Update: If you are looking for a debunking of Why In The World Are They Spraying, first check out this post, as the second film really depends on the first being true, then have a look at the various errors in Why In The World Are They Spraying, detailed here:
http://metabunk.org/threads/712-Factual-Errors-in-quot-Why-In-The-World-Are-They-Spraying-quot
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The documentary film “What in the World are They Spraying“, by Michael J. Murphy, attempts to promote the Chemtrail Conspiracy Theory (which states that long lasting contrails are actually the result of secret government spray operations), and proposes a possible explanation: that the trails are part of a geoengineering project involving injecting large amounts of aluminum into the atmosphere to block the suns rays.
Multiple parallel trails over Mt Shasta, California. Taken in 1989, ten years before the chemtrail operations were supposed to have begun.
The basic premise of the film is:
- Normal Contrails fade away quickly
- Scientists have talked about geoengineering using aluminum sprayed from planes
- Since 1999, trails have been observed to persist for a long time
- Tests in various locations at ground level have found different levels of aluminum
- Monsanto has genetically engineered aluminum resistant crops
- The government denies any spraying or geoengineering is going on
- THEREFORE: The trails are aluminum being sprayed as part of a secret government geoengineering project.
Normal contrails can persist and spread
That reasoning is somewhat suspect even if you accept all the points. But where it really falls down is that it’s based on a false assumption – that “normal” contrails quickly fade away. In reality, normal contrails can persist for hours and spread out to cover the sky. Whether they do this or not is entirely dependent on the atmospheric conditions that the plane is flying through, so it depends on the weather, and on the altitude of the plane. This is something that has been observed since 1921. Just look at any book on the weather, like this one from 1981:
They tested sludge, not water
So the film is based on a false premise and builds upon it to an inevitable false conclusion. But what about the aluminum tests? You can find the tests referenced in the film here:
https://contrailscience.com/files/chemtrails_basic_lab_report.pdf
And this is the one shown in the film, which they claim should be pure water:
Pond with low aluminum in the sediment. The film mistakenly claims the level are high by comparing them to water levels. Note the rocks (8% aluminum) that line the edges, and the bottom.
The bottom line here is that they are testing sludge rather than water. Sludge is water mixed with dirt. Dirt is naturally 7% aluminum. That’s all they are finding.
The first aluminum result is from the pond, discussed at the start of part 3, and it’s 375,000 ug/l. What they don’t mention is that it’s from pond sediment, sludge. So essentially it’s not testing water, but is instead testing the amount of aluminum in soil. So that’s 375 mg/kg for sediment that has settled in a pond over several years. That’s actually quite low. Aluminum concentration in soil ranges from 0.07% to 10%, but is typically 7.1%, or 71,000 mg/kg. The amount of aluminum found in the sludge is quite easily explained by windblown dust. It’s low, probably because it’s a new pond, so a lot of the sediment is vegetable matter.
Then there are the rain readings. 33, 262, 650, 188, 525, 881, 84, 815, 3450, 2190 ug/L. Wildly different values, some high sounding, some low. But no details are provided that correlate these different numbers of contrail activity. If this variation were due to aerial spraying, then surely a match would be found. These numbers simply tell us that different tests produced different results. It does not tell us why. No details of the sampling procedure are given, or the weather conditions preceding the test. Nor are we told what are the expected levels of aluminum to be found under these conditions.
Rain gauge used for the aluminum test. Note the mounting bracket appears to be made from aluminum.
Rain water contains particulates from airborne dust. The amount of particulates will vary greatly based on the weather. A sample from a brief intense storm after a dry period would give you more particulates than a sample taken in the middle of several days of rain. The amount of particulates in the sample would also vary with how long the container is left out in the open. Dust will settle on the container if it’s left out for a while, increasing the amount of aluminum found. All these tests are really telling us is how much dust the sample was contaminated with.
How much aluminum is there in the dust? Let’s say it’s about the same as the amount of aluminum in soil (although it’s probably higher). How much dust is there in rain? According to Edward Elway Free of the the United State Bureau of Soils, in his book “The Movement of Soil Material by the Wind“, in tests performed by Tissandier, rain water contained 25,000 to 172,000 ug/L of particulates. But he notes “As the amounts of rain and snow which fell in the various cases are not given, the figures are of little value. The first drops of a rain storm will of course contain the largest percentage of dust, and as the storm continues the air is gradually wasted clean.”. Still if only 1% of the lowest figures there were aluminum, then that’s still 250 ug/L. And at a quite plausible 10% of the upper range, that’s 17,200 ug/L. A range that easily covers the observed test results.
See also the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, VOl 4, 1967, which shows Aluminum found in rain in the range 520 ug/L to 1,120 ug/L, over 13 different tests. This shows that the results in 1967 (when presumably there were no chemtrails) are pretty much the same as the results the WITWATS is getting. Nothing unusual.
Tens of thousands of time the “maximum limit” for water. Sure. But you were not testing water, you were testing dirt
The soil tests are where a typical mistake is made – conflating the percentage of the metal in one substance (soil) with the typical percentages in others. As noted, soil aluminum naturally ranges from 0.07% to 10%, and is typically around 7.1%, which is 71,000 mg/kg. The tests from Oregon (see sheet 16 in the pdf) list quite ordinary results for soil of 18,600 to 38,000. But then they note the results are “Tens of thousands of times the maximun limit for water“, which is true, but they are not testing water, they are testing soil, and it less than half the normal value for soil.
They continue this on the next page, with a low soil aluminum value of 10,500 mg/kg (just 1% aluminum), and yet note: “Near playground Sisson Elementary 300‘ away”. As if this is somehow dangerous to children. It’s just normal soil, as found in any playground, anywhere, ever.
Aluminum is everywhere, in various quantities
- Aluminum is the most abundant metallic element in the earth’s crust, about 8% of the ground is aluminum. In some places, like the Hawaiian islands, it’s 30-60%!
- Aluminum is everywhere, in the food we eat, and the air we breath (as dust)
- Aluminum is in daily contact with us, in soda cans, cookware, aluminum cooking foil, construction, transportation, baseball bats, etc.
- The amount of aluminum in any location varies naturally. In some places there is a lot, in others there is very little.
- Contamination of samples with aluminum is very common due to it’s abundance and common usage. Unless careful control samples are taken, then the results are often wildly inaccurate.
- One of the tests in the film was water collected by a schoolgirl in a mason jar. Mason jars occasionally have aluminum lids
- Another was taken from a ski area snow pack in early summer. Skis, ski grooming equipment, and ski towers use aluminum. (Update: it is not an active ski area, so more likely it’s just dirt contamination, as the sample was taken in July)
- Aluminum is a common ingredient in antiperspirants and antacids such as Mylanta.
Aluminum resistent crops have been a goal for 100 years
And knowing that aluminum is very common will also answer why Monsanto would want to develop aluminum resistent crops. It will increase yields in areas with acidic soil. Given the ubiquitous presence of aluminum in the ground, and the fact that aluminum ion levels (Al3+) due to soil acidity have been a known problem for a hundred years , it’s hardly surprising that someone would try to make crops have a higher resistance to it. Here’s the Botanical Gazette of the University of Chicago, Volume 71, page 159, from 1921.
Note the reference at the bottom: “Aluminum as a factor in soil fertility”. Note also they are discussing how to “reduce the toxicity of aluminum salts” in the ground. So if scientists were doing it 90 years ago, then why exactly is it somehow suspicious that they are doing it now? For more discussion, see:
http://metabunk.org/threads/341-Debunked-Monsanto-s-Aluminum-Resistant-GMOs-and-Chemtrails
Discussing ≠ Doing
Finally, what of the government discussions of geoengineering, and their denials that anything is going on? Exactly. What of it? They discuss geoengineering because it’s something that people might actually want to do in the future, so we’d better talk about it now, so we can figure out what problems might occur. The concerns about health effects and effects on the environment are perfectly valid concerns, but they are not evidence that a spraying program is currently underway.
Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif), chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has no idea what you are talking about, because there is no government geoengineering project, just a few scientists talking about it.
And the most reasonable explanation for why they deny they are doing it because they are not actually doing it. The congressmen interviewed in the film claim they they are not familiar with it because they are not familiar with it. They don’t want to talk about it because they don’t know anything about it. There’s nothing sinister going on there. The congressmen are simply not familiar with this one particular theoretical geoengineering method (or probably any theoretical geoengineering method), so when they are buttonholed by someone who rather intensely asks them if they approve of it, then it’s quite understandable they don’t want to talk to him.
