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Chemtrail Myths

Some people believe that the government is spraying something into the air, and this creates unsual looking contrails. They call these “chemtrails”. Now, there is no real evidence that “chemtrails” are real, but there are several myths on the internet about “chemtrails”. All these myths can very easily be shown to be false, and I’ve gathered the most popular myths here as a little time-saver for the person who has encountered “chemtrails” for the first time.

Myth #1Normal contrails don’t last very long, but “chemtrails” last for hours and sometimes spread out.

False – Contrails fade away, or persist, or even spread out to cover the sky, depending on the weather conditions. you can confirm this by looking in an encyclopedia. such as the Encyclopædia Britannica

[Contrails] may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.

For more info on this myth, read “Persisting and Spreading contrails

Myth #2 Contrails have been observed to persist and spread when the humidity was too low, so they must be “chemtrails”

2004chambersgraph.gifFalse – Nobody has ever measured low humidity within a persisting contrail. The fact is it is very difficult to measure humidity in a specific region at a specific altitude, at a given time, the best you can do is make a rough prediction. Measurements are made by weather balloons at just a few stations that average 235 miles apart, at 12 hour intervals, and then local predictions are extrapolated from this. The weather balloons can drift as much as 100 miles in their ascent, so you never know where the measurements are coming from. Humidity can vary by as much as 80% in a 12 hour period, and vary by similar amount over just a few miles. The fact that the contrail is spreading is actually a far more accurate indicator of high humidity than the available humidity predictions. NASAs own experiments (right) show persisting contrails over a large range of calculated humidities, even down to 10%.

Myth #3 – Long lasting contrails have appeared in “parallel lines”, “grid” and “X” formations, which are not normal, so must be “chemtrails.

False. Well, the last bit is false. Yes, contrails make all kinds of patterns in the sky, simply because there are a lot of planes flying overhead, and they fly in all directions. This is pretty much a function of where you live, and the prevailing winds. For example, if you live the Willamette Valley, Oregon, the overflying planes are nearly all North/South, so you’ll get parallel lines. If you live live in more central place, like North Texas, you’ll get planes flying overhead in every direction, so you will get “X” patterns (and “H” and “grids”). If there’s enough wind, and the trails last long enough, then the grid might spread out to cover the sky.

Myth #4 – A bill to ban chemtrails was introduced into congress by Dennis Kucinich, but quickly had chemtrails edited out.

False – HR 2977 was written by a bunch of UFO enthusiasts intent on exposing a conspiracy to suppress alien technology. Dennis Kucinich did not write the bill, he not know what chemtrails were, and when he found out, he distanced himself from that language. The bill was re-written in order that it might pass. See the full article: Kucinich, Chemtrails and HR 2977.

Myth #5 – Public Law 105-85 gives the military permission to experiment with chemical and biological weapons on humans, without their consent

False – 105-85, Sec. 1078, actually prevents experiments except for peaceful purposes, and those can only be performed if informed consent is obtained from each test subject. It’s basically the same procedure as for human drug trials.

SUMMARY

Those myths are really the basis of the “chemtrail” conspiracy theory. There is more, of course, like the halos and sun-dogs that you sometimes see (normal atmospheric optical effects), the dark lines (shadows of varying types), the stuff on the ground (unconnected). But these things really get to the heart of 99% of the chemtrail argument. After they are dispensed with, the theory holds about as much water as alien mind-control implants.

Let me know if you’ve got something else you’d like investigating, and I might add it here.
Just leave a comment below.

1,275 thoughts on “Chemtrail Myths

  1. Brewster says:

    Not suggesting a conspiracy at all, nor am I inviting sarcasm.
    So tone it down a bit, or stop moderating your site.

    Anyway, the ridiculous part is you speaking of aluminum benches.
    Obviously you misunderstood me, I said the shot was peculiar and I found this site by accident Google surfing.

    I am simply trying to learn and understand things. I figured this site would have some knowledge.
    I know nothing about aviation and it’s effects.

    I do know about editing and also a bit about teaching.
    And teachers shouldn’t be sarcastic. I am not.

    Anyhow I can see people get needlessly upset on this board so I’ll let it be.

  2. I was not being sarcastic. You said that the contrails should have been edited out because there was nothing refreshing about them. Hence you deduced that the shot was peculiar – your implication being that you though it was deliberate.

    Now this is a site that, in part, discusses the chemtrail conspiracy – so it’s hard to imagine you coming here to make these observation simply to highlight bad editing, or art direction.

    I simply disagreed with you, and I explained why.

  3. Brewster says:

    First off anything is easy to imagine, if you have an imagination.
    Second, Your remark about the aluminum benches was a subconscious reference to the “idea”
    some people have about aluminum particles being in the contrails.
    You mentioned it twice. Our subconscious minds work like that.
    You have probably spent too much time on this board.

    I came to this board completely neutral. I remain that way.
    My knowledge in editing simply made me wonder why they would leave that in.
    I wanted a knowledgeable opinion on contrails, after hearing people speak of the chemtrail theory.
    I have worked with small time editors,producers etc that would be overly particular about a shot like that.
    So therefore I could only wonder why a big time commercial wouldn’t want a perfect shot even more so.
    It Does not suggest that I believe in chemtrails,Peter cotton tail, or the Holy Grail.

  4. My reference to aluminum was quite deliberate. It’s an irrational fear people have some something that’s an ordinary part of our lives. Supposedly highly toxic, aluminum is the most abundant metallic element in the ground, it’s ever present in the dust in the air, we make bleachers out of it, we use it to hold soda and beer, which we then drink, we cook in it, we wrap food in foil made from it, my keyboard is made from it.

    Most people, obviously, don’t have a negative view of aluminum – hence it’s fine to include it in a shot. Most people don’t have a negative view of contrails either, hence that’s fine too.

    Why did they leave it in? Because it’s an awesome shot, it’s the shot the storyboard called for, the skies had contrails in that day, they only had one day to film it, and 99.9% of people don’t care about contrails.

  5. Brewster says:

    I have never given much thought to aluminum.
    Nor has anyone I know, except for a friend who used to do siding part-time.

    I’m sure it is a fine and dandy metal. I have no prejudice towards it.

    As for the shot, well…God Bless ’em.
    I would of preferred just a hint of sunshine and blue skies for a better effect,
    editing software would of taken care of that. Whatever…..

    If the 99.9% statistic is accurate, the other small percentage of that stat were
    a heavy influence for this site…one may suppose.

  6. 99.9% of 300 Million still leaves 3 Million people, so I’m probably overestimating there. Interest in contrails is fringe subject, just happens to be a hobby of mine.

    You got any questions about contrails?

  7. JazzRoc says:

    Brewster

    This seemed a bit odd to me. Commercials are carefully edited from hours and hours of tape, by a team of trained people. Why would they possibly leave in these giant shots of contrails? This is a kool-aid commercial.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GS53iEJWec

    Well, it WAS a kool-aid commercial.

    However this comes courtesy of “Cognitivedisonance” (sic) with the message “Friendly in your face FU. One finger salute @ 0:03
    From the people feeding you Kool-Aid. Pretty chemtrails and smiling faces.”

    Searching Google using “kool-aid” doesn’t bring it up in the first page.

    Searching Google using “kool-aid chemtrail” brings it up as the second item.

    I am not a conspiracy guy at all. I don’t believe any of that crap!

    I don’t believe you.

  8. Robo says:

    Hello. Im not a Chemtrail-believer but what is this?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXn4tVpgeHk
    Thanks

  9. JazzRoc says:

    Robo,

    the sky above you gets progressively colder and thinner with altitude, until it reaches the tropopause at about 26,000 feet. At the tropopause the air temperature is at its lowest for many miles – between MINUS 40 and MINUS 80 degrees C.

    The troposphere beneath the tropopause is unstable because the land beneath heats the air above it, which becoming less dense, “bubbles” upwards, forming thermals and cumulus clouds which visually demonstrate this instability. That’s easy to see.

    It then begins to get warmer (and of course thinner still) in what we call the stratosphere with altitude for tens of miles as the ultra-violet component of the solar radiation breaks down the oxygen of the air (O2) into ozone (O3). The higher you go in the stratosphere, the warmer it becomes.

    The stratosphere is stable. Cumulus-like clouds cannot form in it at all, for beneath it the air is colder and cannot be warmed by the solar UV which has been absorbed by the layers above it. It shares the properties of the air you find in an unventilated house fire (if you know a fireman, ask him) and naturally forms layers. “Stratum” is the Latin for “layer”.

    Stratospheric layers are transparent, ribbon-like, and float past each other at differing speeds, headings and humidities.

    The lone aircraft NOT leaving a trail is passing through a different layer from the others – either above it or below it – that’s NOT easy to see – which is of a much lower humidity, sufficient to dissolve the combustion water of its engines.

    Without an understanding of the atmosphere (the SCIENCE) it is obvious that one could easily jump to an incorrect conclusion here.

    But we now know the Earth is flat (counter-intuitive) and the Sun does NOT go round the Earth (counter-intuitive), so….. 🙂

  10. bab says:

    The third airplane ,that is not leaving trails ,its shining from the sun ,compared to the others ,so probably is nearest to the camera ,at lower altitude ,this must be a kind of formation of 3 military planes doing some practice scenario

  11. Ten98 says:

    Why woudln’t they leave footage of contrails in a kool aid commercial?

    Since there are so many planes over the US, contrails must be a fairly common sight whenever you look at the sky. You may as well ask why they do not remove the clouds too.

    Also since they are made by passenger jets, which contain people going on holiday, it gives the impression that Kool Aid is associated with holidays and fun. All in all I say leave them in!

    Uncinus: I love the work that you are doing, but find it sad that new people posting here do not read back the posts by chemtrail fanatics many months ago before posting. If they did they would see you have already answered their same stupid arguments back in May!

