Persisting and Spreading Contrails
Do contrails sometimes persist and spread out?
Yes, see the Encyclopædia Britannica article on vapour trails (contrails):
Contrail, streamer of cloud sometimes observed behind an airplane flying in clear, cold, humid air. It forms upon condensation of the water vapour produced by the combustion of fuel in the airplane engines. When the ambient relative humidity is high, the resulting ice-crystal plume may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.
vapour trail. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica.Retrieved May 4, 2007,from Encyclopædia Britannica Online: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074829
Also see “A Field Guide to the Atmosphere“, by Schaefer and Day, 1981:
“Sometimes [contrails] are ephemeral and dissipate as quickly as they form; other times they persist and grow wide enough to cover a substantial portion of the sky with a sheet of cirrostratus“ (Page 137)
Are spreading contrails a relatively new thing?
No, it has been exactly the same for decades, the only change has been the size of jet engines (producing bigger contrails), engine efficiency (burning fuel more efficiently creates more water vapor) and the amount of air traffic (producing more contrails). Spreading contrails have been mentioned consistently through the history of aviation, including in the popular press. Like Sports Illustrated , Nov 6th 1989:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1068997/4/index.htm
Now, late in the afternoon, the hatchery explored and the fishing over for the day, Crooks points to the sky. Blue all day, it has now turned hazy. “Contrails,” he says. “The haze is caused by aircraft contrails that have gotten spread out till they cover the sky. This is a major air route from the East Coast to the West.”
For scientific discussion, see, for example, all these articles on contrails. In particular the one titled “Airborne Observations of Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget“, from 1970:
The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
[....]
Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.
Airborne Observations of Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget
Peter M. Kuhn
Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
Volume 27, Issue 6 (September 1970) pp. 937–942
(Click on any of the images in this article for a larger view)
Then a few years later, in 1975, we have the article : Multiple Contrail Streamers Observed by Radar, which again has photos (taken in 1971) of spreading and persisting contrails, as well as extensive discussion of these observations.

Multiple Contrail Streamers Observed by Radar.
Konrad TG, Howard JC (1974)
Journal of Applied Meteorology:
Vol. 13, No. 5 pp. 563–572
Here’s a description from 1970, from a local newspaper, the Arcadia Tribune, April 29, 1970:
Aircraft contrails begin to streak the normally bright Arizona sky at dawn. Through the day, as air traffic peaks, these contrails gradually merge into and almost solid interlaced sheet of cirrus cloud – an artificial cirrus cloud that is frequently as much as 500 meters deep.
One of the earliest reference to contrails covering the sky is from the Mansfield News Journal, August 11, 1957, Page 29:
“Within the past few years, the weather bureau has begun to report the trails as actual cloud layers when there are sufficient trails to cover a portion of the sky.”
Here’s a description from 1955:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SosSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pvYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=851,1486793

An extremely persistent con trail might stay in the sky all day
But even earlier, and with a perfect description of what “chemtrail” theorist claim cannot happen comes this account from 1944:
The News, Frederick, MD, March 7, 1944
“Contrails frequently have a tendency to cause a complete overcast and cause rain. In Idaho I have seen contrails formed in a perfectly clear sky and four hours later a complete overcast resulted“
Below is the entire top of the page of that newspaper, in case you want to look it up.

515 comments Friday 04 May 2007 | Uncinus | chemtrails, contrails, science



ok
So, are the right conditions for these persistent, spreading contrails cold and humid air? What if it’s warm and dry? Does this still happen?
Yes, it needs to be cold and humid, but see #4 here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/
And Myth #2
http://contrailscience.com/chemtrail-myths/
Obviously the temperature at 30,000+ft. is always cold regardless of the temp on the ground. So exactly how cold does it have to be for the contrails to persist and spread? I’m asking this because I’ve seen the sky full of persistent trails during 85 degree days and none at all during 30 degree days. It just seems like it would be warmer up there when it’s hot down here, and cooler up there when it’s cold down here. Wouldn’t it be more likely to see them on cold days as opposed to hot days?
It varies. Check:
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=SAN&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
Temp aloft often has no relation to temp below, esp with overlapping air masses.
> Obviously the temperature at 30,000+ft. is always cold regardless of the temp on the ground.
Ah, yes, but is is cold enough?
see http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&issn=1520-0450&volume=036&issue=12&page=1725
Sometimes its not cold enough, and then you won’t see contrails.
The same paper explains persistence of contrails.
[...] http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails [...]
These appear in our So. Cal. skies & spread as they fall toward the earth even during warm days, two planes flying at what appears to be simular altitudes ones condensation trail will disipate within seconds while the others trail will persist for nearly an hour as it gravitates toward the ground, this is no conspiracy…..
Chemtrails are REAL, as to what and why I really would like to know….. Flouridating our water supply, thimerosal perservatives in our vaccines & flu shots, why not poison in the skies, nothing seems to amaze me anymore.
I live in Hollywood and work from home – I often step outside to take breaks from work and am very familiar with the various flight paths visible from my house. When I see planes with ‘contrails’ that hang in the sky long after their departure, it is ALWAYS the case that these planes do not follow the standard flight paths over Hollywood – I really have no interest in the ’science’ of what this site proposes – what I do have an interest in is what I see with my own eyes on a very regular basis.
bigdoghat, I live about 15 miles from you, on the coast. Today (Jan 31) there are a lot of persistent spreading contrails, but I’m bamboozled as to how you can tell what a “standard flight path” is over this region – we have a very busy airspace, and a lot of traffic flies over us in many directions.
I suspect what you think are the “standard flight paths” are actually the traffic that is inbound and outbound to and from LAX (and maybe Burbank). That’s quite understandable. When I’m watching television, I can look up out of a window, and see planes flying into LAX on the exact same route, I also see planes departing LAX along a consistent set of paths.
However, those are not the planes that make the contrails. They are too low. The planes that make contrails are much higher up, going between different airports, and on a much less well defined path. They are also MUCH harder to see when they are not making contrails.
I understand your lack of interest in science. What you can see daily is obviously far more engaging. However, if at some point you want to actually understand what you are seeing, then it really helps if you can use a bit of science.
What about the projects the government has admitted to? The science explained here is fantastic, but none of it addresses the secret things the military admits to, but fails to fully disclose.
I’m not sure what you are referring to – but the government “admitting” to one thing has no baring on this subject. The basic facts are simply that these trails look exactly like contrails. Sure, anything is possible – but it does help to have some evidence on something before you start to believe it.
mp norman baker pressured uk gov they released report where they admited spraying all sorts bugs metals stuff that was seen by gov as chemical warefare, the gardian did a report on it and have recently removed the page, gov said it was SAFE, spokes person at porton down when asked results of project, said, its not our policy to comment on ongoing projects, it was in 2002, i must try and get a copy.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/733929969/444184
you can get most of the details from this vid,
Sxx
Or from the original article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
Again, what does this have to do with “chemtrails”?
SoCalChems: “…Flouridating our water supply…”
General Jack D. Ripper: “Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face. ”
Maybe it’s time to start plan-R
I have an offgrid PV power system in the Sierra foothills, and I’ve seen days
with (literally) SCORES of persistent criss-crossing contrails by noon.
By 2:00 PM, these have formed a layer of cirrus clouds that is reducing my
solar flux by at least 25% (I’m estimating here).
What effect does this have on a large solar power station like, say, Nevada
Solar One, which is probably seeing much the same sky as I am? What about
effects on the weather? I’ve read that cirrus clouds actually warm the earth,
because they trap more heat at night than they reflect during the day. Would
this tend to exacerbate global warming?
Would you expect all these effects to increase in the future, in keeping with the
increased number of contrails over the past several decades as mentioned above?
Good question, there is a lot of science related to that questions here:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm
It will certainly increase if nothing is done about it. This has been discussed for decades, like in this paper from 1970:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0469/27/6/pdf/i1520-0469-27-6-937.pdf
It does vary by location, with drier areas being less affected. But it’s certainly a factor for future solar power. The problem is it would take significant political will to create any kind of change.
Perhaps more of an issue is “Global Dimming”. Both man-made, and volcano made. Look up: decreased pan evaporation.
Thanks for the links. The IPCC article is particularly interesting–
apparently Feb/Mar is the worst time of year. I’ll keep reading!
interessting site! however, could u please elaborate some more on JP8 fuel and the use of additives such as aluminum and barium in millitary jetfuel? u see ive been to a local AFB and found a hughe emtpry tank there, next to the fuel-tank cars, and i retrived a sample of whatever was stuck on the bottom of the tank. it was a white sticky substance. it was obvious it had been used as an additive in the jetfuel and i live in an area with daily persistent trails (in europe that is) anyways, ive gotten the sample analysed and you can see the reults here:
http://internet.phobic.no/chemtrail.pdf unfortunatly i couldnt afford a full spectrum analysis, but at least they found what i was looking for.
I think the problem with your arguments is: “it was obvious it had been used as an additive in the jetfuel”. How exactly do you know this? Did you see it being added?
If this was an additive, then don’t you think that’s rather a minuscule amount of aluminum? After being added to the jet fuel, mixed in the atmosphere, and diluted by rain, the dilution would be FAR less than is found in ordinary ground water. Both aluminum and barium are naturally occurring minerals that are always found in the air and ground water to some degree.
When you say “stuck on the bottom of the tank”, do you mean the outside of the tank? What metal was the tank made from?
I suppose Uncinus will try to tell us that flouride is safe to ingest also. Is it just me, or does anyone see how obvious his agenda is on this blog? He has a misleading web link to refer to after every lie as if it is some kind of evidence to back up his explanation about what we are seeing. Very vigilant about attempting to debunk anything that does not conform to his false propaganda. How dare you try to tell me that what I see with my own eyes and physically experience on a daily basis is not really happening. You have made it obvious that you are going to stick to your ridiculous explanations even if the poison were sprayed directly in your face. The things that Uncinus says are so ridiculous that it is an insult to my intelligence. Perhaps Uncinus lives in an area that is chemtrail free and he actually believes what he says because he does not know any better. If so, then I want to know why his home is not subject to these chemical warfare attacks, which by the way are perfectly legal as a result of of this little gem:
PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79] TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520 “CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM” “The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies. The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States].”
How does something as inhumane as this even become a topic of discussion yet alone a law? Did the public vote on this?
Rudedog, section 1520 was repealed in 1997. It has not been law since well before the chemtrail community came into existence.
The replacement law, 1520a, requires informed consent from all human test subjects.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/50/chapters/32/sections/section_1520a.html
I’m not saying that what you are seeing is not happening. I’m saying you are mis-interpreting it.
Hi Uncinus,
Great website and good work on showing the true nature of contrail characteristics. It is too bad that the chemtrail websites do
such shabby work on how contrails have spread, persisted and existed long before the current ‘mania’.
Now lets touch on a few other points of interest. I am highly curious of your current knowledge of these data points as they are public record and have been available to your keen mind for many years.
1) chaff has been utilized for years as a way of jamming enemy radar by the military. This chaffe is released as an aerosol from
aircraft. Do we have any disagreement here?
2) In 1993 ‘chemtrails’ (ugh, sorry to use such a loaded, controversial and mis characterized term) were deployed over Iraq in the
first ‘Gulf war’ for radio communication purposes. This use of contrails by the military is a direct application of a very real and in use patent on aerosol operations. The metals included both aluminum and barium. Do we have any disagreement with this?
3) Spherical orbs are often seen by those who closely observe contrails. These orbs appear in the sky very close to recently laid contrails, many actually appearing inside of the trails. These orbs are very prevalent in the skies above California, definitely above Los Angeles and Inland communities. I have seen and recorded these orbs myself and do not have any idea what they actually are, nor I have any idea what their purposes are. I am intensely curious if you have seen them yourself, and any thoughts that you may have as to their origin, purpose and keen fondness for contrails.
I do really appreciate the detailed analysis that you have presented on your website regarding contrail characteristics and look forward to your reply on some very real activities of something that legitimately could be termed (ouch, once again) chemtrails.
Oh, btw… of course I have links that support an established public record to all 3 points made, but my curiosity as to your existing knowledge of all 3 is just too great …
Very Truly,
Bryansail
1) chaff is not really an aerosol. Originally chaff was small strips of aluminum foil – this is no longer manufactured, but still in use. Modern chaff is made from glass fibers coated with aluminum. The fibers are 0.3 to 2.0 inches long, they are not suspended, and will gradually fall to the ground. An aerosol is “a suspension of fine solid or liquid droplets in a gas”. General use of “aerosol” refers to things like a fine mist, or smoke particles. While it might be technically correct at a stretch, using “aerosol” to refer to chaff is likely to confuse people, and you would be better to more accurately describe what you are talking about. See:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/chaff.htm
2) I’m not familiar with any use of contrails in the first gulf war for communications. Can you provide some links to back this up?
3) I think the orbs are various things: birds, planes, landing lights, planets, balloons, plastic bags, even the occasional weather balloon. People looking at the sky a lot, like UFO watchers, or “chemtrail” theorists, will eventually see and record these normal objects, and think they are somehow connected to the things they are looking for. The clearest evidence for this is the total lack of any detailed photos. All we ever see are a few blurred pixels that could be anything, whereas there are many thousands of detailed photos of planes at high altitude.
“Orbs” could also be thistle-down. Check the dates of photos… late summer? Yes. Thistle-down.
Uncinus,
1) chaff can be an aerosol. The patents are numerous for aerosolizing metals. We have record of metals in liquids being dispensed already. Modern chaffe can also come in a liquid state suitable for deployment behind airplanes as seen and utilized in the first Gulf war, back in 1991. Aluminum oxides are confirmed in use within numerous govt documents on aerosol chaf ops. Aluminum in high concentrations are very bad for life forms and should be looked at as a concern for all who breathe, eat etc.
Some specific patents for spreading metals as an aerosol are USP 4948050 filed 8-19-1990, USP 5003186;Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding for Reduction of Global Warming, Hughes Aircraft Company, issued March 26, 1991, USP 4948050 as well as other patents dating back to the 1970’s. Analysis of these patents can be found numerous places and are necessary in the context of the Navy program that I mention below.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3098564/chemtrails-a-research for examples of aerosol patents. Stated uses of these patents expand outside the realm of use of chaff, very easy to see how they are utilized for military operations. It is also a very real way to disperse this ‘harmless’ chaff in a classic aerosol form since we
are quibbling over the definition of ‘aerosol’ apparently.
Excerpted from the ASP (atmospheric science program website archive page;)
http://www.asp.bnl.gov/Archive.html -
‘The primary goal of this campaign is to characterize and contrast freshly emitted aerosols above, within and below fields of cumulus humilis (or fair-weather cumulus, FWC) and to use these observations to address how below-cloud and above-cloud aerosol optical and cloud nucleating properties differ downwind of a mid-size city relative to similar aerosols in air less affected by emissions. The observations from this campaign will also be used to aid in the development and evaluation of parameterizations of the transformation and transport of these aerosols by FWC for use in regional-scale and Global Climate Models. This final product has the potential to reduce the uncertainties associated with the treatment of aerosols by these models’
This is an example of public record pointing to aerosol dispersion by our Government for climate modification.
The study states that they will be observing freshly emitted aerosols (not disclosed what type) and then
developing and USING these aerosols. Not hoaxed is it Uncinus ? I would be in complete agreement that it is unknown how widespread and how utilized these programs are but last I checked we had a fairly robust military budget that IS interested in 3-D mapping of war zones and technological advantage over enemies.
Curious Uncinus if you are familiar with United States Navy’s RFMP, Radio Frequency Mission Planner, military program. Here is a hint for you, barium salts, ‘ducting’ and 3-D mapping are involved. Hope that I am not being ‘mis-leading’ by mentioning this Navy program. Are you ready to admit that aerosol programs are already in use ?
As for my links on contrails being used for over the horizon radio communications during the US Gulf War I, I am looking for a link that is still viable, got a few 403 not found and re-directs so far, I will find a decent link I hope, just have a time crunch at the moment. Nick Begich, in his book Angels don’t play this HAARP discusses the use of contrails for radio communications during the first Gulf war, but I’ll re-post with some web data for you very soon.
As for the orbs, numerous websites detail them, but keep looking up as I am confident you will see them yourself moving through contrails. Take photos of contrails to see them sooner, indeed they do appear as
points of light without magnification and I couldn’t rule out plastic bags or weather balloons at this point. I
do believe that they relate to aerosols but would like better evidence definitely.
-Bryansail
USP 4948050 mentions nothing to do with radar, it’s simply aerial spraying, like crop dusting, or spraying insecticide. Nothing to do with chaff.
The ASP quote has to do with air pollution in cities, and how to treat that, nothing to do with chaff, or contrails.
You don’t have any links for gulf war usage of contrails for radio communications.
Show me a link of an orb video that demonstrates that the orb is NOT one of the things I listed.
”I really have no interest in the ’science’ of what this site proposes – what I do have an interest in is what I see with my own eyes on a very regular basis.”
hmm, i have interest in what i see on a very regular basis. the earth is flat and the sun and universe orbits us every 24hrs. this is true right because what i see is always what it is. right? haha, chemtrailer logic. i guess if they have no interest in the science then i guess their cold winter breathe is a secret government chemical breathing operation hey…oh boy these chemtrailers are too funny sometimes.
u have great composure and paticence to keep answering their same old same old questions uncinus. keep up the good work! brilliant site!
I have watched this going on now.. here in SanDiego…. over to Borrego.. DAILY, for some time. There is a difference between contrails, and the stuff I am talking about.
This has nothing to do with contrails.. this is done by jets that fly very high.. and they sometimes circle back and forth..
Criss cross etc. It is NOT contrails.. it’s something else, and we sure would like to know who’s doing it.. and why.
People are getting mad.. and more and more people are taking pics.
Am in touch with friends in Europe who are doing the same thing. We are gathering evidence together.
And we are contacting all: Congress, Senate, FCC… every and all agencies we can think of.. o yes, and of course, the media.. who has been silent on the subject so far.. but no longer can be.. because the pressure from the viewing public is getting too great.
After all, if we don’t watch their ” news ” anymore.. or anything else they are showing us, they will go broke.. right ? !
Addie, how exactly do you know that what you are seeing is not contrails? Have you read the descriptions of how contrails are supposed to behave? There are lots of books on clouds that describe how contrails can last for hours, and spread out to cover the sky.
Jet do NOT circle back and forth except when in a holding pattern. The majority of what people claim to be jets flying back and forth are actually different jets flying in opposite directions of the same airspace.
Hardly anyone believes in chemtrails. Most people don’t pay much attention to the sky, and when they do, they can quite clearly see that these are normal contrails.
Uncinus, I thank you for your reply.
Allow me please to disagree with you, these are not contrails.
And Most people ARE upset about them, the ones in my neighborhood surely !
We feel.. it all has to do with HAARP. just no one knows. what !
My car is covered w. a sticky layer, every morning.. right after I wash it.I have developed an unexplained respitory illness, during the last year.
On and on….
No.. these are not contrails.. something is being sprayed into our atmosphere !
The biggest clue to that it’s not ok, and it’s not contrails, is the fact, that you can’t get an answer from : Your Senator, Congressman.. Media.. etc.. because I have written about 20 letters, to this day.. with not one reply.
When I am Stonewalled, I know I am on to something. and I am being stonewalled.
I am in touch with friends in Europe, who are observing the very same things.
Thank you again for your reply.
Addie.
Briansail. what are ” Orbs”? As much as I am watching this weird phenominan, I have never seen orbs.. maybe because I don’t know what they are?
Explain please ?!
Thank you,
Addie.
Addie, cars being covered with sticky layers are not at all unusual – it has to do with the local plant life – usually pollen, or tree sap. Do you park near a tree?. Unexplained respiratory illnesses are also not at all uncommon – you might even be allergic to some of that local plant life.
What is odd is that you choose to connect these to long lasting contrails, of the kind that we can see have been appearing in the sky for 50+ years, and are well explained by science.
Being ignored by your congressman for writing letters about a conspiracy is not evidence of a conspiracy.
Orbs are things high in the sky that people mistake for UFOs, things like balloons, birds, aircraft, wind-blown littter, clouds, stars, planets, etc. People video them, and zoom in so much all you see it a couple of pixels.
If you start looking for orbs, you will see them. It’s the same process for “chemtrails”.
Uncsinus.. please now.. tell me the truth !
Who is paying you to debunk the facts?
Who are you working for ?
Meanwhile we have studied more details on HAARP.. and found connections to the ” mysterious ” “Con”-trails !
I thank you for responding to me, I really do, but for some reason ( and I am very smart, am told !) I do not trust you.
Par Example : 10 years ago, one did not see such weird things in the skies.. correct? Of course you will say that is because we had less airtraffic or something like this.
It does not seem to matter what I say.. you have an uncanny talent to make me sound like a nut.
It’s ok, we know what we know.. those are not contrails .. dear Unc.. them’s Chemtrails !
Addie.
Addie, I wish someone would pay me
But unfortunately I’m just an amateur pilot with an interest in the weather, science, and conspiracy theories.
10 years ago we DID see exactly the same things in the sky. Page after page of documents and photographs can demonstrate this. What happened ten years ago was that Art Bell started discussing contrails on his radio show, and people started to notice them because of it.
This too is easy to demonstrate, just ask anyone who has not heard of contrails if they have noticed that contrails last a real long time. If they have not, then ask them if they ever remember contrails lasting a long time before last year. They won’t, because they never noticed them at all!
That just like you. When did you first notice them? What year? Why are you any different to the average person?
You don’t remember what you don’t notice. Nobody does. If you did not notice persistent contrails, then why would you remember them?
And why would you choose an explanation the flies in the face of all known science? Why not simply “I did not notice persistent contrails before people started talking about them”?
your last sentence is entirely wrong !
I am a sky-watcher, as in, I love to watch nature.. and I look up.. always have.
I noticed these trails.. on my own.. did not read or hear anything about them at all.
I NOTICED them.. about 6 months ago.. when I noticed a jet making them. Then he turned about, and crossed his own trail. This caught my interest ! I kept watching. Then I noticed. that said trails would not dissapate.. but instead.. not only linger, but spread.. and hazed up a good part of the sky. Now, I was curious, and began to really really watch. Since then.. I see when up to 2 planes at a time.. leave the trails.. criss cross them.. and when they are empty, and have to land somewhere.. the sun is reddish.. as if being obscured by oily Goo.
I am not the person, that depends on others to call my attention to things, I am very inquisitive and like to research things that I notice.
Never did I hear a talk-show on the subject.. ever.
Maybe you are correct and this has been ongoing longer than 10 years and if indeed it did, then I did not notice.
But.. now that I have, I am greatly perturbed and just do not believe this phenominan to be ” normal ” but connected to something Bigger.. namely HAARP. The latter.. is a guess ! By the way, my deceased hubby was a pilot, so the skies always were of interest to me !
Thank you for your time !
Addie.
Addie, you say “this” has been going on for ten years, yet you yourself only noticed it six months ago.
That means that YOU DID NOT NOTICE IT for nearly ten year.
So why would you have noticed it before?
Perhaps it’s simply normal contrail that have been in the skies in increasing numbers since the 1940’s, and you just one day noticed them.
If not, explain why you did not notice them for ten years, and how this differs from the previous thirty years or so when you also did not notice them.
Very good question I can not answer.
It’s weird ineed, you got me there.
Maybe because they weren’t there??
I suppose that is the reason.
2 weeks ago, I was really skywatching.. and followed those trails ( am avoiding the word Chemtrails to not upset you ;o)
to Borrego Springs. The skies were covered w. them all the way.. criss cross.. criss cross.. all the way into Imperial Valley.
Did not look like ordinary jet-traffic to me, but it was rather weird looking and the sun shone reddish.
Whatever happened to ” Blue and Gold” gorgeous Southern Cal?
my beautiful California… w. streaked skies.. just not the same..
Overall.. I wish nothing more, than that you were Right !
Addie..
Uncinus, The conditions in the sky above are random and ever changing. Specific conditions are needed for a jets exaust to leave a thick persistent contrail. While I can’t measure the length of these contrails, where is the randomness? When several jets appear to be covering a section of sky with paralell or intersecting contrails, why do they appear to be of similar lengths, where is the randomness?The contrails are never short, 1/4 or 1/2 mile etc., and they are never long, horizen to horizen. Mother nature is random, tank capacities are not. A jet can only carry a given amount of fuel additive, which is switched on in coordination with nearby jets, hence the reason chemtrails are similar in length.
You might want to look at some satellite photos. The length of contrails comes from the size of the region of moist air they are traveling through. This can be quite short, but typically is in regions sized fifty miles and up – hence the common sizes you see.
See here for some examples, and please check out MODIS in your area to get a better overview:
http://contrailscience.com/contrails-above-and-below/
MODIS:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/
Uncinus, you say”The length of contrails comes from the size of the region of moist air they are traveling through” which is correct for true contrails(water vapor). So how come there are no extremley short persistent contrails, and why aren’t there any that cover the whole visable sky? Jets remain at constant altitudes for much of thier flights, and I have seen jets leave normal dissappearing contrails horizen to horizen many times. How come these persistent contrails(chemtrails imo) are never that long? Does mother nature only make one size persistent contrail length moist air region?
There are both kinds of contrails. Google for “broken contrail” to see the short kind, and just about any “chemtrail” site has photos of the long kind.
Of just look through the satellite photos for a while. There are all kinds of lengths of contrails there.
Uncinus, today we had both kinds. Real clouds and Chemtrails.
The difference was very obvious.
All of us are breathing that stuff including you.. why the denial?
Sooner or later, the truth will prevail.
The more people are getting upset about it and write letters and more letters, the sooner somebody is going to have to tell the truth.
And maybe.. just maybe a few honeybees will survive and start pollinating, because our foodsupply is in grave danger.
Oops here I said it, yes, I think it’s the Chemtrails that killed our honeybees !
Rudedog’s comments are excellent, and right on.
I did not know about ” Public Law 95-79 ”
wow, I had no clue, thanx rudedog !
You say the difference is obvious.
But what is the difference?
the weatherclouds were roundish, puffy,soft.. almost luminous looking.. while the other ones were edgy, ragged torrn.. and streaky.
The most noticable thing was.. they were higher than the others.
Also they appeared in certain intervals.. while the real clouds were totally random in locale..
.. as good as I can describe it…
Perhaps you could show a photo to show what you mean? It just sounds like normal variations in clouds to me.
Of course contrail clouds are going to be a bit different to real clouds, they are artificial. So I’m not sure what you point is.
How could you tell they were higher? Do you have a photo or video?
Uncinus.. guess what ! I just came home from my Dr.. hear hear what she said :” All those upper respitory problems and stinging eyes.. it’s increasing so much.. and it’s those Chemtrails causing it “! Quote unquote, and I am no liar !!!!!
Addie.
P S.. sorry I don’t have a video-camera.. can’t comply w. this request.
Addie, I’m afraid that what your doctor tells you is not very useful in terms of evidence. We’ve no way of knowing just what you doctor is basing here assumptions on, or what method she uses to arrive at this conclusion.
What you need is actual evidence. Like some numbers.
How come planes flying at the same altitude at the same time do not all have ‘contrails’. Or why do airplanes start ‘contrails’ at a certain spot (always the same spot) and stop ‘contrails’ a minute later! Why do ‘contrails’ not dissipate in all direction put often have a spine and a thin haze is pulled out of this spine away from it, always in one direction?
I think you are a debunker.