The film presents the conferences on geoengineering as if they are somehow secret and clandestine operations that need to be revealed to the public. In reality, geoengineering of this type has been discussed for at least sixty years. It’s hardly covered up, as the discussion has been constantly in the news, often front page news, since 2006, and has been making occasional mainstream news stories since the 1980s, with thousands of publicly accessible research papers over the last sixty years. There’s no evidence anyone was doing it sixty years ago, there’s no evidence anyone was doing it in 2006, and as far as anyone can tell, nobody is doing it now. Denials are not admissions, and discussing something is not the same as doing it.
I don’t want to make this article too long, but I’ve noticed a few more problems with the documentary, see the comment section for more info.
“P.S. Because the intent of this policy is to facilitate communication and debunking, it will be applied somewhat lopsidedly. Debunkers generally have thicker skins, and will generally be held to a somewhat higher standard of politeness than the people being debunked. Sorry if this results in any offense.”
In other words, he wants to allow the chemmies to act like assholes, and make sure the debunkers don’t, so it LOOKS LIKE the debunkers are better behaved.
That way, it will appear to the casual observer that chemmies are unreasonable, and debunkers are saints.
There is no evidence that ” debunkers have thicker skins” if the policy is lopsidedly applied!
All it shows is that debunkers are told to censor themselves so that the chemmies appear to be unhinged in comparison.
Manipulation at its finest…
Sorry, to suggest that all other debunkers on this site wouldn’t give it right back to the chemmies if you allowed it, is ridiculous.
Again, you make the rules. So be it…
Good points about the politeness policy. In a sense we are jurors looking at evidence and coming to our conclusions. Those who say that we who recognize the reality of chemtrails are not looking at the “scientific facts” may be akin to a murder trial jury whereas I view it more as a civil trial preponderance of the evidence. You would say OJ was innocent and I would say he was guilty.
You ask for evidence from me so here it is – sift through it as I have done:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=3&cp=5&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=chemtrails&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=chemt&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=975929cab25e73ff&bpcl=38093640&biw=1680&bih=930
Don’t misrepresent the story I related regarding Daniel Heggem which I actually expected you to do. I have likely done as much or more research on this as most of you who believe you are so scientific by denying reality. The opportunity to question this man was planned carefully to tie some pieces together. He was not the reason for my belief because at the time I still wanted to remain in ignorant bliss about the realities of population reduction like you so-called scientists are doing. His response made it clear to me that what I had been reading about was indeed happening and that he was well aware of it. In his position, he would know if it was or was not a reality.
The sad truth is that while we are making futile efforts to change each other’s beliefs we are slowly being depopulated through the chemtrail program and several other programs in place to cull the population to an acceptable number. Whether you like it or not, whether you hate us or love us for recognizing this reality, it is happening.
How is a google search which results in claims made by others about “chemtrails” proof of chemtrails?
It’s just more claims…not evidence.
Show me one of those links which actually reflects the beliefs of anyone who has actually studied aviation and atmospheric science, and concludes that there is such a thing as “chemtrails”.
All I see in those links are more chemmies… And their assumptions.
Try this link Greg…
http://www.google.com/search?q=persistent%20contrails%20-chemtrails
Greg wrote:
“All the so-called science you [guys] may present to say you have proven the reality does not exist does not refute what Mr. Heggem acknowledged in his response to my questions.”
So Greg, you are accusing Daniel T. Heggem of acknowledging to you in October 2011, of having first hand knowledge of a geoengineering program in progress.
I will ask him myself, but first, since you are the one directly accusing him, let’s have your name, since it isn’t fair of you to anonymously accuse a man of something.
You brought HIS name into it, are you man enough to put YOUR OWN name behind your claim?
Greg,
Your google search yields nothing now but the google home page.
Nothing at all.
Now, answer the question You have acused a man of something, by name.
So, you wouldn’t want to be accused of something by anonymous, will you put your name behind your
accusation?
I am still waiting for you to show the single mostirrefutable evidence for what people see in the skies being chemtrails, not ordinary contrails. If you won’t come out with it, there must not be any and you cannot find any substantive reason to believe in chemtrails. If so, why are you here? All yo have done is hurl insults and accusations……….
If you click on Greg’s name, it goes to ACS Engineering, and based on the letters after Greg’s name, he seems to be saying he’s Greg Haunschild, the principal of that company.
Well, that explains a lot. As a professional in environmental monitoring, Greg is able to completely understand just how wrong both movies are. He can understand the process of contrail formation and persistence. He can personally run the tests needed to ascertain and confirm the WITWATS results, but should be able to see their errors easily enough.
Yet he is angry at us, and says he still believes in geoengineering and that a mass population cull is “reality”.
No wonder he is angry, but as I supposed, he is directing his anger at the wrong people. He could be very helpful to his cause if he corrected the WITWATS misinformation, and I hope he does. There won’t be much progress made finding a solution to this thing until the misinformation stops. I know you can see it, I know you know it is wrong, and if you are truly interested in the truth you will work to stop it.
I also hope that he will understand that we have looked at far more than just contrails. Greg, in order to your present belief in geoengineering as an ongoing process, there is another hurdle you must overcome. Some years ago, I pondered the question of how geoenginering might be detected. Here is what I found:
http://metabunk.org/threads/111-Historical-Aerosol-Thickness-Debunks-quot-Chemtrails-are-Geoengineering-quot
In order to see more about where the WITWATS movie went wrong, you can read these:
http://metabunk.org/threads/137-Shasta-Snow-and-Water-Aluminum-Tests
http://metabunk.org/threads/822-Natural-Abundance-Of-Strontium-And-Barium
I also carefully considered what course of action could be pursued to learn the exact identity of an airplane seen making putative chemtrails. If there is any solution to the chemtrails conundrum, here are by best ideas for doing so:
http://metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions
I really can’t help you regarding your belief in a population cull. Frankly, it just doesn’t make any sense to me. So far as I can see, having watched the chemtrails hoax for the 15 years since its inception, lifespans have been on the increase, and no one has shown otherwise.
You guys finally got some science correct! I stated specifically what Daniel Heggem said so feel free to ask him personally – “well, we have to do something!” with emphasis on the word “something”. Remind him that I was the only one who asked him any questions and that I asked him three questions, each more pointed than the previous and that he was noticeably angry after the third question that led him to what, to me, was a clear acknowledgement that the program is indeed active.
I can tell that I am scaring you so-called scientists into potentially having to face reality. You will probably find a hole to crawl back into and not face the ugly reality of population reduction programs that are well under way. That is what “sustainability” is all about. The plan is for most of us to not be sustained. There are a lot of realities that you are denying and your bubble world will fall apart once you open your eyes. My bubble world fell apart when I saw ugly realities that I wanted to reject. Unfortunately, my denial did not make it go away and neither will your denial.
Oh, Great and Powerful Greg!
Please grace us with the Three Great Questions Of All Questions so that our shameful eyes may be opened!
Do it gently that our bubbles do not burst, rather float on the Font of Knowledge that emanates eternally from your lips!
Bring us to Realities we cannot now Perceive!
We beseech you Oh Great One!
Our only hope is that you might entertain our entreaties and deem us worthy of your Grace and Goodness, to inform us of the Mysteries of all Mysteries, the unknown “SOMETHING” which will set us FREE!
The three questions to Mr. Heggem are irrelevant to you because you are not in his position. The GREAT questions for you……
WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO OPEN YOUR EYES?
DO YOU THINK THAT KEEPING YOUR EYES CLOSED IS GOING TO CHANGE REALITY?
WHY DO YOU FEEL IT NECESSARY TO PARTICIPATE IN A SITE LIKE THIS THAT IS FOCUSED ON GETTING OTHERS TO REMAIN IGNORANT AND DENY REALITY?
Oh, Greg the Great One.
We humbly beseech your Favors.
Please grant us succor in our Hour of Need.
We now understand that we are not worthy of knowing the Three Great Questions.
We FEAR your wrath as no other.
Shine the light of your Holy Presence upon us one moment longer.
If we could but learn of the Three Golden Answers to the Three Great Questions,
perhaps our as yet un-worthy eyes will become OPEN.
Your Grace, again we cry out!
Set us FREE!
Bring us to the Great and Mysterious REALITY we so selfishly DENY.
Your humble servant,
Jay (the un-worthy) Reynolds
Guys, perhaps we could focus on some factual issue that is in dispute?
Greg, do you have any dispute with anything on this site? Anything I got wrong that you can quote and explain why it is wrong?
“How industrious is Satan served. I was formerly one of his active undertemptors and had my influence been equal to my wishes I would have carried all the human race with me. A common drunkard or profligate is a petty sinner to what I was.”