  12. nojustno says:

    its been over 6months since i left a reply on this site and nothings .changed good vid robo but no matter what you say sheeple dont wanna know ! i work outside all day everyday ,so i see whats happening in the skies and something is wrong! could it be to do with the haarp place in alaska bouncing radio or magnetic waves of the metals that to me are constently being sprayed above are heads ? is the latest pandemic (swineflu at the minute was avian ) just a biproduct of this spraying ?seems fesiable to me , symptoms such as running noses ,nausea ,ear infections ,sore throats easy cover up blame it on the flu ?? worl health organisation is run by who ? research that debunkers and think about your british government carpi bombing wenever they feel like it jazz rock please open your eyes instead of your text books !

  13. JazzRoc says:

    Hi nojustnojust

    nothings changed – You’re right. Your spelling, your punctuation, your paranoia, people’s continuing existence…

    sheeple dont wanna know – “Sheeple” don’t want to know what’s in your mind. What are you, a wolfple?

    i see whats happening in the skies and something is wrong – Yes, what’s that? The sky’s falling down?

    the haarp place in alaska bouncing radio or magnetic waves – Electromagnetic. One and the same. What about your mobile jammed up to your ear?

    metals that to are constently being sprayed above are heads – So you say, but no-one can see them (aluminum’s bright white and barium’s bright green), and no-one can find them in air samplers either.

    is the latest pandemic just a biproduct of this spraying? – Viruses don’t survive hours of exposure to sunlight, so NO.

    running noses, nausea, ear infections, sore throats – Never heard of THEM before! LOL!

    worl health organisation is run by who? – Exactly.

    jazz rock please open your eyes instead of your text books – Hiya. What fun. Bumped into a fish today while swimming across the bay. It was the text book that did it.

    Look, cheerup, everyone’s OK, and even you are still here. Celebrate. Cerebrate… 🙂

  14. spark says:

    This website is fake

  15. Allamazed says:

    In my town I see more much than tic tac toes, I see stars being created, and masonic symbols, I watch these planes turn in the air and double back to complete there project with others planes in cooperation. These are not accidental patterns while planes travel there regular courses. These are well organized strategic maneuvers. This past week alone there were at least 5 jets flying in sequence creating cirrus clouds that carefully spread out and blanketed a beautiful blue sky with cloud cover. What are they trying to hide-or block-or drop. Now you say this is all normal, however at the same time these chemtrails are being created there are regular jet liners traveling leaving trails that immediately dissipate. It is easy to distinguish between travel airlines and spraying planes. I was a lonely sky gazer all my life and have watched the skies for hours during every phase of the day and FOLKS this is not something I witnessed in all my 40 years until the past 7-10 years.

    They also pick and choose the different times of the day to complete there covering and then suddenly it all stops. Why do they all come out at once and then just leave the air space? Up to 8 planes working at once and then presto they all just leave after 2 hours of blanketing.

    If this is normal as you claim – then maybe it is time to bring down the planes and save our skies from all this pollution coming from there exhaust. AND they complain about car exhaust. Come on people-get real. There is so much evidence backed by scientists all over the world in countries that do not hide behind the media as blatantly as our country does. (USA)

    I am sorry but I do not find this to be a myth or a hoax from all the personal research I have done. I personally have felt the effects of the trails as well as watched others suffer from the effects. Hospital visits increase with increased chemtrail activity. Pains, breathing difficulties, heart palpatations, etc… have all been recorded. I have done research in my our town by questioning locals and have found a correlation between the spraying and ailments.

    Just my opinion….

  16. SR1419 says:

    There is so much evidence backed by scientists all over the world in countries that do not hide behind the media as blatantly as our country does. (USA)

    Really?

    Evidence of what?

    Lots of studies of the effects of persistent CONTRAILS on the atmosphere…contrail-cirrus are man-made clouds and potentially a cause for concern…

    …but that is a long way from global, clandestine, “spray” campaign of unknown origin and intent….

    Do you believe the contrails cannot persist…always dissipate?

    Did you know 2 planes can fly through the exact same air space and have 2 different contrail signatures?

    You speak definitively as to feeling the “effects” of contrails…but can you speak to falls rates? …and can you definitively say that particulate matter in the size of ice crystals will actually fall to the ground…ever…muchless directly below on to you?

    Have you, in fact, ruled out all other possible sources of your “effects” ?

    Have you considered that you only see the planes when they are leaving trails…and that as the atmosphere changes, the trails change their characteristics…..the planes are still there but the trails are different…or are not there at all….?

    What do you really know about the science of contrail formation, contrail clusters, ice supersaturation etc…?? Do you have any idea the role that each specific engine plays in the formation of any given contrail?

    Flight patterns are just not in any way strong evidence of “spraying”. Planes; private, commercial, military etc…all 5000 in the air at any given moment in the US- all can and do fly a wide range of flight patterns for any number of reasons…

    See this flight path from today’s Minneapolis paper:

    http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU

    Think anyone below is looking up in fear at the “spray” plane doing laps around their neighborhood?

  17. nojustno says:

    why have a go at my spelling ? nothing better to do ? you still were able to read it ? did you pick on little kids to wat oops sorry what the hell kind of prat are you to reply to me in that way ? add your own punc…. listen to allamazed take your head out the sand come home to england where 150 dead from swineflu which you hardly hear on bildaberg tv . “allamazed” your so right about times of flights etc hooray this is a government site so check my spelling jaz has anyone of your loved ones been killed in afgan/iraq ? do you have any loved ones except yourself sorry tried to be polite be4 (check that spelln) but your a gman or blind adios go fix some jet engines how come you refer to science etc tropospheres etc wat about 911 check the science behind that if your a man of your word you know it was impossible to fly a plane into the pentagon “thats science ” what about haarp magnetic/radio waves slated me but failled to mention whats going on there ? your a debunker end of story .” allamazed “your so right about the respetory ailments etc that are occuring all we can hope is as i am noticing more and more peole wake up then we will all be paranoid eh jaz times are changing you think that your a better person because of your intelligence well think again

  18. JazzRoc says:

    Hey. I’ve turned up a wizard video that explains everything! I must confess that FightForYourRights found it first:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8l5QlVqVw
    Having researched until I found exactly what I was looking for – I think I’ll stop…
    Quite liked the thick pomp-rock riff… 🙂

  19. Amber says:

    You are an absolute idiot (YOU, who wrote this article). How about you actually research things before you open your mouth? To everyone who posted pics thanks. I have seen crazy ones. This should be illegal.

  20. Jimmy says:

    Hey, nojustno, what are you trying to say?

  21. Austin says:

    Hi, I am a 20 year old college student doing a research project on chemtrails. Thanks for all this great information! I think it is ridiculous that chemtrail theorists get upset/mad with someone trying to disprove there their theory. It is as if they expect to put this conspiracy out there without any protests. Without a protest there is no argument and that’s no fun for anyone. Also, they seem very close minded and defensive, which is exactly what the accuse everyone else of. This is just some commentary I wanted to get out there. But my concern is this:

    I have been watching the sky since starting my report. 1-2 days a week and I have witnessed these so called, “chemtrails” in my sky appearing in the patterns chemtrails theorists describe (grids, X’s, parallel lines). They linger for hours and become very, very thick, and do, truly, turn in the clouds and make the weather hazy as they fall. I live in Los Angeles and our weather is very fine. On the days I do not see the “chemtrails” the sky is perfectly blue, as far as I can see, with the exception of one or two, thin looking, “normal contrails.” Since starting my project a month ago, I have not witnessed a “normal contrail” last more than 10 minutes; and, I would estimate, 90 percent of the time they dissipate immediately behind the planes as they fly. Also the “normal contrails” appear a mere pencil scratch in the sky, always alone (they do not persist longer enough for another plane to come by and cross it).
    I actually started to buy into this chemtrail thing when I was pointing out some “chemtrails” to a friend (they were in a perfect grid pattern) and we witness a “normal contrail” being created behind a plane in the sky at the same time. The contrails appeared at a higher altitude and disappear as the plane flew. The difference in the contrails was too great to make any comparison for me. I have since witness them at the same time on three different occasions. Every time…. the same thing. It is just strange and weird looking. How does this happen?
    Also why do I ONLY witness these strange contrail patterns once or twice a week and the other days are so, perfectly clear?
    If the patterns are simply from flight paths (the National Airspace System) these patterns would be there everyday, or at least on the same days every week, which they are not.
    Thanks doing this site. -Austin

  22. Austin says:

    Also, there are enough contrails in main stream media to convince me there is brainwashing taking place. I can’t believe this kind of stuff is coming from me because this is my first time being a conspiracy theorist. But I when I started, non-biasly, researching for this project I started finding those who claim chemtrails exist present stronger evidence than those arguing they do not exist. Please excuse the numerous typos above. Let me correct one to be more clear:

    “I have been watching the sky since starting my report. 1-2 days a week and I have witnessed these so called…” should read “I have watched the sky everyday since starting my report. 1-2 days a week, every week, I have witnessed these so called…” and I will add that nearly everyday for two months the weather has been sunny and clear, except maybe three days. On the days I see chemtrails, I also see contrails. On the days I do not see chemtrails, I see contrails. The contrails are basically the same each day. The weather has been basically the same each day. And the chemtrails are basically the same each day. But the contrails and the chemtrails are not at all the same. When I see them next to each other it is clear they are not the same. And similar things do not happen to them after they are sprayed. Chemtrails always last all day and expand as the fall. Contrails usually disappear as the planes flies and the longest I have witnessed one persist in two months is 10 mintues.

    Latest brainwashing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC2TzspJn5A at 1:32

  23. shilltastic says:

    Austin,

    If you are “non-biasly” researching this, don’t forget to get a book on atmospheric science and read/understand it. Also, don’t forget to contact those who work within the fields who have been educated in these subjects. These people will easily be able to explain all the concerns you have in your posts. I understand the mistakes you are making uin your thinking and could easily explain the facts to you. But, I don’t expect that you will believe me. Contact people you KNOW to be educated in these subjects and talk to them. If you find a SINGLE (verifiable) environmental scientist or jet pilot that believes “chemtrails” are real, I will eat my hat in a youtube video.