Chemtrails are real, make people sick and are being used in conjunction with HAARP and cellphone towers (amongst others) to make people ill and manipulate the whether! I don’t want any kind of spraying going on where I live. So stop!
Hi Peter Pan. I think all your questions are answered here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/
Thank you Peter Pan.
I was getting tired of arguing, because indeed he is a debunker.
The rest of us know that it’s true.. those are Chemtrails.. and they are making us sick.. period.
I also agree with the Haarp-connection.. and celltowers.
As to what to do? Talk to as many people as you can.. even when you are out and about.. call it to the attention of strangers.. have them look up, you will be surprized how many people don’t have a clue.. Yet !
Addie, yes, you should talk to as many people as possible. Most of them have never noticed these persistent spreading contrails – or at least not paid them much attention.
But why would that be? Why have no scientists noticed this? Why no meteorologists? Why no mainstream journalists? Why no local politicians? Why has hardly anyone noticed these persistent spreading trails?
Could it be perhaps that nothing is new? That these trails have always been like this? That people are not noticing it because NOTHING HAS CHANGED?
Can you provide on shred of evidence that contrails were actually different ten years ago? One sentence written somewhere that describes how contrails SHOULD behave? Because I’ve looked, and all I find are descriptions of contrails dating back to 1940 that describe exactly what we are seeing now.
Nothing has changed. Contrails have always acted like this. You just started noticing them one day, and it went from there.
3 days no Chemtrails.. blue skies.
This is weird.. I wonder if there was absolutely no airtraffic for those 3 days??
No one flew over us? Strange indeed.
We are near a large airport and several small ones.
And not ONE trail in the sky.. ummmmm, it must be the weather !
Exactly. It’s the weather.
I ” jubilated” too early, just came home.. and here.. from the East, mind you, the East.. come creeping the Chems.. stripy. criss crossing the skies. We have westerly winds, so I don’t understand.. how this stuff can move from East to West. Unless of course.. they are higher.. than the winds are blowing.
They will be here overnight.. slowly creeping along.. covering the skies by midnight. Have seen this be4… so I know how it will go.
Where do you live Addie?
I’d urge you to check two things, firstly the weather AT CONTRAIL ALTITUDE (25-35000 feet), which you can find here:
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=SAN&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
Just pick your closest city from the box. Then note the wind direction, the wind speed and the temperature at those altitudes.
Then check the satellite photos from MODIS, here:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/
Scroll down to the map of the US, and pick the region that covers where you are. The photos are taken around noon, and post a few hours after that. There are two photos a day. Fo example, here is todays:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008214.terra.1km
You can press “prev” to go back a day, as far as you like, to see the kind of condition that you get contrails in. There have not been any around here for a long time.
in San Diego..
I was looking east.. toward Borrego.. and there.. over the hills.. creeping westward.. came the criss cross stripes.
I will look up what u gave me, thank you.
See the high res satellite image for today:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008214.terra.250m
You can see the band of moisture coming up from the south.
thank you.. interesting pic..
Yes.. I see moisture coming in from the ocean.. and also from the east ( originating in the south I think ). But Uni.. look, there’s a diff, between those real clouds.. and those, that are lines that spread out.. even criss cross eachother, ah.. I am done discribing it. There’s just no way that you don’t know what I am talking about. You MUST see what I am seeing…… so please Uni, for Truth sake.. Please..
lets have honest exchange here.. because we all are breathing the same stuff.. and we should help eachother.. and not try and prove to be ” RIGHT” ! Something is going on, that isen’t normal, just not.
Have u ever checked out HAARP ? What do you think about that?
I am not interested in argument.. only in getting to the bottom of things.. I would like nothing more.. than peace of mind about this issue. I say.. something is wrong.. you say .. not.
I am no scientist, or pilot, but I can S E E.. ok?
Right now.. real clouds ( ocean-moisture ) is moving in.. and pretty soon it will cover the skies.But what I saw in the East.. were not clouds.. Uni.. just not ! Sorry to be so lengthy.. will try and keep my comments shorter.
Addie, what you saw were contrails, they spread out and crisscross each other – always have.
Contrails form and persist when there is enough moisture in the air.
The clouds in the satellite photos showed that there was moisture in the air.
So what do you see that is “not normal”?
I will make one more comment, ok?
If good people do nothing, they deserve whatever it is they are getting ! As for me, I have been given a conscience and a brain.. so, I am writing, to all agencies and medias I can think of.. and let it fall where it may.
One thing I will not do.. be silent !
As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord !
And He told me, to stand for what is right and honest and honorable.
I can not be deceived, I know what I know, and I see what I see.
It was interesting to have this discussion and I thank you for your time. We are not going anywhere though, so it has become meaningless, and a waste of time.
If you LOOK again, and start to open your eyes real wide, and should see. what others are seeing.. well.. then, let me know.
Addie, I didn’t “do nothing”, I actually did quite a lot – wrote several articles here looking at the evidence presented behind the “chemtrail” theory, and subjecting it to careful analysis.
A discussion should be about collectively examining the evidence, and attempting to discern what theory best fits the facts. I think I’ve shown that the clouds you are seeing are just contrails, and are not unusual. You’ve not presented anything contrary, other the usual “looks odd to me”.
You’ve got to look at the science. Contrail Science.
Aug 6th..
I just took pictures over the skies in SanDiego.
Criss crossing whitish.. and a black trail.. Plus
several small ones. It started in the eastern sky over the desert and w.in 2 hours.. it was over my house ( near the ocean ).
Winds are west to east.
These Chemtrails travelled from east to west. They always seem to do this.
It’s heavy today, and this time I have 20 pictures to prove it.
NOPE them’s no Contrails ! Yuck, we will enjoy breathing that poison..even our flowers are hanging their heads, not joking.
Our wonderful golden California sun.. is obstructed and looks red.. and it is cooler than normal for August.. our hottest month.
Hi Addie, I’d like to look at your photos, can you post them somewhere? Or email them? I’m always interested in examples of “black trails”.
uncinus@gmail.com
Check out the weather today in San Diego.
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=SAN&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
The wind ON THE GROUND is coming from the west, but winds at altitude are coming from the south and the east, sometimes in the opposite direction to ground level winds.
Today’s satellite photo is not up yet, but it would be interesting to compare it to your photos when it is posted
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla
Addie, there is nothing you can say that will make this jerk admit the truth. He created this website for one purpose. That purpose is obvious to anyone that is not a mindless drone. He has the advantage because too many people are afraid to think for themselves. They would rather believe that what they are seeing is what uncinus tells them they are seeing rather than believe their own eyes. It is a much more comfortable world for them to live in as long it can be explained through government sponsered science. Therefore, since uncinus has an explanation for everything, we are all just nut jobs with a conspiracy theory.
Have you ever noticed that all of the articles that uncinus refers to originate from the source that would want this sort of thing covered up if it were going on? Are people so naive that they believe their own leaders would never mislead them? Get real!
I can see how you might thing that back in 1970 NASA might be planning to blanket the world in contrails for some reason, but you also think the Encyclopædia Britannica wants it covered up?
And the Mansfield News Journal, August 11, 1957? They also are part of a cover-up?
http://contrailscience.com/images/L/1959+mansfield-2.jpg
I’m not sure why you bristle at your theory being described as a “conspiracy”, as clearly for it to be true, there would have to have been some quite incredible conspiring over the last 60 years.
I actually encourage people to think for themselves. I encourage you to do it, if you will humor me for a moment – tell me how do you know that contrails rapidly dissipate? Is there ANY science book that actually says this? Any written thing at all that says that contrails don’t ever last more than a few minutes?
to Rudedog : My sentiments exactly, thank you.
Yesterday our skies were a nightmare again.. heavy streaking from East to West.. smartly layed right in front of cumulous-desert clouds, so it would look as if they ” belong” Well… the diff between real and Chem is so very obvious.. people were not fooled for a sec.
We stood outside and took pics.. about 15 neighbors and myself.. we all are writing letters. Not that they will do any good.. but.. we have been heard, this we know.
So far.. today, our skies are clear.. our beloved Blue and Gold California skies !
Have a look at the big picture Addie:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008220.aqua.500m
That’s the satellite photo for yesterday, showing SoCal down to Mexico, you can see there’s a big band of clouds to the east of San Diego. That’s what they are, just clouds. Nothing unusual.
Here’s a wider scale photo:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA5.2008220.aqua.1km
It’s just clouds. That’s what they look like.
Thank you.. great pix..
Do you have a clue what happened here today? ALL day ALL night.. Jets flew over us ( yes I watched them ) and blasted their poison into our skies and I mean.. ALL of the sky was covered, and the sun shone bloodred !
They criss-crossed.. and those trails expanded and expanded.. people were staring at the sky. We all started talking and I think.. about 100 letters will go to Senators and media today.. we are so sick of this. We want to know What they are spraying and what it does to us.. today was the worst Ever.. and I have too many witnesses to count , all of them, or most.. making videos of this unbelievable mess..
we are angry and demand an answer.
I called a congressman’s office and registered a complaint, we shall see…
Addie, IT’S THE WEATHER, look, here’s the satellite photo for that day from around noon. You live to the left of that lake in the middle of the picture:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008225.aqua.500m
See all the wispy clouds? That’s moisture in the air. Planes fly through that air and leave contrails. There’s a few persistent trails on the right.
Check the previous day:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008224.aqua.500m
Less moisture, less contrails.
Uncinus, can you please explain what is happening in the youtube video “Chemtrails ?? watch for yourself “. Please bear with the terrible audio noise in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqZQjxCW3U4
It’s a sky that’s overcast with the remains of several contrails.
A plane is flying through, makes a 90 degree left turn, continues for two minutes, then makes a 90 degree right turn to continue on its original heading.
It was probably just making a course correction – most likely as a response to Air Traffic Control to allow it to fly around traffic that was ahead of it, or to let traffic behind it pass it safely.
Thank you to Rudedog and Addie for your gallant attempts to reveal the TRUTH! Addie, did Uni-anus ever answer your question about HAARP? Of course not. I am sure he is fully aware of this organization, however, like a politician (or criminal) he will LIE LIE LIE through his teeth to protect himself or his “CAMPAIGN”! It is absolutely not a conspiracy “theory” – it is a real threat to the lives of US citizens (AND Canada and England and …?). I will apologize for Anus’s insensitivity to your respiratory problems, Addie, as I know you are suffering and my heart goes out to you (and the honeybees)! Hey, U-anus, have YOU given us any numbers??? In your so-called merry go round answers you never mentioned William Thomas’ Contrails: Pioson From The Sky and his REAL RESEARCH! How about MIT physicist Bernard Eastlund of HAARP who in 1985 was granted the patent for “directing energy beams of more than 1 billion watts can be used for altering the upper atmoshere wind patterns using plumes of atmospheric particles as a lens or focusing device” to disturb weather conditions thousands of miles away. Sunday, May 17, 1998 the jets were seen with their chemtrails which was immediately followed by a tornado. Or Everett Burton who when doing an interview on C-Span about the impeachment of Clinton was completely shut off when he started to mention CHEMTRAILS! Kentucky closed down schools in 5 counties because all the children were ill with flu-like symptoms (Doctors found it NOT to be a flu but a fungal infection not yet identified). For a chemtrail timeline by William Thomas check out fourwinds10.com which refers to military operations such as Operation Cumulus, Operation Popeye, oh and yeah that other “little law” aka the UN Treaty called ENMOD. To the #1-Anus (since you are the “expert”) -What are “Storm Enhancement”, “Storm Modification” and “Induce Drought” operations by the US aerospace forces to “own the weather” by 2025??? THOUSANDS are affected by these chemtrails and I can only wonder would Anus be so confident in his flimsy worthless words if HE were experiencing the painful repercussions of these chemtrails that sprinkle webs of “imaginary” Ethyl Dibromide and JP-8 jet fuel into our lungs??? Poor Anus, you are so far up someone’s ASS that you can’t recognize the truth. I will not compliment you on your site as I consider it AND YOU a web of BULLSHIT! Keep spinning. Careful of the black widow of time and consequences for your outright deception. The truth will prevail. Unfortunately, it is just as ugly and inhumane as Uni-anus has proven to be.
Hi warrior, thanks for the questions.
HAARP operates on the ionosphere which starts at 160,000 feet. Therefore there can be no connection to contrails.
I could not find any actual research by William Thomas – just some option pieces from about 10 years ago. Can you give me a reference to some research? Was there analysis?
Jet’s leave contrails all the time. Tornadoes happen all the time. It’s hardly surprising they would happen at the same time occasionally. And you just mention once occurrence from 1998? That does not seem like strong evidence of correlation, let alone causation.
If contrails are spreading this fungus, then why would only five schools in Kentucky be affected? A single contrail can affect thousands of square miles – so why only the schools? Why not the neighborhood? It seems more likely it was something unrelated – to do with poor school maintenence.
Operation Cumulus, Operation Popeye, “Storm Enhancement”, “Storm Modification”, and “Induce Drought”are all CLOUD SEEDING weather modification programs. This is nothing unusual, as cloud seeding experiments have been going on for 80 years. Cloud seeding takes place INSIDE CLOUDS. So a contrail in a clear blue sky cannot be cloud seeding.
I’m sorry if you are ill. But it seems far more likely that car exhaust would have a effect on your health than jet exhaust. Jet exhaust is the same regardless of if it produces a contrail or not – that simply depends upon the weather.
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_1.html
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_2.html
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_3.html
Uncinus – Oops, my mistake, it was 7 KY counties AND I only neglected to add that other victims are the elderly and the weak/vulnerable (such as those w/asthma) but I figured you already knew that! I have read the facts and have seen “the numbers”. Now, it is your turn. You can tell it is not biased because it reveals the arguments people all over (US, Canada, Germany, Europe, New Mexico) have had w/US Air Force and other debunkers such as yourself. Both sides are represented. It appears that we have a division here between those who care about human life and those like you. Read every word and TRY (do your very best) to learn something called the TRUTH! I do not have questions for you as I see you will never stop spinning your web of deceit.
My goal is that these sites will demonstrate to Addie, Rudedog and other concerned people (like myself- ill or just sick to our stomach from the facade) that we are not as stupid as you hoped. I mean, come on, orbs as “plastic bags” or “weather balloons”? Have you seen the photos? Get real.
Timeline 1 – even Sen Lieberman wrote the EPA and recieved a silent response. January 8, 2000 meat trucks used as morgues since hospitals overflow w/patients. March 2, chemtrails vanish when tankers are grounded.
In Timeline 2 read about Jan 1, 2003 when Russia seeks HAARP ban! And yes I realize tornados can occur anywhere but what does it say about hurricanes Frances and Ivan? I am sure you have a way to explain all of this away. Feb 16, town council in Greece condemns chemtrails. Canadian Petition Number 372-1644 presented to Federal Government- spinning again-point for you!
Timeline 3, read and tell me what Connie Fogal says. Nevermind, I already know since I have done my research. Dec 7 Air Force pilot admits spraying from KC-135 and KC-10s. He also states “we are not supposed to talk about it”. March 8, 2006 – lung cancers surge across US. Timeline 3 – “The term chemtrail does not refer to common forms of aerial dumping (eg cropdusting, cloud seeding or aerial firefighting)”. Let me remind you this is illegal due to ENMOD – UN Treaty “Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any Hostile use of Environmental Modification” or the deliberate manipulation of natural processes to cause phenomena such as earthquakes, tidal waves and changes in the climate and weather patterns”.
Now, you admitted yourself that crop-seeding affects the weather so you should agree on this point. Unfortunately, it really doesn’t matter what you want to call it – contrails, chemtrails, conspiracy theory or delusions, orbs or plastic bags etc etc lie lie lie! HARMLESS? Absolutely not!!! The reality is WHATEVER – (EDB, quartz crystals, barium, magnesium, aluminum) – these jets are spraying into our poor Earth’s atmosphere (AND THEY ARE SPRAYING) is detrimental to humans of all ages and will have dire repercussions to all species. Maybe someday you will learn.
Oh, and by the way, I am not ill; Addie is and thousands of others all over the planet. I just happen to CARE. Try it. It is called “empathy” or “compassion” look’m up. Again, try your very best.
The problem with William Thomas is that is writing is so full of inaccuracies and dubious eyewitness interpretations, that it’s hard to believe any of it with confidence.
He says:
Obviosly he does not check his sources, as that report has been shown to be wrong by a factor of 100. They actually found 0.03 times the allowable limits. See:
http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/
He has this photo:
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_3/IMAG016.JPG
Which says: “500 Km long trails … Water Vapour”
Yes, water vapor. At a normal cruising speed of 900 km/h, a Boeing 777 would only take 33 minutes to lay down a 500 Km long trail. This is not at all unusual.
Then he says:
Showing this image:
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willthomasonline/Chemtrails_Timeline_3/IMAG001.JPG
No, it’s not a refueling probe, it’s a spraying device for testing in-flight icing, as shown here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/
He gives no references. No statistics. No actual numbers at all. It is riddled with inaccuracies (I gave three, but could go on for hours).
I seems his entire thesis was based on some newspaper reports of overflowing emergency rooms (which you can find for every year if you look – pick a year and I’ll find some), and then a tenuous connection to contrails. He then started looking for evidence, selecting only the evidence that supported his theory.
I’m not going to wade through that mess any more that I just have. If I can find three MAJOR errors in five minutes, then it’s pointless continuing. Tell you what, warrior, why don’t you pick what you think is the ONE strongest VERIFIED FACT that you think supports “chemtrails”. Then we’ll discuss that.
Up here in Alberta, Canada i have noticed 737 type jets that have the ability to change their contrail, consistancy… also, when this happens it takes place over 30deconds! Normal ,regular contrail——Thick, long and FLAT——Normal–ect…… WHY???
It’s because they are flying through different regions of air. The atmosphere is not uniform at all. Some areas, like clouds, have a lot more moisture than others. When the planes flies through a region with more or less moisture, then its contrail will change.
Warrior, can I hug you please? You brought tears to my eyes. I am not as educated as you are.. and am amazed at your research, not to mention your compassion for me. Thank you !
I know you are correct, I have done my research also, overall the NWO-plan is, to rid the planet of the plague of people. Sadly, people are fast asleep, so ” they” are succeeding !
I grew up under communism, and immigrated to the US.. after I escaped them, when I was all of 17. I have seen much in my life, and these wonderful United States… whom I fell so in Love with when I came here.. are entering a phase.. a life, a government, that I am familiar with, because I grew up under such horrid conditions.
I still love the US, but.. what I escaped.. is following me, I feel it, and know it.
People are naive and do not want to hear. I know, and whenever I bring it up, they say that I have an overactive imagination. Well… I do not, I know Real from Fake, been there.. done it.Our weather here in CA is hot in August, but this year.. it’s actually cool.. here near the Pacific, we have not had temps higher than 78. The Norm is more like 85 to 90.
This right there.. tells me something is wrong. My family in Europe tells me, they have those Chemtrails going on too, just not as much as we do.
The last 3 days we have been Chemtrail-free, and looking at our beautiful CAL-sky the last 3 days.. I cried a lot, and thanked God for this incredible beauty, and asked Him to please protect us from all this Evil.
This is the Best I know what to do.
You, warrior, encouraged me, and with all my heart, I thank you.
Addie ;o)
PS.. I will look up all the sites you mentioned !
Marcah.. please stay in touch and tell us, what you notice in Canada.. as for us here in CAL.. we are being sprayed almost daily.. by God knows what kind of poisons..
Criss crossing Chemtrails.. that block the sun and makes it appear red.
Please stay in touch,
Addie.
Addie, you wrote:
Weather varies a lot naturally. It does not take contrails to have the weather vary. It varies a lot from year to year.
What city do you live in? Do you know the average August temperatures for the last 100 years? If you don’t then how can you say this is anything unusual? San Diego has a normal high in August of 77.8 degrees.
These are the kind of statistics you need:
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMONtavt.pl?casand
Simply saying: “it seems cooler now”, is not good science.
I am no Scientist, I can go only by what I have experienced in the 20 plus years I have lived here.
Our Augusts have been cooler in the last 3 or 4 years, that’s a Fact, dear Uni.
Please don’t make me out to be a dunce.. ok?
Sure, maybe it has been cooler. But what I’m asking is: is this unusual if you look at the last 100 years of weather? Would it be at all unusual to have four hot years, then four cool years? Why is that unusual?
I wasen’t around 100 years ago, and I have not studied the stats.
Maybe it’s normal, maybe it’s not, Since this still is a 1/2 ways free country, I will voice my opinion and say.. it’s the Chems doing it, because I notice that it gets a lot cooler.. when the sun shines reddish.. and the Chems are throwing their supernasty shadows.
I just talked to my attorney-buddy Rick, we are tossing a Class action lawsuit around, so far only in planning stages.. hmm, that would get interesting ! Now I will look at the sites u sent me.. thanx Uni..
hahaha Uni, good one, I just checked out that site.. my goodness, I will take my hat off to you and your research on the matter of climatechange, but I will read it tomorrow..
Wow.. a long list, too much for tonight.
Good night ;o)
weird thing, there must not be any airplanes in the air around San Diego for the last 4 days. No body flying?
Not a one Chemtrail in 4 days now.. not even one.
Of course it could be the weather ;o)
Either way, we are so happy with our Blue and Gold California skies.
May it stay this way.. we can always hope.
I will post again, if they start up again….. spraying ! Right now.. we are soo enjoying this Beauty of clear blue skies.
Addie, it IS the weather, and you can prove it:
Look at the Satellite photo for the last four days
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008232.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008231.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008230.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008229.terra.1km
Then look at the previous four days photos:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008228.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008227.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008226.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla.2008225.terra.1km
You see – clouds over the land – meaning moisture in the air – on the days you have contrails, and no clouds on the days you do not.
Of course the planes are still flying – they just don’t make contrails when the air is dry at their altitude.
It’s the weather.
Excellent exchange going on here. I think all participants actually BELIEVE what they are saying ~ even Uncinus … & he HAS uncovered a few misinterpreted photos of supposed chemtrail-spraying aircraft, for which he deserves credit.
I recommend that Uncinus read Jim Marrs’ book “Rule by Secrecy” & Steven Jones’ report from the physics/astronomy department of Brigham Young University regarding the controlled demolition of the 3 (not 2) buildings in NYC on 20010911. (We invaded Afghanistan mainly to get the opoium, oil/gas pipelines, & control of the mideast ~ as pointed out by Zbignew Brzezinsky’s “The Grand Chessboard” and the “Project for a New American Century.” Also check out http://www.jamescasbolt.com/future.htm for a description of over a thousand DUMBs (deep underground military bases), Phil Schneider’s last lecture in 1995 (before he was strangled with a piano wire), & http://www.educate-yourself.org/mc for starters in comprehending the bigger picture of what is controlling this planet.
Uni, I looked at most of your sites, and I appreciate your effort to find me all those.
It seems to make sense, I see what u mean.
But the fact remains.. that most days.. those planes actually do circle and criss cross their own trails, and same spread out.. all over, and never go away. It is ugly and scary.
Tell you what: Next time I see the Chemtrails, I will blog and tell you, then you look it up.. and you tell me.. what you see.. deal?
Thank you,
Addie
Sure Addie, but you can check for yourself, if you go to this page:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_La_Jolla
It will always give you the latest photo (today’s is not all there yet). Then just click on the first image.
Good Vibes.. all the things u mentioned, I am informed about. I read all of it.. and much more. We could get into this subject.. sure.. but Uni started this site to discuss the Chemtrails ( as he calls them Contrails )
Personally I would love to discuss your Texe Marrs books, and Phil Schneider.. and all that stuff that is going on..
But it’s up to Uni, it is his Blog, so ask him 1. ok?
Addie.
I’d prefer to keep the discussions to contrails (and the chemtrail theory).
educate-yourself.org is not a good source though. They think that there are a race of alien beings called “Sylphs” living in the atmosphere fighting the chemtrails, and that you can clear up chemtrails with orgone generators.
http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/sylphessayindex.shtml
Rather unusual stuff – all the photos of “Sylphs” are normal cirrus clouds. Example text:
I’d need a little independent evidence before I accepted anything on that site.
HI everyone!! I was driving home on a heavy “contrail” afternoon, when suddenly a BLOB of clear “jelly-like” substance hit my windsheild!!!?? There were NO cars in front of me at all. As I continued to drive, it spread into a dry semi -transparent , “CRYSTAL” !!!?? WTF!!!!! Also I have found “streaks” of a similar reflective stuff on the sidewalk ouside my house .
The science of contrails is established. FINE!! However, I do think that this is exactly the reason a “Program” of extream measures (aliens are F–ing around with the sun) can exist. Why tell the public about a threat which “WE” do not “completely” understand how to deal with… Look at WEATHERWARS.net ,then click on SOHO!!! This is the kinda day it has been here in Canmore,Alberta… CANADA!!!! OH yeah what is the mist in the mountains on ultra DRY days????
PS………… I know you are a bright and well educated individual!!!!! SO how about that SUN ????????????????
I notice you did not post my correction to the James Casbolt website, Uncinus.
Sylphs are not aliens. Gnomes (earth), undines (water), sylphs (air), & salamanders (fire) are “elementals” which live within & nourish their respective media. You would learn much, Uncinus, from theosophy ~ especially the writings of C.W. Leadbeater.
Until you become more aware of realities outside the very limited spectrum of your 5 physical senses, you will continue to dismiss hidden truths.
You may be correct about weather playing a key role in the condensation of contrails … but by the same token chemtrails may not show up on dry warm days.
If gnomes can live in the earth then why cannot contrails exist in warm air?
If you deny science, then you cannot use it.
Hey uncicus, honestly is there a possibility of a legitimate program similar to the current chemtrail understandings or not…?? I have always looked up for all 33 yrs of my life and never did I remember contrails like this…
Is this only since “the GE90&Rolls Trent” era? I know that these turbines have very “high bypass ratios”. This feature allows more condesation!
I do have an open mind to your logical perspective, however how can so many people have the wrong idea??
Thank you buddie; Marcah J.R. (crankster7@hotmail.com)
Marach, of course it’s “possible”, it’s just highly improbably.
Lots of things are possible to some small amount. But just because there is a tiny 0.00001% chance of something being possible, does that mean we need to give it as much attention as tings that are 99.9999% possible?
The amount of people believing in something is not always a good indication of it’s correctness. Lots of people believed the earth was flat. Lots of people believe that angels watch over them. Lots of people believe they have been abducted by aliens. Lots of people believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Are all these theories correct because a lot of people believe in them?
The “high bypass ratio” thing is interesting. I’m going to do a bit more research to see exactly what is up. They certainly will produce BIGGER contrails, but I’m not sure how much more persistent they will be. I’ll get back to you.
The Chemtrails have changed in shape. They no longer leave the long trails and the criss cross, but instead… they are plumes.. shaped oblong, all in measured distances from eachother. too many people noticed so they changed the pattern, but to the ( by now ) trained eye, you can tell the difference. Also, the sun shines reddish through them.. very obvious. This has been going on for about one week around here.
Again Addie – it’s the weather.
When the weather changes, then contrails will also change.
lol Unci, I am starting to like your sense of humor, and your tenacity, you are almost as good as I am ;o)
I was being serious. It is the weather that causes the differences in contrails.
Here’s a site where you can see what planes are overhead.
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KSAN
Click on the map with the blue and green planes in the top right.
That’s just the planes in the air RIGHT NOW. It goes on all day, every day. Exactly the same. Except, when the weather is right, they make contrails and you can see them. When the weather is otherwise, then they don’t make contrails, so are a lot harder to see.
That’s all there is to it.
