correctly ?
….that the morbidity and mortality rates for lung diseases are being REDUCED in recent years ?…not increased ?
http://action.lungusa.org/site/Search?query=statistics&x=0&y=0
http://www.meetup.com/environment-391/events/17067290/
Outreach for Chemtrail truth at Venice Beach hosted by none other than Michael J. Murphy next Sat. What I wouldn’t give to see Uncinus calmly explain to these people in person the basic common sense facts about contrail formation and the pseudoscience of Chemtrails.
That’s just down the road from me. I might just pop by. It would be interesting to see Mr Murphy talk in person.
The problem with “calmly explaining” contrail formations is that these people have a much wider set of conspiracy-oriented beliefs. The co-host also seems heavily into 9/11 and Federal Reserve related conspiracy world-views, so they already take it as a given that the government is evil, and hence they must be doing something. The actual technical details exactly what that might be, including if it involves contrails, are rather unimportant to them. So even if I explain that what they are seeing actually resembles normal contrails, and even if I explain that finding that dirt is 8% aluminum is quite normal, then it’s not actually likely to change their world view very much. They know that something is going on.
MJM along with the rest of this group are members of We Are Change LA a 911 truth group, so naturally they’re major conspiracy believers. You might not be able to change their minds completely but you can at least challenge their beliefs and give them some facts to think about. They’re out there to wake up the “sheeple” and instill fear in those people at something that’s not real. They’re really engaging in a type of soft terrorism based on ignorance that should be confronted by people who know the facts like you. Anyway , I hope to see you out there.
I wonder what is the contrail forecast for LA for 9 April? Isn’t the contrail season in South California over yet?
I’ve been known to dabble in conspiracy theories (some have to be right) so I watched the movie “what in the world are they spraying” well I wanted to hear some differing opinions because the movie is scary!!!
After reading this thred i realize that the movie really doesn’t provide any solid proof but it’s just so emotionally driven it can suck you in (just like ALL TV documentaries) and I kinda fell for it. BUT I still think it’s totally possible the spraying is happening especially if its well known that spraying for weather modification can work, but the movie is clearly not based on sound science and we can agree the director is probably embarassed and wishing he would have done a much better job providing evidence. I mean even the conspiracy movies Zeitgeist and Loose Change had better facts to work with.
Its a relief to hear that regular contrails can leave clouds and this is something that chemtrail believers need to look square in the face. But I do know that I’ve lived up here in northern CA my whole life and when I was a kid 15-20 years ago the sky was blue all the time, tons of clear winter and summer days with no clouds huge blue skies and no contrails at all. If a plane made a contrail it would disappear quick, these conditions of clear skies would happen like 50% of the year. now it seems like we get contrails up the wazoo and significantly less days with no heavy contrails. It seems like there are always contrails now as if there has been a major shift in the atmospheric conditions? I just don’t get why the contrails always spread out now and form haze which dims the sun, that never really use happen here and I know the weather in my hometown!!!
We rarely get muggy days and there isn’t really pollution here, 25 miles inland from the coast and has always been a very clear area. Now we get tons of these hazy muggy days because the contrails form into cloud hazes that cover the entire sky, sometimes it’s as if there was a forest fire.
A couple points I want to make is that i think people are pissed off that our clear blue skies could be a thing of the past forever, it’s terrible and I hate seeing all the contrails and grids in the sky it SUCKS. Some people are probably just using “chemtrails” as a way to vent this frustration, there is something frightening about losing our clear skies and it almost makes us feel like the world is closing in on us.
Also we can agree that the science isn’t really in on whether we are being sprayed or not, nobody can say for sure and given the fact that there are plans to be able to do spraying is enough to make this a worthy subject because we do need to protect the environment.make chemtrails worth having smart people like all you guys and gals here to discuss it.
You’re all a smart bunch, I don’t like the teram hoaxer you are all using though I think it paints and unfair picture of people who might just simply be asking questions not everybody is unwilling to listen to good anwers.
Thanks,
Mad Dog 1984
Thanks for the great read!
No, the contrail season in SoCal is basically the same as the rainy season (which is really the “chance of rain” season, as it still only rains occasionally, but intensely) that’s November through April. It’s overcast here today, but I saw contrails yesterday.