    Bill

  24. Austin says:

    Oh. I am nonbiasly researching… I have included an Air Force Facts Sheet on contrails in my sources. That is obviously non-bias. Also, I am going to interview a commercial airline pilot.

    Please explain each mistake you have found in my thinking. Please explain the facts for me, since you “easily” can. My questions above are clear and I asked them looking for answers. As I said, I am researching. That’s the ONLY reason I posted at all.

    This is for you own good: Just because you don’t expect someone to believe your argument is not a reason to withhold it. What if you are right in your argument and they end up believing you? Then you have succeeded. Or what if they have an interest counter argument that you do, or do not, have the answer to? Then you have both gone deeper. You see?

    Your post does not help anyone. Here is the premise of what you have said: “You are wrong in your thinking. And I am right. But I won’t tell you how I am right.”

    Please give me something more than this Bill. But I bet you won’t even bother.

  25. Anonymous says:

    “On the days I see chemtrails, I also see contrails. On the days I do not see chemtrails, I see contrails. The contrails are basically the same each day.”

    They are ALL contrails within varying atmospheric conditions. You say you “see “chemtrails””. You don’t. The short lived contrails are being deposited in areas of the atmosphere that are not conducive for persistent contrails (low humidity, warm temps). While the long lasting contrails, persistent contrails, are deposited in areas that ARE conducive to contrail creation (high humidity, air that is already saturated and hold as much moisture as it can, and VERY cold temperatures). These differing atmospheric conditions can exist very close to each other. It’s best to think of the atmosphere as a giant lava lamp. It’s a fluid with air of differing characteristics mingling with each other, over and under each other and at different layers throughout the atmosphere. That is the reason it LOOKS LIKE from the ground, you can have to planes that appear to be close to each other, leaving different types of trails. Planes flying on the fringe of two areas of different conditions will leave a segmented trail that “looks like” the pilot is switching the trail on and off. A difference of just a few feet in any direction CAN change the way a trail looks, depending on the weather conditions in that area of the sky, on that day. Again, the atmosphere is a constantly changing fluid.

    Let’s try THAT on for size…see if you accept it or reject it and then maybe we can move on. I refuse to waste my time on folks who outright reject that facts that I have just laid out.

    Thank you for taking the time to properly research this subject instead of watching a few youtube videos and then jumping to conclusions.

  26. Shilltastic says:

    Oops…I forgot to sign in. The post above is mine.

  27. Austin says:

    A much better fit! Thank you. I was really just looking for answers and yours are good ones that make sense to me.

    The lava lamp thing is a good image to explain it, I think. It made me think of how in a lake, there are warm pockets of water and cold pockets of water. Sometimes they are right next to each other. I have swam through them. It felt weird because the temperature of the water dropped significantly within a couple feet, or maybe even inches. It would make sense the same kind of thing happens in the air and that is why I see what I see.

    However, in times past, when I saw, “chemtrails” and normal contrails at the same time, the “chemtrails” always appeared lower to the ground, and the normal contrails appeared much higher. Sometimes the normal contrails (the ones that disappear as the plane flew) were so high and thin it would take me a couple minute to find them. The “chemtrails” (the ones lasting for hours) were right there… right above my head. If, “the long lasting contrails, persistent contrails, are deposited in areas that ARE conducive to contrail creation (high humidity, air that is already saturated and hold as much moisture as it can, and VERY cold temperatures.” And, temperature decrease as altitude increases. Then wouldn’t it be unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster) than the lower ones?

    I do not know why you assumed me a folk who would outright reject any arguments, especially before any arguments were laid out. I accepted it, though I am still trying to think critically.

  28. Austin says:

    If so many contrails happen to make it into main stream media these days, there must be some older (pre-chemtrail conspiracy) footage, or pictures, with contrails in them too. Can anyone find anything like this? Thanks

  29. Austin says:

    To clarify, I mean contrails in the backdrop of movies/commericals/music videos, like we see so many times today.

  30. Shilltastic says:

    Austin, I’m so sorry that you are skeptical. As with the lava lamp analogy, the right conditions for persistent contrails can, and do exists at altitudes you may think are too low for the creation of such trails. Good luck in your quest for truth.

  31. JazzRoc says:

    Austin,

    it so happens that an old debater on this site has turned up some old footage. He used to debate furiously with me, and I never succeeded in convincing him that persistent trails were natural – until he turned up pictures of trails in his own family archives. Then all debate stopped, and he became, what can I say, normal again. All debate stopped, but I could hardly take any credit for it, for he did all the work on himself by himself.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIYRRcODms
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUgghsE-CcI
    Let us know what you think.

  32. JazzRoc says:

    Austin, I confess to not having read through posts sequentially so I’m attempting to answer your queries re the way the atmosphere looks and appears.
    The first thing is that you’re looking at TWO atmospheres.
    The first is the one you know. It’s called the troposphere, it’s cyclonic and anti-cyclonic, precipitates rain, snow and ice crystals, unstable, permeated by rising convective columns (cumulus clouds, etc) and becomes progressively colder and more rarefied to five miles high, where it has one fifth of its sea level pressure and can be as cold as -80C.
    At this height it is called the tropopause. You can see this boundary when you watch a cumulo-nimbus cloud: the TOP of its ANVIL gives you the level of the tropopause. The reason WHY the upward-pouring cumulus slams to a stop at the tropopause is the exact reason why regular long-distance planes fly higher than this, and why also “chemtrailers” come to their wrong conclusions. The tropopause is a point of change to a completely new set of conditions.
    Instead of being warmed from beneath by the infra-red radiation reflected by the land, the thin atmospheric molecules obtain their heating by ultra-violet radiation from the Sun, and are consequently hotter with increasing height. This changes the stability of the air. Cumuliform activity cannot and does not occur. Water is held either as suspended ice crystals (cirrus) in the air, or as water vapor dissolved in the air. It is called the stratosphere, stratum being the Latin for “layer”.
    This smooth stable set of layers float like independent ribbons around a maypole Earth. Interlayer friction is low, so they can have independent headings and speeds. The quickest “ribbons” are known as jet streams. Wise pilots tend to maximise their interaction by selecting a particularly suitable layer for obtaining the best overland speed and for conserving fuel.
    These layers rarely intermix, and thus have their humidity determined by their origin. When I say “humid” I mean the air of that layer has a certain amount of pure water vapor molecules (H2O) dissolved in it (determined by temperature). But the most interesting point is that they are ALL invisible. A box of thin air with water vapor in it is no more visible than a vacuum.
    If a passenger plane just doing its normal stuff hits an invisible layer in the stratosphere which is supersaturated (an event which occurs for 17% of the time) then the water vapor in the layer that touches the trail will precipitate upon it immediately. The weight of the trail can grow by a factor of 10,000 times. The cross-section of a single trail can deepen to a mile and the width widen to more than five miles. The trail ice falls out of the layer it was formed in. Most evaporates, but some ice will remain as a cirrus cloud. It won’t be like a cirrus cloud, it will BE a cirrus cloud. The very reason for the manner of its formation (10,000:1 dilution by PURE water vapor) is a guarantee that ALL trails you see are more fresh and pure than your tap water.
    It’s atmospheric physics at work. Go to a library.

  33. SR1419 says:

    If so many contrails happen to make it into main stream media these days, there must be some older (pre-chemtrail conspiracy) footage, or pictures, with contrails in them too. Can anyone find anything like this? Thanks

    Austin….this site is littered with old photos such as :

    http://contrailscience.com/life-magazine-contrail-photos/

    or this:

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/

    and this one isn’t on the site but it is one of my favorites- from 1983:

    http://www.1000plus.com/Imagic/8301sund.htm

    …as a side note: I am always on the look out for contrails in old movies, tv shows, photos etc…and one place I have seen several is on the NFL channel when they play old “Football Follies” from the 70s and 80s….there are a lot of camera angles from the ground of the stadium looking up….showing a towering football player standing on the sideline – or something like that…and several times I have seen persistent contrails over the stadium…

  34. Austin says:

    Thanks once again. This is a very informational website. This have been really fun debating for me. I will try to debate with an open mind if you will.

    One thing at a time.

    Bill (Shilltastic), once again, you did not attempt to answer my question at all (read above).

    JazzRoc, PLEASE read through my posts. I have a couple specific questions that I would like specific answers to.
    Also, thanks a lot for the youtube videos.
    SR1419, thank you for the photographs.
    You are good researchers, like me. 🙂

    However, this evidence proves nothing and here is why:

    First off, I think you should know, that I know, persistent contrails exist. In my first post I said I have witnessed one persistent contrail last for ten minutes; and I am sure there have been ones lasting even longer than that. I have
    also seen all kinds of crazy trails at air races and shows. Persistent contrails exist; it is science, and I understand this for years. Other kinds of trails exist. For example, planes write stuff in the sky… or flares from planes… or rockets. However, I have since learned to distinguish chemtrails from the rest.

    Also keep this in mind, Chemtrail theorists believe the government is brainwashing its population through strategically placing images of chemtrails in movies/movie trailers (viewed by more people than the actual movie, and a much shorter time frame to accidentally have one slip in the frame)/ANIMATED movies (children are the audience, and they have to ADD them)/Commercials (viewed by millions, short time frame, under two minutes). This is what we are trying to disprove.