That airtraffic is unbelievable, I looked at your link, again, thank you.
What I meant was : I like to see a bit of humor , even in serious matters.. and it was meant as a compliment, I know u were serious, so am I. this does not exclude a good chuckle ever here and there.. does it?
Wow, I can’t believe those planes day in and day out.
I met someone from Alaska, at a party this afternoon, I asked him about HAARP.. and he explained a lot to me about it.. very very interesting stuff.
I grew up in Alaska, Addie …
Methinx Unc missed my point.
Email me if so inclined, Addie.
goodvibes.. what is your e-mail?
I tried, but it’s not working…
Check
Can contrails affect “venticular” clouds???? Do you have pics of these type of clouds from ages ago???
HI all! I made a mistake weatherwars.info ( NOT .net)
marcah, I think you mean lenticular clouds?
Lenticular clouds are roughly circular clouds that usually form over mountains. They can look very impressive.
While they can form at contrail altitudes, it’s unlikely that contrails would contribute much to their development. In fact, pilots are trained to avoid lenticular clouds, as they indicate very turbulent weather conditions.
Lenticular clouds are natural clouds, and as such have been observed since the dawn of time. They were originally called “cap clouds”, as they form a cap over the mountain.
Being such pretty clouds, they show up in any old book on clouds. There’s one on the cover of “Clouds of the World”, published in 1972. See also plate 73 of “Cloud Studies in Colour”, published in 1967.
They spray portland all the time, been watching for 2 years. Someone told me they come from evergreen aviation, which is only 30 miles away. A lot of Oregonians have taken notice and have had resperatory problems after the lovely “contrails” spread across the sky and make there way to the ground. A lot less blue sky, even when they forecast sunny conditions, the “contrails” destroy all traces of blue sky. Ive noticed a rainbow effect in them that leads me to believe they are chemical in nature. I’m no scientist but i know when somethings changed when you live in a place all your life, and suddenly the skies above are very different. I don’t care if it is used to combat “global warming” lol, but they need to stop messing with our weather or it will bite us in the ass. I don’t expect anything but criticism for my post, but uni is obviously in the loop, so it is pointless to argue.
The Evergreen Aviation thing is an interesting misunderstanding. Evergreen make a supertanker that is supposed to be used for fire control. However, they only have one, and it dumps its entire load in less than a minute – so it can hardly be responsible for the trails you are seeing.
http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/index.html
No, what you are seeing are normal contrails. There’s more air traffic now than there was 10 years ago, and you’ve just noticed the trails two years ago. Note some people noticed them ten years ago. So if you failed to notice them for 8 years, then why is it at all odd that you did not notice them in the previous ten years?
Most people have STILL not noticed them. You don’t notice what you are not looking for.
Thank you native !
I am noticing something else lately.
We have clouds over the desert in the afternoon and little thunderstorms, so we are use to seeing those clouds.. yet they never come far west.. they stay over those mountains and the desert,
Lately, I notice.. that in front of those thunderclouds “they” are laying the Chemtrails in spurts.. like streaks then clear.. then another streak.. and so on. The whole thing looks different than the thunderclouds and.. THIS stuff moves all the way west.. over us. Once it reaches us.. the sun turns reddish and very weird looking.
“They” think we don’t notice because they put them right in front of the real clouds. But.. we DO notice, there is an obvious difference.
The breathingtrouble people are having are increasing.. including my own. It is a conspiracy of silence and we all know it.
The NewAge goal.. to rid the planet of the pleague of people.. in action ! Just am wondering why those pilots think, their families aren’t breathing the same crap?! Maybe they were immunized.. who knows.
Something stinks to high heaven, and more and more people are waking up.. sad to say:” A Bit Late ….”
I understand that you are eliminating my comments from your blog which only confirms my opinion of you. By refusing to enter my opinions on your blog you are really telling me I know what I am talking about. You are just afraid to let the TRUTH be told!
I remove comments that consist only of insults towards people here. This site is contrail SCIENCE. If you would like to post some comments on the science, then I’d be happy to see them.
Addie-
persistent contrails are often found in front of weather systems…please research ice supersaturation to understand the nature of the atmosphere above you.
I do not understand why you remain ignorant of the processes in the atmosphere and yet you believe you know what is happening in the sky above you.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
SR1419..
Don’t think for a sec that you could fool me.. I’d know you anywhere by now.
And you either are part of it all.. or just plain in denial.. either way, I don’t like you much !
I do not think that Uncinus is attempting to manipulate anyone . This person KNOWS about atmospheric science! However… Those who are involved with, —- —— —— —–weather “modification”aka.chemtrail science also KNOW the established understandings. It is for that reason alone “they” can perform such a complex operation, UNDER COVER. Consider this, each type of”sky application” may be tailored to appear like… regular, normal , CONTRAILS>
marcah.. the ones we are having since about 2 weeks, are exactly that: Tailormade to look like real clouds..
But they are not.. contrails or clouds.. they are bonified real Chemtrails.
They tend to spray according to the wind patterns. If a storm is coming in, they run parallel to it, laying down trails in front of the approaching front, the “contrails” (heh) then blow down into the valley and the chemicals fall to earth with the rain. If there is hardly any wind, they lay a lattice work of “contrails” to decend to the ground almost like a blanket.
Curiously, yesterday I saw them flying lots of circular patterns, and I have no idea what that does other than create clouds that look like thunder heads but produce no rain. Go ahead tear me apart Uni, I don’t care, its amusing to see your responses. (by the way, i was working consruction for the last 5 years working 6-10’s and I didn’t have much time to pay attention to the sky. That changed about 2 years ago when it became obvious to many people, including me, that portland was getting sprayed by something, because after a “contrail” filled day people were getting sick.
thanx native, those are my observations exactly.
Since we have thunderclouds over the desert, they lay those trails directly in front of them…. funny thing is, the thunderclouds remain East over the mountains, the ” fake clouds ” separate.. and move West.. over to us, at the beach.
It is interesting to watch as it is sickening.
Not one reply yet.. from any of the places I sent mail to.. not even one..
by the way : My eyes are blurry and burning.. my chest hurts, I am coughing, and weirdly enough, I do NOT have a cold or know of any ” allergies” except the man-made ones !
Back to you Addie, Thank you for the hug!!!
Thank you to Marcah for all your valid points. Uncinus, none of this was an insult yet you left it out…I was actually searching for “sylphs” when I found your site. I do believe they exist and are real. Angels, aliens, leprechauns, boogieman, LochNess Monster, Jesus walking on water, orbs, near-death experiences, black holes, infinite universes beyond our little tiny sky, string theory and it’s eleven dimensions (SCIENTISTS have THE NUMBERS TO PROVE IT!)- ALL OF IT can be real to anyone who chooses to believe in them. Addie, you know how your CA Sun isn’t always such a “sunny delight” anymore? You wonderful, wonderful woman, your eyes are perfectly fine. It is NOT the weather. We don’t need to be Einsteins or Stephen Hawkings to KNOW and FEEL what is true.
Warrior, I think you mistaken about the 11 dimensions. Firstly, scientists do NOT have the numbers to prove it. What you are talking about is called M-Theory, and is simply a theory about the way the universe works. There’s currently no way of testing if it is correct or not (although the Large Hadron Collider might help there).
Secondly, and more importantly, the “11 dimensions” are probably not the kind of dimensions you think they are. A “dimension” is not a parallel universe, or some other world like heaven, or the fairy land. A dimension is simply a way of measuring the universe – the first four dimensions being “up”, “right”, “forward” and “time”. Just things you can measure. The other theorized dimensions are difficult to explain, but are basically just other measurements of directions in space.
If anyone is interested, here’s a video to confuse you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsgoXvnStY
Warrior, sorry.. bu bu but, I don’t understand one dern thingy you are saying. Nothing makes sense to me.. least of all the Sylphs etc… and never mind the Einsteins and the Hawkings.. what the Kitty’s foot.. does any of this have to do w. those confounded miserable Chemtrails? Write again please, and make it simple please.. for those of us ( me ) w. only an average IQ and no scientific background or scientific education. Mercy please.. ok?
Lots of air traffic the last few days, not a “contrail” to be seen. Same temps and humidity as Thursday, which was “contrail” filled for as far as the eye could see. Strange how that is. They gave us a break! I think i’ll go to a park and enjoy it.
Oregon Native, Here’s today’s (Tuesday 9/9/2008) Oregon satellite photo:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_HJAndrews.2008252.aqua.1km
Clear, except for fires.
And here’s from last Thursday:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_HJAndrews.2008248.aqua.1km
And the full size version:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_HJAndrews.2008248.aqua.250m
And the overview
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA1.2008248.terra.2km
If you zoom in, you can see wispy high altitude clouds everywhere, with a bank over Portland. If you zoom in on the cloud bank, you can see that the contrails only form INSIDE the region of high humidity.
Remember, it’s not the temperature and humidity on the ground that’s important – it’s where the planes are flying (around 30,000 feet).
so how about the high- bypass ratio turbines??
I have been reading an essay on “air pharmacology” written by Jim Phelps, who claims to have invented generation 1 and 2 methods for sky application of ionizing chemistry. Very interesting!!!!!!This essay was written in 2005. The author claims that the government is trying to dump, “Hydrogen fluorine” into space and down with precipitation. He states that HF is not only super toxic but it is also destroying our ozone layer.?????????
Yeah, Phelps claims to have invented chemtrails. But offers no actual evidence. Claims are pretty pointless without evidence. Even the extreme chemtrails affectionados don’t give him much credence:
http://educate-yourself.org/lte/jimphelpschemtrailarticle15apr05.shtml
High-bypass turbines are interesting. I’ve heard they produce longer lasting contrails, but I’m not yet clear on why they should. Seems like the contrails would initially be wider, but as less fuel it burnt, then less water would be introduced into the atmosphere.
I’d be happy if anyone has clarification on this.
hey!! I live in Canmore, Alberta right on the edge of the rocky mountains. Why do the aircraft in question leave contrails over the EXACT same region ?? Air masses move around causing humidity to shift at random, right?? It seems to appear as though the planes are manipulating the weather, and that perhaps this region is plays a critical role in say, moving the jetstrem?? It just seems odd that the same conditions are present almost daily in the same spot!!! Even the contrails CHANGE at that same location. Honestly I have a passion for aviation. Is it possible to add a valve to the high bypass section of the turbine to distibute whatever material through the motor housing. This type of system would make it very difficult to tell the difference between chem. vs. contrail!! Consider the material was in a water base mix, which would create naturally appearing condesation. I have noticed the planes possibly SIMULATING a contrail (water added only) before the “Change in contrail” to a thicker section (chemtrail)and then finally back to a short instantly dissipating (fake) contrail??!!!!!!
Marach, when you say “the EXACT same region”, what region are you referring to? And how do you know that contrails are not forming in other regions?
Have a look at this photo. It’s a region just south of you (Montana), and shows cloud condition ona day with a lot of contrails. As you can see, on that day, contrails are everywhere the moisture is, and not in any particular region. They just show up when planes fly through a region with moisture in the high atmosphere.
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_Missoula.2008252.aqua.1km
Now, of course it’s possible for something to be injected into contrails. But you’ve got to ask your self: is there any evidence that people are doing this? Any evidence at all?
Marcah ^5 and thank you.
this is exactly what I am observing, w.out being able to express myself as scientifically as you do !
Contrails can form clouds too? So what? Is that nothing to be concerned about???
Furthermore, the moment a contrail forms a cloud, it is actually a chemtrail, so what is your strange debunking logic about?
The thing is Jonathan, contrails have ALWAYS formed clouds. Nothing has changed, and nobody is going around deliberately making cloud cover from contrails on a large scale. It’s just a side effect of normal air traffic.
But you are right that it’s something to be concerned about. See this report for more datails:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/003.htm
OK….. What I am trying too tell you is, these aircraft are usually diplaying a common, short and instantly dissipating contrail. Then in the same piece of airspace, (looking west from hwy 1 Trans -Canada on my way back from work in Calgary, centered above the the foothills of the rocky mountains)the contrail becomes longer and longer then breaks off after about 30 sec or so. Next the contrail returns INSTANTLY, to a short , normal contrail.(FAKE!!!!) All the while other aircraft within 500 feet of each other are running around the same region without any contrail!!! I think these operations have been recently geared with condensation simulators in the motors, to appear as legitimate CONTRAILS!!!!!
Like I stated b4,Those who have created the Cloverleaf program have done ther homework…. They have mastered a bunch of systems with which to possibly hide evidence about exactly W.T.F. is going on. Maybe… The SUN is being altered by another lifeform way out there, and perhaps ,we are only an EXPERIMENT to them.Kinda like a great big Biological mess flying around the grat star THE SUN!!! P.S. everyone, the aircraft in question are usually in pairs in long distance formation. (One chems. out while the other follows with NO chems, 3 MIN. apart)
Here’s a crazy idea related to Chemtrails. The idea is to reduce sunlight over mass populated areas. Evidence to back it up, the sunlight over the UK during August 2008 was 67% of the average August sunlight seen during the 30 year period between 1960 and 1990 (see MetOffice.gov website).
Ok so there is a set of evidence from a valid source. Reason for decreasing sunlight??? Check out the following link on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28aMSjkcirM
Just a theory but what do you think?
Year variations don’t really mean very much. Especially in the UK, the weather varies a lot naturally. One year it might be sunny every day in August, and the next year (in August) hardly sunny at all.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/seriesstatistics/uksun.txt
So yeah, August was a gloomy month, the gloomiest on record. But since the records only go back 90 years, this is hardly surprising.
And you think it might be because humans have been genetically modified by aliens to have little glass photoreceptor fibers that eat photons and remove the need for food allowing us to ascend to a higher level of consciousness. So why exactly would they be trying to reduce the sunlight?
Who knows?? I would personally need to see if my skin has “grown” small nanotubes that are directing photons of light into my body as an energy source. Until then I reserve judgement on the man in the video. As for aliens genetically engineering humans, well that is not entirely ridiculous when you consider that we can genetically engineer. Who is to say that a much more advanced race could not have reached a further stage than us (lets hope some people have somewhere!) and ventured back here to change us (for the better or for their owns means).
Personally I do not really know what to believe as it is all speculation without evidence. As for weather changes, evidently they are real whether it be natural or man-made and they are affecting us.
As for the nanotubes, I don’t think the man in video thinks they are alien genetic engineering – he thinks it is an evolutionary process brought on by a conscious change in humanity (unless I am totally misunderstanding him). We as a race are realising our potential and are being freed from the shackles (be that financial, emotional or mind control) and entering into a stage where we can live upon light and water alone (much like plants). So to answer your question about the reason for reducing light, I would assume (reading between the lines) it would be to prevent humanity from realising they can take energy from light and don’t need food, or at least to slow down this realisation process.
Anyway, lets stick to facts for the moment. Persistent contrails/chemtrails are real (although not today – yet) – as for the nanotubes, lets just wait and see ;o)
very heavy “contrails” over Portland Oregon today, appear to be at different altitudes to me.
That would be because of the weather. Contrails DO sometimes form at differing altitudes, and sometimes only in a narrow band of altitude. It depends on the weather.
on 27 Jul 2008 at 5:13 pm 35Addie
So, I see I wasn’t the first to call this traitor on his ignorant, propaganda that is directed toward young people trained for years by our dumb-down education system to accept anything they’re told–all of you under age 30–good for you for standing your ground and fighting this attack on our bodies by the elite who have special underground places to go when this comes around–what do you think happened to the billions missing from European banks, oh yeah, a trader spent billions on whose watch?? ridiculous.
A trillion that hasn’t been appropriated and won’t be for 6 months for this bailout in America??
25% missing from department of defense?? Trillions or billions??]
This is my theory–we are being sprayed with chemicals for mind control or something more sinister to attack over-population. Hence, the detention camps built all over the nation by Halliburton.
People– dam it–LISTEN
Chemtrails don’t just appear in 3 days in a rural area in Kentucky that hasn’t had contrails for months or air traffic for months–this is wrong.
Traffic of planes is non-existant here.And why would you cloud seed for rain when the crops are dried and season is over in October??DUH-
Truth????? there was a hole in the metal shield in this part of the atmosphere and the hole had to be repaired–
3 days, count the chemtrail patterns, then the swelling of the atmosphere for 30 hours on the third day, then clear skies……………….
Wait…….where are the planes that criss-crossed for 3 days??
Ah, no traffic of planes after the 3 days?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I suppose Uncinus will try to tell us that flouride is safe to ingest also. Is it just me, or does anyone see how obvious his agenda is on this blog? He has a misleading web link to refer to after every lie as if it is some kind of evidence to back up his explanation about what we are seeing. Very vigilant about attempting to debunk anything that does not conform to his false propaganda. How dare you try to tell me that what I see with my own eyes and physically experience on a daily basis is not really happening. You have made it obvious that you are going to stick to your ridiculous explanations even if the poison were sprayed directly in your face. The things that Uncinus says are so ridiculous that it is an insult to my intelligence. Perhaps Uncinus lives in an area that is chemtrail free and he actually believes what he says because he does not know any better. If so, then I want to know why his home is not subject to these chemical warfare attacks, which by the way are perfectly legal as a result of of this little gem:
CONTINUE SPREADING THE WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE ARE BEING CONTAMINATED–I’M 58 YEARS OLD–TRUST ME –I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT –I HAVE NO CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!
I LAID AT A POOL AT MY OLD HOUSE FOR 13 YEARS —THIS IS PROGRESSING AS THE PROCESS GOES THROUGH CHANGES–WHY?? DON’T KNOW.
Here is a hint for you, barium salts, ‘ducting’ and 3-D mapping are involved. Hope that I am not being ‘mis-leading’ by mentioning this Navy program. Are you ready to admit that aerosol programs are already in use ?
As for my links on contrails being used for over the horizon radio communications during the US Gulf War I, I am looking for a link that is still viable, got a few 403 not found and re-directs so far, I will find a decent link I hope, just have a time crunch at the moment. Nick Begich, in his book Angels don’t play this HAARP discusses the use of contrails for radio communications during the first Gulf war, but I’ll re-post with some web data for you very soon.
As for the orbs, numerous websites detail them, but keep looking up as I am confident you will see them yourself moving through contrails. Take photos of contrails to see them sooner, indeed they do appear as
points of light without magnification and I couldn’t rule out plastic bags or weather balloons at this point. I
do believe that they relate to aerosols but would like better evidence definitely
JUST SAY, “GOTCHA”, PLEASE
It’s ok, we know what we know.. those are not contrails .. dear Unc.. them’s Chemtrails !
Addie.
A holding pattern?? Why?? no planes in sky for all summer months and all a sudden, whoa and behold— 15 planes in sky in old countryside in KY???
Bullshit from the barefoot country girl that had no black soot from the grass till the very day the first spray started–I walk to my garden every day barefoot.
response—I am 58 years old–been laying beside pool for about 35 years–even had one in my old house from 94 – 07–stupid–I lived looking at the skies 4 months of the year–
Addie–trust me, this is new–the chemtrails just started and they are dangerous.
And, Addie, interesting about the contrail/chemtrail difference–sprayings Friday, Sunday, and Monday>?????Guess what??
We never see planes in this area except going to the Army base and even then one a month.
But strangely enough, the sky Sunday covered with chemtrails was contrasted nicely with a jet flying through the chemtrails leaving, yes,……………………………………………. a true contrail that disappeared in 45-60 seconds.
Ta-Da, you POS debunker commie.
As to what to do? Talk to as many people as you can.. even when you are out and about.. call it to the attention of strangers.
I tried that with 2 of my neighbors–I’m sure steer clear of the looney is being spoken right now–remember, I am more educated than the average neighbor–I am the question asker, the thinker, the why???
It isn’t accepted in some circles–accept it and continue to debunk.
God help this world.
If you begin having the metal fiber problems, I have a parasite fighter I take for animals–just started yesterday. Found it on one of the propaganda websites about chemtrails that do not exist. (sarcasm here)
A lady at a health food store tried everything , the only thing that helped her was this, but when the government discovers this, it will be discintinued, ya think?
Judy, I think you’ve struck at the core of the problem here. You don’t remember seeing something unless you pay attention to it. The whole “chemtrail” thing started about ten years ago, but everyone noticed it at different times. You say only a year? So if you did not notice it until one year ago, even though it’s been going on for ten, then why would you have noticed it before?
Now you’re thinking Addie–keep a journal–started one on my computer to record any and all pertinent data–especially since the 3 days of spraying last week to repair the hole in the atmosphere in our rural area with maybe one plane a month here.
Anyone out there–have you had black soot from the grass get on your feet–only question hasn’t been answered for me–and don’t say industrial –I moved from industrial to country last year and the first time it happeded was the first day of spraying here. Too much proof there.
And I will suggest that the contention that a plane flies through different blah, blah, blah,,, to make disconnected contrails is BS, because in my 58 years of sky watching at pools for 35 years, never have I ever seen one do that.
Only jets spraying chemtrails did that –they did it Friday, Sunday ,and not Monday–the sky was so covered with their clouds, couldn’t see.
still love the US, but.. what I escaped.. is following me, I feel it, and know it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, crying by what Addie wrote,
I’m okay now. but I read many accounts that said all countries are participating that have resources(money??) except China–
this has me wondering, if it’s mind control, okay, if it’s pop. control, why not China???
Regardless, if it’s destroying our pop., hey, winds carry this all around, and since the earth is continuously rotating??? Aren’t we reaching all segments of the world??
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A pilot of a friend said very quietly as an afterthought,
Until you get a plane,
a camera crew,
a pilot, a lab crew on the ground,
a collection of material from your plane accumulated from the following, filming plane spraying,
you have no case.
He flies for one of the commercial airlines/
————————————————————-
I just talked to my attorney-buddy Rick, we are tossing a Class action lawsuit around, so far only in planning stages.. hmm, that would get interesting !
Be careful, not joking here.
If many witnesses against Bill and Hillary can commit suicide with 5 bullets to the head and no one notice, we won’t be missed.
Understand???
————————————————————-
for my post, but uni is obviously in the loop, so it is pointless to argue.
And he has a bunker underground?? Provided by our millions the government stole form us?? ………Bailout..
25% missing from DOD??…..not accountalble???
European banks redneck traders losing billions????biggest myth of all!!!!!!!!!!
Put it together, folks.
We don’t know what those pilots were told?? Families threatened?? I know where your children attend school?/ I know where your wife shops?? Not so farfetched, is it??
All this talk makes me wonder about the tanker contract dispute when it was given to a European company instead of our Boeing?? Aren’t you just a little suspicious about the real story??? Renegotiating now with the kick-ass letters from American citizens…………hmmmmmm..tankers?? to refuel our jets??hmmmmm….
Warrior says:I understand that you are eliminating my comments from your blog which only confirms my opinion of you…………………
I thought I was the only one with statements of rebuttal that disappeared–I came
here to see and it is gone thanks, for informing me Warrior. Can’t handle the observations of this old Kentucky lady??? Got too close to disproving the explanations??? —
SR1419—uh-oh, watch out people, here’s another plant to boost the ‘uni’ here.
From Marcah-He states that HF is not only super toxic but it is also destroying our ozone layer.?????????
I read that the effort to replenish the ozone damage has backfired–if that is what this is???——–that the shield around the earth that is over us is actually not allowing our heat from the earth to escape and causing major repercussions–just an article and another point of view.
Marcah says:I think these operations have been recently geared with condensation simulators in the motors, to appear as legitimate CONTRAILS!!!!!
Thanks —I’ll watch for that.
I’ve cut and pasted (and saved )my comments since the previous valid points were extremely critical in proving this uni wrong and they disappeared and weren’t posted.
I now have evidence of the date and content of my posts from today.
Suggest everyone do the same if your posts are missing.
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I have noticed these sprayings for years and I’m not commenting to you for you are not comprehending my message as I’m aware you have lots to debunk.
People–I have noticed these for years, I laid on my back for ages, I owned a pool, and before that I visited for years a pool–thought the planes were practicing for a flight school, air shows, But, if this was practice, wait, why no chemtrails at the air shows–don’t fall for anyone’s bS.
I go to all air shows in smyrna and murfresboro and missed the one In ky. with the accident/death of the pilot. No chemtrails so no practice over my home for ten years or less.
But, if this was practice, wait, why no chemtrails at the air shows–don’t fall for his bS.
I’ve questioned for years why they fly in criss-cross which I call a pie crust layer –that’s what they are–people jets do not fly in those patterns.
They do not turn around in a rural sky and go the opposite direction, especially when no jet has crossed our sky for weeks and voila, 15 pattterns??Oh puhleeze.
————————————————————-
People–I’d like to inform you that there is evidence they spray at night.
At exactly 3:00 a.m. on the second day of spray here, I saw the layered spray of billowy, white clouds against the full moon. Since the other sky was clear, I’m
not sure if that wasn’t left from the daily spray, for the spray was only over the western sky and we do turn that direction as we revolve.
Just watch the night skies, I began watching last week when I read of this.
LOL–Love to all and may God have mercy on us all.
I guess the debunker of ***on 17 Oct 2008 at 12:25 pm *** had other appointments or couldn’t handle my points of interest.
Or is he confused to my cut and paste techniques and can’t discern if it’s my statement or others??
————————————————————-
Judy-
you said:
Do you really believe there were no planes in the sky above all summer long?? Surely, you are not that…er..naive…??
Are you aware that there are literally thousands of planes in the sky at any given moment in the US??
You are in Kentucky…right smack dab in the middle of the eastern flyway…where do those 100s of planes that traverse the eastern corridor daily…on their way from NY, Boston, Montreal, Providence etc…. to Atlanta, Miami, Tampa etc…go?? Do they veer around Kentucky????
Please have a clue.
Learn about atmospheric processes and how and why some days there are contrails and some days there are not. Learn about how sometimes contrails persist and sometimes they do not. Learn about how 2 planes can fly through the same space and one leave a contrail and the other will not.
Clearly ignorance is not bliss.
See, here’s where you fail—you can fight L.A. people with this argument —–side effect of air traffic—–BS
well in my sky–there are maybe one or two planes a month-I’m out all day sometimes.
15 chemtrails in one day?? for 3 days last week and not one since???
You lose that stupid rationality in my country.
HEY EVERYBODY, WE JUST GOT ON THE JET ROUTE AFTER ONE YEAR LIVING HERE –I WILL PROTEST AT THE FIRST CITY COUNCIL MEETING IF THIS HILLBILLY TOWN HAS ONE.
Now, a theory of mine–cities get more spraying because extreme traffic and population and industrial conditions continue to deplete the shield over your towns.
Country environment doesn’t need the continuous sprays. Air is cleaner and stays that way.
Let me know if rural areas are sprayed every day–mine isn’t which is why the 3 day spray was so obvious and irregular, it was instantly noticed.
http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
This is sort of what happened to my skies the third day of spraying.
Note: the first day and second day was normal spray–misty, cotton candy-like clouds–the third day was a different chemical(guessing) and caused the expansion of the mist sprayed first two days.. Make sense??
One or two planes a month? Unfortunately unless you actually live INSIDE an MOA (Military operations area), there is no region of the US that is not overflown by tens of planes every day.
You just only see them when they leave contrails, because they are very high up, and blend in with the sky.
I presume you live somewhere near Bowling Green, KY? (Airport code KBWG). Well, have a look at the air traffic overhead right now:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBWG
Click on the map with the green planes in the top right. Notice how random the planes seem? There’s really no such thing as a “jet route” in the sense of a narrow freeway that you are forced to fly along. While there are “Victor Airways”, they are TEN MILES WIDE, and you don’t even have to fly along them, many jets don’t (especially private Jets). They just fly the shortest distance between two points, avoiding other planes, to get there as quick as possible.