Thank you, Greg. You have truly opened my eyes!
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
I have apparently accomplished my purpose. My dispute is that the entire premise of this website is wrong. I find it foolish that your supposed understanding of vapor trails causes you to lead people into the false belief that chemtrails do not exist. I disagree with the premise that those of us who have looked at reams of evidence and in my case, quizzed a person in the know, and come to a different conclusion than you are considered foolish and nonscientific. At best your so-called proof can say “this is reason to believe the program has not actually been implemented, that the hundreds of millions of dollars of research has not led to action….” but it certainly does not disprove anything any more than Clarence Thomas could prove he did not molest Anita Hill.
Believe me, I don’t like what I have found to be truth. I am not looking for boogie men. I wish that I had found a different outcome but I am not willing to close my eyes to reality just because reality has some ugly aspects. Knowing the truth has caused me to be a different person so perhaps in that sense you who live in a bubble of false belief are better off. Personally, I have to know the truth whether I like it or not.
I hope you find it one day, Greg.
In closing (again), I am not omniscient but have found a great deal of truth that you who think you are scientific have rejected. It would go outside the scope of this perhaps well-intended but deceptive website to go into additional details that tie in with the agenda of the geoengineering program. You are going to experience the truth but even as the harvest is reaped you may refuse to accept the causes.
I sincerely apologize for being rude and thank Mick for correcting me and for enforcing the proper perspective on being polite to one another.
Greg,
Good luck keeping your new religion, you’ll need it. I say religion because even though it offers no salvation,
you have shown nothingto justify a belef in it. For you, it is strictly an article of FAITH.
You have conceded that all the WIWATS tests show nothing out of the ordinary.
You have conceded that ordinary contrails can persist for a time period equal to that of ptative “chemtrails”.
You have conceded that aerosol optical density data does not show geoengineering in progress.
Perhaps the saddest part is that you have conceded to simply accept the misinformation being promoted about chemtrails, which you know is wrong but will not seek to correct. By doing so, you demostrate that you do not care for the truth because are willing to accept the most prominnet leaders of your belief system telling outright lies.
There is a time limit for maintaining lies like that. Sooner or later the truth will catch up to you.
I’ve dealt with hundreds just like you. The vast majority left the religion withn about five years. They were the smart ones.
Be smart, Greg.
Well if you’d like a website with broader scope to discuss the evidence you have, then I’d recommend http://metabunk.org/forums/9-Chemtrails – my other site. But I really don’t see you bringing up ANY evidence, just a mischaracterization of what this site is about. Specifically it’s about identifying bunk in the evidence base for the chemtrail theory, and it’s about discussing actual properties of contrails to highlight the lack of actually inexplicable trails.
Of course there might be a secret invisible undetectable program spraying something somewhere somehow. But without evidence it seems the reasons to believe that are very shaky indeed.
I thought population control had been abandoned by believers? China has a huge population control program in effect. They are not using planes. I believe Russia as well as Japan are also experiencing a greatly reduced birth rate. Not with planes. The solution has not been found in India.
Michael J. Murphy, one of the leading chemtrail promoters, is a strong believer that there’s a population reduction aspect to the chemtrail conspiracy. It’s quite common to find conspiracy theorists who actually think the Illuminati put actually their planes down in writing on the Georgia Guidestones (a goal of under 500 million people).
Does your scientific mind tell you that Ted Turner openly stating that the world population should be reduced by 90% (I watched him say it in a live interview) and then giving $1 billion for vaccine programs was not related to population control? Would you give $1 billion dollars to make people healthier if you want 6 billion people to die?
Does your scientific mind tell you that Bill Gates openly talking about vaccines reducing human population (I watched his recorded presentation) and then the news stories indicating malaria has increased in the areas where his programs were put in place is just coincidental?
Does your scientific mind tell you that John Holdren was just kidding about population reduction in his 1979 book and that as the Science Czar he is not still committed to that agenda?
Does your scientific mind tell you that the death, disease and infertility being brought about through GMOs is not a reality and that any negative effects are simply an occasional unintended result? Are you going to use your scientific brilliance to teach the countries who have accepted the studies and banned GMOs that they are conspiracy theorists?
Does your scientific mind tell you that the UN loves you so much that codex alimentarius was drafted for your well-being?
Does your scientific mind tell you that the UN biodiversity map for the US was just put together by someone with crayons who was bored?
Does your scientific mind tell you that Agenda 21 is going to make your life better?
I can understand why you have to hold on so frantically to your bubble and why you so desperately need others to put their 2 cents in on this deceptive website to coddle you and tell you that those who see the truth are crazy conspiracy nuts and you blind people are the scientific geniuses. If you ever step over to the reality side and recognize there are some nasty things taking place you may have to accept other truth. Stay blind, you scientific whiz kids – your fantasy world is most likely much more pleasant than the real world!
I keep intending to stop responding but am fascinated by your adamancy to stay in your ignorant bliss. I truly need to stop spoiling your delusions and leave you to your so-called scientific fantasy blissfulness. My advice – stay from any sharp pointed objects and from anyone who is willing to look at things outside of the fantasy world you wish you were in. Repeat after me, “I am scientific, science will save me, bad things aren’t real, everybody loves me and wants only the best for me”.
No you would not.
Ted Turner has repeatedly stated he thinks the population reduction should be via decades of a reduced birthrate, and not by killing people.
To reduce the birthrate vaccines and other improvements in health care work great because the reduction in child mortality causes people to have fewer children.
That’s science.
And what did John Holdren say exactly? And what was the context?
Why do you ask me for information when you have access to the internet yourself? Is it because you are afraid that looking it up yourself will force you to see too many things that could potentially pop your fantasy world bubble? Look up the quotes from John Holdren’s Ecoscience book yourself . If you do I am sure you will rationalize it just like the bogus line you accept about the vaccines not really having death in them. Do you honestly believe they are making the world less populated because our lives get so much better due to the loving injections brought to us by the same people who openly state there are way too many of us? Have you read or listened to Ted Turner’s recent statements about how good it is that our soldiers are committing suicide?
I got drug into truth by doing unrelated research and kept coming across things that tended to poke at my fantasy bubble – very much like what you should experience. The difference between you and me is that when I saw things I did not like I did not refuse to look into it, knowing that if my world view was sound there would be no bubble to burst and I would be even more convinced of the things I actually turned out to be wrong on. I read and read and cross-referenced and cross-referenced. My bubble was burst when I realized that many of my heroes were not really heroes, that the blacks I thought were angry for no justifiable reason truly are being systematically and strategically annihilated (on a side note to blacks – would you go to a KKK clinic if they set up death shops in all of your neighborhoods just like Planned Parenthood does?), that the Indians did not just lose a war that I thought they were as guilty about as us, but that we were unbelievably brutal and unjust to them, that my “Christian” presidents were as “Christian” as Hitler (and that some of those presidents were directly involved with Hitler), that our military is not saving us from terrorism but that we are the source of terrorism, that the drug war is not a war against drugs but a war against us, that the environmental agenda is not about saving the world for people but is actually about saving the world from people, and on and on……
Let me know if you have any further questions. You have a lot to learn. I can help you.
P.S. – for another example of the type of mindset we are facing, look up what Jacques Cousteau had to say about the human race. He loved the little fishies. He loved to see people die. But be careful when you start looking. Perhaps you should have someone else find it for you so you don’t see anything that might jeopardize that bubble of yours.
It’s because I don’t know what quotes you are referring to. Since there’s a whole book there, how am I supposed to know what quote you mean?
Google 101 Mick – type in John Holdren population control.
Please, please, please be careful. There are numerous sharp, pointed objects out there in that bad ol’ putty tat land of the internet with all kinds of conspiracy theory nuts. Keep your eyes closed and just peek once in a while until you find something that does not jeopardize your bubble world. Because it is so critical to this deceptive website that you remain blind, perhaps you could have your wife (?) do the search for you and only allow you to see what is safe. And in case you accidentally see something troubling and need a comfort zone, perhaps we can pretend that John Holdren changed his mind, perhaps it was a silly joke when he advocated putting substances in our food and water to reduce population. If that doesn’t work we can pretend that he just meant he wanted to slow down productivity and that no one actually wants to implement genocide such as Jacques Cousteau advocated (2.5 million murders per week). In fact, I suggest we all pretend that John Holdren actually wanted to put substances in our food and water to make us all healthier, wiser, stronger, etc. because that, like vaccines, will make us have less children when life becomes so wonderful through the blessings they bestow upon us. Yeah, that has to be it, right Mick?