    Here are some examples of why they believe this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC2TzspJn5A (at 1:32)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GS53iEJWec
    http://911revolution.magnify.net/video/FOX-NEWS-BRAINWASHINGCHEMTRAIL#at (this is not the best evidence but if you keep in mind brainwashing…. repeated images, it makes sense.)
    http://www.rense.com/general76/cars.htm
    (these are a few, I haven’t been researching long)

    You see, I doubt that chemtrails would be added to a animated children’s movies, for any reason. If you want to recreate the sky, insert clouds. Clouds are even more common than Chemtrails. I also doubt the coincidence of a chemtrail slipping into the frame of a movie, and then the coincidence, on top of that, this frame was a frame that made it into the 2 minute trailer out of a hour and a half movie. Same arguments for the Kool-Aid commercial.

    As for your evidence, well… I could have taken photos or even a ten minute video of the persisting contrail I saw and it would have look like a chemtrail, but only out of context.

    SR1419, the following is your evidence. All that is proves is persistent contrails exist. Which has been proven through science. It does not disprove, in any way, chemtrails. These are simply pictures of interesting persisting contrails throughout history. The trails in these pictures ARE the reason the pictures were taken. Or at least a main focus of the picture.
    http://contrailscience.com/life-magazine-contrail-photos/
    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/
    http://www.1000plus.com/Imagic/8301sund.htm

    Jazzroc, this video shows military action. I am sure they are capable of just about anything. Lets stick to common place trails, in the open skies above our cities. Also, the trails are the what the film is focusing on.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIYRRcODms
    This one is a very nice persisting contrail. Check out the close up of the contrail…. Looks nothing like a chemtrail.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUgghsE-CcI

    So, can you post videos or photographs similar to the ones chemtrail theorists think our government is brainwashing through, dating before 1996?

    Can you post evidence that animators add contrails in their films to recreate the sky, before 1996?

    Can you post evidence that Hollywood film editors leave “accidental” chemtrails in the back drops of their movies and then chose those frames to put in the trailer, dating before 1996?

    Please post commercials, movie trailers, animated movies, cartoons, dating before 1996.

    PLEASE POST RECENT (AFTER 96) NEWS ARTICLES REGARDING PERSISTING CONTRAILS OR CHEMTRAILS.

    These would be ideal evidence for debunking the chemtrail conspiracy. Also, there should still be plenty of these to look through, and we are all good researchers here.

    Thank you.

  35. Austin says:

    This question is still out there too, “However, in times past, when I saw, “chemtrails” and normal contrails at the same time, the “chemtrails” always appeared lower to the ground, and the normal contrails appeared much higher. Sometimes the normal contrails (the ones that disappear as the plane flew) were so high and thin it would take me a couple minute to find them. The “chemtrails” (the ones lasting for hours) were right there… right above my head. If, “the long lasting contrails, persistent contrails, are deposited in areas that ARE conducive to contrail creation (high humidity, air that is already saturated and hold as much moisture as it can, and VERY cold temperatures.” And, temperature decrease as altitude increases. Then wouldn’t it be unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster) than the lower ones?”

  36. shilltastic says:

    Your question WAS answered, you failed to understand the answer. You keep using the word “normal” to describe what you “think” are normal contrails just because they dissipate quickly. Long lasting trails are ALSO “normal” given the conditions they are deposited in. It really is THAT simple. Please contact ANY atmospheric scientist from around the world and ask him/her for yourself!

    “If, “the long lasting contrails, persistent contrails, are deposited in areas that ARE conducive to contrail creation (high humidity, air that is already saturated and hold as much moisture as it can, and VERY cold temperatures.” And, temperature decrease as altitude increases. Then wouldn’t it be unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster) than the lower ones?””

    No. Again, you misunderstand the way the atmosphere works. You are simply assuming that conditions for persistent contrails can’t exist at low altitude because you “believe” that the ONLY way you can find colder/more humid air is to increase altitude. That is simply UNTRUE!

    Why would it be “unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster) than the lower ones?”?! You are forgetting the humidity variable there. And sometimes it DOES work just that way, the conditions exist at higher altitudes than at lower altitudes and the higher ones persist. Again you are ignoring the fluid and dynamic nature of the atmosphere and using absolutes to guide you. Weather is complicated. As fronts move in and out of an area, it changes the way the sky holds moisture. It also changes temperatures. Seasonal changes also change the way the sky acts in different regions.

    Also, there is the engines themselves. The more powerful an engine, the more ambient air it takes in, the more it spits out as high pressure steam. The opposite also holds true. There are so many variables and the chemtards just choose to ignore them and accept the simple, yet paranoid answer to the lines in the sky…”it must be chemicals”. Sorry, until someone comes out with a bit more substantial proof than youtube videos of ignorant claims and samples collected on the ground as “evidence” I just CAN’T believe this hoax. I will CERTAINLY change my mind when someone collects samples from several trails (not from the ground, or ground level air/water) and shows me that they contain “chemicals” other than that created from combustion and H2O. Until that day, I MUST believe this to be a hoax that ignorant people fall for. I have no choice.

  37. shilltastic says:

    Austin,

    You also forget to take into account that more planes in the sky means more flight paths than we had years ago. That means that air traffic has to fly lower or higher to avoid other planes that just weren’t there even 20 years ago! With the increase in air traffic, we have an increase in the number of planes that will leave trails simply because they are no flying within areas conducive to contrail creation, more often. Which means more trails than we saw in the past.

  38. JazzRoc says:

    Austin:

    You are good researchers, like me – Don’t flatter yourself. You have already proved otherwise.

    this evidence proves nothing – It proves that so far you have no evidence for “chemtrails”. You cannot introduce evidence of contrails and simply CALL them “chemtrails”: you have to introduce evidence that PROVES there are contaminants in the trail. We’ve already delivered our evidence: they are contrails exactly as described

    Chemtrail theorists believe the government is brainwashing its population – Which they also have no evidence for. Does the TV brainwash YOU? Do YOU feel brainwashed?

    I doubt that chemtrails would be added to a animated children’s movies – Hmmm. They wanted to represent a normal suburban sky, perhaps?

    All that is proves is persistent contrails exist. Which has been proven through science – So now GO find some proof of “chemtrails”.

    It does not disprove, in any way, chemtrails – Because there’s no need to. You have to offer proof, so far you haven’t.

    Lets stick to common place trails – Which I’ve already described to you.

    So, can you post – No.

    PLEASE POST RECENT ARTICLES – There’s some on my site

    “chemtrails” always appeared lower to the ground – The trail’s growth in size I have explained to you. As it does this it appears to approach you. It may do so by a mile or so, but its underside is still five miles from you. It’s an optical illusion. It’s in the stratosphere and always very much higher than ordinary tropospheric clouds. Use your sense. The typical fall rate of freshly-created trail is a fraction of a foot per second and during its weight buildup it falls at maybe ten feet per second. It could fall unobstructed from its forming height (35,000 feet) to the tropopause (25,000 feet) but that would take at least twenty minutes, wouldn’t it? There reasons why unevaporated ice crystals will remain at the tropopause. The most pressing is that descent from this level always brings the crystals into contact with warmer air into which they will evaporate. Is the general process sinking in yet?

    The “chemtrails” (the ones lasting for hours) were right there… right above my headMiles over your head. Deja vu?

    And, temperature decrease as altitude increases. Then wouldn’t it be unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster)

    than the lower ones?”
    And THERE is the PROOF that you haven’t absorbed or understood what I have written.

    Reread it if you are serious about being a “researcher”

  39. JazzRoc says:

    Maybe I was a bit snitty there, Austin. I haven’t made a point forcibly enough.
    The reason why falling and accreting ice crystal trails are STABLE in their FALL from their formation at, say, 35,000 feet and their ultimate destruction at the tropopause (or even higher up) is that they are falling into PROGRESSIVELY COLDER air. They are not warming up, but getting colder.
    The ONLY weight buildup determinant is the relative humidity of the surrounding air molecules with respect to ICE. This will determine the accretion rate. If the RH drops the rate can become negative, and the trail will begin to evaporate.
    There are other interesting features. The trail takes on a sawtooth appearance initially but typically becomes a set of slanted cylindrical towers which finally merge.
    These towers are like virga or fallstreaks because they are exactly the same: they are ALL rapidly-descending and accreting ice crystal clouds. But because they are descending into cooler layers of the stratosphere they run a reduced risk of evaporation before they get to the tropopause. Virga may look similar but they are in the troposphere and always evaporate, tailing to a point as they do so.
    All these atmospheric processes may look static but they are not. They are ALL processes of dynamic equilibrium which means that for any observed water state there is just as much evaporation taking place as there is accretion or condensation.
    It’s a fast and busy world. Descending trails are composed of many crystal sizes and downward speeds. The “dirtiest” become the heaviest and fall the fastest. The more slowly-falling crystals are purer and more likely to remain as cirrus clouds.
    There is a NET TRANSPORT of POLLUTANT to the tropopause, where the ice evaporates and leaves the original exhaust seed particle, whether it is a piece of soot or an unburnt hydrocarbon compound. The trail carbon dioxide gas (heavier than air) becomes separated from the descending trail ice because it takes no physical part in the accretion process. The other tracegases (NOx, SOx), which are lighter than air, migrate into the upper stratosphere where they are thought to exert a harmful de-ozonizing effect at the poles.
    Now THAT is a more important topic than “chemtrails”.
    For a start, it isn’t a myth

  40. SR1419 says:

    Austin-

    It seems that you sort of have the logic backwards….

    If, as you acknowledge, persistent contrails exist and existed long before 1996…and in fact, are identical in behavior to supposed “chemtrails” …then they are to be EXPECTED to be found in movies, tv shows etc as they often try to mimic real life….or got left in by mistake

    It is up to YOU as the researcher to do the work necessary to “prove” that they are not to be found prior to 1996.

    I personally know for a fact that persistent contrails were often in old movies and TV shows…watch old westerns or even Little House on the Prairie and you will see contrails not edited out…I mentioned the old footage from the 70sand 80s from football stadiums…the evidence is there, you just have to want to find it.