So I think it’s pretty clear that you’ve just not noticed contrails before – despite your 35 years of pool experience.
If you think these people are so stupid, and you must, to think that only 3 hours on Friday, and 3 hours on the following Sunday and 3 hours on the following Monday conditions were just absolutely perfect for contrails, but not one hour of the other 120-130 days of the summer, you underestimate the intelligence of the citizens here.
Hey, guys out there, only 9 hours of 3,120 hours in my rural area was exactly perfect, I say ‘EXACTLY PERFECT’ conditions for contrails.
If you’re pitching a sunshield theory please take a look at some of my posts
Most theories on developing sunshields I’ve covered. Ideally they would put particles much higher up because they would stay up for 1-2 years instead of hours to days. However, since it takes very specialized aircraft to get there it’s cost-prohibitive. The best (and most expensive) theory involves placing a shield in a stable orbit between the earth and the sun, filtering roughly 3% of the sunlight reaching earth. On the other hand, 75% of the planet is covered with water. Water actually radiates more than it’s share of IR energy into the atmosphere (compared to average land) and makes for a better target for producing clouds for some other reasons as well. However, that too can get expensive and the primary proposals I’ve seen don’t involve aircraft over the water. One model suggests and increase of 4% of cloud cover over the ocean(s if you prefer to separate them despite no real boundary) would counter greenhouse emmissions for the next 50 years at their current increasing rate. The easiest way to do that, from what I’ve read, is to use watercraft designed to burn specific sulfur compounds. There’s a need for specially designed vessels because if you use sulfur enriched coal you end up raining sulfuric acid and the ocean is acidifying fast enough (plus potential for landfall, actually landfall is ideal in one model.) Now, clouds have two effects over land. During the day they can act as a coolant by reflecting sunlight back into space before it converts into heat, they also act as a heater at night and sometimes during the day depending on factors not completely understood (at least by me and the people who’s works I’ve read.) At night they blanket the earth and keep the heat in; a main reasons deserts can be 100F at noon and 35F at night. Anyway, cities absorb a ton of thermal energy from more sources than the sun, and cloud cover would be counter-productive after 3-4pm local time. I’m with you in some respect, I think they’re doing a lot of research into a solar shield but I have deep questions about the extent in which they are actually testing low level shielding. But, I wouldn’t put anything past our government… Anyway, the pollution and such in and around cities would be more likely to help a shield than to weaken it. Don’t take that as me saying they aren’t or haven’t tried it… read this 
http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/#comment-4807 and just ignore my comments about the government… there’s a long dialogue there though, so don’t just read reply 185.
Judy, that’s seems about the same amount of contrail friendly conditions we’ve seen in LA this summer. And they have all been in the last three weeks. What’s the problem? It depend on the weather.
Go to Youtube and find a whole (actually several) series on HAARP! Weapons of Weather Warfare- the earthquakes in China etc…etc…
And, I do think the “bailout” $700MILLION or didn’t it turn into $850MILLION because the Republicans walked out and demanded more $ to “save us”? or themselves!!! to pay for the DUMBS – their underground resorts/homes under “The Hills”? I know I won’t be able to afford the rent! Maybe Unicus will invite me to stay at his place when the next hurricane/earthquake/tornado or tsunami hits? Oh, yeah, and let’s not leave out the ELF mind control abilities HAARP has as well! No wonder I’m so bitchy! LOL hilarious, isn’t it? SAD.
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=e8LzF2HFmkA&feature=related
There’s an underground city not far from where I live ;-p No joke, it’s technically a storage facility but houses several government agencies including a large part of Social Security. They have a private water source, fire department, air supply, and much more… It’s nuke proof, deep deep in a mine and the entrance is well guarded besides the massive metal door ;-p Look up ‘Iron Mountain’ but you probably can’t afford the rent there either… Then again it might be the place you’re talking about… I think the bailout is still at $750B… ELF is old ;-p Look at ULF
But, as someone mentioned somewhere, HAARP calls for it’s atmospheric content to be much, much higher up than clouds or contrails. So, while HAARP could be real (by that I mean active), it probably has nothing to do with chemtrails. But who knows, maybe they modified it?…
Interesting observation, I think, and I would like feedback on this please.
Since about 3 days, California ” Blue and Gold ” is back in all her Glory.. NO CHEMTRAILS at all.
Could it be, ” they ” won’t do it just be4 the election? So, as to not upset us?
Am sure.. it will start up again full blast on Nov 5th, 1 minute after 12 AM ;o( Please Judy.. or any of you, gimme feedback !
Toni, I know all about those Underground facilities !
One in Montana.. where and old Highway is closed off.. because it leads right to an entrance !
There are many others in CA, in Death Valley, and let’s not even get near Mt Shasta ! Literally, they are all over. Isen’t ” Iron Mountain” also called :” Standby or Shadow Government ?” Well must do more research. I have been to Death Valley though and Mt.Shasta, and have seen very very eerie and weird things. BUT.. lest we stray from the Chems…. back to ” them…”
Judy, what’s that stuff you are taking from the healthfoodstore?
I want to get some.. would u tell me please?
Wow.. my 3. comment today, got to stop now, or Uni will delete me.. will you Uni ? Ah, I so enjoyed these 3 days we had.. not a cloud or chem in the skies.. so gorgeous, I walked and thanked the Lord for that Beauty !
Iron Mountain is essentially the primary backup facility for the US Govt. It’s the most secure location acknowledged to exist on the planet. If there was an attack/invasion a few select detonations would secure the facilities for months or years. But it also holds undisclosed contents from private investors. Relating to chemtrails though, it could be where the low flying tanker/cargo jets are coming from and/or going to that I see from time to time… but I’m not aware of any airports in that area which could support large jets.
Uncinus-I’ve only recently become curious about this interest in “Con/Chemtrails”. EVERYONE who researches this issue WANTS to debunk it. It is a much more comfortable posture. Can you provide me links showing images of these same types of trails and cloud formation prior to say..the 90’s, on the Oregon Coast. I’m not denying they exist, but since you seem SO dedicated to debunking this, I suppose you will provide them for me. I originally came to this site WANTING to debunk chemtrails, but honestly Uncinus, the exact opposite has happened and I suppose most other visitors to this site have experienced a similar effect. So therefore the purpose of your site seems to be failing. I’ve found the comments and links provided by the advocates of chemtrails to be more independent and compelling than the Nasa Government sponsored links you provide, as these are the very type of institution suspected of complicity in this type of operation.
Admittedly, some of your arguments are strong, but the sum total of convincing arguments for chemtrails exceeds the amount of points you have seem to have made. This site and it’s responses have neither proved, or disproved the chemtrail theory to me specifically, but I am moving more and more into the corner of the very people you wish to debunk, BECAUSE of this site, not despite yet. You may want to consider closing this site, ..it’s not working. It’s like trying to lose weight by starting a Twinkie diet, you will not only NOT lose weight, but the opposite will occur. This site is like a Twinkie diet. Also,..If I ever am able to be convinced these chemtrails are a normal occurence,..then I would be very glad, and wouldn’t have to waste my time searching for the truth. It would have NO relevance to my life whether or not some random stranger still believed in chemtrails.
Uncinus you MUST spend an enormous amount of time, debunking a myth that has NO relevance to your life…Why?…What do you benefit from all this? If you enjoy debunking conspiracies, do you have other sites debunking other conspiracies? If someone believes in aliens, and you don’t, would you actually dedicate a portion of your life to convince them otherwise? The answer is simple..No. I don’t mind if people believe in harmless fantasies. Since this seems to be your position, why do you?…Your EXTREME dedication debunking what you consider to be a myth, or misinformation, seems highly unusual, to the point where it is causing visitors of this site to suspect YOU might be complicit, and not just unusual or ignorant…Sorry Uncinus, but this seems to be the prevailing sentiment of your responders, surely you realize this.
Jakeability, I might as well ask you to provide me with pre-1990 pictures of traffic lights in Oregon, and then should you fail to find any, take this as proof that traffic lights only came to Oregon in 1990.
Flickr only has 25 photos flagged as “Oregon Coast” taken between 1980 and 1990:
http://flickr.com/search/?q=oregon+coast&d=taken-19800101-19890101&ct=0
None of them had contrails, but with a little digging I found this from 1984
http://flickr.com/photos/hershman/792193254/in/set-72157600330928237/
The fact is though, that there were far few contrails in the 1980s compared to today, and there were a lot fewer photos taken.
Contrails obviously did exist though, have a look at these photos:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/
Including this one from Oregon, 1984
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12926710@N00/409570697/
I’m glad you are taking the time to consider the evidence. And I don’t really spend that much time here, no more than most people spend watching the television.
I think the average American spends 4-5 hours watching television per day, so if you spend an equal amount of time debunking a myth, that is pretty significant…I’m just having trouble understanding your motive and commitment to this topic. I try to put myself in a similar situation and imagine how I may act. If my friend believes in bigfoot, and I don’t,…I can’t imagine spending even 1-2 hours per day trying to persuade him and others from believing in this supposed myth. How would that benefit me? How does this benefit you? And no, not everything a person does has to benefit themselves. Donating to charities for example does not benefit me, but feeds a hungry person perhaps. Your work benefits whom? I realize that some of the believers in chemtrails and their intent sometimes seem a bit excessive. Those excesses come from the reality of the severity of corrupt governments and it’s supportive institutions. What is your opinion on some of the admitted and unadmitted travesties intentionally perpetrated against innocent civilians? You must be aware of many of these programs. Just for an easy example, why increase the amount of flouride in drinking water when it is obviously unnecessary? When you become aware of the fact that there are programs designed to increase mortality, in an effort to reduce population, you examine your environment a little closer. Do you honestly believe the US government’s interests are the same as the average citizen? Before people understood the concept of gravity, it was impossible to imagine our planet being round. In order to comprehend this fact, understanding gravity was a requirement. If you believe the government is acting in our best interest, you can’t even comprehend the possibility that this type of activity is going on…And as far as your reference to traffic lights, if you ask everyone you know if traffic lights existed pre 1990, what percent would answer “duh, obviously”. However, if you point out these chem/contrails as they exist today, and ask those same friends, did this exist pre 1990, what do you suppose their response will be?..hmmm.
I think you are taking this a bit too serious. This is just a blog on a topic I find interesting. I also enjoy the discussions, and the chance to exercise my science muscle occasionally. Lots of people spend time on things that interest them. That’s why I gave the TV example. You know some people watch General Hospital, that’s on five hours a week, so they are devoting all that time to watch a soap? People have hobbies you know.
Flouride I have no real opinion on. I’ve heard of the opposition to fluoridation, but I’ve not seen any good evidence that it’s a significant health problem. I certainly don’t think it’s designed to increase mortality.
You’ve got to ask: if there are all these programs designed to increase mortality, then why has mortality decreased every year this century, even in older people?
I actually take other subjects of the overall implications of this being one of many tools possibly being used against civilian populations far more seriously. My research into chem/contrails at this point has been fairly limited, and I too somewhat enjoy the discussions. It would be more enjoyable from your perspective, you don’t believe anything like this can happen in “our” country. The first group to use flouride in water was when Hitler used it in the concentration camps. Why is there thimerasol in vaccines? Why is aspartame in children’s Kool Aid. These ingredients are unnecessary. If your roommate has admitted to have stolen from you over and over, every time money comes up missing, who do you suspect? If it’s possible these people are spraying aerosols, for whatever reason,considering their behavior in the past, how can you not expect skepticism? As far as the mortality rate declining, consider the source of the study. The same government sources consistently and blatantly skew,change,omit,distort numbers to improve economic data in relation to inflation and un/employment. EVERYONE accepts this deliberate deception as fact. The sources you have probably read referring to mortality have been misrepresented by omitting infant deaths gradually from the statistic. For example, my greatgrandmother lived into her 90’s, my grandmother is 86 and very healthy. Yet more and more, 50 year old men are dying from heart failure, 40 year old women from cancer. The cancer rate among men in the US in now 1 in 2 as reported by TIME magazine. Diabetes, autism, AIDS, when you realize that militarism, murder, abortion, starvation, and all forms of increasing forms of cancer are exploding, how can you conclude that mortality has decreased? I suspect your information has been corrupted and manipulated by people with trillions, of trillions of motives. What motive do people who warn others about these possible programs have? anxiety?…Uncinus, really,..I’m not really all that religous, but I do believe in good and evil. Your idea of evil seems to be limited to single individuals, and government corruption limited to Watergate. What happens when evil comes together, covertly, takes over governments [as was the case in the US when in 1913, the federal reserve act was signed, and these types of programs began] and decieves and manipulates the poplulation into believing nonsense like flouridation is meant to protect our teeth!? The only possible way to regain control of our governments is through a worldwide mass awakening, I can’t save myself, the only way to succeed is for us ALL to stand up together against these evil institutions. If these allegations are true, then time is not on our side, hence the seriousness.
Jakeability, as fascinating as your comments are, I’m afraid they are veering a little bit off the topic of contrails. I understand you are trying to say something along the lines of “it’s possible they could be poisoning us with contrails, based on their track record”. But given that the interpretations of who “they” are, and what their track record is, I’d prefer to focus on actual evidence of these trails being anything unusual.
So, let’s accept without comment your premise that some powerful group is attempting to reduce the population by various means.
Then, what evidence do you have that contrails are part of this?
At this moment, I don’t have “conclusive” evidence that chem/contrails are part of this, this is merely my suspicion. I came to this site because you have taken on the responsibility of proving that they are not part of this. It should be earsier to disprove a covert program than to prove one, you understand this. I’m not trying to convince you, I came here so you could convince me. I hope you are right. My research will continue on this subject,..thanks for your interest.
Actually, I’m not really interested in addressing if “chem/contrails are part of this”. That’s really beside the point. What I’m addressing here is that what some people say are “chemtrails” are actually indistinguishable from contrails.
If you were only addressing this issue, you could write a statement or thesis, you actively seek conversion. The straw man you constantly set up is asking for silver bullet-smoking gun evidence of a possible COVERT operation. Do you honestly believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assasin of JFK? If not, what evidence do you have? The whole point of a covert operation is to leave very little, or preferably NO hard evidence, correct? And so when someone suspects this type of activity,….you require the very evidence the program was designed to prevent?
If you are married or have children, do you love them? If so, what evidence do you have of this love?..The fact is sometimes the only and often best evidence is observing behavior and looking closely at what they are saying. A father proves his love for his children by providing for them, comforting them, encouraging them, answering their questions honestly etc…When weather modification laws have been passed, unauthorized testing occuring, horrific various potential programs openly discussed, carbon taxes being suggested and when you ask questions of our supposed representatives about these topics,…you never get a full open discussion, but rather deflection and/or ridicule….This seems like VERY suspicious behavior.
You really seem to enjoy science, perhaps you should diversify and apply some of your ambition and intelligence into studying the history of government, and it’s current nature. I will continue to look at your points on this specific issue through the lens of science, with the presumption that this is entirely weather related while still maintaining a sense of skepticism..Hopefully you can too.
So, it seems like you are basically admitting that there is no evidence that suggests that chemtrails are anything other than contrails?
I’m not asking for silver bullet evidence, I’m asking for ANY evidence.
And, you might want to scroll back up to the top of this page, and read the article there. That’s evidence.
Any evidence? OK, how about the fact that apparently many, many people are suspiscous, and being more observant…has this always been the case?. And no, I hadn’t heard about them on the radio. What about the supposed reports of pilots, who have supposedly admitted to this activity ‘off the record’. What are the purposes of the weather modification laws, these questions have been asked of our elected ‘democratic’ representatives, without response.These reports and testimonials in you opinion are evidence of what,..hysteria? You assert that convieniently, this has always occured, just nobody noticed? If this is your position, can you think of a single other imagined harmless misconception similar to this? Are people somewhere thinking the moon is shrinking, and they just hadn’t noticed?..of course not. Chances are, if you hadn’t noticed it before, that’s because it wasn’t happening. For example, in the last year I started noticing my children seem to be getting vaccine after vaccine. I don’t remember having had so many shots when I was a kid? Turns out, in the 80’s the recommended vaccine program included about 10 vaccines, but was increased to about 36. Now, did the dosage dramatically increase, or did it just “seem” to have dramatically increased because I decided to take a second look. With vaccines, with the increase in dosage, we have seen a correlating increase in multiple, seperate and sometimes new conditions. So, if as you admit that there is an increase in the amount of chem/contrails, obviously people are going to look for an increase in negative, correlating effects of this occurence ….If you don’t require smoking gun evidence, what evidence would be sufficient?…As I have said, I have only recently began researching this topic, I haven’t reached a defenite conclusion yet,as you have.
A good example of a similar occurrence is the Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic:
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5136
Compare that with the early history of Chemtrails:
http://contrailscience.com/a-brief-history-of-chemtrails/
Interest in contrails increased after the Art Bell show, and spread on the internet. What might have been another brief “Windshield Pitting”, took root on the mailing lists and message boards that did not exist back in the 1950’s
Of course this does not explain people noticing contrails before they have heard of the chemtrail theory. But that’s been going on for decades as well. See this newspaper clipping from 1950:
http://contrailscience.com/images/L/1950+waterloo+courier.jpg
Sound familiar? There’s more here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-confusion-is-nothing-new/
Let me ask you a question, Jakeability, when did you first notice “chemtrails”?
Uncinus-in a previous comment you reference comparing apples to oranges, and in a follow up comment you do just that. Maybe something like do as I say, not as I do. The winshield pitting was a very interesting story, and a good example of public hysteria regarding conditions that had already pre existed. However, from the story itself, this supposed windshield pitting was open, and closed within a matter of days, and wasn’t suspected of having any specific intent. I first began to notice what “appeared” to be contrails that seemed to linger and form into cirrus looking formations about a year ago. Since then I have been more observant, and this activity “seems” to have increased. I am well aware of the notion that if you are actively looking for something, you will find it. I concede this may completely explain chem/contrails. However the opposite may also be true, as was the case with the vaccines. The reason they “seemed” to increase, was because they DID dramatically increase. Autism increases have mirrored vaccine increases.Why didn’t I notice this before? This subject too has been discussed on radio shows, is this to explain why vaccine dosage “seemed” to increase also? I didn’t merely assume these persistent contrails just began, I wouldn’t be here if that was the case. Believe it or not, I actually hope to prove this IS a normal occurence. Your interest in this particular subject is, as you said to “flex your scientific muscle” indicating you started this website with the intent to persuade others that they just simply ‘hadn’t noticed’ before. Your mind had already been made up. So, perhaps you too are guilty of shaping evidence around your particular presumption. You produced one photo clearly showing contrails prior to 1990, in the 1984 picture. Which looked EXACTLY like what I have seen recently. You use these pictures as silver bullet like evidence proving what I am seeing today has always occured. If I showed you a photo of a $20 dollar bill from say,..1914, is this evidence that the current money supply has always been at this particular level? Is inflation a radio hoax…of course not.The ENTIRE volume of photos, videos and testimonials in the past 10-12 years, you attribute entirely to radio shows and hysteria. Again, I am here to find the truth, and you are here to persuade others you already have the truth…I purport to be still learning about this topic with an open mind, so it’s ok if I make mistakes and assumptions. You’re suggesting you don’t make mistakes because you already have the answers. I hope to end up with the same conclusions you have made, I’m only suggesting you may have came to your conclusion prematurely, probably because of your apparent lack of foreknowledge of intentional human degradation programs….You can’t imagine anything like this happening here…Not here.
Now Uncinus, let me ask you a question..What is your opinion on the supposed global warming/climate change hysteria? And what affect does persistent, daily cirrus like formations have on global temperatures….With your scientific background, your answer to this question should be very interesting.
So, despite the “chemtrails” having been around since 1997, you failed to notice them until a year ago? So, why exactly to you think there were no “chemtrails” in the past? Why do you think that “chemtrails” are different to “contrails”.
You noticed your child was getting a lot more vaccines. The increase in number from 10 to 36 is about the same percentage as the increase in air traffic over the last 20 years. There ARE more contrails now. You just did not notice them until 2007.
I’m sorry, I’m a little confused. You asked for some specific evidence, so I gave it you. What exactly is the problem?
I think perhaps you are reading a little bit too much into my motives. Perhaps you could address the actual facts. My motives cannot change facts.
The global climate is a very complex system with a very large number of variables that is very difficult to model. It certainly seems plausible that increasing the amount of carbon in the air would increase the greenhouse effect, and hence raise global temperatures. Most scientists agree that it seems likely that this has happened, and will continue to happen.
Aviation induced cirrus are though to also have a net warming effect, as they trap reflected heat radiation, especially at night. Some have theorized that we could help reduce global warming by avoiding night flights, and avoiding flying at altitudes where contrails form.
You resist being clear in your responses to whether or not you believe global warming is actually occuring and the imminent danger it supposedly poses. You generalize, “It certainly seems plausible that increasing the amount of carbon in the air would increase the greenhouse effect, and hence raise global temperatures” plausible you say. You are very strong in your posture against supposed chemtrails, why so passive when referring to global warming. One of my suspiscions is this; the previous recent warming was likely due to solar flares, which accounts for the warming we’ve seen in our entire solar system. Not fossil fuels. However when this flaring subsided, an artifacial environment had to be produced to create an atmosphere that could mimmick warming. Perhaps this is the reason behind the weather modification laws we’ve seen passed. You are too “main-stream” to understand why sombody may wish to perpetrate such a hoax, so I won’t waste any time regarding intent. Because of this possiblility, I consider whether or not chem/contrails are intentionally increased to be legitimately plausible. Perhaps contrails have always existed under the right circumstances, and HAVE increased due to increased airtravel. Under these conditions, a covert program would have all the superfacial cover necessary to pull of such an operation. Cointelpro would contribute to debunk this, and even some innocent civilians would pitch in. I’m still unsure whether you represent the former or the latter.
I though I was very clear. I don’t know if the current global warming is anthropogenic, but I think it’s quite probable that it is.
Likewise, I don’t know if some contrails are actually being created deliberately, but I think it is quite likely that they are not.
But really what I discuss here are much more specific points, like “can contrails persist longer than a few minutes”, and “were there persistent contrails before 1997?” (or 2007 in your case). For those questions the answers can be much more certain, due to the vast amount of evidence.
Progress! “I don’t know if some contrails are actually being created deliberately” now our positions seem to be converging. That was the first time I recall you considering this “possible”. Not likely, but possible. I am slightly more alarmed about even the possibility because I believe other things are now going on that I never would have imagined before. Hiding in plain site. For that reason, to me, ANYTHING is possible.
Today, on the Oregon coast, I have noticed both planes that leave long persisting trails, and others that don’t, literally in the [apparent] same area, within 10-15 minutes of each other…now, why does this happen? Even if you have a legitimate reason, surely you must realize how this may cause folks to be curious.
Yes, and it’s good to be curious. Many people have in fact asked about the “two planes, one contrail” phenomenon, and I’ve answered it many times. See #9 here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/
Oregon gets a lot of flyover traffic. I presume your planes were all North-South? Check out this local air traffic map for North Bend/Coos Bay airport:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KOTH
Click on the map in the top right. You’ll see nearby planes. The first number on the second line next to each plane is the height in 100s of feet (so 380 is 38,000 feet). If this map is near you, you can use it to identify planes, and find their altitude. Different altitudes have different contrail producing characteristics. Most of the planes fly about 40 miles inland, but still quite visible from the coast.
Yes, almost all planes travel north-south. Some do appear to travel east-west, but rarely. Yesterday, there appeared to be a plane that made what looked like a spiral formation over the ocean, why might this be?….Referring back to global warming, assuming it is real, and man made. Why do these newer jet engines produce more contrails, than older ones. I suspect you’ll say these newer engines are more efficient, at least as far as their fuel comsumption is concerned. And since you agree these contrails are forming man made cirrus clouds, what do you think has a bigger impact on the climate, these clouds, or the amount of fuel conserved with these newer engines?…If global warming is anthropogenic, what accounts for the warming seen throughout our entire solar system? In other words, how can human activity on earth, account for climate changes on say..Mars?
Martians? Seriously, it’s a complex subject with few definite answers. The sunspot theory does not have many supporters (or any real evidence), and the fluctuations on Mars can be explained by small alterations in the planet’s orbit and tilt. See:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming_2.html
The spiral formation over the ocean could be a training flight, a research flight, or a military flight. Or just someone having fun. I’ve flow spiral formations over the ocean when taking flying lessons.
The more efficient an engine is, the more water it produces, as more of the fuel is burnt. But contrail formation is also related to a complex set of factors which resolve to a “Contrail Factor”, which alters the likelihood of contrail persistence. Modern engines are “high-bypass”, and have a higher contrail factor because of this. See:
http://tinyurl.com/59zj6z
I don’t know what has a bigger impact. Contrail clouds only impact the climate for the few hours they exist. Carbon emissions last much longer in the atmosphere, and the effect is felt on a much longer term basis. So it’s hard to quantify.
The 300 million tons of aviation kerosene burnt annually makes up just 3% of the world total anthropogenic combustion, and hence makes up only a thirtieth part of global warming and dimming.
In general, it is CARBON DIOXIDE that contributes to global warming and PARTICULATES and WATER that contribute to global dimming.
So there is a risk that as we clean up our combustion activities we will INTENSIFY global warming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm4QdNXhAd0
But aviation plays only a THREE PER CENT part in all of this.
And maybe this is a solution to global warming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7J8P-uXqM
Just to clarify, when I said:
I was referring to the carbon emissions from aviation alone, the 3%. I’ve seen suggestions that the benefits of eliminating contrails by flying at different altitudes would be offset by the greater carbon emissions produced by these altitude changes. But there were no figures to back that up.
Also, calculatioin of the effect of contrails on global temperature measurements seem to vary quite a lot. The early assertions of the 9/11 effect have since been greatly scaled back by other scientists.
It’s hard to experiment with the entire planet. The salt spraying ships does seem like a plausible idea though, maybe in a few decades.
There is one key factor you are unable, or unwilling to comprehend constantly. The global shadow government. This is THE most prominent factor. Most of your information on both suspected chemtrail and suspected man made global warming, comes from government, or government related studies. Do you realize our media is filtered and controlled? And have you seen any of the opposing independent studies against man made global warming? There are many…Three more questions; What is the purpose of the weather modification laws passed, and how many companies produce most of the jet fuel produced for the airline industry?…Seriously, do you believe there is a global shadow government? If not, try to prove it.
The existence or otherwise of a shadow government is entirely besides the point. Any nefarious intent behind weather modification laws if also besides the point. Even if we assume the world is being run by evil men who pass laws solely for their own benefit, then that’s still besides the point.
The point is that there is no evidence at all that the persistent trails that people keep saying are “chemtrails” are anything other than normal contrails, as have been observed for over 50 years.
Stick to the point here Jakeability; what is the evidence that the trails are not contrails? What? Even assuming everything else you believe, what’s the evidence for “chemtrails?”
I understand that this blog is specifically for “chem/contrails”, but can’t we have a little fun and endulge in the bigger picture…As far as the constant referrance to shadow governments…anyone who believes in the supposed chemtrails, are also curious about whom may be doing this. This is why this subject IS relevant. What about my other question about airliner fuel? And was that your only answer to the weather modification legislation?
I’m gald you understand I’d like to keep on the topic of trails left behind aircraft.
What was the question about fuel? I thought I’d addressed that.