Mick, I disagree with you but I sincerely hope you live a long and prosperous life and a blessed eternal life. The likes of John Holdren, Ted Turner,…..others, don’t. Stop being ignorant and stop trying to keep others in a state of ignorance. You are dead wrong and there are agendas being carried out to remove only the wrong part.
you don’t have to be a scientist or expert to know what your eyes see. Call them what you like, something is being covered up, there is a reason why here in Australia not one media representative, station, radio etc will discuss it, if there is nothing going on, why not come out and say thats its safe or normal. Why is it National security keep adding info they need of me to create a case. you are truly a close minded muppet if you think what we see is normal. Chemtrails can date back to the early 1900’s, read up for yourself….
Contrails you say… why would the Australian army fly a plane at 2am, well outside of flight times, then when looking up notice a thick trail left behind it. i took photos and tracked in on flight tracker doing u turns until it stopped after 3 parallel lines. since when do contrails turn off and on.
Be a sheep, thats why the world is as bad as it is, people don’t use common sense or open their eyes, just follow the muppets of the world. its really really sad to see so much ignorance, especially people with children…
Hell razor- you say “not one” media representative will discuss “chemtrails” ?
Perhaps you missed this article :
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/jet-pilots-fear-chemtrail-attacks/story-e6frg8rf-1226508708721
Common sense you say ? Contrails are very similar to clouds….why do clouds turn on and off or have gaps?
Greg, the quote, please…
Not from a conspiracy site…within its original context.
Thank you.
You scientific guru geniuses are not able to locate text from a book? You truly are showing your closed minded mentality of being afraid to do research outside of your bubble world. Find it yourself!
It truly is amazing how many of you so-called scientists on this site say “feed me, show me, lead me to the data so I can make up my own mind with the filtered information”. “Show me a specific item so I can zero in on that and call you a retard instead of searching out the matter myself”.
Dig in Noble and Brilliant ones! There is a real world outside of your deceptive bubble on this site.
I am typing reeeeeeeaaaaal sssllloooooooww so you can follow along:
Open your browser
Go to the Google search bar or to any search engine you prefer
Type in “John Holdren Population Control” or “John Holdren Ecoscience”
Notice that there will be about 90,000 hits
Open your eyes, take off your blinders and look at the text of his book
Read the quotes from his public life
You decide whether he is talking about killing people off and intentionally destroying fertility or if he is talking about making us healthier and stronger so you will voluntarily depopulate – you know, like the vaccine program that is designed to make life so wonderful for those people in Africa (and the US) so that we don’t want to have so many of those pesky little rug rats
Be careful Noble one – you may find yourself blinded by the light if you venture too far out of your protected bubble.
It’s a 1,000 page book. Since you were obviously referring to something in particular, when not simply say what you were referring to, instead of typing out a long response explaining why were are so narrow minded?
I’d be quite happy to discuss the quote, if you simply say which one you are referring to. I have the book in pdf form.
This site summarizes things I have read in Holdren’s book and in general about Holdren pretty well. I did the simple search process that you may someday learn to do yourself in order to locate this for you. Please don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because this site advocates truth:
http://thetruthwins.com/archives/obamas-top-science-advisor-john-holdren-advocates-mass-sterilizations-forced-abortions-and-a-global-police-force
I won’t be surprised if this information actually turns Holdren into a hero for you so-called scientists on this site.
So what does that have to do with chemtrails? If someone were trying to reduce the population, why would they use aluminum oxide, a substance of low toxicity (although possible long term effects) which is universally present in dust, and which we already consume through cooking ware, medicines and food containers? We also consume aluminum silicate through anti coagulants added to powdered food products.
Greg says we should be scientific. I’d like to see the scientiific facts or even the logic which takes him from some person’s comments about population to his claim that chemtrails are a “REALITY”.
It seems to me that he came with a belief that someone intends to reduce population, and started
to look for how it might be happening, then chose the chemtrails hoax maybe because the bandwagon was there waiting for him to jump on to.
Sort of like Francis Mangels had trouble on some tomato crops, ooked up in the sky one day and saw a contrail, and found his own personal boogeyman. Francis’ problem is that others n the same small town are not having the problem his backyard garden is having
Otherwise, this offtopic should really be discussed in the metabunk forum which is more amenable to long discussions.
So Greg, you are an environental scientist. Show us how you use science or even logic to connect Holdren or Turner, or Cousteau’s statements to a belief that chemtrails are a “REALITY”………
Apparently you aren’t able to grasp the reason why you are being asked for direct quotes in context.
I think you are reading propaganda, without understanding the meaning of the original quote. You are accepting the interpretation of the like minded as the correct interpretation.
I think you’re wrong.
Get it?
Now, please provide the quote/quotes in the original context, or have you never read them?
Greg, have you actually read the book? He doe NOT advocate doing any of those things. He says that if things get really bad, then we might be forced to do something like more compulsory schemes. What he actually advocates NOW are curbs on the population growth rate.
I think you are reading your own beliefs into things. Nowhere does he say that that we SHOULD be having “Mass Sterilizations, Forced Abortions And A Global Police Force”
You so-called scientists are not nearly as smart as you think you are and your continued implications that you have greater insight than me do not intimidate me at all. You think you can prove things you don’t like don’t exist. When I use to be naïve like you are there were a lot of things that did not make sense and, like you, I denied the anomalies and rationalized the things that did not make sense. I truly did not like what I began to find, all of which started when I was doing research related to music. Things I came across did not fit my world view and the first several times I saw some things I wrote them off as being put forth by people with evil agendas – just like you are doing. In order to address the things I was finding I did additional research and most likely dug a lot deeper than you have because I began finding a lot of things that also brought some understanding to the insanity of my environmental consulting experiences. For example, approximately ten years ago I was working with a woman who was instrumental in the national push for sustainability. She was so into the global warming and overpopulation myths that she and her husband both had themselves fixed so they would never have any children. At the time I was still somewhat naïve but recognized some oddities about the sustainability movement. I commented to the woman that it appeared to me that sustainability was actually all about population reduction. She looked at me with amazement and said very few people recognize that fact and wondered how I picked up on it. You would probably say it is because I am a conspiracy nut when in reality it was one of the things that got me out of the same ignorance you are still in, plus she confirmed that I was spot on in my assessment.
You people need to get a life and accept realities of life. There are a lot of interesting things going on and you should learn about them. They are and will continue to have a profound impact on your life. Your bubble won’t stop reality.
That some people would like to see fewer people on the planet is not a new idea…from Paul Erlich in the 1960s and even earlier…
But reducing the population via reduced population growth rates- through increasing economic well being, increased female education etc…is NOT the same as “culling the population”.
I have never heard one person who espouses a lower population suggest doing doing by removing people who are already alive. That some woman chose to exercise her freedom and eliminate the possibility of her procreating does not suggest she wants to remove people already alive.
Nor does the fact that some people espouse a lower population growth rate mean that a persistent contrail is really a “chemtrail” designed to cull the population. There is certainly no evidence to suggest that and nothing you have said has contributed to that understanding.
Believe me, I know how you feel. For many years I also wanted to remain naïve and hope that my ignorant denial of facts would make them go away. It didn’t work for me and it won’t work for you.
So…help me…provide me some actual evidence that they are attempting to reduce the population by eliminating people currently living…via “chemtrails” or any other method.
What “facts” show any type of population cull currently being implemented.
Don’t obfuscate with long winded anecdotes or exhortations of “do your own research” – Just provide the most compelling facts that add any credence to your beliefs.
Don’t worry Greg, I think you have remained naive. Congrats.
Still no direct quotes huh?
Not surprised.
Still no evidence to confirm the “facts” you mention?
I’m not surprised.
Wake up you supposedly brilliant so-called scientists… [Admin: repetitive content deleted]
Greg, that’s quite enough.
I think we get your point that you think we are all deluded. But continuing to rant on about it is not helping anyone, and it’s very impolite. If you can’t present some clear evidence of these supposed delusions, then I’m just going to ban you.
Greg has decided to leave. I’ve deleted his final post as it was not polite.
Who here has claimed to be a scientist?!
And one doesn’t need to be a scientist, to understand science…
So far, all I have seen are claims and nothing to support the claims.
Oh well…
I’m not surprised that Greg was unable to provide the quotes he was asked to produce…several times.
I previously predicted that Greg would get over this in five years. It may take a bit longer.
He may be being influenced y one of the self-described “truth” movements i.e.; Zietgiest, Thrive, WAC. All of those have attributes of cults and are psychologically manipulative for vulnerable people. Hopefully that is not the case here and his experience here might be a good lesson in how illogical and unscientific his belief in chemtrails really is. He seems to be unable to confront that fact publicly, maybe on further reflection he might see things differently.