[img]http://www.drought.unl.edu/whatis/climographs/images/LosAngelesMTMP.jpg[/img]
The weather forecast for April 9 has a 10% chance of rain over Venice Beach, with 30% on the days either side,
This is the one claim that it’s hardest to address, as to do so means challenging someone’s recollection, which they often take personally.
So, I’m sure that’s what you recall, but is that really what happened? When you say “the sky was blue all the time”, surely there would be photographic evidence to back that up. And how do you explain photos like this one from 1989, of Mt Shasta:
Or these photos in general, many of which are from Northern California,
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/
Now just consider for a moment that your memories from childhood might be skewed a little. Perhaps you remember the summer months, especially vacation times, more intently than the times you were in school? Is there one or two summers that are especially memorable to you?
Is there anything else that seems different to your childhood recollection? Are policemen younger? Is candy smaller? Do the years go by quicker? Is broccoli tastier? Have those things changed, or have you changed?
Indeed…you are correct Uncinus…broccoli is definitely tastier than it was 20 yrs ago…to me 🙂
“The weather forecast for April 9 has a 10% chance of rain over Venice Beach, with 30% on the days either side”
So MJM and Co might have a few chem… sorry, contrails on the backdrop of their gathering to point at. I won’t be surprised if they bet on it.
like I stated earlier it could just be atmospheric change or merely more planes flying nowadays, Im not trying to prove anything because I’m not a scientist but i can’t help but add my feeling that there aren’t as many blue skies anymore. Ironically after what seemed like a “heavy spray” day yesterday LOL it’s perfectly clear today.
I can now see how maddening this whole argument must be to scientists and pilots etc.
Obviously a lot of people who believe we are being sprayed are a bit less than logical. look at all the known internet hoaxes and crazy stuff people believe, my favorite is “orbs” in digital photographs. Circular lights showing up in photos that are only dust and water particles. People have practically made their own religion around orbs its wacky! They some times even claim they are linked to chemtrails
Hah
I’m just curious how hard and expensive would it actually be to fly up and sample the contrails and get it sent to a lab? Surely cheaper than making a full length documentary right?
PS I was amused by the story of the guy who went to a chemtrail conference with the wearehange people, i was actually shocked they were so aggressive to you and they really should be willing to debate you publicly. Gotta keep 911 seperate though its like using the holocaust comparison, also wearechange has actually been targeted by under cover agents/goons just like all the protest movements in America, so of course you’re going to be labelled part of the conspiracy. Still amusing though I wish you had made a video.
Now excuse me I have to get off the Internet because haarp is making a rainbow in my backyard
“I just don’t get why the contrails always spread out now and form haze which dims the sun”
This is mixing up cause and effect. Since I started paying more attention to contrails the last November, I noticed that it is not the contrails spread and form haze, but the other way around – the hazy (that is, ice-saturated) atmospheric conditions cause contrails to persist and to spread. The contrails just make the areas where these conditions prevail to be more apparent.
The atmospheric conditions may well have changed over the years, so there may be indeed more hazy days per year than was before. Undoubtedly, the aviation industry has contributed to this, but it is hardly the main contributor. Global warming, I think, is a real fact, to which the “chemtrail hoax” may well be a distraction. What a clever ploy to explain the probable warning signs of real changes in the upper troposphere by a “government conspiracy”.
Thank you, Alexey. Well said. Climate change is an undeniable fact. If there is a conspiracy, I suggest that the conspiracy is related to people who want to draw attention away from the obvious, scientific research, that proves that climate change is very real.
Contrails do contribute to haze though, and sometimes a single contrail can be spread out to cover a large portion of the sky.
Here’s an extreme example:
While the sky would certainly be hazy without contrails here, the contrails are making it more hazy.
I was watching a video on YouTube last night that was saying the newer jet engines emit more water vapor than the old ones is this true?
Also is there anything toxic and polluting at all in these normal contrails? I’m curious and surely there is something other than just water coming out of the jets? Could this still be harmful now that there are so many more planes flying?
Can anyone explain why the haze seems to be discolored? Ill try to post pictures of the discolored haze. I mean it’s pretty pristine in northern CA and I’m wondering why haze from contrails (or assisted by contrails) seems to look polluted?
Seeing the haze reminds me of sci fi movies like blade runner, 5th element where there are so many flying cars it’s an abyss of pollution… Seems like we are headed in that direction.