What weather modification legislation specifically?
Jakeability
There are SOME.
However, the status of these thinktanks doesn’t match up in any way to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, US National Academy of Sciences, and the USCAP (for goodness’ sake!), ALL OF WHICH have said a couple of years ago now that: a) the world is DEFINITELY warming b) the warming is happening as a DIRECT consequence of Mankind’s activities putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and c) action taken immediately by EVERYONE to reduce ALL CO2 EMISSIONS will be a lot more effective in avoiding abrupt climate change NOW than desperate (and maybe inadequate) remedial action taken later.
Bearing in mind Man’s intrinsic and historic inability to acknowledge subtle and stealthy increases in THREAT, and our world’s huge store of invisible thresholds and “tipping points”, and massive inertia, Global Warming puts “chemtrails” in the shade. (Perhaps you should pack this in, Uncinus! – only joking!)
What matter that the “NWO” rules the world, if the sea level has risen ten metres, no ships can sail, no aircraft fly, tornadoes are daily events and hurricanes weekly events, crops no longer grow, the Amazon burns down, and then ten thousand billion tons of methane (your ULTIMATE global warmer) is released from the oceans?
Are you unaware of the weather modification laws? Oregon has many. And as far as the jet fuel question. How many companies produce most of the jet fuel for the airline industry? This question is important, because any time you have consolidation, or centralization of any particular resourse, problems ALWAYS follow. Look at our news media, or the oil companies….VERY corrupt. Why? Lack of competition. So if three or four different companies [which have interlocking boards and directors] produce most or all of the jet fuel, this would be a problem when you theorize about additives, chemical or otherwise. And again, have you seen any of the opposing theories to “man made” global warming besides the sun spot theories?….Such as ‘The global warming swindle’?
I’m aware that there are weather modification laws. You asked what their purpose was, and I asked which one were you referring to. I’ll assume you mean Oregon Chapter 558 unless you say otherwise.
The purpose of chapter 558 is included in the law itself:
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/558.html
That seems perfectly clear – the law allows issuing of licenses for altering precipitation, and prohibits doing it without a license. So what exactly is your problem?
I still don’t understand what your question is about jet fuel. Could you just give a direct question?
And yes, I’ve seen many theories explaining global warming. But that’s not what this blog is about. It’s about trails in the sky. I’d appreciate it if you would try to stay on topic. I’m sure you are aware of many other places you can go to discuss global warming, so feel free to take it there – unless you want to discuss the involvement of contrails in global warming.
JazzRoz-leaving out the “NWO” of the equation is THE biggest factor, thus your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. All the sources you noted, were government funded studies. And so if the government is controlled by the very people suspected of dreaming up this hoax, how credible are they? What will global carbon taxes do to developing third world countries, let alone ours and other industrialized nations? It will destroy them, perpetuating their circumstances. Nobody disagrees we experienced a brief, but definite warming period. It is the cause that is being discussed. You suppose it is man made, I disagree. This IS an open question among non-govermental scientists and institutions. By believing these government studies, you are promoting nationalism, not patriotism. Our government is owned by a global shadow government. They are intentionally inflating our economy [as evidenced by the recent banker takeover bill known as the bailout] for the pupose of deflation. Along with carbon taxes, forcing people to accept a lower and lower living standard, eliminating third world populations, all along increasing consolidation and centralization so that when the population wakes up and realizes they’ve been scammed, we won’t have the resources to take our planet back…..America’s founders said to love our country always, and our government when it deserves it. Our government hasn’t earned it in a LONG time.By questioning our government you are being patriotic.
Please try to stay on topic if you want to post here. Jake, if you want to argue politics with Jazzroc, you can do it on his blog:
http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/
Any more non-contrail related discussion is subject to moderation.
Uncinus-when I attempt to get your theories on global warming [or is it climate change this week?] it IS related to chem/contrails. Just as your religion is relevant as to your ideas of the after life, and since the global warming movement is becoming a religous institution,.. whether or not you believe global warming is MAN MADE affects your ability to consider other possibilities concerning the intent of creating man made clouds….And my question about jet fuel was VERY specific, in fact I’ve only scrolled up here and copied the exact text of which you are perfectly capable;
“how many companies produce most of the jet fuel produced for the airline industry?…”
Seems fairly clear to me?..The reason I ask is because the fact that there are 4-5 major organizations who create, and own almost all the media in this country, allows them the ability to control content. Furthermore, there are 4-5 major organizations who produce almost all of the oil in the world, thereby allowing them to manipulate and detirmine price…If there are only a couple organizations who produce almost all of the jet fuel for the airline industry, they can determine content, which is relevant to the production and formation of chem/contrails.
I’d assumed this was a rhetorical question, since you supplied the answer yourself. 4-5 sounds a bit low, but I’m willing to accept that if we can get contrails back into the discussion.
Are you suggesting that it’s a change in the composition of jet fuel that is responsible for the increase in clouds cover caused by contrails?
And what’s your problem with the weather laws?
I think it is DEFINITELY possible there has been a change in the composition of jet fuel…And I was only guessing there MAY be only a few companies providing the fuel, your answer, or lack of, confirmed what I had suspected..Hmmm..coincidence I guess.As far as the weather modification laws are concerned. The people of this country are not aware of these laws, or at least I certainly wasn’t. And so when you start noticing persistent chem/contrails in the sky, and follow that up with research, it seems highly coincidental there have been laws passed allowing weather modification. You would propose that I am a “conspiracy theorist”, while I consider you a “coincidence theorist”……Has any organization been publicly granted licenses for this type of “work”?….Oh and, I will try to keep this more on the chem/contrail discussion, thanks for the link to JazzRoc,…and just out of curiosity, is he a regular contributor to this blog also?
The weather laws were not passed to allow weather modification. They were passed to RESTRICT weather modification. Before there was a law, then anyone could try to make it rain more. After the law, you now need a license. Cloud seeding weather control had been going on for sixty years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding#History
In fact, all weather modification legislation is in place to restrict and regulate weather modification. So how is this at all suspicious.
You ask:
Well, yes, obviously all the cloud seeders in Oregon are licensed. You know that this act was passed in 1953, right? And there was a federal weather control act, also in 1953:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0477/55/7/pdf/i1520-0477-55-7-755.pdf
Jakeability
As far as I can recall (from my petrochemical experience), any particular fuel specification is just that – a specification – or recipe – which is quite open to public view.
Any local petro site (whether independent or part of some large corporation) is equipped to make up that specification from its discrete components and convey it to the local airfield that requires it, thus minimizing shipping costs. It is quite normal for competitors to supply each other.
I cannot see where your “conspiracy” idea can function within this. It just isn’t the way things work. WIKI specifies JP-8 fuel quite closely if you are curious.
You are welcome to visit my blog, but give me a week as I must rearrange it right now, partly to make it more comment-friendly. Then you can fire away…
Uncinus needs no help from me to manage this excellent site. Quite the reverse…
Uncinus-the more I look over your VAST amounts of information, and from your very prompt responses, I’m beginning again to wonder if this is your full time job,..and not just a time passing hobby for you. I am a 29 yr old dairy farm manager from Oregon, just trying to raise my four kids. I know alot of the topics I write about are very inconcievable,..I never would have believed any of this a year ago, and it is still hard to comprehend all of the ‘ins and outs’…It it similar to swimming, a person can sit down with you for hours, even days trying to explain to you HOW to swim, but in order to truly learn how to swim, you have to have the courage to jump in and see if the instruction worked for you. But you won’t know unless YOU decide to jump in….Understanding that there IS a shadow government has to come from within, it doesn’t require courage, but only curiosity. Take one afternoon and spend a few hours on this subject….
I incorrectly referred to Oregon’s weather modification laws, I meant to refer to the Senate bill 1807. Another coincidence?
Uncinus, seriously, whom do you suspect people think might be responsible for these supposed chemtrails. Even you, when you said; ” I don’t know if some contrails are actually being created deliberately, but I think it is quite likely that they are not.”
Even you consider it a possibility. So in your own mind, say, hypothetically, if this IS going on, who would benefit from this?
Maybe this is the JP-8 fuel JazzRoc was referring to;
http://tih.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/23/10/617
Explain how this story is wrong..it’s very interesting.
http://www.willthomas.net/chemtrails/Articles/Counting_Contrails.htm
I really don’t understand what your problem is with weather modification legislation. Such legislation has been in the works since 1953, and was enacted in 1958 with Public Law 85-510, see:
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0477/55/7/pdf/i1520-0477-55-7-755.pdf
What exactly do you find suspicious?
Perhaps you could quote a piece or two of it that you feel is especially correct, so I can address the most important parts of what is a long and detailed article that covers several points.
Uncinus-you are very intelligent…I am not going to point out the parts I feel are especially correct. Our conversation is not moving forward. As I noted before, flat earthers couldn’t imagine our planet being spherical without understanding the concept of gravity…it was impossible. The world we’re living in HAS been pulled over our eyes to prevent us from seeing the truth….Like the flat earthers, you are leaving THE most important factor out of your calculation. Without this variable, answers are much easier. Your caclulations and assertions as they relate to chem/contrails are 100% correct, and yet still imcomplete.
Heres how you see the problem: 8+8=16 which is correct as the problem was given to you. But in reality, parts of the equation are different, and have been left out intentionally.
Heres how I see the problem: 8x+8y=72….then I had to determine the values of x and y. Without these hidden factors, your answer is very different thus you underestimate the problem. I too am still trying to determine these variables, along the way I have failed many times, and my conclusions evolve constantly. You have helped me with this process. Thank you…You however will go about your life, carefree, never fully understanding the situation we’re in until it’s too late. Hopefully, one day, when you truly regain your curiosity, you will check on some of these seeds I’ve tried to plant in your imagination. Until then I will continue my work, alerting my fellow man to the reality of the world we’re REALLY living in..
Thanks again Uncinus for your time.
With respect Jakeability, I’ve been more that willing to accept for the sake of argument that there is a shadow government controlling the world, doping the Jet Fuel, and censoring the media. I’d not disputed any of that.
However, what I’ve done is to ask you for evidence that “chemtrails” are anything other than persistent contrails. I really don’t think you came up with anything.
Sure, go ahead and believe in the shadow government. But why believe in chemtrails specifically?
I haven’t suggested you’ve disputed the shadow government, but your inability to accept this variable is the reason for your incomplete conclusions. Flat earthers couldn’t merely accept the notion of gravity without first understanding gravity thereby allowing them to factor this in PROPERLY…your position is basically this..”ok so maybe there is a shadow government, so what, show me proof chemtrails are any different from contrails” as if there would be direct PUBLIC evidence I could put in your hands to definitively prove chemtrails. Surely you don’t think Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of JFK? And if not, could you hand me a sheet of paper proving other shooters were involved?…The answer is no, some truths have never been documented, and therefore the truth only exist in the minds of the guilty. Do you agree some things are true, and unprovable at the same time?
I think additives have been put into jet fuel, to make contrails MORE persistent than normal, slightly increasing and perpetuating supposed global warming, but incremental enough as to encourage people like you to persuade people this has always been the case. You are correct, these are typical contrails, but probably with aeresols added, to increase the possibility and formation of cirrus-like man made clouds, maybe to promote droughts and other symptoms in order to maintain the grand hoax of “MAN MADE global warming”……Then, you go on to request documented proof……of which probably does not exist. You can’t just say a shadow government exists, you have to understand it’s implications. You haven’t done this, you may even be incapable. Some things exist that are definitely unproveable. Examples of this are all around us.
I don’t want documented proof. What I would like is for you to explain why you believe this about contrails.
It seems you accept that regular contrails can persist and spread out. But then you say that the increase in the number of persistent contrails is the result of fuel additives. But you’d also accept the since air traffic has doubled in the last 20 years, then the number of contrails would also have doubled?
So, if the increase in contrail cover can be accounted for in the increase in the number of flights, then why exactly to you think there has also been a deliberate change in the fuel to also increase the persistence of contrails?
I’m not asking for documented proof, I’m asking why you think this.
I believe this is happening because of the sum total of possible evidence, including senate bill 1807, and the volume of testimonials from citizens AROUND THE WORLD. Do you really believe the people of Brazil are victims of a radio hoax or just hadn’t bothered to notice? You see what you don’t understand is, these people use existing conditions as cover for their operations. So to maintain plausible deniability and to implant a reasonable doubt. I have become aware of many of their other operations, so I know how they disquise their agenda. After you begin to understand how they operate, you then have to reverse engineer each scenario…So first, you notice anomalies like MORE persistent contrails which seem to form into clouds. And then you say, ‘ok, if this IS going on, what should I expect to see under the surface’ so you look deeper, and you find many other people scratchin their heads, civilians, scientists, doctors. You find words like ‘chemtrails’ in federal legislation. Reported illnesses, reported defectors’ addmissions, reported civilian looking military aircraft, reported technology such as HAARP, reported material found on cars and sidewalks, reported changes in fuel composition and reported regular chem/contrail activity in the days following 9/11 when commercial air traffic was grounded, [with the exception of the BinLaden's of course]. Now, are all of these things true,…probably not, but most probably are. I concede commercial air travel has increased dramatically, and that many of these reported sicknesses are self induced or not related, and that what is being seen are contrails SIMILAR to the ones that had always naturally occured under the right cicumstances. The reason they are now being referred to as chemtrails is because additives HAVE been created specifically for jet fuel to intentionally transform normal short lived contrails, into persistent, cloud forming hydro seekers, with a side effect of viral fungal infections which helps contribute to their depopulation operations. The global warming hoax will become increasingly dependent on this chem/contrail deployment, as we move into a cooling period. It’s not that I WANT to believe this, obviously, but you ask why I believe this……I believe this because I realize this shadow government disrespects the intellect of the people of this world, I’ve seen how they have intentionally brutalized men, women, and children. I’ve seen how they have created programs with the intent of increasing mortality, programs designed to perpetuate famine and sickness, and demolish economies. They use our trust and ignorance against us. They instigate wars and promote militarism. Some members of these institutions have even written books, suggesting scenarios which then occur….Can ALL of these things be coincidences?
That things are not coincidences is not indication of some particular truth.
It’s not a coincidence that Kucinich’s bill metion Chemtrails, but what does that actually mean?
http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and-hr-2977/
Now, again I note that you agree that normal contrails will have increased, but then you say
Now why is that volume of testimony not explained by the increase in air travel? (and where are these reports from Brazil?)
You go on to say:
Okay, I’ll go out on a limb here, and let’s say I accept for the sake of argument that jet fuel additives are making contrails more persistent, then, given that, how exactly do you know that there are “viral fungal infections which helps contribute to their depopulation operations.“?
I meant to emphasize the word ‘reported’. I conceded many of the cases are self induced or not related. Do you deny jet fuel, specifically JP-8, can have negative impacts on a persons’ health? Can you confirm that unknown chemical additives [for the sake of argument:) ] might pose health risks? If people are reporting this, and some doctors are confirming this, how can you rationalize ALL of this? Radio Shows?
Also, I had previously viewed your material on the substance and intent of the Kucinich bill, also coincidences I suppose. And the referrence to Brazil, far removed from American radio, was rhetorical “for the sake of argument”.
Planes don’t fly along spraying out JP-8, they burn it and spray out (mostly) carbon dioxide and water.
What doctors are reporting a correlation between contrails and illness?
There’s been solid contrails for two days over LA, I feel just fine.
It’s obviously not just radio shows. The internet is the prime mover in the dissemination of the chemtrail idea.
Jakeability
This is what you posted AFTER I posted THIS:
Now WHY would you do that?
Jakeability, you’re in such a mess, with your:
You believe this stuff because no-one has told you anything about CONFIRMATION BIAS, the understanding of which is a prerequisite of CRITICAL THINKING. In essence, you must CLEAR yourself of all your hidden assumptions, and DELAY forming your conclusions until ALL THE EVIDENCE IS IN.
This you patently haven’t done. I recommend you watch wonderingmind42’s vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A58X73GnzE (and also possibly the rest of them), giving you the opportunity to clear your WANDERING mind.
You will find yourself more open to reason, and more able to take part in discussions without ignoring other people’s points.
Your fine, I’m fine….therefore it must not be happening. So even though the autism rate is 1 in 166, I suppose for 165 of those children, autism is a myth..Once in awhile my children bring home the flu, sometimes I catch it, usually I don’t….Now just because I didn’t catch the bug, does that mean the flu is a hoax?…of course not. Another straw man argument….As far as the doctors diagnosing ‘chemtrail illnesses’, I believe I read this story from YOUR site, maybe not, I will check later when I have more time.
Sure, many diseases have increased. But why are you connecting this to contrails? Why not pesticides, or food additives, or industrial pollution, or sunspots, or televisions, or the internet, or cell phones … or any of the hundreds or other variables that have changed in the last 20 years?
Why pick contrails? What evidence is there that links contrails, specifically, to any increase in disease.
JazzRoc-The video you directed me to was very interesting. Especially the ‘confirmation bias’ approach, which I agree with 100%. You’ve used this theory to point fingers, when perhaps you should have looked into a mirror. My previous assumptions were this; I believed in global warming vehemently, for almost 10 years. I thought our country was in a small rut politically, thanks to republican policies. I thought Barack Obama was going to change the world! I cut back on driving, turned off lights as much as I could, shopped at Saturday market, and was a true spokesperson for the need to cut back on our living standard under the valiant effort to ‘Save the World’. I’ve been in fierce debates with friends and family who didn’t accept global warming as fact. I never believed chem/contrails, dangerous vaccines, or shadow governments existed. But I couldn’t understand how these conspiracy theories still had legs. My intention was to disprove these un-American claims. So I did go into this with a bias,…just not the one you suggest, but the EXACT opposite. “No way these things could be true, not in America” I thought. But to my complete shock, the evidence and science [when NOT government funded] has been overwhelming!
I suspect you have exhibited ‘confirmation bias’ in your approach to global warming. Or would you suggest you did not believe the original claims???. And as far as your extreme trust in a private institution’s public claims [or "recipes"]…..How about the examples set by such private, and federal organizations such as Phillip Morris’ honesty, how about Enron, or do you still believe the US Treasury actually “planned” on helping people with their mortgages?….Could science have predicted these fraudulant actions?…..You say the exact “recipe” has been made public, based on the examples I’ve cited, how can you be sure?
Ask yourself, can science take over government?….Or what happens when government takes over science?
You seem proficient enough in science,..you should try studying government, and how they manipulate science, and it’s followers.
Uncinus-Actually, I believe all of these things have had individual, and synergistic effects….So then why do you suspect these types of programs aren’t abolished but instead increase? Stupidity? Ignorance? Beauracracy?…..I believe there is an intent invloved.
I’m not 100% sure chemtrails effect a person’s health, but I think that it is quite likely that they do, hence the use of the term ‘reported’ in lew of ‘confirmed’.
Jakeability, the problem here is that you still have not given ANY evidence that the contrails are anything out of the ordinary.
Take the conspiracy stuff as read, for the sake of argument, then what actual evidence is there that there trails are being created deliberately?
JazzRoc-You seem to think science is the “end all be all”, as do many people who practice “Scientism”. The truth is science isn’t the reason for advanvement in humanity, science is NOTHING without TECHNOLOGY. Most of science today is the offspring of technology. And technology is the offspring of imagination. What happened to YOUR imagination???
Your arguments are circular, always leading back to “evidence”, haven’t you reiterated many times;
“I’m not asking for documented proof”
Your words…not mine.
I’m not asking for documented proof. I’m asking for evidence to support your beliefs. Two totally different things.
It seems so far that you believe the “chemtrail” theory simply because it seems like something that the powers that be would do. You admit they look like normal contrails. You admit contrails have increased in frequency with air traffic. You admit there are many causes of illnesses. And yet you still believe that someone is deliberately making contrails last longer and be harmful.
Do you have ANY evidence to support this belief?
Uncinus-What would amount to evidence to you specifically?
Anything that suggests that there are some “chemtrails” that cannot be explained by regular contrails or other normal trails
Jakeability
I AM somewhat surprised by your response. So you DIDN’T mislead yourself directly by confirmation bias – I will accept.
Let me tell you that my career began in possibly the WORST possible scenario, where the administration was MORE corrupt than any administration I have ever encountered thereafter. My experience was SO bad that I quit the engineering world for a decade, being instead a bass-guitarist in a rock band, then a student designer and artist.
Nevertheless, I slowly “migrated” back into the world of science and engineering I so enjoyed, and without much in the way of personal expectations, created a small but fulfilling world of my own within those parameters, before I retired.
There is a natural tendency to “corruption” within all of us, I expect, but it’s unwise to “extrapolate” this in any way. A “corrupted” environment has within it many instabilities: the bigger the environment, the greater these instabilities are.
Large corrupt organisations (like Enron) have the shortest of lifetimes. Just because you can point at SMALL (in relative terms) instances of corruption (and I agree with you: they are everywhere) doesn’t mean that there are LARGE ones that persist for sufficient time to create whatever mayhem.
You are forgetting that there is a constant turnover of participants. Each individual is always at his/her unique phase of existence. All things come to pass.
It is obvious to me that something (which I don’t believe you have yet mentioned) occurred in your life which “depolarised” and “repolarised” you, and I believe you have simply over-reacted.
We live in a very large and complex world, and we have only just learned that in spite of its size, it is finite, and as a consequence, our activities over the past two centuries are causing it to swing into a change.
There are ways to slow and nullify this change, but they aren’t the ways you suggest. Moreover, even the PTB know this (even if they ARE corrupt).
So, you just aren’t correct. Scientists don’t agree with you, the PTB don’t agree with you, and nor do I. Your “mission” is a complete waste of everyone’s time.
In WWII there was an expression: SNAFU: “Situation normal – all f—-d up”.
It’s no different right now.
So you and I both concede air traffic has increased dramatically. Will you then concede that these aircraft are leaving contrails that persist LONGER than had previously been the case?
Yes I would.
Do you know why, on average, contrails persist longer now?
Flatter me
Contrails persist longer now because the contrails factor of modern high-bypass turbofan jet engines is higher than the contrail factor of the older low and medium bypass jet engines.
In addition, global warming (or some factor in the global climate change) has resulted in a more humid atmosphere (as the oceans warm up), which naturally results in longer lasting contrails.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/globalwarming/2007-10-10-humidity-increase_N.htm
I also believe that high temperatures also result in larger vertical components in air mass movements, which hence results in greater probability of contrail formation due to the advection of moisture and aerosol nuclei from low to high altitudes. But I’ll have to check that.
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that contrails are becoming more persistent because of global warming keeping the atmosphere more humid. I’ll also assume you’ll admit these man made cloud formations exasberate global warming, why then no talk about engine reconfiguration, if as you say, newer engines are also to blame? Why not go back to the old engines to cut back on contrails, and perhaps avoid the proposed carbon taxes and decreased commerce. I realize getting better MPG’s save on fuel comsumption, but this harldy seems like a beneficial tradeoff. And if warming is the contributing factor to the increase in persistency, shouldn’t this be a non issue in colder, or drier climates? And if we begin to enter into a cooling period [as I believe we are, thus the need for heat inducing man made clouds to perpetuate the myth] should contrails become less and less noticable?…..I think that part of your belief about the global warming scenario is this; ” Ok, so if global warming is real, it could lead to the end of life as we know it, if it’s not, but we still act as if it was, once we determine it wasn’t real, we can then regain all the liberties we gave up for this cause,..after all, this is a democracy, we ARE the government”
This is a common misconception among global warming enthusiasts….The fact is we AREN’T the government, anything we give up for this myth, we will never be able to regain. And the ability of poorer nations to progress through industrialization will be prevented…Seriously, have you ever considered the consequences of action, if the warming we saw was cyclical, and not human induced?
Why no talk? There’s lots of talk, huge amounts of talk. In fact contrail mitigation has been an ongoing topic of research for decades. However going back to the old engines is not practical due to A) the huge expense, and B) the increase in carbon emissions. So the focus has been on other techniques – such as simply flying along different routes and at different times based on the weather. See:
http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/32460
Jakeability, since you second post had nothing to do with contrails, and was address to Jazzroc, I deleted it and reposted it, under your name, on his blog:
http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/01-compendium/
feel free to continue the discussion there. I realize you feel very strongly about the topic of bankers, but this blog is about contrails.
“Why no talk? There’s lots of talk, huge amounts of talk”
Maybe the correct question then is; WHY NO ACTION?
And what about my other questions? There were more than one.
There is no current action because it’s not thought to be a priority. The focus is on carbon emissions, as that is thought to be a far greater warming influence, and is very hard to fix. The effect of contrails is not really understood – but there is a LOT of ongoing study:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=warming+contrails&scoring=r
your other questions:
Global warming is global, so the humidity rise is global. Drier climates have always had fewer contrails than wetter climates, but now they are a bit more humid, so they will have more than they did.
Individual flights will, on average, produce shorter lasting contrails if humidity decreases.
Remember these are all average we are talking about – you can’t point at any one contrail and say “that’s there because of global warming”.
Another thing to consider with global warming – if the temperature is 3.5F warmer than normal, than that means that the region in which contrails form is 1000 feet higher, on average.
The science of contrail formation is very complicated, with a large number of variable.
Jakeability, a question for you, given the huge amount of research that is going on into the climatic effects of contrails, how exactly would you think that some fuel additive has never been noticed?
I mean, look, here’s 818 articles on the warming effect of contrails:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=warming+contrails&btnG=Search
A vast amount of science and research. Now, if jets are making more contrails than science would indicate (for normal jet fuel), then why has no scientist noticed this?
Uncinus-I appreciate your deleting and reposting of my comment to JazzRoc for a couple of reasons.
1. Since JazzRoc justed posted a comment three days ago, on this site, a request that I give him a week to “rearrange” his site so that he can make it more “comment friendly”, I’m sure he will recieve it with no problems, since apparently you couldn’t have left it up here, even for say 24 hours and then delete. Seems reasonable.
2.And since you’re reply to #1 is predictably going to be “It wasn’t related to contrailscience specifically”, why not delete some of his previous comment that also weren’t specifically about contrails. One of his previous posts referenced ‘confirmation bias’, and yet you’ve exhibited it by not deleting his comments also, thus promoting your own thoughts. And if he were to recieve your redirect, and respond to my post here on this site, would you then have to delete his post? How about if I post to him like this….Uncinus/JazzRoc..would that help avoid deletion?
Looks like he’s finished rearranging his site, so you can just continue the conspiracy/banking discussion there.
Now, what about all those contrail scientists?
Contrail scientists,..no thanks. I’ve learned all I can here, I’ll look for more fertile ground elsewhere. You haven’t the curiosity to check on any of these other variables I’ve suggested…Good luck with the site.
So you don’t think it odd that the scientists failed to notice any unusual change in contrails?
What is your analysis of the satellite photos on this interesting site?
http://www.bariumblues.com/
You might want to give me a more detailed link. All I can see there is one small satellite photo on the lower left, of what looks like contrails over the Great Lakes and Detroit.
Here’s the same area today, also with lots of contrails:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA3.2008328.terra.1km
“…lots of contrails:” and lake-effect snow after a period of northwesterlies still lying.
Great sat pic!
Perhaps there is a logical explanation for the tanks seen in this video,..hopefully you can fill me in as to their purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wye2YWRohT4
Yes there is, see this post, which covers most of the photos in that video:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/
If you have another question about a video, please give me the time at which the images come up, so I can be sure I’m talking about the same thing you are. There were a few “tanks” there.