His performance certainy did his “cause” no good at all. What he demonstrated was just another case showing the abject weakness of chemtrail belief. It cannot sustain itself at all when confronted with a simple request for evidence, and responds with derogatory insults. Not much more can be said about this episode.
Guys,
Do you ever get the feeling that these people are beyond help? From what i can see, one of the aims of all this de-bunking is to hopefully turn some of them back to reality. But 99% of the time it just sends them further the other way.
I personally think that subconciously, they know this is not real, they know that what you say makes sense, and this makes them rebel even more. Therefore it’s a pointless excercise.
It seems like an addiction. They crave this cult mentality, and the prospect of you taking this away from
them doesn’t go down well…
IF they fully belived in what they were saying (that the government is trying to kill their friends, family, everyone they love), then how the hell do they carry on with their everyday lives??? If i belived that, i wouldn’t be wasting time calling you guys names all day! I can’t imagine what i would do!
Thats why there is no way they fully buy into this, even if it’s just a subconcious knowledge that it’s all BS. It’s just a game to them, a hobby, an addiction… The fact that it all plays out over the internet lets them separate it from real life…
What are you’re thoughts on this?
Yes, there are many people who are lost to reason, for one reason or anothe. However, there’s also a bunch who are not, and those are generally the ones that don’t post, the larger silent audience.
So when I’m arguing without someone who’s a “true believer”, I know there’s a good chance it’s going nowhere. But that also other might read the explanation, and find it useful
Rick,
I think you are correct in every respect, except one. You mentioned that lots of them separate reality from possibility. Just as they came in to this thing almost in a flash, sometimes they leave that way. I have had contacts with many hundreds of chemtrail believers. I have seen many thousands. You can visit some of the older forums and see that there are thousands of members, but well over 90% of those eventually drifted away. There seems to be an expiry date for these beliefs for most people, and they eventually leave. Hopefully we can help hasten the progress for some. Both Mick and I get messages from some of these folks.
Jay:
I have had some interesting side communications with Mick and he agreed to allow me to ask you something since you indicated you know Mr. Heggem. When I attended the conference I was mostly convinced that geoengineering was active but still had some uncertainties. My questions to Mr. Heggem were crafted not to be rude as I have been on this site but rather to ask about the potential health effects of what was being done. The general nature of the questions were zeroing in on how the EPA was ensuring that we were protected as the pollutants were being sprayed and I mentioned some of the specific chemicals that I understood were being sprayed. It took place at the Las Vegas NREP meeting as you saw in the link I attached previously.
My expectation was that he would tell me there was no such program or that he was not aware of any such program if it was not happening, i.e. he would shoot down the premise of my question which was “I understand this is happening, what are you doing about it”? In fact, I expected him to deny it even if it was active. With three different opportunities to respond in that manner he never did. Instead, his exasperated response was “well, we have to do something!” I understand you are not going to be a chemtrailist over what I am telling you but that to me was very difficult to take any other way than as a confirmation that the program is in place and the pollutants I mentioned are being sprayed.
Please ask Mr. Heggem why he did not refute my contention that the program is active when he had three chances to do so. Ask him to tell you specifically that it is not active, ideally while looking him in the eye.
Rick, you are not correct about whether or not I truly believe what I am saying. The difference is in the worldview and how I see all of the pieces fitting together. My worldview is based on many years of observations and a lot of research. For example, when my Mormon coworkers told me that Mormonism was the only true religion I read approximately ten thousand pages to determine whether they were right or wrong. They were definitely wrong. I truly don’t think I have all of the answers but truly do believe I have more than most people on this site. The worldview difference is why we will not connect and why we most likely are wasting each other’s time. Regardless, it would be nice if Jay will follow up with Mr. Heggem.
And in closing, while I still disagree with Mick, I admire the manner in which he handles himself in trying situations. I proved that!
hey guys! long time no speak!!! just checking in with you and your posts since the last time we spoke. Still trying to convince the silly people that Chemtrails don’t exist huh?
I was just curious.. are you guys funded by the CIA or FBI? NSA or FDA? KFC? BK?
Just wondering… with all the trails overhead lately, it’s quite a stretch to believe that they are indeed contrails.. but, I don’t expect any agreement from any of you.. your goal, it seems, is to debunk anything that presents itself as truth..
http://beforeitsnews.com/chemtrails/2012/09/chemtrails-secret-confirmed-2430226.html
that’s ok though!! my feelings are not hurt.. . please don’t get me wrong.. i know YOU know that they(chemtrails) exist.. I also know that it’s your job to debunk any evidence that points to their existence.. so please understand that I’m not trying to convince you.. I already know you are aware of them…
I would however like to advise (caution) anyone reading your information that they need to consider multiple sources of information on the subject.. also that Global Population Reduction IS part of the elite’s agenda:
http://www.masterjules.net/depop.htm
It’s important to remember that the elite agenda for global population control is not a “conspiracy theory,” it is on the record and documented.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————
Quote from CNN:
The number of babies born in the United States dropped 2.6 percent last year, according to a recent study, the latest in a long list of falling indicators.
The birth rate, which takes into account changes in the population, fell to 13.5 births for every 1,000 people last year, from 13.9 births in 2008, and 14.3 births in 2007, according to a new report from the National Center for Health Statistics.
The Reported cause…. An “expert” says it’s due to “The Recession”.
So the “official story” being the recession means that we shouldn’t worry about the GM foods, the Fluoride in our water, the daily spraying of our skies and the laced “vaccines” that are rapidly sterilizing us. And when you look at the numbers 2.6% isn’t that big of a drop… but when you look at 2007 data the drop is 5.5% in just two years and when you look at today versus 1990 the drop is a staggering 19% and an incredible 50% since 1910 when the US birth rate was 30 per 1000.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————
So given that we’re controlled by a ruthless elite who care for nothing but their own survival, and who have poisoned our food (GMO), our water (fluoride) and our air (Chemtrails), why WOULDN’T anyone believe in their (chemtrails) existence?? Not all of us are as stupid as the elites would like us to be..
Yes. I believe that Chemtrails are a part of their agenda. Yes, I believe that they may be causing the illnesses that are being reported all over the world and yes, I believe they are a secret Government operation.
If the people knew they were slowly being exterminated, there would be mass panic wouldn’t there? Therefore, there must be mechanisms in place (your site as well as others that deal with debunking chemtrails) to discredit the truth and to keep the general population dumbed down (mainstream media) and sick, so they’re easier to control and eventually disposed of..
So continue dismissing claims of the poisons in our skies.. i’m sure that one day very soon it will all be revealed…
Take care of yourselves.. all the best from Canada.
http://www.epa.gov/esd/land-sci/staff/heggem.htm
Based on Heggem’s curriculum vitae, what makes you think he would know anything about a geoengineering program if it did exist? He is a biologist who has worked mainly in wildlife ecology. There is nothing to indicate he has any expertise in atmospheric science or climate science.
I hope Jay does write him and gets a response, but for right now I am going to think back to the misreporting of what John Holgren said and say fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
OK, maybe I was wrong in one respect. His current job does have some responsibility in atmospheric pollution. He is s till a midlevel civil servant at the Las Vegas field office. If people at his level knew about a geoengineering program, there would probably be hundreds of potential whistleblowers.
So Greg, you were actually able to read about two religions and choose the one true religion, out of the two, just by reading?!
Amazing
No biased interpretation involved at all, I’m sure.
Good job!
Now you know how people are able to dismiss the truth about the trails in the sky.
The best thing about blogs is that they allow us to understand ourselves better – ideally. The last couple of weeks on this site have taught me a lot. I see Jay and Rick saying that boogeyman and I are crazy and us saying that most people on this site are blind. What I have accepted is that it is impossible to say who is smarter or dumber based upon these postings and impossible to say who has done more research. The thing I can say is that our disagreements are based on a fundamental conceptual difference and that we are unlikely to actually connect, like two planes that never intersect. For the time being it is not possible to say who is absolutely right and who is absolutely wrong and while I believe that boogeyman and I have a much better understanding of the reality, I also recognize that there will be adjustments to my thinking similar to learning that the Republican Party was not really going to make things better and that many of the things liberals were ranting about were actually valid (but I still say most things they rant about are crazy!).