    Perhaps JR has a point about your research capabilities….when you say this “PLEASE POST RECENT (AFTER 96) NEWS ARTICLES REGARDING PERSISTING CONTRAILS OR CHEMTRAILS.” ….If you are truly interested in learning then you should be doing this yourself.

    …a 10 second google-news search should be all it takes.

    As for this question:

    “….And, temperature decrease as altitude increases. Then wouldn’t it be unlikely for the higher trails to dissipate so much faster (hours faster) than the lower ones?”

    Not necessarily as the humidity level- level of ice superaturation- may decrease the higher up you go…

    watch this cockpit video of 2 passing planes…they leave 2 different contrails- one persisting, one not…the lower one is the one that persists (notice the shadow it casts). From the ground they probably look like they are at the same altitude…likely inducing some poor soul to look up and decry the “spray plane!!” …someone took a video no doubt and posted it to Youtube as “proof!!” of “chemtrails:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95HS8VQO4ig&feature=related

  41. Austin says:

    Above, I said this, “I doubt that chemtrails would be added to a animated children’s movies for any reason”
    As a response, JazzRoc said this, “– Hmmm. They wanted to represent a normal suburban sky, perhaps?”

    If you wanted to represent a natural sky why not add clouds? Why not leave the sky blue?
    To answer these questions please just do this:

    PLEASE JUST POST ONE CARTOON OR ANIMATION WITH CONTRAILS IN IT DATING BEFORE 1996.

    When I posted this above you did not return any evidence. This is how you SR1419 responded, “It is up to YOU as the researcher to do the work necessary to “prove” that they are not to be found prior to 1996.”

    Here is my response to this:

    I have tried researching this. So here I am, asking you for help. You guys have showed me news article with contrails dating into the 1940’s I am sure you can turn up a cartoon or animation with contrails before 1996. Please help me out with my research. Especially since you claim to be better researchers than me, “You are good researchers, like me – Don’t flatter yourself. You have already proved otherwise.” (JazzRoc)

  42. Austin says:

    Above, SR1419 posted this, “they are to be EXPECTED to be found in movies, tv shows etc as they often try to mimic real life….or got left in by mistake”

    Here is my response: Trails do exist in movies, tv shows etc… after 1996! However, Chemtrail theorists find these trails found in movies, TV shows, commercials, movie trailers and even animated movies, to be brainwashing by the government. (I have posted evidence to support this above)

    To best prove this is not brainwashing simply provide evidence of contrails in commercials, movie trailers, animated movies, cartoons, dating before 1996.

    These would be the best evidence against chemtrail brainwashing because they are the least likely types of media for a persistent contrail to slip into the frame. Also, an animated movie or cartoon would be good evidence in support of your claim, “they often try to mimic real life.”

  43. Austin says:

    I have two more concerns that I want to bring up before I believe what I have witnessed are not chemtrails. But I want to stick to one at a time so I am clear about my points.

  44. Austin says:

    Shilltastic came through!

    “You are forgetting the humidity variable there.” -This is exactly what I forgot.

    “Also, there is the engines themselves. The more powerful an engine, the more ambient air it takes in, the more it spits out as high pressure steam. The opposite also holds true. There are so many variables and the chemtards just choose to ignore them and accept the simple, yet paranoid answer to the lines in the sky…”it must be chemicals””
    -Good point, and I agree, except I don’t like the word chemtards.

    “I will CERTAINLY change my mind when someone collects samples from several trails (not from the ground, or ground level air/water)”-I have see this “evidence” on chemtrail sites and agree thats its complete bullshit. There is a lot of bull shit in the chemtrail conspiracy. Way too many things these samples could be.

    Thank you.

  45. Austin says:

    JazzRoc,
    you have lost some respect from me. Luckily all I am to you is a wacko on the internet arguing chemtrails.

    You said all this:

    “this evidence proves nothing – It proves that so far you have no evidence for “chemtrails”. You cannot introduce evidence of contrails and simply CALL them “chemtrails””
    -No, there is not evidence for chemtrails this far. But there are hypotheses that need to be disproved. So, for the sake of the argument, what should I call them?

    “I doubt that chemtrails would be added to a animated children’s movies – Hmmm. They wanted to represent a normal suburban sky, perhaps?”
    -Support this claim with evidence dating pre 1996

    “Chemtrail theorists believe the government is brainwashing its population – Which they also have no evidence for. Does the TV brainwash YOU? Do YOU feel brainwashed?”
    -They have evidence to support a brainwashing hypotheses that you need to disprove. and……Do I feel like I am being brainwashed? That is a rediculous question.

    “The “chemtrails” (the ones lasting for hours) were right there… right above my head – Miles over your head. Deja vu?”
    -I might take the word of some people on this site, but not you.

    “It does not disprove, in any way, chemtrails – Because there’s no need to. You have to offer proof, so far you haven’t.”
    -What are you on this site then?

    I could have made you look like even more of a jackass by quoting you further but I haven’t. Overall you haven’t be helpful like others on this site have.

  46. Austin says:

    SR1419, Thank you for clear and simple answers, and great video evidence. If you care, I am closer to believing chemtrails do not exist. Thank you.

  47. JazzRoc says:

    Austin:

    all I am to you is a wacko on the internet arguing chemtrails – An accurate statement. Your last and only…

    So, for the sake of the argument, what should I call them? – Contrails you cannot understand.

    Support this claim with evidence dating pre 1996. – It wasn’t a “claim”. It was a suggestion, as to a simpleton. As to a simpleton who believes I’m here to serve him.

    They have evidence to support a brainwashing hypotheses that you need to disprove – I have no need to disprove anything. Do you have a need to prove something? Then prove it.

    Do I feel like I am being brainwashed? That is a ridiculous question. – Not to one who can see you’re at least deluded.

    I might take the word of some people on this site, but not you. – That cut me to the quick. Whose word do you take? Go on, tell…

    What are you on this site then? – Someone who comments, as do you.

    I could have made you look like even more of a jackass by quoting you further but I haven’t. – Do your best, if you know what that is.

    Overall you haven’t be helpful like others on this site have. – What might surprise you is that helping you wasn’t any of my concern.

    You must do that for yourself some day, when you really wish to get well again.

  48. MyMatesBrainwashed says:

    You are asking for evidence of trails in films/on tv before 1996.

    What you seem to be saying is “is there any evidence that they tried to brainwash people before they started spraying or are they so stupid that they started doing it before they brainwashed everyone, then people started noticing them because they weren’t brainwashed so they thought shoot, we better start brainwashing them all”.

    For such a grand plan that doesn’t sound very well thought out.

    And regardless, anything pre ’96 would just be evidence that they were brainwashing us to the conspiricists. they have all the bases covered. Not on screen, hiding, on screen, brainwashing.

    This is the thing when something doesn’t exist. Very easy to make up the rules.

  49. SR1419 says:

    Austin-

    its more difficult to present contrails from old movies etc…as they typically are not available for easy presentation on the internet…try looking for them yourself as you watch older shows.

    Nevertheless- this guy put together a small sampling…unfortunately, I was not able to get many of the links to work- Perhaps you will have better luck. But his samples are no doubt accurate:

    taken from this site:

    http://www.astro.ku.dk/~holger/IDA/notes.html#10a

    Introduction:
    * Warning to film instructers: they “must avoid “jet vapor trails in Civil War Westerns”: http://faculty.icc.cc.il.us/
    * Instructions to film photographers working at the Medieval Research Centre, Nykoebing, Denmark, include avoidance of contrails (and other modern artifacts) in the footage (information from an anonymous employee, June 2000). See http://www.middelaldercentret.dk/

    1. In “Moby Dick” (1956), jet contrails are visible in the background when Starbuck plans to shoot Ahab, – http://andy.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de/
    2. “Spartacus” (1960): “Of course, there are also the film’s amusing, but distracting anachronisms. In film history, Spartacus is perhaps as well known for its airplane contrails, as its four Academy Awards”: http://students.vassar.edu/… – see poster: http://images.amazon.com/
    3. Contrails are seen in “The Flim Flam Man”, 1967, when Morgan finds Scott’s abandoned jeep in a ditch: http://www.greenspun.com/
    4. The “Little House on the Prairie”: several episodes of the tv-series from 1974 show contrails (have a look yourself, it will not take more than a few weeks).
    5. In “Gettysburg” (1993) jet contrails are visible in the sky when Chamberlain talks to the the prisoners: http://andy.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de/
    6. “The Cowboy”: http://haven.ios.com/
    7. and “The cowboy looks up and sees the contrail of a jet plane”: http://www.kics.bc.ca/… “Horse Soldiers” (Civil War movie, recorded ??, portraying 1863): “Very obvious in the sky above them is a jet contrail.”: http://www.nitpickers.com/
    8. Contrails in “Zorro” (episode No. 25): http://www.members.home.net/… – and – click – from – click
    9. “Wild_Wild_West” movie (1999) showing jet coontrail: http://www.films.movie-mistakes.com/
    and “Gladiator” movie showing jet coontrail: click
    10. Moovie goofs: Gladiator: contrails one of 124 historical impossibilities: http://www.tiscali.de/ente/
    11. Moovie Goof in film “Top Gun” (not sure) http://www.slipups.com/

  50. Shilltastic says:

    I get it…since no cartoons before 1996 have images of trails in them, the lines we see in the sky are “chemtrails”. It’s all so clear to me now!

    Excellent post SR1419, although, no matter WHAT we post, they will always have an excuse to believe these lines in the sky are what they say they are (“chemtrails”)….. Paranoid ignorance.

  51. Shilltastic says:

    “Good point, and I agree, except I don’t like the word chemtards.”

    Honestly, I don’t either. But it fits them like a glove. They stopped (retarded) their education far too early and came to ignorant conclusions and then assumed that they didn’t NEED to further educate themselves.