I’m also curious why Global Warming is now called climate change? Climate change seems to be a very vague term and could mean anything, where global warming is specific to the earth warming. Saying climate change is real means nothing I mean of course it’s changing. The only thing to make me skeptical about global warming is how much money is set to be made with taxation on a global level and that developed countries will make it harder for undeveloped countries to grow using fossil fuels.
I’m just trying to figure it out here…
I believe “climate change” was substituted for “global warming” because it’s more accurate. Many people were confusing their own local weather patterns with the actual data re: global warming.
“Contrails do contribute to haze though, and sometimes a single contrail can be spread out to cover a large portion of the sky.”
Surely they do. There has been a great contrail day here in England recently, I’ve been impressed when all these spread contrails have been brought to our place by wind from the South:
[img]https://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/P1020625.jpg[/img]
Well, it was one of those freak days when cirrus clouds in the area did not form outright, as they usually do, but left the job to our rather extensive air traffic:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_Chilbolton.2011083
@ Uncinus in #743
The direction of the cirrus streaks indicates the direction of the wind shear which is not necessarily in the same direction of the wind itself.
The fall streaks do the vector wind subtraction for you, right in front of your eyes. 🙂
Mad dog 1984, said…
“Can anyone explain why the haze seems to be discolored? Ill try to post pictures of the discolored haze. I mean it’s pretty pristine in northern CA and I’m wondering why haze from contrails (or assisted by contrails) seems to look polluted?”
Haze nearer to the earth/ground usually contains the colour of the dust and particulate matter, stirred up by wind, and/or man-made agitation.
There’s a clever landscape painter’s trick that uses this phenomenon…..
Near the horizon, add some sky colour to the distant land (haze), and add some land colour to the sky (dust).
I just discovered this site as the result of a chemmie blog outbreak on Honolulu craigslist rants and raves or maybe it was politics. I have asked what I think of as a fundamental question and had NO answer.
What are the Bilderburgers/NWO/Global Elite/Illuminati and their hundreds of thousands of minions breathing if they have toxified the atmosphere? Are they willing to commit suicide to get a bunch of we peons?
If there is so much barium, strontium, aluminum, whatever being dumped into the atmosphere to poison us, why isn’t it showing up in the surface of the ocean, in the soils, more importantly in ice core samples?
Tens of thousands of scientists looking at all of these things and NO EVIDENCE of any of this nonsense?
To date, no answer from the chemmie loons.
Honoluluskies – ther is 1 theory that accounts for the self-poisoning aspect, and that is that the chemtrails are just 1 part of a multi part “weapon”. you won’t get sick, die, become impotent, whatever, unless you take the other part or parts.
I’ve seen suggestions that the other parts are fluorine and/or vaccines – “nicely” tying in with these otehr conspiracy theories.
Of course there’s no evidence of anyone suffering anything at all, but the standard “chemmie” line for that is that it will “happen” when some new factor is introduced….
and, again “of course”, there’s still nothing “odd” actually measureable in the atmosphere in the first place.
I totally forgot about this. The weather here was nice and sunny, but there were a few partial trails in the sky in the afternoon. Any know how the meetup went?
Maybe there’s an entry on his site? Or ATS maybe?
Shame we didn’t have a representative for reason in attendance; unless anyone actually made it?
PLAIN & SIMPLE, WHO GIVES A CRAP WHETHER OR NOT CHEMICALS ARE BEING SPRAYED…. EVERYONE OF YOU ASSHOLES ARE PATHETIC…. THE CHEMTRAILER IDIOTS & THE CONTRAIL WEENIE PUNKS….. ALL OF YOU NEED TO GROW UP & STOP ARGUING SEMANTICS…. THE ELITE BANKERS ARE STILL MURDERING INNOCENT LIFE AND DESTROYING LIVES ALL OVER THE PLANET AND ALL YOU PEOPLE CAN DO IS WHINE, BITCH, & MOAN LIKE LITTLE PUSSY 1950’S SCHOOLYARD CHILDREN…… GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOSERS……..
Don’t hold back man- tell us how you really feel!!!
yeah, don’t sugar-coat it. We can take it.
Mr Heuro, the important question is why do you reference “1950’s schoolyard children”?