I see this as a puzzle in which the pieces can be confusing but when viewed individually it seems that you can explain the piece you are looking at. What I experienced was that there were too many puzzle pieces that didn’t make sense and that attempting to rationalize so many anomalies through my worldview was not working. That and seeing things that were way out of skew with my worldview one night when I was doing other research led me to delve into things and see if I could fit some pieces together. Rick made a good point about believing that we must be extremely unhappy if we conspiracy theorists believe what we believe but he was wrong when he concluded that this must mean we don’t really believe it. There is a great sadness in learning what I have learned – things which changed my understanding about a host of things – and in that regard I can understand why so many people don’t want to believe it. I also saw that the plans were “hidden in plain sight” but that there were many things put in place to cause people to stay blind, e.g. the dumbing down in our schools, the brain-numbing entertainment industry, sites like this one, etc.
Boogeyman and I may be wrong to try and convince you of anything because I believe what is planned to happen will happen and perhaps you are going to enjoy life more than me by not accepting what is happening. What I don’t like is that so many of you that I am fully convinced have your eyes shut to reality make out to be fools those of us who I believe do see the entire puzzle more clearly than you. I also take offense in that I believe you are deceiving others and preventing them from finding what I believe to be truth, even though it may be a sad truth. This anger has been expressed by me when I see you asking for a detail with what I believe is an agenda to discredit that detail, thereby assuming you have shot down our entire reasoning process and also when I see people take a point and look for a word that is wrong or take a point out of context to also say the entire reasoning process is wrong.
Jay, I will be one of those people that in the very near future you never hear from again but that does not mean I have become one of you. It is because I will have learned what I needed to learn and will move on. Mick has my contact information so if you don’t get a response from me you can run it through him.
The fact remains that there is no evidence that the trails are anything more than contrails, and that there is no evidence that there is anything being sprayed on us.
That’s all I need to know.
Claims are just that…claims..nothing more.
Until someone is able to sample a trail, and show me that anything found in the trail shouldn’t be there as part of the combustion process…then I’m sticking with my position that the trails are contrails.
That isn’t to say people aren’t “spraying” things into the air from time to time…for whatever reason, it’s just saying that the visible white trails have not been shown to be anything more than contrails. That’s just a fact.
Greg, how many years have to pass with nothing (chemtrail related) “happening” before you’ll admit that you fell for a hoax? 10? 20? 30?
I ask that because there were people making the same claims many decades ago…are they still waiting?
What a sad way to live.
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-confusion-is-nothing-new/
Just because I have a positive world view, doeskin mean I’m wrong. I trust the basic science that explains EVERY trails I have ever seen, without adding any chemicals to them.
I see no other reason to believe otherwise, unless I hate the world, and distrust everyone in it. That would also be sad.
Greg,
I did not say I did nor do I know Heggem.
You have not been responsive when I asked for the single-most irrefutable evidence for your belief in chemtrails. You were not responsive when I asked you more than once to state what questions you asked Heggem and how he responded. I’m not playing some game where I chase down a man when his accuser won’t even recount his version of events. Don’t expect me to be your tool or your fool.
You are being evasive because you know that by responding whatever underpins your belief will be challenged. This tells me that you know it is weak. I like nothing better than to have a weak opponent. Until you are willing to become stronger, you will fail to ascertain reality, Until you are ready to have a reasonable debate on facts and logic, you won’t become stronger.
OK Jay, you have thoroughly trounced me and with only one line erased all of my research. There is nothing for me to do now but find a doctor who will prescribe me some valium. Good-bye cruel world!
The government does admit to trials with sulphuric acid……that IS being sprayed from planes as well as other deployment techniques.
Interesting. Please provide the proof for your claim.
Probably thinking of the chlorosulphiric acid that was proposed to supress contrails back in the early 1960’s – see https://contrailscience.com/contrail-avoidance-and-mitigation-techniques/
Hello again.. another 2 days of heavy spraying overhead yesterday and today so far.. no clouds – just a milky white haze that blankets the sky.. can someone please explain to me why they’re still there after hours and hours?
Yes, i know, i know.. the persistent contrail explanation is coming.. I’m aware of that.. but how many times in the past have contrails consistently behaved in this manner? I”m sure it might have happened once in a while with normal contrails at some point in time and at some temperature/altitude whatever.. but EVERYDAY?? Are these newly designed contrails? designed to consistently behave the same way, crisscross each other and spread out to fill the entire sky horizon to horizon? Well alrighty then!
I know many people are talking about population control etc.. as a reason for these trails.. but I believe it’s something a bit more insidious than that..
A wise man once said – ‘it’s much easier to fool someone than to convince someone they’ve been fooled’
I’m wondering how many people are familiar with the 2012 Prophecy? Not that many I’m sure.. it’s not something you’ll hear about in the mainstream media. unless of course it’s a movie about the end of the world..
Apparently, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence of changes that are scheduled to occur this year.. beginning with the Winter Solstice – Dec. 21, 2012 at exactly 11:11 a.m. when the Earth will line up with the Sun, and the Center of our Galaxy. An event that occurs only once every 26000 years..
The frequency of the planet is increasing – The Schumann Resonance..
The Sun magnetic field is 230% stronger than it has ever been..
ALL planets are experience Global Warming not just Earth..
An increasing number of children are being born with 3 DNA strands and have supernatural abilities(China’s Super Psychics) – Indigo Children.
There is also the Superwave theory. A gigantic explosion that occurred 26000 years ago at the black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.. Traveling at the speed of light, this wave is theorized to reach us on that date. An exotic mix of cosmic radiation (gamma rays, xrays etc).
So what is causing these changes to our Sun?
Apparently, according to many explanations, our Solar System is in a more highly energetic area of space. This is what is causing everything to speed up.
Many ancient prophecies talk of a time of great change.. the Maya, Hopi Indians, Aztecs, Incas, and I-Ching all speak of this coming (positive) shift..
Cosmic radiation has the ability to change DNA.
There has been an experiment in Russia involving a Frog and a Salamander. (Google it?)
When photons (light particles) were sent through the body of a pregnant Salamander the projected onto that of a frog – the frog ended up having Salamander babies.. proof that photons (radiation) have the power to affect DNA.
If you were in control of this planet and knew that the entire race was about to ascend to a higher level of existence and didn’t want your reign of power to end, wouldn’t you need to figure out a way to prevent that Solar radiation from reaching us? Doing that would effectively end the reign of terror that has had us in it’s grip for hundreds of years?
Viola! Chemtrails!
These artificial clouds do a real good job of blocking out the sun. I’ve seen halos around the sun at times from the blanket of chemicals in the sky..
So of course most people wouldn’t give it a second thought as they are unaware of the link between the two.. (they’re not even aware of their existence much less the link between them!)
I honestly don’t think they have a snowballs chance.. but they have to try don’t they?
Ok. Well then when ever the president is some where these “clouds” as you say don’t appear! Why is that. Why are our skies not at blue as they used to be? You see, you are just trying to cover up What you are really doing to our world. Shame on you.
The president spends a lot of time in Washington, and there’s plenty of contrails there.
What evidence do you have that are skies are less blue? Are you sure it’s not just memory? Or kodachrome? See:
http://metabunk.org/threads/494-Debunked-The-Sky-Was-Bluer
Boogeyman- you said “how many times in the past have contrails consistently behaved in this manner?”
Well, according to this atmospheric scientist 40 yrs ago…”often”
Measurements of the Growth of the Ice Budget in a Persisting Contrail
R.G. Knollenberg
Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
Volume 29, Issue 7 (October 1972)
“It is often observed that contrails spread considerably…Under favorable conditions, a lateral spread of kilometers is observed…If sufficient air traffic exists, an entire overcast of contrail cirrus may develop and persist for hours with rapid growth in the ice budget of individual contrails.”
http://ciresweb.colorado.edu/science/groups/pielke/classes/atoc7500/knollenberg72.pdf
Other papers and account from decades past described persistent, spreading contrails as “frequent”…
However, there ARE vastly more planes in the sky now than there were 40yrs ago- wouldn’t you agree?
Over 40,000 flight per day.
Although, I live in one of the busiest airspaces in the country and I do not see persistent contrails “everyday”. I go days, sometimes weeks without seeing any….
According to 1 chemtrail theory chemtrails ARE making skies bluer – artificuially!! – http://rense.com/general92/chmm.htm –
Our intermittent so-called “blue sky” that millions of us have seen these past six months is, in fact, NOT a return to our real, blue, pre-Chemtrails sky that we had before this deliberately created nightmare began. This is another illusion.
According to Dr. Castle, this “new color blue is due to the chemical compounds Manganese di-Bromo di-Fluoro-Benzidine (salts). They are added to Chemtrails so that light is not reflected; but, rather, these compounds refract both light and dark. Therefore, it works the atmosphere into what is called ‘a coherent phase fiber optics refraction’ in a crystalline (the salts) blue material. So, the sky ‘looks’ blue; but actually it only has the refracted color of whatever color (bright or dark) is above it.”