  52. jimmy williams says:

    chemtrails can’t NOT exist, because they DO exist.
    whats this 1996 shit, they’re in City Slickers ’93.
    besides shouldnt we have seen them since the 50’s? (if we are talking about a black-op)
    have not U.S. government agencies conducted biological warfare on unknowning citizens and military personel?
    so why then so crazy to think again and ongoing.
    Do you support the “combat global warming” so lets cloud the earth theory?
    So you believe in Co2 causes global warming to… idot.

  53. JazzRoc says:

    besides shouldnt we have seen them since the 50’s? (if we are talking about a black-op) – What were they, then, when American bomber trails turned the skies white over Germany in 1943? Why did they have to carry bombs on those missions? Was it perhaps because they KNEW their engine exhausts weren’t going to poison the Germans?

    have not U.S. government agencies conducted biological warfare on unknowing citizens and military personnel? – NO. IDOT.

  54. Phadeone says:

    How the hell can you denounce someone’s own memories? Seriously? Ive “been looking” since I was a little kid, kids tend to be into things like big trucks, helicopters, planes, etc… so YES, I have had my eyes to the sky ever since I was way young and NO, for the life of me, can not remember seeing these ugly, nasty lines engulfing the skies. You gunna tell me I’m wrong about something I saw with my own eyes? Plus, alotta times these goddamn planes will fly for miles and then turn around and fly back again, then again, and again…What? Are these pilots lost or something? Not to mention there’s days where you’ll see the lingering trails and vanishing contrails at the same time. Somethings not right, here. People are getting really sick from this shit and your gunna sit here and deny it all.

    You know nothing of this world.

  55. Ross says:

    Phadeone, do you know nothing of the atmosphere?

  56. Shilltastic says:

    Phadeone, Is it possible that as a kid you didn’t live in an area that had high traffic? Because as a child around 40 years ago, I saw these trails just as I see them now. I live in the house I grew up in….30 miles west of Logan International. I DID see these trails as a child and they look no differently to me. Some persist, some don’t…depending on the atmospheric conditions. Also, there are MANY more plans and many more airports than there were even 20 years ago. Just because YOU didn’t see them as a child, doesn’t others didn’t. Please don’t denounce MY memories. Please provide ONE confirmed illness from anything to do with the trails in the sky.

  57. Jayme says:

    What about pilots “dumping” extra gas prior to landing so if the landing fails there’s no gas to explode?
    Where does all the jet fuel go other than as intense hydrocarbons we have to breathe?

  58. JazzRoc says:

    Jayme:

    “Where does all the jet fuel go other than as intense hydrocarbons we have to breathe?”

    There must be at least a couple of dozen carcinogenic compounds in JP-8. So I suppose one could call those INTENSE.

    However, they aren’t going to remain that way for very long. Individual molecules will over a relatively short time OXIDIZE to carbon dioxide and water, with UV rays and IR rays from sunshine providing the energy input.

    Also the DILUTION FACTOR will be off any significant scale. This means that, yes, it IS possible that every breath you take might contain a molecule of fuel around a day after it has been dumped, and if the prevailing winds had ceased for some reason, but you take in so many billions of molecules of air with each breath that there will be absolutely no effect on your system whatever.

    Such tiny risks bear NO COMPARISON with the risks you face walking down a city sidewalk with traffic fumes, brake lining asbestos, industrial solvents, plastics plasticizers, and the typical hard and sharp particulates you’ll find in typical city air.

  59. a says:

    i was never aware of this “conspiracy” until I heard Beck’s chemtrails, and went searching for contrails.

    awesome song.

  60. Alan says:

    Notice on the first video after the trail begins to stutter and then shuts off, when it comes back on the “contrail” is much thicker and has a hue to it. Looks like the sprayer… I mean engines/atmosphere was acting up that day. You guys are a trip. “Science” once proved that the earth was flat!!!

    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55089898

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfhEtAH0sYA

    Much love to you!

  61. shilltastic says:

    Sorry Alan,

    Science still proves that the lines in the sky are contrails, regardless of what your observations say. Until a chemtard can use EVIDENCE to support their ridiculous assertions, contrails they will remain. Yeah, a “thicker” trail with a “hue” is evidence…gimme a break!

    Using the “flat earth” excuse to dismiss MODERN science is just a ridiculous cop-out!

    The trails look the way they do because they are constantly flying in and out of varying atmospheric conditions. You can dismiss that fact based on your ignorance of the facts all you want, but it won’t change the facts in the tiniest bit. YOU are the flat earther in this scenario, not science.

    Again, there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest the trails we all see in the sky are anything but contrails.

  62. SR1419 says:

    contrails are clouds…man-made clouds but clouds nonetheless…

    clouds have gaps in them….why not contrails??

  63. Alan says:

    That’s a pretty funny answer. I thought you were going to say all the engines cut off at the same time because this was probably a contrail experiment, but then you come up with that gem!!! I think you should also link up a sight explaining to the veteran’s of the Vietnam War who suffered from Agent Orange poisoning that chemical spraying doesn’t exist and they were just “contrails”. Well, probably not, they are all pretty much dead now. You are clearly a “special” individual. Keep up the psy op!!!

    Much Love to You!!!

  64. SR1419 says:

    Alan…

    Agent orange was applied via aircraft at very low altitudes and applied directly on the forest…

    It was NOT applied via contrails….not applied from the troposphere, did not result in long lasting contrails and has nothing to do with the myth of “chemtrails”…

    That you thought a perfectly logical, proven, scientific explanation for the trails and their behavior people see in the sky was funny says more about your deductive reasoning, research and learning skills than anything else…

    Your ignorance of atmospheric physics is NOT a laughing matter.

    Good luck with that.

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/

    (Of course, if we disagree with you we must be gov’t shills doing psy-ops….whatever)

  65. shilltastic says:

    Why would I say “Agent Orange doesn’t exist”?! What does that have to do with this discussion?! NOTHING! You are comparing apples and carburetors.

    Keep up the complete ignorance and paranoia!

    And lying about “psy op” BS only makes you look that much MORE pathetic and paranoid. How about you drop all that crap and stick with the facts?

  66. Michal says:

    Hi Uncinus,
    thanks for a reliable information supported with good arguements. It’s really a pitty that some ppl claim not to buy “this stuff”, but they believe in a ridiculous idea of chemtrails…
    Keep up the good work, I admire your patience to some of those guys 😉
    Cheers,
    Michal.

  67. Alan says:

    Pathetic and paranoid? Sorry if I don’t accept your view. I guess you don’t consider the fact that our government sprayed toxins from airplanes on our own troops, the enemy, innocent civilians, water systems, plants, animals… coupled with the fact that government “scientists” denied at the time and still have not accepted the link between the spraying and the detrimental health affects 40+ years later “relevant” to this topic. This site seems to hinge on the argument that white lines come from the back of air planes. I’m sure that if it were you or one of your loved ones who was sprayed you would still hold on to “science” that is funded and conducted by the guilty parties. If you had your website back then you would probably call them pathetic, paranoid, tards….

    What if you could generate an aerial spray from the exhaust of a jet? I guess the chemicals would be in the contrail? Then you would have a chem-trail, but that is silly because they don’t exist. Oh wait they have a patent for that already, I’m sure they wouldn’t use it though, right? And if they did, they would be most forthcoming about it and also report any possible detrimental affects it may have on the environment just like they did with dioxin and agent orange. You would probably be one of the first to know about it as well, since they hold you in such high esteem.

    http://chemtrails.cc/2009/02/08/patent-stratospheric-welsbach-seeding-for-reduction-of-global-warming/

    We can agree to disagree, but the love is still there. Peace!

  68. SR1419 says:

    This site seems to hinge on the argument that white lines come from the back of air planes.

    You are incorrect.

    It is the “chemtrail” theory that hinges on the argument that the white lines that come from the back of air planes are somehow different than before, different than the scientifically proven characteristics of contrails. Different in visual behavior and content…and evidence of a global, clandestine “spraying” campaign of unknown origin and intent.

    …despite no evidence to suggest that.

    Contrails have always had the ability to persist and spread.

    All in situ samples of contrails continually find only what is to be expected in jet exhaust.

    Can you- Alan- show one definitive sample of a contrail that was found to contain anything other than is to be expected in a contrail???

    Can you definitively show one case of an ailment being conclusively linked to contrails??

    Can you explain why a persistent contrail in the sky is really evidence of a “spray campaign”?

    Indeed, there is a patent for injecting Welsbach materials into the atmosphere as a potential climate change mitigation technique….

    …and yet the patent is for the idea of putting the materials into the stratosphere…not the actual delivery method as the patent states:

    “The particles may be seeded by dispersal from seeding aircraft; one exemplary technique may be via the jet fuel as suggested by prior work regarding the metallic particles”

    So…no smoking gun…sorry.

    What is the actual evidence again??

    Persisting trails?

    Actual contrail samples containing metal?

    Definitive diagnosis of ailments coming directly from contrails?

    The patent of an idea to disperse Welsbach materials?

    The fact that the US Gov’t sprayed defoliant on the jungle in Vietnam??

    All the atmospheric scientists around the World who see the persistent trails and cry out in fear at the “massive spraying” ??

    All the Youtube vidoes that show “proof” ??

    Sorry…just not very convincing.