Even “if” chemtrails were real, these photos seem too incriminating to be true….Uncinus, based on all your interaction with commentors, and your own assumptions, with complete disregard to ‘chemtrails’,do you believe there is a global shadow government, and has been for many years? Or do you believe the President holds the highest office?
Did you read the explanations? All those photos are of actual planes of known purpose. None of them are planes for increasing cirrus cover. What exactly is incriminating? Which photo is incriminating?
My beliefs regarding a global shadow government are irrelevant to the subject of contrails. A conspiracy could exist with or without a shadow government.
You misunderstood me. I accepted your descriptions of the tanks, and I looked at all the other photos, I agree with your conclusion there. I only said that when I originally seen the photos of the tanks in the video, I thought there was a logical explanation for these, for if they were related to “chemtrails”, then they would have been too incriminating.
I will also accept the shadow government is irrelevant to our particular discussion of contrails,….I was only asking your opinion.
Uncinus-How old are you?, if you don’t mind me askin.
Oh okay, yes, I misunderstood.
I’m about 43,
On a lighter note,……how is someone about 43? About?
It’s an approximate age, for privacy.
Uncinus. Your at it again. I’ve seen you on so many sites defending the faith. It’s Just Ice Particles! Right?
Contrails are generally made of ice, yes. Since 1918.
I don’t really post anywhere other than here and YouTube – maybe you are thinking of someone else?
Uncinus-Why would a plane be headed south, then make a complete 180 degree turn and then head north?This happened about one hour ago. I believe, but am not sure, that one of the arguments you’ve made against ‘chemtrails’ was that nobody has ever filmed a plane making a complete 180. I did film it, and I will upload it for you to see. I’m hoping you have an explanation though, so that I don’t have to upload it.
I saw one doing 180s just the other day:
http://contrailscience.com/voodoo-contrails-over-los-angeles/
There are lots of reasons why a plane might make a 180 turn. Training flights, research flights, military patrols, sudden change of plans (for executive jets, it happens).
Still, I’d be interested in your video. Can you give the date, time, location and approximate heading of the jet?
Uncinus-It actually seemed like alot of odd flight paths today, and alot of loops out above the ocean. I usually see them @30-40 miles inland, as you have said, but today there have been alot more closer to the coast, traveling almost southwest, and northeast. Why the odd activity today you think?
I will upload the videos I took earlier when I have a little more time. Lot’s of family, not much internet. What about you, plans for tomorrow?
I can’t really add much to my last comment. Planes fly in circles sometimes for perfectly normal reasons.
Uncinus-Heres the video I took. It’s from 11/26/08, approximately 11 am. The plane first heads south, then north…..
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=47283019
Looks like a normal contrail, but a somewhat unusual path. My best guess would be that this is a training flight. Of course it could also be some kind of research flight. Is this over Tilamook?
Check out this photo of the same day, sometime around mid-day:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_HJAndrews.2008331.aqua.250m
There’s some racetrack contrails up to the north of you, and a bunch of scraggly trails off the coast. You can see how the contrails form around the edge of that huge bank of clouds.
@the true believers
I’ve noticed contrails ever since I can remember, in the early 80s, when I had them explained to my by my father, an Air Force pilot who has since become an Orthopedic Surgeon in a small scale private practice and he did not indicate that they were anything new. If someone wants to suggest that *he* is part of some grand conspiracy you’d just be digging yourself deeper and reinforcing my belief all the more that you are misguided pattern seekers. I saw them last and spread. I saw them have limited lengths. I saw planes cross paths and leave (gasp) crossing contrails.
Your chemtrails are a modern mythology. You’ve moved on from believing that Zeus is behind lightning, Persephone behind the seasons and Apollo behind the sun’s track across the sky. Your pantheon of gods used to explain phenomena that are beyond your ability or willingness to understand is now the government, the military and deep seated conspiracies.
It’s really scary to me how persistent you are. You will push for years and perhaps grow in numbers, demanding that the government be accountable for chemtrails. This is like demanding that Zeus be held accountable for and cease from causing lightning. He is not the cause. Some nebulous conspiracy is not the cause of contrails. Water vapor is, just as a differential in electrical charge being suddenly discharged is the cause of lightning. You will push and push and get no answers because you are wrong, but the defeaning silence from the scientific community and the government will only convince you of your own correctness. A bit sorry really.
Seriously, isn’t it a bit sad how “everyone” suddenly started noticing contrails around the time some radio host started talking about them? How can you ignore the people who noticed them before (like me. call me a liar now and see how far you get), or the mounds of photographs from 60 years ago that show the same things? “They must be new because I just started noticing them myself” is so solipsistic as to be absurd. “They must have started around 10 years ago because that is when radio hosts started talking about them” is so ass backwards and ignorant of fact as to be ridiculous.
Your only recourse is to extend the supposed start date of the supposed conspiracy back to World War 2. This should be easy, all sorts of crazy stuff was proposed back then, like a gigantic aircraft carrier made of sawdust infused ice (I’m serious). That never happened, just as weather control for military purposes never happened, because it *isn’t feasible*. Now I could be wrong about that, you never know. But that doesn’t change the basic facts about contrails being the same as they always have been and I refuse to entertain any speculation that this vast conspiracy sprang into being at precisely the moment high altitude flight was achieved. Some nutjob might say “this conspiracy is the reason high altitude flight was achieved!” Well, speculate until the cows come home. At that point, might as well wonder if the Wright brothers were in on it
@91GoodVibes1378@yahoo.com
I take issue with the phrasing of your sentence that implies that the report came from the physics/astronomy department of BYU. It came from one man: Steven Jones. Jones’ paper was never published in a peer reviewed journal. Jones was also, for all intents and purposes, fired. He is no longer with the university. Jones was among the faculty alone in his views and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to associate those views with my alma mater.
@Uncinus
your patience is incredible. Thanks for the site. It gives me hope that there are still people who let themselves be governed by reason, but at the same time fills me with despair at all the counter examples who come out of the woodwork to bash this site like a modern day Copernicus. Reason and science will prevail, though I shudder to see the struggle it apparently always will be.
Uncinus-Do you believe “chemtrail conspiracy theorists” slander pilots? Or the Aviation industry?
Are you asking for my legal opinion? I think you need to be a bit more specific, but I’d say that in general that the accusations are too broad and untargeted to be construed as slander. I don’t think you can slander an industry.
Jakeability, you know I do…
Uncinus seems more forgiving and cautious than myself. I think one should be at first aware of, then responsible for, one’s actions.
He is also more sensible than myself, and keeps himself strictly within the science of contrails. This enables him to be unerringly precise. In my experience he has never been incorrect.
I’m an exuberant wastrel of emotion and volatility compared, and am quite prepared to exaggerate a bit to prove a point, and also to read up in areas previously unfamiliar, and stamp about in them. Maybe sometimes I’m less accurate, but at least (or at most) my spelling is better.
Different folks, different strokes…
So why are you asking the question?
Uncinus-No, I was’t asking a legal question…just curious. In a previous “session” with JazzRoc he said he thought “chemtrail conspiracy theorists” slander pilots, which I likened to anti-war protestors protesting policy, not the soldiers.
JazzRoc-I am becoming more familiar with your particular “style”, and I definitely enjoy it! I am also more volatile than sensible, which is why Uncinus baffles me somewhat. I’m always curious about the motive of “debunkers” of this, and other subjects…….Oh, and just for the record,..JazzRoc does spell much better!
Jakeability, in case you want to know my motive:
I hate it when people call me a murderer and write lies and assumptions about my profession.
Like we say in aviation: Assumptions are the mother of all fuckups.
Virga-If someone has specifically called you a murderer, then that is wrong. I think that IF chemtrails are real, most pilots don’t even know about it. Just as most doctors don’t know [or won't admit] that vaccines [in their present form] are dangerous. They simply believed the edited research presented by Merck. If someone protests the war in Iraq, only a fool believes this to be slandering the troops. People protest the POLICY that put the troops in Iraq, not the troops themselves!. I am a dairy farmer. When people suspect conspiracies of Monsanto to add BGH into the milk supply, this in NO way slanders me, or my proffesion, so why do you feel this way? My overall feeling about ‘chemtrails’, at this point is…like we say in the dairy business…”I smell bullshit”.
Uncinus-To me, JazzRoc’s acknowledgment of our government’s sponsored false flag terrorism has leant more credibility to his position than all of the so called ‘contrail science’ you have attempted to “flex” at me. I don’t think science is “disinfo”, I believe your science has been filtered and edited. Anybody who believes the “thermal expansion” theory in referrence to building 7, as you do, forfeit almost all credibility going forward. We’ve seen Bush’s cronies edit the climate report before, and many, many people believe the government’s evidence and research into 9/11 is completely fiction. They haven’t even charged Osama BinLaden, let alone capture him. I’m still not 100% convinced chemtrails are real, but for this conspiracy to have maintained itself for this long, and continue to grow, seems a bit unusual….Are the chem/contrails being reported in every country? How about Panama?
Panama? Probably not that many, as there are not that many flights over Panama compared to say, Texas. There are probably 100 times as many flights over Texas as there are over Panama. But I’m sure there are some, occasionally, depending on the weather.
In fact, there were probably some today, based on this satellite photo:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=CAmerica_3_04.2008346.terra.1km
Click “prev” a few times, you’ll see contrails in the region.
The reason I ask about Panama, is I know of a women who moved there, because, in her words, there are never chemtrails in Panama. I wasn’t sure if this is true…..What do you make of these “fibers” that are supposedly being found occasionally falling from the sky?
I’ have to see which fibers you are referring to. But I’d suspect they are the normal sort of fibers you see in the sky – mostly spider silk, and various types of seeds. Like, for example, dandelion snow, or these cottonwood seeds:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2690.html?theme=light
What do you make of the cloud formations in this short clip,….seems like this former weather man might be going off of more than just a “radio hoax”, don’t you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZwh8WLTMUU
What planet is this cloud from? Could it be a product of HAARP, or weather modification,..or is this a normal cloud, under the ‘right’ circumstances?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5VUTNLI4Uo
I’ll quote what someone says on YouTube:
There are always going to be odd looking clouds. Check out the cloud appreciation society:
http://cloudappreciationsociety.org/gallery/
Yes, Scott Stevens is convinced the Russians are controlling our weather. He sees patterns everywhere. Unfortunately nobody else does. He’s forever looking at normal clouds and seeing some kind of pattern in them. Really the supposedly odd clouds he points at are are just the same as back in 1905:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Uncinus/CloudStudies1905And1925#
How can this entire area be under the ‘right’ circumstances?…seems very large to all be under the same conditions, and if the story is correct, are there really that many civilian flights every morning?
http://www.infowars.com/print/misc/gossamer.htm
That was an unusual day, but yes it was simply that the conditions were right for that area – not the whole area note, just various bands within it. And yes, there are that many flights.
That’s a very commonly used photo – but the fact that it’s used so often speaks to how unusual the conditions were.
Here’s the same region on the same day in 2008 – still some contrails, just not as many – you could probably look through the photos and finda similar day.
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA7.2008029.terra.1km
Here’s some days that show similar regions. Not quite as big though:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA7.2007315.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA7.2007328.terra.1km
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA7.2007339.terra.1km
It’s a mistake to say this is anything like typical. The original photo you linked was quite an unusual day – maybe once every few years. But of course – that happens every few years.
This one is probably the closest:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=USA7.2007358.terra.1km
Uncinus-As a former pilot, do you think the pilot of the plane that hit the pentagon had the training to complete the aerial manuever as described by the planes data?
Do you understand the principle….”It’s not who votes that counts, it’s who counts the votes”….Based on this principle, do you think NASA airbrushes or edits any of their satellite photos? Perhaps they feel as if…”It’s not the science that counts, it’s who’s counting the science”
I have no experience of flying large jets, so I’d defer to someone who does: start reading at page 9 (or preferably at the start) of this document:
http://www.911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf
I’m really only here for the contrails though.
I don’t think they edit their photos – but why should I base my beliefs on that principle?
So if you don’t fly large jets,…then what is your day job [besides maintaining this site]?….And the 9/11 link was very interesting,….it must be true then. Check out this clip, it’s a Phillip Morris CEO on TV saying cigarettes aren’t unhealthy for pregnant women. Since I provided a link to it, it too must also be true,..cigarettes are healthy after all….Start at the begining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpwcF3Malj8
You don’t have to base your beliefs on this principal, but unfortunately this is the situation we’re in…Who has more power, the voter, or the electronic vote counting machines?…Likewise science can be supressed by scientists.
Your reasoning seems a little backwards. If “they” are attempting to manipulate public opinion (by removing contrails from satellite photos), then obviously the votes are very important. You think this last election was rigged? All the polls too?
You seem to have a lot of speculation – where the hard evidence? What, in fact, are you actually claiming? Or are you just making vague intimations that the government is bad, and that they might be doing bad things.
(a contrails related answer would be appreciated)
No I don’t think the last election was rigged…They got who “they” wanted, but 2 out of the last 3 is pretty bad..As a global warming advocate, you too probably think Florida in ‘00 and Ohio in ‘04 were stolen….So if NASA edits photos, it’s not necessarily to manipulate public opionion, but to omit particular facts from the public……As far as me speculating as to the curruption of government,…..this is their own fault. You judge a tree by it’s fruits. If I pick 4 apples from a tree, and their ALL rotten,….I will then presume something drastic has happened to the tree….My reasoning is not backwards, their reasoning is backward,…”The end justifies the means”. I may seem backwards because their social engineering programs have to be reverse engineered.
And once again, we’ve come all the way back to…wait…hold….”hard evidence”
If I had accused the US military of spraying chemical agents [agent orange] back in Vietnam, you would have asked for “hard evidence”,…of course none existed for many, many years later, but the FACT remained. You think “hard evidence” is providing a documented link,….so then what did you think about my evidence proving cigarettes to be safe?
I think you need to look at what constitutes evidence.
Evidence consists of many things, but the most important is statistically meaningful observations. If statistics tie smoking to lung cancer (accounting for confounding factors), then that’s evidence of a causal link, regardless of there being no known causal mechanism. A CEO saying otherwise is not evidence.
What evidence is there of some contrails are being deliberately made more persistent than others?
None.
First you say [paraphrasing] “no plane has EVER been filmed turning around to fly parallel to it’s previous course”
So then I film just this,..and you say….[predictably] “Training or Research” “Maybe somebody forgot something”
In the ‘chemtrail on/off’ videos you say “They just flew through a very, very small area under different weather conditions”
In the satellite image of the southeast, you say “Oh, that happens every few years” and can’t find a single image half as full as the one I linked to.
So you too have proven this to be more ‘contrailspeculation’ than ‘contrailscience’
Like OJ’s attorney’s,….they weren’t trying to prove OJ innocent, they were only trying to maintain REASONABLE DOUBT.
You aren’t disproving ‘chemtrails’ either ["could be training, or research, or that only happens every few years"]
You only hope to imply reasonable doubt. What evidence do you have that proves what is coming out of these jets, is exactly the same as it always has been.
none.
If I stand outside to smoke a cigarette on a cold day, what I exhale while smoking is very similar to what I exhale while not smoking. They look similar,…but one might cause cancer, while the other is only noticable because of the cold weather.You would argue they are the same.
Chemtrail and contrails are similar.
It would seem that as a meteorologist, Scott Stevens would be more reliable than a blogger who refers to himself as “just some guy”
This article seems to describe your motives and perspective pretty well.
http://www.rense.com/general30/deby.htm
What is your day job again?
I was referring to the where people say they see planes fly back and forth from horizon to horizon. I’ve discussed “racetrack” contrails several times, and had a post on them on the site for nearly a year:
http://contrailscience.com/racetrack-contrails/
My point about the lack of videos is that what people describe seems more likely to be some planes flying one way, and then other planes flying the other way- in a very busy airway (like, say, North-South over Oregon), this might look like a couple of planes flying back and forth.
So? That’s what all the experts say, see:
http://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
You think I should go through 1000 days of satellite photos to find a similar one? I’m not sure what the problem is here. I said the photo show an uncommon situation. So what?
They look and act EXACTLY the same. There is nothing to suggest they are not the same. Cigarette smoke does not look exactly the same as your breath on a cold day.
Heh, define “reliable”. I’ve never claimed to be an expert at anything, which is why I use so many references to scientific papers, books, etc. What references does Stevens use?
Now what does my day job have to do with anything?
I like to try to stick to the facts, and stick to science, and preferably try to stick to contrails. If you’d like to discuss those, then I’d be quite happy to.
References? Scott Stevens was a proffesional, for all I know, you may be the proverbial “PJ blogger living in their parents’ basement”…where are your credentials? What is your day job?
I don’t claim to have any credentials, nor any particular day job. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that I’m a PJ blogger living my parent’s basement.
So? When I quote actual scientists, does that make what they have to say somehow wrong, because I copied their words while in my PJs? It’s their work I’m quoting, not mine.
Stevens quotes his own work, promoting odd theories, simply based on him observing odd shapes in the clouds that nobody else can see:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/science/weather_mod_stevens_quits_pursue_theories.htm
This is not PJ Blogger vs. ex weatherman. It’s ex-weatherman vs. science.
Scott Stevens is completely open and honest,..he still may be wrong, but he leaves everything on the table. You make claims, but for the sake of “privacy” you won’t reveal your credentials? Scott Stevens apparently has nothing to hide,….you however? hmmmmm….So who’s more credible, the ones out in front, or people like you hiding in the shadows, supposedly “flexing their scientific muscle”
That’s entirely up to the reader to decide. I claim no credentials. Make your own judgments.
The reason for the reference to the “PJ basement blogger”, is because this is the type of labels “debunkers” apply to anyone proposing any conspiracy theory, in an attempt to discredit them. Surely you are very familiar with this tactic. Your day job is relative to this discussion….would you take medical advice from a plumber? Of course not..furthermore, would you accept the assertion of a Phillip Morris’ employee that cigarette smoking is safe?..obviously there would be a conflict of interest. So when people ask for your profession, they are curious about your possible conflicts of interest….very simple….yet you evade and deflect.
You claim no credentials, but you do wish to influence public opinion,..correct?
Why do you pursue my credentials when I’ve told you I don’t have any? I really don’t. I know a bit about the weather from my private pilot training. I’m interested in science and clouds so I’ve read some books and lots of internet stuff. I’m not a weatherman and I’m not a scientist. Feel free to assume I’m just some sad geek if it helps your argument.
Really, let’s focus on the science.
I understand,..no credentials,…just out of curiosity then, how do you pay the bills. Are you a janitor, a teacher, a mechanic..whatever. Not related to contrailscience, what is your day job ? porfavor? A:_____________
I’d prefer to keep the discussion here to contrails. My profession has nothing to do with contrails. It’s not relevant.
I understand it’s not relevant. You can simply delete this conversation.Just for the sake of curiosity….Hi, my name is Jake [Jakeability] I am a dairy farmer…………….[your turn....be polite]
If you get paid to maintain this site….then it could be relevant.
I don’t get paid to maintain this site. It’s a hobby.
I’m doing this because it’s interesting, not for a social life. This is blog where I write about contrails and the “chemtrail” theory. That’s it.
alright
Jakeability:
I applaude you. You see uncinus for what his purpose really is here as I do. He cannot back up his arguments with any REAL science as the title of his disinformation website suggests. On the credibility issue, he is so quick to discredit anyone that suggests that this sickenning mutulation of our atmosphere is anything but “normal contrails”. Yet, he hides behind his username to spread his manipulated information on a website that is completely controlled by himself as the moderator. He will not reveal himself but people like Cliff Carnicum, Will Thomas and many others that he claims have no credibility have put themselves out there and are willing to personally back up their claims while uncinus hides behind his webpage calling them all liars. Of course, this is your typical website being maintained by an average guy that is just doing it as a “hobby” on the side simply because he enjoys clouds. Yeh, right! Of all the video evidence and personal accounts of millions concerned people around the globe, not one of them is of any concern to uncinus because everyone of them are nothing more than contrails behaving persistently. According to him, this is the way it has been happenning for all of your life. Bullshit! I have been an avid skywatcher since I was a toddler and this is nothing like it was then and I am nearly 50. Whenever anyone tells him the same thing he tells them they are wrong and just dont remember it correctly. It is statements like that where uncinus loses his credibility. People are not stupid. (most people). They know what they are seeing is not “normal” and have good reason to be concerned. The fact that he will not even consider the possibility of anything other than normal contrail activity is why people are suspicious of his real intentions and purpose here. I have posed the question to him several times asking him why he is so quick to discredit anyone that even mentions the word chemtrail and how is it possible that he knows more about what they are describing when he was not even there when the person wittnessed it. This is not the disposition of a mere hobbyist interested in clouds. These are the actions of a man with a mission who is determined to make sure that nobody believes anyone that thinks that this massacre of our skies is anything other than contrails. You either have to be blind, brainwashed or sponsered to not aknowledge it. I have posted many arguments on the ‘Barium Chemtrails’ thread of this website where he just repeats the same crap over and over also. I have been labeled a conspiracy theorist and called a nutjob wearing a tinfoil hat or accused of having little or no education etc…etc…etc… because this is the only method they have to promote their lies. Since they have no cridibility themselves, their only alternative is to try to discredit others that seek the truth and want real answers. Good luck. you will not get anywhere in your attempts to apply logic and reason on this website because it is here for one purpose only. What makes it so easy to accomplish is the fact that the truth is so inconceivable that no one wants to believe it. Therefore, it is much more comfortable to believe that it is not really happening. Bury your head in the sand and maybe it will go away. Unfortunately, that will not make it go away. I dont understand how so many people can ignore it while it is happening in plain site right in front of their own eyes! Wake up people! This is the future of mankind and all living things at stake here! Stop being manipulated and start believing and trusting your own eyes and trusting your own mind before it is too late!
I try to address the arguments, focus on the facts, and avoid ad hominem arguments. If you’d like to point out more specifically where you think I’m in error then please do so.
uncinus says:
My question is:
What makes your “contrails” suggestion any less of a theory? You say it as if your explaination is proof and all claims to chemtrails are false. Yet you have provided nothing that proves what people are wittnessing are not what they claim. How do the photos of what you claim to be contrails prove that the photos submitted as chemtrails are not chemtrails? What makes your claim credible and all the other claims theories? How do you know more about what people are physically wittnessing and experiencing when they are at ground zero and you are far away sitting behind your computer? Are you God? This so called “hobby” of yours seems more like an obsession to debunk all chemtrails at any cost, no matter how utterly ridiculous some of your explainations are.
Rudedog…
your lack of cognitive reality is simply stunning…
After all the published, peer reviewed, scientific papers that have been posted here…that unequivocally show that what people claim are “chemtrails” are more than likely persistent contrails…and that these contrails have indeed been known, observed and studied for over 50 years (whether you remember them or not)..
…and you claim that Uncinus has presented no “real” science…wow. simply stunning.
Are you really that blinded by your own feverish emotions that you block out reality?
You clearly cannot interact on a rational and logical level.
Good luck with that.
PS: Uncinus never “discredits” people…only their theories and logic or lack thereof. He does not attack the person…unlike yourself.
Jakeability, I have addressed this nasty piece of work under “Penrod” in my blog at
http://jazzroc.wordpress.com
Seeing as Uncinus addresses just the contrail/chemtrail question, perhaps you’d like to work through those points with me?
Thanks Rudedog,…we just want the truth. Uncinus is very shady, which only fuels speculation. Maybe he doesn’t understand this,…although he does believe in the “science” of “thermal expansion”, so perhaps he is incapable of understanding. Although I’m still not sure chemtrails aren’t simply more persistent contrails, this in no way is because of Uncinus’ “contrailscience”. I’m actually leaning towards JazzRoc’s point of view. He accepts the truth of 9/11 and the ongoing banking fraud, and sees chemtrails as a “red herring”, distracting from more serious issues. From that perspective I lend him ALOT of credibility. I will keep digging though.
Jakeability,
the difference between me and people like uncinus and SR1419 is, I am not here trying to convince the public that there is no such thing as persisting contrails. However, although persisting contrails can form under permitting conditions, it is perposterous to claim that all of the video and photographic material that has been documented and presented are nothing more than jet contrails. I have literally wittnessed the deliberate saturation of the air take place and watched it slowly sink to the ground many times under hot dry weather conditions. Day after day after day. I have seen more aircraft fly over in one day than there would be in a weeks worth of scheduled flights, mutulating our sky with so called ‘condensation nuclei.’ I have been an avid skywatcher since I was a toddler. I remember actually watching jets leaving contrails and trying to find the ones that would last the longest before dissapating and even the most persistent contrails would not evolve this way. It simply would not happen no matter how much I wanted them too. When people like uncinus tell me that this is just not true and I am not remembering it correctly because it has been this way all of my life, well, it pretty much confirms to me that this website is more than the reslults of an ‘ordinary guy persuing his hobby because he thinks clouds are interesting’. In addition, the debunkers on this blog are constantly trying to convince people that are truly concerned about their futures and well being that they are not actually seeing what they think they are seeing, yet they have no way of actually knowing that. It is because of this determination to deceive the public with irrevelent information that gives me reason to be even more concerned. The fact that there is a deliberate campain to discredit the testimonies of ligitimate, sound minded citizens is why you should be concerned and why revealing the truth must never be allowed, whatever it may be. The persisting contrail ‘theory’ simply cannot account for what I have been physically subjected to living in the northwestern USA where prevailing winds conveniently carry the poison over as much of the population as possible. When I say poison I am talking about the staggering levels of aluminum and barium being and other elements being reported from test results of samples taken from our local lakes, rivers, ground samples, snow pack etc…..
I can literally see the strange material floating to the ground after an onslaught of jets have saturated the air with so called ‘contrails’. Give me a break. Fortunately, it has not been able to dumb me down enough yet to accept these ridiclulous explainations of what I am seeing and experiencing.
The dubunkers on the other hand, are determined to convince the public at any cost that chemtrails do not exist and the people that claim that they do are conspiracy theorists. Typical. A perfect example is the opening statement by SR1419 in response to a previous post of mine when he says: “your lack of cognitive reality is simply stunning”. What exactly is he trying to imply with that statement? That I am not cognitive and I have no sense of reality?
He also says: “Are you really that blinded by your own feverish emotions that you block out reality?” and “You clearly cannot interact on a rational and logical level”.
These are the sort of tactics you will see throughout this website. Simply because my interpretation of my experiences does not fit his agenda, I must be ‘irrational’ with ‘feverish emotions’ with no sense of logic or reality.
Thats a pretty serious diagnosis from someone that I have never had any contact with. Is SR1419 the one of us that is being rational and logical here? Perhaps his feverish emotions are getting the best of him. You be the judge.
rudedog said:
You also claim there is a lot of photographic evidence. So where is the photographic or video evidence of this sinking to the ground? I’d like to see that.
Were these the doctors and scientists you mentioned before?
http://proliberty.com/observer/20060504.htm
Uncinus,
Show me where I said that I have photographic or video evidence of the material sinking to the ground. What I said was I have watched it sink to the ground on several occassions. In other words, I was describing something that I have personally wittnessed but once again you have attempted to twist it into something else. Anyway, this is not something that is easily photographed or recorded on video. To the untrained eye it simply looks like fog, especially when video taped or photographed. However, if you were unfortunate enough to be here during one of these events, you would not have a doubt in your mind that what you are seeing is not fog. In addition, if you can manage to capture it under the right lighting conditions, it is possible to capture it on video. I have seen video of it and it is exactly what I have seen. In fact I have seen video of it from a link that someone posted on one of your threads. As usual you were quick explain it away as something else or accuse the blogger of trying to generate some kind of hoax or something. But you have demonstrated that it is to be expected here so I was not surprised at all.