I forgot to add that according to Hopi Prophecy: As the time of purification nears, cobwebs will crisscross the skies.
“Yes, i know, i know.. the persistent contrail explanation is coming.. I’m aware of that.. but how many times in the past have contrails consistently behaved in this manner? I”m sure it might have happened once in a while with normal contrails at some point in time and at some temperature/altitude whatever.. but EVERYDAY?? Are these newly designed contrails? designed to consistently behave the same way, crisscross each other and spread out to fill the entire sky horizon to horizon? Well alrighty then!”
I’m looking out of the window now and there isn’t a contrail or even a chemtrail in sight! Nimbostratus from horizon to horizon.
Maybe the author would like to explain why, on some days the trails are consistent with a tic tac toe pattern? Commercial jets never travel in these paths yet they are there on many occasions. I live with 7 niles of PBIA, 40 miles of FLIA, and 70 miles of MIA. With 3 major airports close by the flight paths are extremely irregular.
Anonymous, maybe you could link to a photo of these “tic tac toe” patterns?
The main cause of parallel trails is planes flying in the same direction, but the first trail gets blown sideways by the wind. When they cross you get a tic-tac-toe pattern. See:
https://contrailscience.com/contrail-simulations/
Also they might not be as close as you think, see:
https://contrailscience.com/how-far-away-is-that-contrail/
“There is also the Superwave theory. A gigantic explosion that occurred 26000 years ago at the black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.. Traveling at the speed of light, this wave is theorized to reach us on that date. An exotic mix of cosmic radiation (gamma rays, xrays etc).”
If the energy, travelling at the speed of light,has not reached us yet, then no one can “know” of the explosion, since there would be nothing travelling faster than light to alert anyone to the explosion.
Marcel, I think pretty much whichever version of the Mayan prophecy you pick, it’s going to rely on magic at some point.
Anyway, there’s a nice debunking of the 2012 stuff here:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-guest.html
Mick,
By saying aerosole spraying is not being done today you certainly have not debunked Why in the World are They Spraying. Geo-engineering has been going on for sixty years for a reason and it is not for fun. Nations and industry have classified operations that you are not aware of… follow the money in the industry and the desire to master the weather, the environment and the technology for political and military purposes.. and to the best of your knowlege is not a debunking whatsoever. Things are never as they seem to be. Your site is great but cannot address the covert side where the money is driving the industry.
You can’t prove a negative. But you can show there’s no evidence to support it. The long white lines look and act exactly like contrails. So why think they are not?
Let us say for a moment these are simply contrails. You stated aviation as your profession, who is flying planes in areas with little air traffic? And also if you explain with commercial flight, why would they fly back an fourth, the same 2-3 planes for often hours in the same general airspace? (passengers would be pissed! ; )
I spent much time debunking to a friend some years back, prior to flood of info on the internet.This was my discovery and obvious question. I found FAA maps of commercial flights and indeed there is much air traffic but, not in my area. It is easy to see the back and fourth 1. Actual plane flying 2. Continuous and connected pattern.
Like I say, it was I the skeptic, who was hit with this obvious truth. I do not say chemtrail as I have no idea what is contained in these trails which turn to clouds. As with yourself, I do not trust source water of testing~if I am not partaking in test, I refuse to accept result of unknown parties.
Geo engineering/cloud seeding is used much in my area, 12 blocks away is Weather Modification Inc but small planes which try create rain for the farmers.Quite successful as they have also been hired abroad (So America) However, certainly no confusion between the two. One has nothing to do with the other, in my range of experience or observation.
Ad. 1: Find out whether the planes are actually flying back and forth. Not by eyesight, but with sites like planefinder, flightaware.
Ad 2: Cloud Seeding is not geoengineering. And it does not leave persistent contrails.
So far, there is no evidence at all that chemtrails are real. Try harder.
Mick,
You have not shown and cannot show there is no evidence to support it… you only state that you cannot find the evidence… evidence of classified experiments and projects is not available to you… or other outsiders…. You also do not have access to all evidence be it classified or otherwise.. you just do not have it…
What Mick can do and what this site does is evaluating the evidence presented in favor. Let’s say, it has been lacking.
So, since the evidence presented to prove chemtrails has been debunked with no indication whatsoever of it going on, you fall back on evidence that’s not available. Of course debunkers cannot say anything about unavailable evidence. But neither can you. Thus right now, there is no indication whatsoever of chemtrailing going on.
Or: if there is no indication in available evidence that persistent contrails are something else, e.g. chemtrails, why would you assume that there must be something hidden?
Capt. Gray,
There is a big cover up.
1. G. Edward Griffin had a team study the planes and found they were commercial jets.
Michael J. Murphy knew about this before he put out his last film, but didn’t tell you about it.
2. Michael J. Murphy knows another way to end the mystery of chemtrails once and for all, but he is hiding the method from you.
read all about it:
http://metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions
(To GapnGrey, also via email)
I’m not disproving the hypothesis. That’s not what I’m trying to do.
I’m showing that there’s no evidence to support the hypothesis.
Theorising that there MIGHT be some classified evidence is an argument you can make for ANY hypothesis. It’s a meaningless argument.
All I’m doing is pointing out the bunk. I would then ask what evidence remains to support the hypothesis? Why do you trust the conclusion of a film, when EVERYTHING it puts up as evidence is either speculation or demonstrably false?
Can you find anything wrong on contrailscience.com?
Even with thos information youtube nuts will brush it off as gubamint conspiracy. * rolleyes
Google “Dunning Kruger Effect” to explain why people fall for these hoaxes and become so irate when scientists try to explain them. Essentially, they think they are just as smart and know just as much as the scientists. Because the USA is almost completely illiterate when it comes to science, it’s quite easy to pull the wool over their eyes by talking about measuring aluminum in sludge and calling it water.
Christopher. Let me tell you what the motive would be. Every 3 years our population grows exponentially. So For every2 kids u have those 2 kids each have 3. and those 3 kids each have 3. And think of that on a huge scale. Of the entire world. They spray things that arent going to kill you. But weaken our immune system. Thru the food and air, even snow. So that elderly die off. and others as well. and people get sick easier so they buy more medicine and shots. wich the government provides. And they make it so obvious that people who knows how evil the government really is ( the rich people who own it ). We look crazy for even talking about it. The issue in the world is 1 thing, Over-population, we live in a world that they have people like lady gaga being role models for kids. 12 years olds are fucking and having kids, because of the growth hormones they put in foods now days to make it grow better. And have more muscle. wich is fucked up. And we are becoming over-populated. its all fucked, because no matter what, we will become tooooo full. if u stop to think about it
I know they are spraying something, the question remains, what is it? On low lying flights I have seen chemical tanks on the side of the aircraft, they are spraying and if your unsure get yourself a set of binoculars or a telescope and watch them, some leave trails while other don’t. So here is the calculation, we are seeing an average of 6 planes an hour spraying the skies over Minneapolis. We, my co-worker and I, have measured out the viewable distance and size of the trails. To convert a spherical observation as we see outside you multiply the square root of the radius by pi. (50 x 50) 3.1416 = 7,854 square miles of sky can be seen from the ground. America is 3,794,083 square miles, so divide the area we can see by the total area of sky and we can determine that 483 observers can see the entire sky over America.
With 483 stations all viewing an average of 6 trails an hour we can determine that 2,898 flights with 40 miles of trails totaling 115,920 miles of chemicals are sprayed in an hour, or 3.872 million miles a day. Because they are working at night, we have been observing this too because we felt they would do this under the cover at night and can be observed during full moons, and they are working Christmas day as well. Even on cloudy days we have observed them spraying the same chemicals in the layers above the clouds. In general, it is estimated that over the past year 1.412 trillion miles of trails have been sprayed upon the citizens of the US.