Is there a reason you wouldn’t use the example of modern schoolyard children?
Do you have any reason to think their behaviour is drastically different now?
Only the gubment bankers would have the power to do something this horrible, across the whole of America, or maybe even the world. After all, they’ve been caught doing lots of other naughty things over the years, so why not this? Maybe it’s part of their global depopulation agenda!
Do you have some photos or videos showing how they’ve changed? This half-decade global conspiracy to change schoolyard children is huge! We need to contact radio stations and news networks now, so they can do scaremongering stories before anyone checks the facts.
In fact I have just done some research, made a short film* all about this, exposing the government as the liars we all know they must be. I have also developed a number of devices** to help stop this crime against nature and humanity, reverting your schoolyard children to their wholesome 1950’s condition.
We must take action NOW! H’RUMF! H’RUMF!
(*available now for $19.95, and **29.95)
Ok,
Listen up all of you. This is just like the birth certificate debate with Obama. One side says they are experts and say it exists, other other side also has experts that say it does not. I say, just so the certificate and be done with it……The same is true with this debate. We need hard evidence here and not coming to conclusions from the evidence presented.
So, have soil and water tests been performed at the end of airport runways? (should be higher there, right?)
Has anyone obtained samples of fuel that goes into the planes to see if the metals are there?
Has anyone looked where the fuel is coming from to see if the metals are being shipped to them?
Has anyone taken a plane up following the trails to take samples?
Seems to me the answers to my questions here will end the debate……
Instead of just talking about it……start a web site to collect money and collect this data!!!
The responsibility is with those making claims to provide evidence for those claims.
I’m not making a claim about the existence of chemtrails. I’m claiming that there is no evidence that chemtrails (as popularly defined) exist. I don’t need to test fuel to show that there’s no evidence. I can simply point to the lack of evidence.
So, yes, evidence would be great, but don’t present a false dichotomy of a balanced set of competing theories. There’s simply a claim of chemtrails, with no supporting evidence.
Yes you’d think that the people making such claims would be falling over themselves to provide evidence of the great secret or evil – whatever it is.
But would they believe “me” if I went and did all those tests? Somehow I doubt it – I’d be just another govt-paid agent, shill, diinfo agent, using govt resources to shut them up, etc.
the ONLY way the believers are going to accept such tests is if they do them themselves. And even than I’d bet dollars that they would come up with an excuse if they showed nothing untoward.
On May 18, 2011 at 2:00pm (MT) the host of “foodintegritynow.org” will be interviewing G. Edward Griffen (vocal supporter) and Michael Murphy (producer of WITWATS)
If you have any questions, which could even make it onto the show, the host can be emailed at [email protected]
I was asked if I would be interviewed with Mangels.
http://foodintegritynow.org/2011/03/07/food-integrity-now-francis-mangels-chemtrails-e36/
I declined and suggested they find a local meteorologist (but not Scott Stevens).
During the off-line e-mail exchange I strongly suggested to Matt Spaeth that Murphy and Griffen were badly misinformed.
They should probably also find a local soil analyst, someone who has some actual figures for any changes to the soil – as that’s more of a focus for the food-integrity people.
Read this article; many air traffic controllers in US and Canada report being told to keep airliners below the level of the aerial tankers, and that the tankers are ‘experimenting’ with climate control. The stuff they are spraying degrades the controller’s radar:
http://www.rense.com/general20/cc.htm ; there is plenty of other info out there to check out, and I sugest you all do, because the aluminum they are spraying (and barium and strontium) are ‘bad news’ for y’all and your families.
So, go ahead and scoff, if you must, and help to keep the general public in the dark re what is being done, but generally denied, by our Governments and Militaries.
Luckily, there are Air Traffic Controllers who are willing to ‘tell it like it is’, and who are more interested in their own and their families’ and neigbours’ health:
http://www.rense.com/general20/cc.htm
Scoff if you will, but don’t just swallow Govt’ or Military lies (‘How can you tell if a politician is lying?’ answer: ‘If his or her lips are moving’.)
William Thomas was one of the original people who started the hoax. He’s not really a reliable source. Especially when it’s just an unverifiable second hand account with no corroborating evidence from ten years ago.
Just watching the Representatives run like scared rabbits for the nearest bolt-hole, or door or lift, should be evidence enough that something is going on.