I like the line in this story that suggests “military activity”
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/soilradar.html
What do you mean by “the untrained eye”? What does it take to be able to recognize it?
Perhaps if you can’t photograph it, you could draw a diagram? What exactly is going on? How long does it take for the contrail to reach the ground? How high does it start? What else it going on in the sky at the same time? Can you take a photo and explain what is going on in the photo? Do you know anyone else who saw the same thing as you did? What is their description?
rudedog, could you give the date and location of what you saw? We could then obtain the atmospheric sounding near that location and check if something drifting down from 6 and a half miles overhead would reach the ground right there.
The atmospheric soundings are available from this site:
http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html
Uncinus-In a previous conversation about contrails didn’t you say;
“The sunspot theory does not have many supporters (or any real evidence)”
22,000 scientists [with credentials] are all wrong?
http://inpursuitofhappiness.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/22000-scientists-disagree-with-un-global-warming-push/
31,072 now. But that’s an anti-Kyoto petition that says:
http://www.petitionproject.org/index.html
The petition says nothing about sunspots, nor does it deny that carbon emissions cause global warming. It’s also a self-selected sample of people with degrees, not a representative cross-section of scientists actually investigating climate change. How many people with degrees did NOT sign it?
Rudedog, the saturation of the air may well take place, but it isn’t really caused deliberately.
Increasing addition of water by regular civil passenger transport flight is temporarily exceeding the stratosphere’s capacity to absorb it.
Whenever that happens IT IS INEVITABLE that the conditions you observe take place.
If you REALLY count up the number of flights (as found in flight explorer) that take place above you, you’ll find (in your worst scenario) slightly less than the number of flights that you have seen.
The rest will be Canadian and Mexican (and a few others) which will make up the number – EXACTLY.
Hey Uncinus,
I’ve read a couple of your exchanges with the chemtrail believers. I can see what you’re trying to do here, but I feel bad about the time you must be spending trying to answer these inane questions. I’m an aerospace engineering undergrad and the things you have on your website are great. I was led here by my search for an explanation of the shuttle shadow intersecting the moon.
Really the problem here is the lack of conformity or the lack of belief in the scientific method. Claims are easy to make but they should never be taken seriously without evidence. I can claim that my coffee is being spiked with chemicals from the government. However, unless I do a spectral analysis of the chemical makeup of the coffee and come up with conclusive numbers showing a unusually high concentration of an unusual chemical, the claim is bogus and should not be taken seriously. I plead of everyone who believes in these conspiracy theories: if you accept “innocent until proven guilty”, should you not accept “false until proven true”? You cannot do it the other way around (i.e. “true until proven false”) because that would mean you had to accept EVERY POSSIBLE IDEA as true until some disproves it. That would mean, yes, I can fly around like superman and shoot lasers out of my eyes and you would simply accept it as true until someone proves me wrong. But how can someone prove me wrong? I can just tell them I never feel like flying around and shooting lasers out of my eyes. Not only that, but evidence for claims must be peer reviewed. To simply claim evidence by yourself is insufficient. It has to be shown by other people scientifically in order to be accepted. Please, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method .
Anyway, great work Uncinus!
Well i don’t know about you guys but we must have some of the dumbest, directionally dysfunctional pilots in all the world here in Florida because i watch the planes on a daily basis spraying this crap and they will fly almost out of sight do a big u-turn come back and spray some more, sometimes 2 planes sometimes up to about 6 at a time doing the same pattern over and over all day, now i’m thinking maybe these pilots need to get mapquest on board or something??? Their altitude doesn’t change ( i know because sometimes they will fly right through the chemtrail they just sprayed) and i’ll be darned if those trails don’t appear in a nice little grid area..kinda like turning a switch on and off?? Now i am 42 years old and have never seen trails like this growing up nor do they act like “normal” contrails and you don’t need a frickin PHD in physics to clearly see these are not normal, but then again i guess anything is possible..hell Uncinus may actually even wake up one day!! NOT!!
Hi John, I think what you are seeing are just regular scheduled flights flying overhead. They fly in both directions, so it’s quite common for one to fly off one way as another is coming the other way. You live near Orlando, which has a lot of flight’s overhead on the way to Miami. Notice the directions of the trails? All towards (or away from) Miami, right?
The grid is just due to the wind.
Did you grow up in that location?
I see. Nothing has changed.
Some good common sense folks, who trust their eyes, and say it like it is, and then, there is Uncinus, who doesen’t see a thing ! Wow !
Addie, sometime “common sense” needs to have a sprinkle of science added to it. If you just used common sense, then would you not think that the earth was flat? It certainly looks flat? Why do you trust those scientists who say it is shaped like a ball? Why not trust common sense there?
Uncinus = teletype newspeak (plain and simple as the unclear blue sky!)
I’m 56 now and have remembered the sonic boomer that flew above in the late 50s in San Antonio and early 1960 down in the Rio Grande Valley where I reside currently. So I had a fascination for the traffic in the skies, which on some occasions, day or night an occasional UFO witnessed by me alone and at other times by several of us. However, never did I see long lasting white lines in the sky after the sonic jets or any other jet-liner, be it commercial or military, especially when Randolph Air Force Base, headquarters of the Air Education and Training Command; Brooks Air Force Base, home to the School of Aerospace Medicine; and Lackland Air Force Base, a major training center for recruits and which when I was a kid were all once very active in their aerial strategic pursuits. Today we here nothing of their aerial manuevers. But I can honestly say that there has been more astonishing samples in the sky that make me wonder what in the heavens is going on.
I was asked last year in a general letter addressed to me by Senator John Cornyn about my concerns for the state. I wrote back via email about my regard to the white lines in the sky. Two weeks later an attorney from his office called me on my private number to investigate what I have been witnessing in the skies day and night (stealth vehicles that fly very low without a sound or vibration after dark). He took note and said nothing to the effect, nor was I promised a reply or resolution. The only event that has occurred over my community a couple of months since my conversation with the Texas senator’s office is the audacious increase of spraying of white lines overhead that are definitely not contrails. They are too persistent and ugly to think otherwise. And again during the day and night.
Hi Jame, I was wondering what year it was when you first noticed these persistent trails? And where were you?
Remember that persistent contrails will usually only form at a high altitude (where it is cold), so if you lived in an out of the way place, like Harlingen, Texas, then you might not have got much in the way of overhead flight between distant cities. But looking at the map now:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KHRL
(click the small map in the top right to expand)
It looks like you get quite a few high level flights overhead going to Mexico. AAL22625 (KORD Chicago – MMPR Puerto Vallarta) , COA871 (KIAH Houston – MMAA Acapulco) and BTA2831 (KIAH Houston – MMBT Huatulco), all flying above you right now, at above 30,000 feet. It seems quite plausible that these flights were not happening 20 years ago, but they are now. Hence you noticed them at some point.
Uncinus (teletyped Niccolò Newspeak) has ignored the gist of my message. Simply speaking Orwellian but more Machiavellian in character. I can read between the lines Nic; perhaps senator Cornyn was on one of those flights to Mexico.
Try this for your perusal: What is round and bright aluminum in color, flying about an altitude of 6,000 feet or less (I use to fly in a Cherokee Piper at that altitude, mas o menos)but this vehicle has no wings nor has a tail, and it pours, yes pouring and not spraying, a powdery-like substance that simulates a persistent contrail? I thought it was a helicopter but it had no sound to distinguish its model. It was totally sinister in its appearance and stealth in its approach, and yes it was flying 10 o’clock high over my neighborhood in the middle of the afternoon. I give you my Rotarian honor.
I’ve flow a Cherokee at that altitude too, more or less.
Anyway, what you describe sounds very unusual. Did you happen to take photos? Given that it flew over you neighborhood in the middle of the afternoon, you would think someone would.
Are you sure you were not just looking at and A380, or similar, that was somewhat higher? Photos would settle the matter. Not hard to take.
I’m not Japanese, Nic! Is photos your best answer??? Than you either have no sixth sense or your minds eye is somewhat foggy with too much double speak.
Photos would be the most direct evidence of what you are describing, and they should be VERY easy to take, given what you say. The absence of photos detracts from your claims.
James again, I just wanted to tell you ( hope u are reading this ) that I saw this very same thing a week ago. It went from horizon to horizon in such a short time, it was unreal. And it left a thick grey trail that went right over my home and it stayed there.. for the rest of the day. The only thing that changed was.. it got wider and ended up looking like a huge spiderweb that had ” dripping ” fringes, is best I can explain it.
Something very very scary is going on, and no one answers my inquiries. Real nice for this to happen in this great US of A..
Freedom et al…
Photos can be very deceiving, Nic. My memory is sufficient and eye witnesses are my confirmation; besides, do you plan to publish any photos I may upload to you via photoshop? Just look up in the sky, compatriot, and see the white lines above you! They testify enough that an investigation merits a soluble answer. Quit you like men and stand up for the right, to God (or in the name of science so called), and to your country!
You choose memory and eye witness over photos as your evidence? Well, perhaps you could post a photo, and in addition, explain what you saw, to augment what the photo shows.
You see, right now, it just seems like you are misinterpreting what you are seeing. If something at 6000 feet with no wings pouting out “a powdery-like substance that simulates a persistent contrail” cannot be photographed, then perhaps your perception is wrong?
I’ll publish any photos you send me of this object. Either put them on the web and post a link, or email them to uncinus@gmail.com
Same old never ending dis-info garbage. How long can you continue on telling these people not to trust their own physical experiences?
Addie, I wish there were a way to contact you outside this mockery of of a website. I could provide you with some real insight which I choose not to divulge here for obvious reasons. This site was created for one purpose only and it will never provide the truth. Any information I provide here will be quickly attacked and become tarnished by the monsters that exist here.
You also need to be aware of the limitations of your physical experiences. Sometimes things are not as they seem. Are these lines parallel?
It’s an illusion. There are lots of them. You need to be careful in trusting what you eyes tell you. Verify it with science (like in this case, use a straight edge to check the lines are parallel).
rudedog,
I would love to hear what u have :
Write me please : CELLLINE@aol.com
uncinus says:
It’s an illusion. There are lots of them. You need to be careful in trusting what you eyes tell you.
Another typical response. Divert the readers attention to some off the wall drawing of an illusion as if this somehow proves that whenever someone reports about chemtrail activity, it is only an illusion.
In other words, dont trust your own eyes. Instead, trust the person who was not there and had no visual observation of the activity that you observed. He has a drawing of an optical illusion, therefore, your observation was also an illusion.
That is so weak! Unfortunately, so is the mind that succumbs to it.
The picture of the illusion was not intended as proof of anything. It was simply something to think about.
Can you always trust what your eyes are telling you? Always?
Yesterday.. I watched ” them” laying trails all day, and NO they were not ” contrails ”
I even took pics, but: Meanwhile I understand that we will never find out who’s doing it and why..ever !
So, I decided to let it be, I can’t live my life upset over the evilness of certain ” elements” who are living amongst us mere humans.
There are many groups now, that actively are trying to fight this terrible phenomena, but.. see above: it will be to no avail.
Waste of time and energy.
Addie, are you educated in meteo? If no, then how can you claim they were not contrails?
Anyone who does not think the Government has their best interest at heart is a FOOL,
I mean look, they take care of our teeth by putting flouride in our water..Oh wait….that does nothing but harm us?? Ok well that’s a bad example. Ok how about how there is an actual patented cure for aids. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=7&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5676977&s2=aids&OS=5676977+AND+aids&RS=5676977+AND+aids but oh crap, wait….our government actually created Aids.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDxZ7PX8YGI ,ok well i’m sure there is a perfectly good reason why we haven’t heard about this cure?? Ok well look, it’s not like our own gov has done anything in the past to actually cause HARM to it’s own citizens.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/4809/gov.html And even if they did it’s not like they would EVER do it again?? Well i seem to have been ill prepared to defend my government, but i know in my heart of hearts that my government loves and cares for me and only has the best intentions for it’s citizens. Well i have to go, i have some tea brewing sweetened with aspartame
Tootles
billybob, assuming for the sake of argument, that all that is true, then what evidence is there that some persistent contrails are actually chemtrails?
Sure, maybe the government is evil and conniving, but why exactly do you believe in chemtrails?
Well Uncinus, we can start off with 7 U.S. patents for weather modification. Seems like they have been very interested in owning the weather for quite sometime, Here is an actual research paper presented the the United States Air Force by 7 Air Force officers on owning the weather by 2025. http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf
And here are 2 links that will take you to 7 US patents on weather modification.
http://conspiration.ca/brevet_chemtrails/United%20States%20Patent%206,315,213.htm
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/patents.html
Check them out.
But what evidence do you have that the long trails you see are not contrails?
Do they act any different to contrails? Do they look any different? Do they last a different length of time?
Can you show me a photo of something that is not a contrail (and not a known form of spraying, like mosquito control, or crop dusting)?
I could show you HUNDREDS of photos and videos and documents Uncinus, but you have proven that no matter the evidence shown to you you still refuse to believe.
And quite honestly the only thing you have to offer here is your usual,
SPIT, RINSE, REPEAT theme which has become quite tiresome.
Later.
And I’ve provided explanations for all the photos, videos and documents. I must admit though it is getting a little repetitive – constantly having to explain the same thing over an over again.
Perhaps instead of me debunking your explanations, you could try to debunk one of mine? Any one of the pages on here? Anything wrong on this site? Feel free to point it out.
Uncinus, what’s ” wrong” here is a typical human thing.
People will believe what they want to believe, for one.
Now take a person who belongs to some crazy cult or something and you sit down w. him/her… and try to convince them, that they are wrong. It won’t matter what facts you bring up.. even proof.. they won’t hear a word u are saying. They have chosen to believe what they believe, and it is their comfortzone. No one likes to leave their comfortzone.. not even for the truth.
Facts are facts.. like math is math. Some people can’t grasp math.
You know.. like 1 + 1 = 3. See ?
So, when I see what I see and I know it’s something bad, but you don’t want to step out of your comfortzone and admit or see. then you will insist, it is NOT bad.
We can go on forever.. but really, it’s beginning to be pretty boring, I agree w. you.
And how long we want to go on w.: me saying ” Something isen’t right up there “…. and you will say :” It’s normal”, is a matter of this:’When o when will you be open to see, that 1 + 1 = 2 ???”
I know I am not very good w. English.. but eh.. gimme ” E” for effort please.
Addie, I’m not saying that what you see is not bad. That would be hard to do, as I don’t see what you see.
What I’m saying is that YOU have provided no evidence that it is bad. No evidence that it is even in the slightest bit unusual. You describe things that sound EXACTLY like persisting spreading contrails, and then say that’s bad.
You imply there is some difference between what you see, and persisting spreading contrails. So what is the difference?
.. the difference is : They linger all day, They are ” painting” designs.. like grids. They draw lines.. and go back to criss cross them , yes, I watch them do this. Why.. are they playing, and if they are.. who’s money are they using to ” play”?
Contrails don’t haze up the whole sky 24/7
Contrails don’t try to look like clouds, contrails are long lanes.. that vanish after a certain time.. depending on the weather, but never stay all day, ever,
They are faking clouds.. but it doesen’t work real good.. it always ends up like spiderwebs.. contrails don’t look like spiderwebs or grids.
Contrails are straight lines.
Another thing is: I have watched the grids and plumes appear, w.out seeing a craft that did it. Like an invisible stealth or something.
Even with binoculars.. I saw the developing formations.. but not the craft doing it.. that’s real weird.
Oh.. Unic, I just don’t know how to explain it any better.. and I am not good with play on words.
I know what I know and what I see… and you know what you know and see..
Can we start another subject please?
Just now….. I counted about 50 of those ” Puffies..” that appeared poof poof right one after the other.. w. no visible craft doing it !
And.. long lanes.. like traffic lanes.. real close together.. from horizon to horizon. The latter.. I have watched since this morning, they are not going away either.. as contrails would.. today.. they really have it in for us again.
I think, it’s originating in Lompoc.
Addie, if you can’t see the craft, then that’s because it’s too small and high. A neutral colored small jet at 40,000 feet will look pretty much like the sky due to Rayleigh scattering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_sky_radiation
On contrail does not look like a grid. But lots of contrails would. They do also “haze up the sky”, and always have.
What’s really interesting seems regardless of what these things are that they are, unarguably, affecting the weather. The patterns are sown, the drifting occurs, and the blue sky is turned to an ugly haze which most often persists for the remainder of the day.
This can only be refuted by one method, highly scientific, and very conspicuous: denial. Simple as that. The voices of denial on this board can methodically calculate responses in any which way, but the fact remains, that whatever this stuff is, it is most definitely affecting the weather.
Now of course would be the time to pooh-pooh this simple fact by saying something like oh well of course it is, nobody is denying that…. etc., etc.
So, my question for the man of the board who appears diligently, desperately, seeking the solace of fellow rationalists is thus: Are you aware of how intelligence operatives work in the pyramidal pecking order of rank and file, where in order to achieve desired results from an individual within the order, that person is revealed only enough information to garner their appreciation and dedication to the project?
And have you noticed that despite your advancement of intellect over the common class with respect to reason, that you are still subject to the same emotional gratification of one-upping your own class?
It is the foundation of fanaticism. You build a construct in your mind, like the atheist or any other religious fanatic, and you worship the construct as the final word.
I don’t see how that helps you or anybody else. But then again, having a better reference point, I haven’t understood that sort of pecking order mentality since.
Peace to all good people and I sincerely hope by now anyone reading this has figured out to omit animal products from their diet.
ijostl
ijostl, I’m really sorry, but I don’t know what you are trying to say there, regarding contrails. Could you perhaps point to some specific statement on this site that you disagree with? Or failing that, could you say, using you own words, what exactly it is you disagree with?
I’m not building a construct here, I’m using science. I’m examining the evidence.
Where exactly did I go wrong?
Jostle- indeed- persisting contrails covering the sky in a haze of man-made cirrus clouds does affect the visible weather…
…and atmospheric scientists have oft wondered as to their effects on the climate- such as this paper from 1980 suggests:
http://tinyurl.com/dmo6bt
and this one from 1997:
http://tinyurl.com/cwhkyn
and 2000:
http://tinyurl.com/66qouz
However, that is in no way an indication that the trails were deliberately put there…much less “sprayed”…
…and thus, as Uncinus so politely put it….what is your point?
The final word is, in fact, testable, repeatable, provable science…
Greetings,
I’ll reply to both here, thank you for your replies.
Of course the trails are deliberately put there; someone controls an aircraft, it soars, and leaves a wake of haze that obliterates an otherwise beautiful blue sky. Who, what and why remains speculation by all, including those who are directly involved with the aircraft. The degree of understanding is likely understood well by very few.
The construct referenced is simply this endless “science, science, science” posturing that, like many unfortunate scientists, seems to omit the historical revelations of scientific achievements. Meaning simply that history proves that the revelations of science have been progressive, and for some reason many professors and or scientists seem to position themselves under a pretense that we are at some sort of plateau. Obviously there is much yet to learn, and it may be in fact that the human species has limits to what can be understood. Seems self-evident yet I’m often hearing professors and scientists using phrases like “can’t” and “impossible” when scientific thinking should construct phrases with “seem” or “probable”. To do otherwise suggests unfamiliarity with scientific “thinking” and perhaps points to some sort of personal issues.
Besides the time and efforts you both put into this site, your asserted “hobby”, it seems to me that this is more an intellectual exercise for you both. Un being the obvious stronger of the two and SR14, question for you please: what is it you find objectionable about being polite? Did you take my post as some sort of challenge and therefore equate that with an insult? If so, please accept my apology. It’s true that it does somewhat peeve me at times when encountering pseudo-scientific posturing through definitive declarations when it’s obvious that long term effects of such weather modifications would be unknown. And because of this peeve sometimes I come across a bit harsh, and excuses are lame but for the life of me I can’t figure out how anyone who champions science can make concrete definitive declarations about a subject that has not been concretely defined. Which seems to be what you two have been doing for what appears to be most of this thread if not all. Especially SR, no offense man, but most of your posts sound like cheer leading. Go Neeb High! Maybe work on that, politeness always seems worthy.
Anyway, the simple introductory post was stating the fact that whatever these things are, they are changing the weather, at the very least. This alone should raise a red flag for any thinking mind. Trying to calm the populace by dismissing these occurrences as hogwash and or advocating dismissal is downright rude, and unscientific. Period.
Another point I’d like to add is; knowing how some of our species are entirely delusional and let’s not mince words, stupid, it would make sense to many that if there were some sort of problem threatening our species or life in general on this planet, that it seems to make sense that the information should have to be controlled simply to avert the destruction some of these stupid people would undoubtedly inflict upon each other. Concrete worshiping of one’s own ineffable infallibility to discern fact from fiction sure does cause a bunch of trouble.
What I was attempting to communicate with the latter part of my first post is simply that there is a hierarchy that exists in the animal kingdom and so within our species. Consciousness itself is not yet understood by any science, yet there are functional and practical methods of manipulating it and if you know anything about this branch of science you know that the mind under the influence of post hypnotic suggestion is fully capable of reasoning why it may or may not be doing a particular thing. All the while completely, and utterly, unaware of the real motivation behind their actions.
Disclaimer: I’m sometimes an idiot. But I’ve at least figured out to be kind to animals and certainly not support tyranny or violence. What can I say, I’m optimistic.
Gentlemen, thank you again for your replies.
ijostl
But then you said that if we agreed with you (that contrails change the weather), then we were somehow being evasive? So my question would be: Has anyone EVER denied that contrails have an effect on the weather?
I know I have not. No have scientists. Nor has anyone, a quick Google search will confirm this:
http://www.google.com/search?q=contrails+effect+on+the+weather
So, while your theories regarding hierarchy are interesting, that’s not really what we are discussing here. What is your point regarding contrails?
J-
The trails are not deliberate. They are an unintended consequence of air travel.
Who, what and Why is not open to speculation as the flights are known, who is flying is known and why; travel- is known…
Moreover, the science is not “pseudo”. The laws of physics define and explain the behavior of the trails formation and persistence.
If you disagree, please expound.
Nobody has said these “occurrences” are “hogwash” – only that they are not evidence of global, clandestine “spraying” operation of unknown origin and intent.
Again- nobody is (or at least I am not) saying that there are not possible climactic effects of persistent contrails…as previously shown, a lot of scientists are studying just that. However, their effects are not fully understood- some blocking of sunlight, some trapping of heat…the results are inconclusive…and thus, you are correct, no definitive declarations about the possible long term effects of persistent contrails on the weather can be made.
However, definitive declarations CAN be made about the formation, persistence and spreading of contrails as a result of benign intent air travel.
Obviously, science is progressive as you suggest and built upon the findings of others. That is why the last 40 years of atmospheric science regarding contrails is so strong in its evidence that contrails that persist and spread are a known result of air travel and thus that visible sighting of a persistent trail is not necessarily evidence of a global “spraying” operation.
I did not state objection to Uncinus’ politeness. I was merely being more direct. Feel free to point out any instance where I was, in fact, impolite…and of course, try to do it without the ad hominem attacks- neeb high indeed.
Moreover, speculating as to my motive (or others), critiquing the writing style and waxing loquaciously about the relative intelligence of our species and the hierarchy therein is really a pseudo-intellectual attempt at redirecting the discussion away from the topic at hand. Contrails.
Definitive declaration: Contrails, as a result of “normal” air travel (of which there is a great deal in this country and elsewhere) can persist and spread and cover…er…”obliterate” the sky in a haze of man-made cirrus clouds…and thus, seeing one is not prima facie evidence of a “spraying” campaign.
Its really quite simple.
Heavy spraying here today.. huge “X” es in the sky.. and lanes running from horizon to horizon. No way.. contrails.
Meanwhile I checked around for more info and was told, that this is a “classified” happening, and no matter what anyone does, we will never find out who’s doing it or why.
This much I do know: It’s nothing good ! But that’s all I know.
The sheeple have no need to know.
I have done my part and am still doing it. I call people’s attention to it, where ever I am and can. But this seems to be all anyone can do.
Addie…
Why can’t they be contrails?
Who did you “check” with?
LOL!
uhem…
Gentlemen, the simple point that seems to have thus far eluded you is that by presenting through your arguments and rebuttals, pointing to other people’s research, that it appears you have reduced your arguments to a matter of your personal faith. Which was why I was pointing out the relationship to fanaticism earlier on.
Because no matter what you write, or which links you provide, there is absolutely no way either of you could possibly give any definitive answer on the subject without providing your very own research and offering the results coupled with your opinions on the matter.
That would be scientific. Not this ludicrous posturing that by providing other people’s research and offering your faith and wit that somehow seals the deal.
Now if you were to examine multiple instances of this phenomenon and present your own detailed analysis and the results thereof, perhaps not only would your readers listen to what you have to offer, but they may actually HEAR it. Are we trying to understand something or are we, like most of human history, attempting to backup preexisting conclusions?
SR, the loathing and anger in your tone is self-evident, thus suggesting that this is not about investigating a particular phenomenon but rather something perhaps personal. This does not lend credibility to your assertion of advocating science.
Yet if you are actually interested in attempting to gain some sort of understanding, since by claiming that every report is “normal air travel” you assert that you have full knowledge of every flight in this country, perhaps you can provide us with the next month’s daily flight plans over Portland Oregon and through diligent observation and record keeping, we could at least check to see if your master commander’s list of the Portland area flight plan matches what is actually overhead?
By the way, how is it that you happen to know every flight plan in The United States of America let alone the world? I would think at least some flight plans would be unavailable to common citizens.
Which of course you can’t, because you don’t have this master commander’s list of flight plans, which means that you couldn’t possibly claim every flight is “normal air traffic” without sounding like a fanatic.
Gentlemen, thank you for the intellectual exercise. I must continue to warn you that I am and admitted idiot, and yet it often baffles me that such illustrious men such as yourselves are often found making proclamations that appear to be completely silly. My humble advice is to reformulate your assertions to omit making proxy declarations such as the “all normal air traffic” error.
Best wishes to you and your loved ones.
ijostl
for Addie
Dear Sister,
How does it do anyone any good whatsoever to dehumanize our fellow citizens by using the term “sheeple”? Of course it does nothing good and more likely the opposite.
Please do consider omitting using this term or better yet even thinking in this vein; for in my opinion the best thing we can do is work towards bettering ourselves. We are all flesh and blood and thus animal by nature. Unless and until we are something more, which in the realm of infinity seems entirely possible is it not is it not?
Thank you,
ijostl
You raise a straw man argument, ijostl. Nobody has claimed any such thing. At most it has been claimed that the contrail patterns are consistent with normal air traffic. Which indeed they are. Very strong sources of data have been given for this – particularly the timetables of flights from sites such as Expedia (which also you give a rough estimate of the number of flights between cities, and hence over certain areas), and then also the web site flightaware, which provides real-time tracking of flights over just about any area.
http://www.expedia.com/default.asp
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KLAX
Now, of course this does not account for ALL aircraft, and nobody says that it does. However, it does give a very good representation of the planes in the air. Of course there are other planes as well – for a start there is no such thing as a “master flight plan” – as flight plans change constantly, and do not always represent the final tracks of the aircraft. There are also military and private planes that do not report their flight plans.
Just as I cannot claim with absolute confidence that every person I meet is a human being, I cannot also claim that every contrail is a “normal” contrail. I can however state with total confidence that they certainly appear to be normal contrails, and there is nothing to suggest they are not.