The tanks on the planes I have seen look like 1000 lbs tanks, but we will remain conservative and call them 500 lb tanks x 2, 1000 lbs per flight. 483 stations x 6 plaines per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a year x 1000 lbs per plane = 25,386,480,000 lbs of chemicals, or 12.7 million tons. Divide this by the total acres in North America of 2.428,213,120 acres and we can calculate that they are spraying a minimum of 10.45 lbs per acre, probably more than 20 lbs. The question remains then, what is it? According to all the information and the colors, Aluminum oxide is probably the best guess. Here is proof that it is not natural, here in Minnesota it will get to more than -15 in the next day, and there is NEVER a cloud in the sky when it gets this cold, so when the clouds appear on the radar, from ground observers and others, we then know someone is putting something up there. So then the question is, why the silence? Reason, plausable deniability to avoid law suits in case something goes wrong. But more disturbing, its happening around the world. I rather people not play into the ignorance of others and if you don’t understand why, the answer is simple, We were too hot and we don’t have enough food, its a last ditch effort to avoid a cataclysmic breakdown because running out of food will cause huge problems to capitalism. Look at Australia, do we want this to happen here? Minnesota last year was 8.34 degrees warmer than the decaqde average of the 1890’s. And by the way, we are heating the planet, but its not CO2, CO2 rise is a side effect of the cause. Scientists were on the right course but cut short during the Great Dust Bowl. Last year we had a normal rainfall in North America, but the drought was caused by increased evaporation of ground water sources due to this heat. Lack of rainfall was spotted but through the year was normal. Here in Minnesota we were slightly above normal when compared to the 1971 – 2000 stats, as most areas in the midwest were.. But our rivers are almost dry.
Wow- that is some amazing math. My question is how you come up with two 500 pound tanks? External? How come I have never seen drop tanks on any commercial airliner? Internal? How can you see them?
Woody said:
“On low lying flights I have seen chemical tanks on the side of the aircraft”
There are thousands of airplane enthusiasts shooting excellent pictures every day; with sophisticated equipment they can identify even planes on travelling altitude.
For examples, see these sites (out of many):
http://www.skystef.be/contrail2.htm
http://www.planespotters.net/
Can you point out the tanks that you are refering to on any of these pictures?
Can you point out a picture where the trail is clearly not created from vapour but from powder?
For the background of that second question see:
https://contrailscience.com/how-big-is-the-gap-between-contrails-and-engines/
Woody,
Here are my suggestions to you for further research:
http://metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions
You are thinking outside the box, for sure, but your parameters have been limited nevertheless by insufficient aviation knowledge. As JFDee pointed out, and my suggestions at the link above detail, it is indeed possible to identify these planes using commonly available tools. At that point, you will have solved the mystery of “chemtrails”.
I really enjoy running across people who want to personally delve deeper into a mystery and get to the root of it. It shows effective curiosity and how if coupled with the application of technology, attention to detail, critical thought and perseverence, you can find answers. If there is any valuable suggestion I can make for you in this quest, it would be to remain cautious about jumping to conclusions until you find real evidence, documented and confirmable.
Unfortunately, the makers of “What In The World Are They Spraying”, namely Michael J. Murphy &Co., will not be able to continue selling you nonsense videos if you do this. Perhaps some people like it that way, but I sense you are the sort that seeks full knowledge of the phenomenon, and don’t want to be kept in the dark.
I wish you luck in your endeavors, and please get back to us on your findings.
Jay Reynolds
Here in the Midwest, these tanks are located on the external part of the plane, like O2 welding tanks but much larger and are attached to the fusalage on the side behind the front wing extending to the tail. They appear to be a modified DC9. The pictures shown are not close enough to demonstrate the tanks, pictures have to be much closer or planes at a much lower altitude. Low tonight will be -20 and a high tomorrow of -5, if there is a cloud in the sky we will ALL KNOW they are not natural. When it gets this cold it is impossible for clouds to form, at least it hasn’t since my parents were born, which brings us back to the late 40’s for their memories. For me, it hasn’t since the 1960’s, but then again it hasn’t been this cold here for years. I feel like Einstien waiting for the eclipse to confirm his theory.
Jay, how about a title, CO2 debunked, I can provide all the PROOF needed for this. You would also come away with an understanding of what is heating and why we are doing what we are. I would love to post some of my findings through graphs but it doesn’t appear that I can post them. Most scientists that are stating we are warming because of CO2 are not able to answer one simple question, where does our heat come from? Yet, on their way home their car overheats and they call someone like me because they don’t understnd the basics.
Oh, we all know the answer to this, but sometimes science fills us with self doubt and makes us think beyond what is considered common sense or logical. This question alone removes many scientists from even speaking about global warming. Because I have a great deal of experiance in heating and cooling, EMS systems (Energy Management Systems) and troubleshooting of such man made items I decided to look into these claims of global warming, and the results are stggering and very distrubing. So we begin with thermal dynamics 101 here….HEAT RISES! Thus, the Sun acts as our boiler, the sky is our pipe lines, and the ground is our radiators. Our older homes using boilers mimic the worlds action of heating. From a thermyl dynamics perspective, the low temperatures at night are what is important although we tend to look to the heat of the day. If we want to find the heat levels applied and stored, we must look at the low temperatures. The amount of heat rise here in Minnesota is now nearing 10 degrees above the normal temperatures of the 1800’s. For a better understanding I made a short video explaining this and the thermal principles. If you understand the heat and source, you can begin to understand what they are doing above. Understanding thermal absorption is the key to understanding.
Because global warming is seasonal, I had to take you out at the ideal time, sprng. If you question why, it’s because the land mass and population is disproportionate, meaning man can not alter the physics of water, but when 90% of the worlds population and the majority of land mass is primarily north of the equator we being to see that March 21 – June 21st is the pre heating cycle, when the light exceeds the darkness. It sets the stage for the summers heat. Today in Minnesota we have nearly 4 more weeks of growing season as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Oteyq4QywU
Here is another unknown to even the science community.
Expansion and Contraction
All materials in the world follow this principle except one, water. When the past 200 years of volcanoes were examined because their exact dates are all known, a pattern developed. There were 117 total eruptions, 4 with unknown dates to their eruptions. This gave us a total of 114 eruptions to examine and of these, 72 occurred above the 10th parallel north. When taking the Philippines, Russia, Japan, Alaska, the US, and south to the Caribbean excluding South America we find that 79% of these volcanoes occur during the first 6 months of the year, January through June. The northern climates of Russia and Alaska expand into July where they had 4 of the 5 noted in the following graph.
Info, Smithsonian Global Volcanism program, “Large Holocene Eruptions” Recommended by USGS
Here is how illogical science has become…Science indicates that CO2 is raising our temperatures and thus we must remove our use of fossil fuels. Science also indicates that pollution lowered our temperatures by blocking the suns radiance, and my study concurs with this. So, if CO2 rose and the temperatures began to drop, then common sense and logic dictate a different cause. So science is actually in agreement with me and they dispute it still.
In order to understand how man has altered the planet lets look to the extremes, what if evey plant was removed from the face of the earth? Yes, we would overheat like venus because CO2 would rise and nothing would sequesture it. So, today we have wiped out 44% of the surface, so what do we expect it to do? Yes, rise in CO2 levels is expected, as it was prior to the use of our fossil fuels, and the plate is exposed to the suns radiance causing a rise in temperatures. To fully understand this look up google maps and look around the world and pretend your a beam of light and watch all the exposed surfaces around the world today. SE Asia amazed me. In America we peaked in the 1950’s at 59% of the entiire land surface of the lower 48 being plowed up every year for agricultural use alone. The equasion is this, 44% of the usable land surface in the world is torn up every year and exposed to the sun, we are adding 273,000 people a day to the planet and are currently using 1.04 acres per person. At our current rate we will be at 50% altered by 2025 and an irrevesable breakdown or our eco system will begin, if it hasn’t already. My findings indicated that we had till spring of 2012 meaning we can not stop it anymore, like an tsunami now.
Now, let me scare the crap out of ya. In the Bible and throughout the world it is written that it will “Rain Fire” If I am right and this is Aluminum Oxide then we have just inserted the catalyst necessary to accomplish this.
If you know what thermite is you also can understand the following, if not, look up thermite. By taking Aluminum Oxide and iron Oxide, mixing them and then igniting it we can see the results in thermite.
If this is Aluminum Oxide, and the core of the earth is iron, and the air supplies the oxygen and lave the ignitor, then we can see how perhaps a large volcanic eruption with a high iron composite could create a cloud of thermite that would rain down molten iron on the people. When I asked Ben Andrews, a lead scientist at the Smithsonian Institute Volcanism program his response was, “That’s a scary thought.”
They are all scary thoughts, but then the thought that there’s a devil clown under my bed is a scary thought. Luckily it’s not backed up by science.
I’d suggest if you really want to discuss your theories, then you start over on metabunk.org.
US Patent explains it
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5%2c003%2c186&OS=5%2c003%2c186&RS=5%2c003%2c186
Woody,
head over to Metabunk. And bring your evidence.
😉 Will do
Ok, I registered, how do I create a thread on debunking CO2 as the cause of global warming? The evidence I will post is overwhelming because its not computer climate models, its historical evidence that would hold up in the court of law. 🙂