When the Govt. officially deny this is going on (just like they denied Cambodia or Laos were being bombed in Vietnam War, or when they denied foreknowledge of 9/11 or the specific attacks on World Trade Center that were given them by both foreign Security Services or their own FBI, and silenced their agents who tried to ‘blow the whistle’ (watch ‘Everybody Gotta Learn Sometime’), and they even had the Twin Towers with a gun-sight superimposed on them on official Govt. documents, and stated the necessity for an event like a ‘New Pearl Harbor’ would be necessary for the ‘New American Century’ to come about (I could go on, but I think you have the drift) there is absolutely no reason to believe them.
Check the internet for pictures of patterns of ‘trails’ that are totally inconceivable to have occured by ordinary airliners, in grid patterns, amd it is pretty obvious something very odd is going on.
The Representatives surely could investigate and question Air Traffic Controllers, and the journalist named in above link as having been told by Air Traffic Controllers to fly below the spraying aircraft, who were engaged in ‘Climate Modification Experiments’, if they weren’t so busy giving 29 standing ovations to the leader of a country whose leaders have been labelled ‘War Criminals’ by a veteran British Member of Parliament, Geoffrey Kaufmann, hardly an ‘anti-semite’ as he is himself Jewish, and supported Zionism. And when the Reps (with a few noble exceptions, like Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney when she was still a Congresswoman) aren’t feting a War Criminal, they are busy with their snouts in the trough, looking out for Number 1, getting their little treats from the Lobbyists for Israel, Arms Companies, the Halliburtons and Bankers, Oil Companies, Big Pharma, Agro-Chemical, MINING (like Aluminum!!!) etc.
I am British, and I can tell you we get the same ‘trails’ over here, and the same increase in Alzheimers, and at an increasingly young age, and various respiratory illnesses that just don’t go away (bouts of persistant coughing, which many of my customers (I’m a cab driver) tell me about.
Talk about ‘Hidden in Plain Sight’! All anyone has to do is look up to the sky, and on many days, there is the evidence.
Another thing is, as well as the poisons they are spraying, they are also pumping exhaust gases from their engines into the upper atmosphere or statosphere, itself contributing to what they are supposedly engaged in countering, Global Warming.
And a request to any genuine truth seekers – if you are up in a plane, look around and upwards to try to see these ‘sprayers’ in action, or to see what the ‘trails’ look like close-up.
Why would you not expect grids to form when the weather is right?
I’m afraid “politicians don’t like to be badgered by conspiracy theorists” is not really good evidence for that conspiracy theory. They would avoid you even more if the theory was baseless.
Here is a good five-minute video showing a plane turning on the spray, as well as good shots and arguments that these trails are deliberately spread, with planes looping round, hardly normal commercial airliner or freighter activity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJ0YboQXy4&feature=related
And check out the Barium/HAARP angle on other sites.
The video appears to show contrails. Exactly what is it that you find suspicious about them?
It sounds like MJM and Rossalind Petterson (?) talking through a checklist of all the disproven claims the Chemtrail theory has made to date.
Thus, the governments aren’t even arguing that spraying is going on. It about the reason they give; weather modification in order to ‘fight’ global warming. The particles would reflect the sun light. So all the information on this site supposedly ‘debunking’ the existence of chemtrails is debunked by that fact. There is no question that spraying is going on. This site creates a lot of confusion, not good. All the pictures on here are indeed contrails, why not show a few of the chemtrails? Because there aren’t any? There are thousands of them. The seriousness of the pollution caused by the spraying of toxins etc. does not allow the confusion spread on this site. A spraying agenda is in action and this site aids this agenda by spreading confusion. we all suffer from the toxins sprayed, and so is the environment. One must be very inhumane not to make people aware of the dangers but to spread confusion instead. Words like “debunking”, “pseudoscience”, “fake”, “hoax” etc. are misinforming the people. Shame…
There’s no theory in facts…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815320198655156407
The government has not admitted to doing any geoengineering spraying.
Some scientists are looking at the possibility of doing it in the future, that’s all.
Man, you’re either mega naive, or a shill. They had to admit spraying in 1952 because of leaked documents. What makes you thinks this couldn’t be going on now? Must we wait 30 years before what is happening now is disclosed or leaked? Ridiculous…