  69. JazzRoc says:

    Pathetic and paranoid? – P&p. Thar y’go…

    Sorry if I don’t accept your view – Well, it’s SCIENCE, you see. It’s understanding what it is we see. It isn’t “a view”. P&p. Thar y’go…

    I guess you don’t consider the fact that our government sprayed toxins from airplanes on our own troops, the enemy, innocent civilians, water systems, plants, animals… – It roasted a quarter of a million people alive once. Will it do it again, tomorrow, to YOU? P&p. Thar y’go…

    government “scientists” denied at the time – A lot of DENYING takes place in warfare. Is there an AIR WAR over your head? P&p. Thar y’go…

    and still have not accepted the link between the spraying and the detrimental health affects – P&p. Thar y’go… I think that MUST have happened by now! I do know that 2-4-D wasn’t thought to contain dioxin at the time when it was deployed. It’s much better understood these days how dangerous that stuff was. Seveso, etc…

    I’m sure that if it were you or one of your loved ones who was sprayed you would still hold on to “science” that is funded and conducted by the guilty parties – Science is conducted by MAN. P&p. Thar y’go…

    What if you could generate an aerial spray from the exhaust of a jet? I guess the chemicals would be in the contrail? – YES. AND THEY WOULD BE VISIBLE IN THE CONTRAIL GAP TOO. Ever seen that? P&p. Thar y’go…

    Then you would have a chem-trail, but that is silly because they don’t exist – No, you’re right, they don’t. P&p. Thar y’go…

    Oh wait they have a patent for that already, I’m sure they wouldn’t use it though, right? – Welsbach seeding in the HIGH STRATOSPHERE? Trouble is NO TANKER EXISTS that could fly high enough for that. P&p. Thar y’go…

    just like they did with dioxin and agent orange – Dioxin and agent orange are as useful for increasing the albedo of the Earth as Welsbach seeding is as a DEFOLIANT. Do you understand this? Probably not. P&p. Thar y’go…

    You would probably be one of the first to know about it as well, since they hold you in such high esteem – LOL. P&p. Thar y’go…

    We can agree to disagree – You may pose as agreeable if you wish. I think you are sick, need help, and carry a dangerous contagion to the hard of thinking.

    the love is still there – And I can feel it…

    Peace! LOL. HYPOCRITE.

  70. Shilltastic says:

    It’s funny how a COMPLETE lack of evidence doesn’t seem to discourage the CTs in any way. Where are the chemicals?! WHAT are the chemicals?! Isn’t it interesting that nobody else on the planet seems the least bit concerned? Pilots, atmospheric scientists, and meteorologists all see these same trails in the sky and just aren’t “bright” enough to sound the alarm….for 7 decades!? I guess they haven’t “studied” the subject long enough to understand it like the chemtards do. All that silly gibberish about “condensation and varying atmospheric conditions” is just NONSENSE when the proof is staring us in the face…and on youtube, for all to see!

    Again, I just can’t understand how a COMPLETE lack of evidence has resulted in so many chemtards. It’s like the missing pieces called “evidence” and “proof” just don’t matter to the overall puzzle. Those things are just afterthoughts….inconsequential. We don’t need actual atmospheric scientists, we have chemtards to explain it all to the world!

    The absolute ignorance these people are guilty of is nauseating.

  71. Shilltastic says:

    And the fact that they use “facts” they find on conspiracy websites as “proof” is HILARIOUS!

  72. MYOB says:

    You are full of crap that whether can predict whether contrails dissipate right away or spread out. I watch these planes fly. I see that they are at the same altitude and on the same day. Sometimes you will have some a plane or two that is spreading chem trails that expand, and other planes on the same playing field that have contrails that dissipate right away. This whole theory is filled with holes. The truth won’t be covered up for much longer, and if you are correct, why are people doing news stories on this subject now, thanks to great patriots like myself who have told them to grow some balls?

    Also, I’d like you to explain what those planes that spray contrails that have the big red noses on them are. Don’t EVEN try to lie and say those are not HAARP planes.

    I TOTALLY have your number….either you think we have idiot written across our foreheads, or you just have no clue what you are talking about and have not done research to back up ANY sort of stance on this issue.

  73. MYOB says:

    In the first line, I meant WEATHER, not whether. It’s been a long day.

  74. Shilltastic says:

    MYOB,

    Same altitude, huh?! How can you be so sure when your perspective from down on the ground doesn’t allow for such a statement to be accurate?! YOUR theory is the one filled with holes. Again, a COMPLETE lack of evidence of “chemicals” in the trails should tell you something.
    I hope you are right…I hope there will be someone that comes along who is able to explain the truth to you in a way you can understand. You have fallen for a hoax and REFUSE to accept the known scientific facts because you are biased and paranoid. No matter how many times the truth is explained to you, you will reject it in favor of ridiculous paranoid, unscientific nonsense. That’s YOUR problem not ours. If you want to accept the paranoid and foolish crap that rense, carnicom and other half-wits who are uneducated in the subjects that prove them wrong… spread, go for it…but PLEASE don’t spread your ignorance as “fact”. You may have “balls”, but you don’t have brains. And patting yourself on the back for spreading nonsense is just pathetic!

    “HAARP planes”?!? And where did you get this information?! Another paranoid, uneducated chemtard…..I suggest you do a little research into the color schemes of commercial aircraft…you will be surprised when you find out what airline uses the red nose. Are you aware that the HAARP facility is open to the public and offers tours? Are you aware that they hide NOTHING and openly admit what they are doing? They TRY to educate you people, yet you are too paranoid and foolish to accept the truth and would RATHER act like chicken little/cavemen due to your own ignorance. Chemtards are the joke of the century….congrats!

    You DO have (paranoid) idiot written across your forehead.

  75. SR1419 says:

    MYOB-

    if you took the time the learn the atmospheric science behind contrail formation you would learn that 2 planes could fly through the exact same spot and leave 2 very different trails….

    Its easy to learn…just do the research.

    what do you make of these pictures?:

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/

    or this video?:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95HS8VQO4ig&feature=related

  76. 19electric says:

    See, the problem is that those who argue for the existence of chemtrails do so because they WANT to believe they exist.

  77. Shilltastic says:

    19electric, I completely agree. That is why they INSIST on suggesting that anyone that doesn’t agree with them, must be “in on it”. I mean, how could we disagree with the obvious truth of “chemtrails”?! Right!? There they are…right in front of our eyes! And to deny them, we must be part of the conspiracy.

    These people want to feel like they are warning their fellow man to watch out for the big evil government who is spraying us like bugs. They are heroes! And how DARE those of us educated in the science that explains the lines in the sky….easily…interfere with the attempt these people are making to “save” so many…

    It’s like they think they are James Bond and the pilots laying the “chemtrails” are SPECTRE agents. They must stop the evil…at any cost…regardless of whether or not it even exists…

    Pathetic. These people live in a paranoid fantasy world…there is no hope for them.

  78. James C Heim says:

    Well, after taking 2 days to read this entire page,I have come up with some answers & questions myself.

    Answer

    1. chemtrails are bull.

    2. people who believe chemtrails will NEVER disbelieve even if direct evidence is presented to them.

    Questions for you

    1. Can’t we use the same rational thinking to assume the Bible is a consperacy?

    2. There is no evidence that anything abnormal occurred in the Bible.

    3. Using logical thinking, people don’t walk on water, people don’t “turn” water into wine.

    4. The Bible is comprised of many MAN MADE documents that very poorly support each other & cause the reader to make assumptions that it is automatically correct because their priest says so. (If you read the entire book you’ll see it makes no logical sense!)

    Anyway,using rational thinking these are my quandaries.

    [email protected] feel free to give me an email before I forget this websites address.

  79. Nim says:

    All these people who don’t have any required knowledge, without any scientific arguments, they get on my nerves.. Some people think that all they need to have to explain the world is their eyes and their imagination. What about SCIENCE people? Did you grew in a farm? Did you ever went to school? Have you ever studied a book? If you need someone to blame to that your brain isn’t functional enough, don’t blame government…don’t blame secret evil communities.. Blame yourself that you haven’t EVER studied a book in your life..
    And if books are lying.. :

    GO EXPERIMENT! PROOF IT YOUR WAY! Geez…

    Some people make a lot of money by ‘selling’ these myths… A guy in my country had made a whole fortune just by selling books on tv about all these things.

    You are right.. your cleverness unveiled government’s secret plan!

  80. Sprt says:

    It seems like a large driving force behind the debate for chemtrails is the question whether chemtrails can be proven NOT to exist? It’s easy enough to understand how you prove (or at least attempt to prove) how something exists, but how can you ever prove definitively something doesn’t exist? Isn’t that kind of a futile exercise? Kind of like trying to prove the existence or absence of God (or any other divine power, just using God as example)? Isn’t it more logical to try to prove that chemtrails exist rather than to prove that they don’t? This has been a very intriguing site to read. I’ve never even thought about this whole debate until I started reading this. IMHO, it’s certainly believable that chemtrails can exist, as I doubt any of us can definitively say we know about ALL government programs, but there’s just no proof that it does. So as of now, I remain unconvinced about their existence.

  81. shilltastic says:

    Sprt,

    There is as much evidence to show that “chemtrails” exist as there is that shows unicorns or leprechauns do. No one here is saying they “can’t” exist, we are saying that it’s most likely that the trails that are above our houses, and have been for several decades, are persistent contrails. There is ZERO evidence to the contrary. It’s much easier to prove that “chemtrails” do or don’t exist and using the god analogy is just plain silly. These are physical phenomena and HAVE been studied, physically. Science tells us under what conditions we will find trails and guess what…that is where we find them!

  82. jason says:

    Given the current state of the US government, black ops, secret departments, rogue elements of the government, the safe thing to do is presume they are doing it and try to document and prevent it.

    Even if untrue, more eyes on the government would not be a bad thing. There is enough other hanky-panky that needs to be uncovered, the it would not be a waste of effort.

    And as for your presentation of Chem-trails vs Con-trails. Very well done and professional, just what would be expected if something was going on, and you wanted it to be ignored. Should anyone miss it, that was a fancy way of calling you a very talented stooge.

    Another (fact), con-trails are bad enough to worry about by themselves. Given the height above the earth the materials dispensed have an major impact on the atmosphere.

  83. shilltastic says:

    “the safe thing to do is presume they are doing it and try to document and prevent it.”

    Unbelievable…..

    “Another (fact), con-trails are bad enough to worry about by themselves. Given the height above the earth the materials dispensed have an major impact on the atmosphere.”