Now, perhaps you could be more specific in what exactly you believe, and what evidence you have to back it up? And further, if you wish to accuse someone of error, then perhaps you should quote their error, rather than making up an exaggerated representation of their position.
Jostl…
indeed- I did make a generalization about flight plans- for that I am duly sorry…and yet the vast majority of flight plans are freely available…
Moreover, the fact that a flight plan is not available is not -in and of itself, evidence that the contrail is somehow part of a clandestine “spraying” operation.
…and yes, I have not sampled a contrail myself…and thus, I am running on faith…faith in the scientific process…faith that the 100s of scientists who HAVE sampled contrails, studied the physics of their formation and persistence- presented their findings for their peers and others to critique and repeat and indeed repeated the findings of others, tested hypothesis’ and tested others’ hypothesis’ and built up an accumulated knowledge base over time…I have faith in that process. Do you?
…and yet, I *have* observed many multiple examples of the phenomena and determined that the aircraft from which the persistent contrails emanated appeared to be “normal” commercial aircraft shuttling their passengers to and fro…Is that definitive? No- without observing the craft closely I cannot determine if it was disguised to look like a commercial aircraft but it correlates with what others have observed and the available data. …and thus, your point about my declarations being solely based on other’s peoples research is, in fact, inaccurate.
If you disagree with any of the findings of the atmospheric scientists who have labored toward these conclusions then I suggest you present your research and findings for us all to review.
Moreover, I implore you to find any “chemtrail” believer who, in fact, has done any research comparable to the body of knowledge presented on contrail behavior. Talk about “faith”. Does the same dialectic also apply to the them?
Indeed, to suggest that one cannot glean any merit from scientific data unless the research is done personally is seemingly outlandish and renders your credibility highly suspect.
If I came across as loathing you or angry in any way…I sincerely and humbly apologize. Perhaps I was irritated at being accused of supposed lack of politeness, all the while having my motives questioned, being the subject of ad hominem attacks, being lectured to under the guise of the pseudo intellectual and all together ridiculous argument that none of my assertions based on available scientific data mean anything because I did not do the research myself.
…again, my apologies
How do I know these things are ” sprayed” into the air?
Is my 20/20 vision good enough? I see it all the time, yes: spraying.
Then, curving around, crossing their own trails, making Xes etc etc.
Finally it all broadens and covers the sky completely. This is what I see, and I don’t need science for this.
With ” sheeple ” I mean people who never question anything, and even though things are ongoing right over their heads, they don’t see a thing, worse yet, they don’t want to see anything, it just might crowd their comfortzone.It’s ” sheeple”, who don’t stand up for what is fair, right and moral. ( Yes I know that even morals are relative )
But we do have laws. And no one tells us who is paying for all those things, many would not agree with, and lastly : Those who only care about themselves, never mind someone elses pain.
Lest I stray from the subject, I want to say something here.
Uncinus has been incredibly patient and kind to me, even though we disagree. I so appreciate this.
If nothing else, this blog has been interesting to me.. and I thank everyone who has bothered to listen to me whine about those chemtrails, I am scared, and maybe I will have to ignore them in the future, if I don’t want my BP to go thru the roof.
Thanx again Uni…. and a few others
Uncinus, I lost your e mail, I wanted u to please google:
“Systematische Zerstoerung der irdischen Naturgrundlage”
This I understand better, and it is very interesting, even though not in English, u will get the gist of it.
It is what my friends sent me.
SR1419-What is your professional background?-if you don’t mind me askin. Your spelling and punctuation is perfect,…you may even be able to challenge JazzRoc.
Addie, I think what you are seeing are contrails.
Could you explain the visual difference between a contrail and a chemtrail, because what you describe sounds just like contrails. Is the difference purely in the way the jets fly? If so, then how can you tell they are spraying? Have you ever tried to identify the planes with FlightAware?
Unci, the differences are : contrails: stripes , straight.. that vanish w.in minutes.
Chems: billowing puffy lanes that cross eachother, spread out, cover the sky, HUGE diff.
When I can see the craft…. the trails come out of the back, usually 2 lanes. parallel to eachother. Then plane returns.. crosses it’s own path.. to do it all over again. Contrails do not do either.
Best I can do Unci. One more thing, Chems: planes make puffy, billowy things, that imitate clouds.. then they stop, and resume a bit down the path.. stop again, then resume. This sorta looks like clouds but it’s not ! Usually those Puffs.. look like spiderwebs.
It’s always done when a rainstorm comes in.. right in front of the storm.. results as far as I noticed.. instead of the good downpour we need.. we get sprinkled only.
We are told water will become rationed and expensive.. need I say more ? ( Big Money, Companies… pharmaceuticals profiting ?)
Addie, you are just describing two different types of contrails.
How exactly do you think you know that planes don’t make contrails like this? Did you read it somewhere?
Addie, it seems you have discounted my advice in favor of some excuse to justify your use of dehumanizing common folks by employing this term. Teenagers seem to do this often and come up with any reason to disregard the criticism or advice and offer their “reason” or excuse as I call it to justify the behavior. Perhaps some meditation where you stand with your nose in the corner for an hour or two might help you calm down and think what it was I was suggesting for your benefit as well as your neighbors. Just kidding
about the standing in the corner, don’t freak out. Yet it might help, dunno.
Gentlemen, you have both been very kind with your replies and I want to thank you both for taking the time to reply to my posts.
First I’ll address your questions about what I believe: I believe that there are many things going on which I and many others don’t have any knowledge of. And I am aware of how there exists circles within circles and in any organization there are degrees of understanding and shared information.
Yesterday in Portland it started out fully overcast and later in the afternoon the clouds broke up and we were left with patchy cumulus clouds and a gorgeous deep blue sky and bright sunshine. Days like these put the love in my love/hate relationship with Oregon; Winters are cold and wet and that’s the other side. Air traffic yesterday was less and those had seemingly normal contrails that dissipated shortly behind the aircraft.
More importantly, Uncinus – regarding your remark “claim with absolute confidence“, this is what I tell folks with similar considerations: First, that there is no proof that human beings are native to this planet, and second that when we take advantage of other animals such as cows, chickens, pigs, buffalo, etc., we embrace the exact same line of tyranny that we would wish to avoid if we were in such a position. Consider the cow, if translated to a language we could understand we would hear something like all I want to do is eat some grass, why are these human beings doing this evil against us? So in that vein alone unless we treated other species with kindness and benevolence how could we expect any class to treat us any better? I think the best course is to at least try to be something better than this, even omitting the fact that we sweat through our pores, have long intestinal tracts and flat teeth, it just makes sense we should treat other species on this planet with all the respect we would want to be treated with.
Are you and SR vegans or vegetarians?
I’m sorry, ijostl, but I’d prefer to keep the comments section constrained to the discussions of contrails. So if you’d like to discuss that then feel free. But I’m not interested in veganism.
Why do you think that normal contrails dissipate quickly? Science, and observation, seem to indicate otherwise.
jostls, I am calm, don’t meditate.. don’t need your help, did not dehumanize anyone, and am standing behind everything I say.And indeed, I discounted your ” advice “, cause I have no need 4 it.If I would take your ” advice” I would act like a typical Sheeple, and u know how I feel about those .
Unci…
The only thing I can say is, that contrails don’t cross their own path, with the same plane flying thru the ” lane” he just made.
Passengers would get upset, if their plane would fly in circles ;o)
Did not know how to express myself any better.
I’m sorry to hear that you have not yet figured out this related and very important issue of stepping out of the long line of tyranny with respect towards other Earth dwellers.
Good luck and thank you for your time.
ijostl
Yes, contrails do cross their own path, if the plane crosses its path. If a plane flys in a circle, then it will make a circular contrail. Like this:
http://contrailscience.com/voodoo-contrails-over-los-angeles/
You live out in the desert. Maybe what you are seeing are just military pilot practicing maneuvers?
Actually using the term “sheeple” *is* a dehumanizing term for it reduces those you cast your venom towards as something less than you. In my opinion it’s an illness that has been rampant in our species for a long time, this name calling done in order to make the person casting the remarks feel better about themselves (sort of like the church goer who secretly hopes for something bad to happen to someone they loathe for the sole purpose of saying “I told you so!”).
If you took my advice to omit using the derogatory comments towards your fellow human beings this would in fact produce the opposite effect since a common beef-wit does the same sort of name calling. Thus, in my opinion you end up just as those you cast your remarks towards, there seems no difference whatsoever.
What appears exemplified by your unwillingness or incapacity to consider sound advice, seems that you are more interested in your personal stress and perhaps in the large scale of things may deserve what you get, dunno. Sort of like the vegan issue, if aliens decided you were their property, what argument could you put up for not being used like cattle, or sheeple if you prefer? Understand? I somehow doubt it.
Regards,
ijostl
ok Uncinus, I give up.
You either refuse to ” see”, or you see it all yourself and are looking for a reason, any reason…. to have it not be true, because you are as baffled and scared of the whole phenomena as the rest of us are.
But this ” discussion” is over, as far as I am concerned, because it has become utter “talking in circles”. Let me know, if or when u make a new blog, w. a diff subject.. ok?
Then, if u want me to, I’ll be back !
When I recently moved to a home in a town with 100,000 people living in it I was dismayed to learn the airport was 25 minutes away. This large power company is now putting up 45 foot tall poles about 20 feet behind my home. I can see the highway behind the nature preserve next to my home. I usually hear an airplane about every 10-15 min. I later realized the large amounts of airplanes flying over my home was caused by a city 25 miles from my home. I later developed an unexplained coughing and a great amout of headaches. I think it might have to do with contrails.
Addie, please check this out. Most of what you are describing are contrails, and this website has pictures of them forming. Contrails that “haze out the sky 24/7″ and can “create clouds over 20,000 kilometers”
http://artificialclouds.com/
contrails can grow to HUGE sizes due to pressure and the saturation point of the atmosphere. Some die out in minutes and some can persist for weeks. I wouldn’t call this normal due to the impacts on climate change though
“scientists” on this board don’t listen to Science either
The weather alterations appear a secondary consideration.
The “fight global warming” sub-propaganda doesn’t make sense.
Nope.
Something else going on here…
Such as? And by what evidence exactly?
“Actually using the term “sheeple” *is* a dehumanizing term for it reduces those you cast your venom towards as something less than you. In my opinion it’s an illness that has been rampant in our species for a long time, this name calling done in order to make the person casting the remarks feel better about themselves (sort of like the church goer who secretly hopes for something bad to happen to someone they loathe for the sole purpose of saying “I told you so!”). ”
I have always thought that the term was derogatory to sheep. What have they ever done against anyone? They just eat grass, grow wool, go baaaa, and make more sheep. (Don’t do mutton, and don’t eat baby animals, I am a spinner and a knitter)
I have also always thought that the people throwing that term around are the actual blind followers. There is evidence, test results, scientific method, scientific “law”, common sense, and clear thinking in NOT believing in chemtrails. There has been absolutely zero irrefutable evidence for chemtrails, just words, supposition, speculation, and ignorance. Whoever first thought up the theory just found the right audience.
Okay, back to the matter wholly. I haven’t seen this applet anywhere on the site. I probably just missed it.
This link will take you to an interactive model of contrail production based on temp and RH. You move the red dot on the graph, hit the “fly” button at the top and the plane will fly producing the “right” contrail for those factors. It’s very cool, very visual, very clear….which means CT probably will find fault, but hey, we can still try. I’m getting sick of people insisting what a contrail can and cannot do. Now if only everyone could be trained to more accurately gauge altitude and distance from ground level, life would be easier, people could once again enjoy the wonder of clouds, and the EPA, NASA, and any other government agency barraged by CT questions could spend their time and our money really doing something important.
http://profhorn.aos.wisc.edu/wxwise/AckermanKnox/chap15/contrail_applet.html
The only science I’ve seen being ignored is the science being presented by people like Uncinus. Hopefully that’s what you’re referencing.
Which weather alterations would these be? The way in which persisting, spreading contrails may escalate global warming?
Suntour,
For one skilled in the art of argument ANY argument can be won.
The simple fact is that air traffic is irregular and there is unarguable evidence that at the very least weather is affected by some air traffic.
For example, here in Oregon, we have Spring days that are bright and blue, and what appears to be normal air traffic is seen overhead with what appear to be normal contrails that dissipate quickly behind the aircraft.
On other days, there are dozens of clear patterns laid out that in parallel which do not dissipate but spread to cover the entire sky as far as can be seen. As they spread and cover the sky they form cloud cover that sometimes, like yesterday turn into rain.
All the sock puppets on this board as well as others in denial can continue to promote the idea that this is all just “normal” but clearly anyone who witnesses these events can see what appears to be deliberate cloud seeding at best. And since this is not reported publicly by definition it is clandestine.
The problem with deceit in my opinion is that it creates more and more deceit as well as suspicion and paranoia.
I realize this simple report is going to be pooh-poohed with evidence of this and that, but the fact remains that when the patterns are laid out, the blue sky is completely obliterated and instead we’re left with either a hazy sky or rain – all directly from this “normal” air traffic.
Why anyone ignores this obvious effect and continues to shout that it’s all well and good is another question.
Folks, it is not my intention to promote paranoia or even suggest that the rulers of this planet have bad intent, but rather to propose that people consider that deceit itself, in this day and age of such profound technological challenges facing our species, is a poor method from the outset.
Thank you,
ijostl
Regarding the term referenced above; personally I don’t have a problem with any people that are sometimes referred to derogatorily as “sheeple”, it simply seems to suggest people who trust others and do what is expected of them and are basically non-violent, somewhat like children one may suppose. So in that light what some might hope for would be shepherds with integrity, dignity, wisdom and kindness. Because without kindness all the wisdom in Universe seems pointless.
ijostl
Nobody is denying that contrails sometimes persist for a long time, and that they sometimes spread out to cover the sky. Nobody has EVER denied this. In fact, we’ve talked out it a great length, as have people for decades. Like in 1944:
See, at the top of the second column, his description is just like yours.
What I don’t understand is why you think it’s deliberate, rather than a natural byproduct of air-travel.
In my very first post I noted that the obvious rebuttal would be to agree that the weather is affected, and so it has been used now at least twice. It’s certainly not “normal”, and should be a concern to any person intending to live on this planet, simply because we do not understand the long term effects of such weather modification.
The deliberateness is suggested by the irregular traffic and the patterns set forth. A layman could take notes on the patterns and offer them here for review but you will not find myself offering these notes simply because I’m not interested enough to do so. And that is because since this is all outside my control and also because I simply have better usage for what time I may have left here.
I suppose my main objective in posting here was to test your responses.
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your time.
ijostl
So you have no interest in a scientific discussion then? You just want to make some vague points, and then leave?
The traffic patterns that have described are all perfectly explainable with very little thought. Yet you seem rather suspicious of explanations.
My apologies if that’s how I came across. It’s not that I’m uninterested in scientific discussion but rather skeptical of the seemingly unscientific sentence structuring found in many of your replies.
For example the statement by SR1419 about “all normal air traffic” when a common citizen couldn’t possibly know all air traffic and your statement above that the traffic references above are “all perfectly explainable” when in fact no definitive patterns have been presented other than a casual reference to the patterns.
So your answer appears as uninterested in the patterns themselves but rather attempting to lump every event into a pre-conceived conclusion; for how could you know what the patterns mentioned are unless you were to examine them yourself? See? I was at first under the impression that you might actually be interested in what appears to be occurring rather than dismissing all accounts as “normal” and “not to worry” type events. The general blanket statements here don’t seem to make sense except as faith based positions.
Never the less, I appreciate your diligence here and wish you the best regards.
Thank you very much,
ijostl
It’s really much simpler than you suggest.
There is a lot of air traffic, that cannot be argued with.
This air traffic is most between major cities.
These cities are all over the US
Hence the resultant traffic pattern in basically a grid.
So, what exactly are you saying is odd? The above image is a plot of all the traffic for one day. Hence we DO KNOW the traffic for a day. So we can say with a HUGE degree of confidence that grids of contrails are likely to form.
If you like, you can very easily track every single plane in real time as well. You can match contrail to plane. It’s really very easy. The observations match the data. Can you point out where they do not?
Dear Uncinus,
Rather than leave here with what may appear a smarmy or disrespectful demeanor please allow me to summarize my visit to this site:
When I first arrived here I was looking for information regarding the vast amount of air traffic effects and perhaps info on at least the weather affecting issue. After reading through the posts, it seemed to me that if this site was intended to respect science as is noted predominantly throughout the board and the results of your investigations show that this traffic appears normal then the reasonable tone throughout should be to notify the public that the massive amount of air traffic is causing what should be considered alarmingly weather changes. One would think that scientist would be advocating that the general population needs to be aware of this and advocate traveling by air as little as possible since we don’t know what the long term effects would be. That is what I would expect from scientists acknowledging the affect on the weather.
Instead, it seems that instead of advocating public responsibility in traveling less the tone throughout the board appears to be dismissing concern in general.
Hence my addition of comments about levels of awareness of any given role. Meaning no matter what the rank, very, very few probably know what is really going on.
Let me now thank you humbly for allowing me to post on your site and also for your kind and thoughtful replies. I am but a layman farmer type with the majority of my ancestors undoubtedly illiterate, and I am also without doubt sometimes a giant fool.
If it is ok with you, I shall continue to visit this site sometimes and with your permission may even chime in again on this board. Yet if you feel my contributions will not add value and prefer I no longer post I will humbly comply. If you do give me permission to post again I shall do so sparingly and will attempt to offer more respect than my layman’s mind has thus far been able to muster.
Thank you again very much,
ijostl
Feel free to post. I’m happy to discuss all points of view regarding contrails.
Regarding the effects of air travel, one might also bring the same arguments to car travel, or any other carbon emitting activity. Contrails have an obvious visual effect, but their practical effect on temperature and weather is not really clear at this point. It certainly does not seem to be alarming, especially as the effects last only a few hours, compared with the effects of carbon emissions which last for decades. There is a LOT of discussion about contrails’ effect on the climate (and there has been for decades), but one might be better focussed on reducing other, more obviously harmful, forms of pollution first.
Some reading on the subject
http://www.google.com/search?q=contrails+climate+change
This doesn’t apply to scientific arguments at all.
The simple fact is the converse of that.
That we can agree on.
And that is natural (once contrails are created). Your ignorance leads you to believe otherwise. Educate yourself.
Your ignorance now leads you into mindless insult.
Anyone who doesn’t understand the science of the atmosphere does this.
I suggest to you that it is deceitful of you to pronounce on scientific matters when you are too ill-informed to be of any use.
Yes. The traffic creates water in the skies. It will consequently appear in later scenarios.
Well – water IS well and good. What’s YOUR question?
Yes. So educate yourself and quit slandering those that understand what is happening.
ijostl,
What they are working on instead is perhaps changing flight plans around sites with “contrail outbreaks”, which is what you described is called. It’s been much studied, in length, peer-reviewed, multidisciplined, and published. There is much to read about the subject, and it’s fairly easy to find. Google “persistence in contrails”. Here’s a link that covers quite a lot of your concerns:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-articles/read.main?id=85
So the matter is being addressed, but the verdict is still out. The newest weather guide I read contain a chapter about contrails with the general consensus that contrails block UV rays during the day, and reflect heat back toward earth at night, so the effects cancelled each other out. Sorry I can’t give you an exact source of that; I chose the guide with the most clouds and phenomena (ie. pictures, I’ll admit it), even though it was copyright 2006.
These Germans are obviously ill-informed, slanderous, fear-mongerers! How can so many weathermen be soooo ignorant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJibMsZutaA
Jakeability, that video is a deliberate mistranslation. The weatherman there is concerned about chaff. He’s on record as saying the “chemtrail” theory has no basis.
http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
I C
What do you think of this Battelle, ‘indirect, semi-direct aerosol campaign’.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AGUFM.A23A0274S
I think it’s great. What do you think?
Anyone who says that persistent contrails are normal is part of a coer up.
Demand a Congressional investigation!
Banger,
One of the reasons I pursue this topic in the name of science is just what you stated above. Our government agencies do not need to spend money going after an imaginery conspiracy. Every time I see “call your congressman” or similar other entity, I fume (if flying at altitude, large plumes would be seen coming out my ears). You can’t prove chemtrails exist because they don’t. There will always be people who will believe what they want, no matter how much information and fact is laid out before them. Your first comment shows you are one of those.
Look for proof, with actual hard facts. Look at the extent such a conspiracy would need, in people, money, and equipment. Expect answers to questions, and expect those answers to be the same, no matter who is doing the testing (this is called repeatability, and is a hallmark of proper science investigation). All of this is out there on the web. If you don’t take the time and effort involved, you will never be happy with anything presented, no matter the source. Why spend money we don’t have?
I’m open minded in this debate. My main query is; why is it that when i was younger (between 1985-2000), i did not witness ANY sustained contrails like i see today? I used to watch planes all the time and these are the same QANTAS jets they fly today (largely a 15 year old fleet).
Furthermore, when i called the Bureau of Meteorology in my state and queried them on it; the gentleman said that the planes leaving trails were part of a science experiment tied in with Flinders University and the ARM Project (Atmospheric Radiation Measurement). All the info he provided matched the ARM’s website info. These were commerical planes.
When you add to this the scientists who are skeptical, the data collected on barium levels etc and official government documents regarding weather modification then there is a strong case for the existance of chemtrails or at the very least, we cannot discount the potential existance of chemtrails.
P.S. Obama spends money we don’t have i.e. banker bailouts bills, military etc.
Also, in science there needs to be some sort of consensus, or a peer review of some sort. In the case of chemtrails, as with global warming; then there would be neither. Again i am open minded to chemtrails/contrails, but the information i have been given (my encounter with the Bureau official and government documents etc lead me to be somewhat leaning towards the existance of chemtrails. And trust me, i don’t want to believe it. On the global warming debate however – that is an obvious fraud – but i’ll leave that one to another forum.
Thanks
And one last comment. Scientists have a habit of being too narrow-minded in the sense that they fail to look outside the square, at the political and historical aspect (but i can’t blame them, it’s not their field of expertise, but it is the duty of humans to be critical of governments). The truth of the matter is we need to question things. Governments have a long history of lies and deception and performing biological experiments on people – much of which is declassified. You can also checkout the United States Code Title 50: War and National Defence – Chapter 32 Chemical and Biological Warfare (very disturbing). This is the tip of the iceberg. History repeats unless we learn from it!
“The difference between complete idiot scientists and intelligent scientists is that idiots are not willing to abandon their existing dogmatic beliefs when faced with new, contradictory evidence. Intelligent people, on the other hand, adapt and evolve their ideas when faced with new information or evidence.”
Consider how many days of they year before 2000 you watched jets. Then consider how many days of the year that contrails form (have you kept a record of a whole year?). A memory of watching planes for a few days might extend in your memory.
Contrails are rarely observed in Australia, because of the sparse population, there are very few air routes over populated areas (they go BETWEEN populated areas, not over them). Do you live in the same town? If you lived closer to a city, then the planes would have been lower, and left fewer trails.
I’m not sure what your point is about ARM. I suspect that in your describing the contrails you made them sound rather unusual, so the Bureau guy though it might be th ARM planes, which probably fly in unusual patterns at contrail altitude. But it may well have been that you were just describing contrails from Quantas jets that seemed unusual to you, but actually were not.
Regarding 50 USC Ch 32, I suspect you are referring to the section on testing on civilians. The theorists like to quote a decade old version of this that seemed to allow for secret testing on civilian population (the old 1520). This was repealed in 1996, and now specifically prohibits testing without informed consent. See 50 USC Sec. 1520a
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001520—a000-.html
I’m sorry, but the mainstream media i.e. Associated Press along with government websites are admitting that governments have been spraying atmosphere altering particulates/aerosols in the air for years (since 1996). It’s a bit hard to debunk the governments own admissions, when also backed by the declassified history of the governments involvement in biological/chemical experiments etc. The government has no credibility, thus it does not matter that they ‘repealed’ 1520, which i was aware of. You also have the former German parliamentarian Monika Griefahn conceding they do exist. Furthermore, there are scientists convinced that there were aerosol spraying campaigns. So there is no scientific/peer consensus on this matter, which further rings alarm bells – much like the man-made global warming debate.
As for ARM, i did research on them and obtained literature from their websites prior to them taking it down discussing aerosol campaigns designed to alter the atmosphere and seed clouds (‘m trying to locate that file). Oh, and they were not ARM planes, they were Qantas – easy to tell by the red rear/tail wing area.
In regards to your “contrails rarely observed in Australia” point, i travel all over Australia regularly for my work, both to cities and rural areas. Short contrails are very common, just as are persistant trails/chemtrails/aerosols…whatever you want to name them. On the same day there’s a huge mix often within minutes and at similar altitudes. I have gigs of footage. And planes here definately fly over cities too – at least mine – and leave chemtrails/persistant trails.
With all due respect, your points aren’t convincing me. It’s hard to deny governments own admissions!
http://www.congresscheck.com/tag/terraforming/
**So my point is that we cannot deny the existance of aerosol programs/chemtrails/persistant trails. There is TOO much evidence that at the VERY LEAST, even to a skeptic, would be seen as pushing coincidence a little too far. Add to that the people all-over the world (millions) who believe in these trails, many of whom are scientists and the fact that there are so many chemtrail debunkers allocating alot of time and energy trying to debunk this issue, only gives further credence to the “chemtrail/aerosol” argument.
Chemtrail spraying has now been acknowledged by the U.S. Air Force and the FAA, and was proposed to be banned in Senate Resolution HR 2977, sponsored by Congressman Kucinich, where it is named as an “exotic atmospheric weapons system.” Later versions of the bill had references to chemtrails deleted. The coverup continues.
Kucinich did not write that bill, and when he found out what was on it, he removed it. It was written by UFO enthusiasts, see:
http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and-hr-2977/
Perhaps, instead of posting the interpretations of a conspiracy minded web site, you could post the actual evidence? That article you quote from is conflating two totally separate things – a program to measure the effects of aerosols, and research into what we MIGHT do in the future. Perhaps you can explain how you get from that to saying that there’s a secret program of spraying (which, although secret, is done in plain sight of millions of scientists who have not noticed it), that has been going on since the 1990’s?
Since the 1920’s actually. It’s called cloud seeding, and is not a secret. It also looks nothing like contrails. But perhaps I misunderstand you – could you supply a link to what you are referring?
And did these biological/chemical experiments look like contrails? Did they perform thousands of them every day for ten years? Besides, I thought you said chemtrails were for altering the weather? Do you have a link to this “admission”?
If they have no credibility, then why are you basing your arguments on government documents?
Is she not part of the government? Do you have the full text of her letter? I see nothing about contrails, only “Instead of making a concerted and determined effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions throughout the world, experiments of various kinds are being carried out in the earth’s atmosphere in order to cure the symptoms“, which could mean anything from carbon trading to giant mirrors in space.
Which scientists are those? Did they write any papers on the matter? There have been MANY papers written and published that throw doubt on the nature of anothropogenic climate change. So where are the papers that support chemtrails? Perhaps you could link a few?
I am now convinced of several things (and this is contructive criticism). Mainly that a) You do not know your history b) You are not informed regarding government policy c) You cannot debunk my points d) You are not willing to find sources yourself or attempt to look for them as any ‘reasonable’ person would do so in your situation (i have given you enough info for you to google the info yourself) e) You do not understand the psychology of governments (they deny then admit = lack credibility) f) You lack the ability to think laterally i.e. connect the dots g) You probably work for the government in some way shape or form OR are brain-washed by y