    Are you referring to the white trail/haze left behind?! It’s water vapor. The actual “pollution” isn’t even visible from the ground.

  84. Concerned Indivisual says:

    9:30AM There was already thick spreading of interesting patterns (Not a new thin line so it was already there before 9:30AM–about as thick as 20 of the thin, newly made trails combined.) that of jet trails over the sky visible from San Diego while 3 of us drove all the way to Irvine. The trails was clearly seen as parallel pattern across the entire sky that’s visible on highway 5 from the ocean to the mountain hills over the East sky. The ocean side of the trails is more of a fan pattern \||||//

    By nearly 11AM, the parallel patterns started to mingle and turn into ### patterns.

    By the end of 1:15PM About half of trail started to disappear and the air gave a hazy look all over. New trails in XXX were made over the old trails (about as thick as 10 thin trail lines combined.) already somewhat disappeared immediately. At about nearly 2PM, I started to feel uncomfortable heat and also much of stickiness over my facial area. My eyes and throat felt dry. My nose felt hurt. Some of us started to sneeze but they have not looked up the sky so they have no clue if this is affected by the possibilities of atmospheric pollution.

    At about 4PM when I came back from Irvine to North County of San Diego, the remaining trails that I saw at 9:30AM this morning was still visible as a blob of white haze and thin clouds with the somewhat distinguishable old parallel patterns mixed with some tiny dark grayish lines that looks like ///////// over the sky.

    Even at about 5PM, I could still see the patterns. And the new X patterns also started to spread.

    Two of my friends started to have allergic reactions told me that they have been having the symptoms since this morning. They took the pills to stop the reaction. I’m having headache as of now.

    I have seen the jet planes created water vapor from the exhaust for years ever since I can remember. I remember I exclusively look at the thin jet planes’ trails numerous times to just wait and see if they will disappear. Most of the time, they stay up in high altitude for hours, spread, and then finally disappear. Sometimes they disappear rather quickly.

    I live right by SD airport so I know the only fly pattern around where I live is just taking off and arriving. On some occasion, the commercial planes do have to circle. The patterns usually are straight lines that goes North-South or diagonally N.S. towards Mexico from jet planes not from the planes of the airport. The plane flies in high altitude at one time going back and forth. It could be multiple jets, that I cannot say because the end view is blocked by the building and far-off hills.

    I know that jet trails at different time of the day, depending on wind, temperature, so on so forth, will leave trails in for hours or disappear quickly. Jet planes that leave trail even at the same time, different location will either stay in the sky for hours or disappear quickly.

    These trails didn’t disappear for a good 9-10 hours. Every single one of them. 100% of the patterned trails spread.

    As far as I know, not every trail should stay, if they are “normal” trails. Some of them should disappear, at different time. However, there are no trails left from airplanes that’s coming East-West to the SD Airport. Not one single plane. (The trail extended pass the airport all the way to somewhere towards National City, CA and beyond.)

    I don’t have allergies, by the way. This is just how I feel and it happens during the time of these patterns going across and fills up the sky. Sometimes I see here and there during the night also. Can we actually see these trails at night time? They also spread pretty large. (The one I saw two nights ago was about the size of 10 very thin jet plane trails.)

    This is what I’ve observed. Just tell me what they all are. I don’t care what it is. I just want to know what is it that all of us are looking at. And what the reaction I felt when the trails started to turn into haze.

    Also I’ve noticed the birds don’t like to fly up very high during those times. But then again, I don’t see too many birds around but pigeons so I can’t say much about the birds. I can assure you that there are definitely no birds that I know of during today’s observations.

  85. Concerned Indivisual says:

    Sorry I just want to add that the trails I observed, which I can definitely called contrails, disappears no less than a bit less than 2 hours usually. That’s like the longest I know of. After the second hour, the trails pretty much becomes nearly transparent with just a very very light haze for a good 15 minutes and then disappear, on a clear sky day.

    I don’t know if there is a possibility to have trails stay well over 10+ hours.

  86. Concerned Individual says:

    I still have headache. =(
    Contrails or not, I know it’s not something that looks healthy. I have people that I know well work as ground support at airports.

    All of them have respiratory problems. That’s just from contrails. Contrails all over the sky is definitely not good regardless. The U.S. Air Force has airbase far away from the city, specially residential areas. There is also a vast Pacific Ocean. Even if this is a military practice, they should do it where it’s not affecting the citizens of US.

  87. Concerned Individual says:

    All of them have respiratory problems. That’s just from contrails.
    I meant to say “exhaust.”

    Sorry I have headache… =(

  88. Prove it or shut up says:

    Uncinus – Thanks for this website. It has been most enjoyable watching these conspiracy theorist in typical ignorant fashion. I work with a guy that I have to correct on a regular basis. They have a recognizable pattern of spouting absolute recycled food or misrepresenting facts followed by accusing the one with actual proof of being a shill or wearing blinders. A good lot of them (like my bud at work) I find are followers of Alex Jones, who greatly benefits financially from conspiracy theries.

    There are enough real things to be frightened of that can be verified by science and fact. We don’t need a bunch of wild lunatic fantasy to muddy up the water. Spend some time figuring out how our kids are going to pay for all these government programs for instance.

    Uncinus, if all your attempts at pursuading those that choose to believe in ridiculous myths fails, just blame it on Elvis who really is alive and no doubt in control of HAARP.

  89. Sean says:

    My God there are some loonies out there.

    Thank you for the site Unicus. I sent a collegue of mine to your site in hopes he could get some logic into his brain. Sadly he is almost to the point of no return. Anything he does not fully understand is suddenly a “conspiracy” or is out to get him. Somewhat worrisome, edging into the realm of mental sickness. I appreciate your hard work in at least trying to give these people some real facts. Unfortunately, like religion, conspiracy paranoia ignores logic and reality in place of deep seeded beliefs of the farce. 🙁

  90. Daniel says:

    Hi, I would like to ask you if you know of red fuselage jets? I have been observing the sky quite a bit when the trails persist and grow and noticed that every time a trial did this it was made by a jet with a red fuselage and a short fat appearance. Many different planes would fly overhead, some caused trails and some didn’t, but the only trails that did not dissipate were made by the red jet. I really don’t think the commercial airlines have anything to do with these trails. I can look at the trails approaching from the southeast (of Santa Barbara) and predict which one will be a red one, every time! Later, two of the red jets passed, flying side by side with one slightly behind the other. One jet had a trail that persisted and the other had no trail at all. How could this be possible? There is no reason to think they would be at different altitudes since they were flying together. None of the commercial jets had persistent trails; you can see the jets’ difference by their shape. These jets did not just fly north, they also went south and from the south west.

    Also, the trails that persist from the red plane, spread out and grow in size. This is quite evident when looking toward the direction they are moving. They don’t just spread out, they grow. This could only be done from tiny particles as would be used in cloud seeding.

    I am not advocating an alien conspiracy theory, only that our government (or “World Government”) could be changing our atmospheric chemistry without our knowledge. I don’t think we are uninformed because they are doing evil things, it is just that the majority of people are ignorant and informing them on every issue would be counterproductive. I am wondering if anyone else has noticed a specific type of jet that makes the persistent, growing contrails? Thanks…

  91. SR1419 says:

    Southwest Airlines planes are predominantly red, particularly on the bottom.

    for example:

    http://tinyurl.com/yfj6ppv

  92. Ian bryant says:

    That is a true statement SR1419.

  93. SR1419 says:

    They don’t just spread out, they grow.This could only be done from tiny particles as would be used in cloud seeding.

    actually, Daniel, it has been found that contrails can induce further ice crystal growth- if the air is saturated with respect to ice.

    This paper from 1972 discusses it- obviously, the paper is quite old but it demonstrates that they were studying persistent contrails 30+ years ago. There have been many papers studying this phenomena since but this summarizes the basic point quite well- You can google the title to find a copy to read for yourself:

    “Measurements of the Growth of the Ice Budget in a Persisting Contrail”

    R.G. Knollenberg
    Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
    Volume 29, Issue 7 (October 1972)

    “It is often observed that contrails spread considerably…Under favorable conditions, a lateral spread of kilometers is observed…If sufficient air traffic exists, an entire overcast of contrail cirrus may develop and persist for hours with rapid growth in the ice budget of individual contrails.”

    This paper is more recent but suggest the same concept:

    “On the Transition of Contrails into Cirrus Clouds”

    F. Schröder and B. Kärcher
    Institut für Physik der Atmosphäre, DLR, Oberpfaffenhofen, Germany
    Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
    Volume 57, Issue 4 (February 2000)

    “Aircraft exhaust may trigger cloud formation in two ways, either directly or indirectly. In the direct case, a contrail forms immediately behind the aircraft. This requires a special thermodynamic state of the atmosphere, especially low (<230 K) temperatures at typical flight altitudes (∼250 hPa) (e.g., Schumann 1996). After a short (about 1 s) initial growth stage (Kärcher et al. 1996), the contrail will evaporate within tens of seconds if the air is dry. In contrast, contrail growth will continue in background air that is supersaturated with respect to ice. Eventually, the line-shaped contrail may transform into a cirrus cloud, as demonstrated by satellite observations (Schumann and Wendling 1990; Minnis et al. 1998; Mannstein et al. 1999). The indirect way can occur when aging aircraft exhaust, consisting of an internal mixture of black carbon soot and liquid volatile aerosols (mainly composed of H2SO4/H2O), leads to the nucleation of ice crystals and, hence, the formation of cirrus clouds, where no cloud would have formed in absence of aircraft (Jensen and Toon 1997; DeMott et al. 1997; Kärcher et al. 1998). This may occur when aircraft exhaust particles have an increased ice-forming ability compared to background particles."

    Cloud seeding as is traditionally practiced in this country and around the World for the last 50 years is not done in the same region of the atmosphere that contrails are usually found. It also does not involve the use of contrails- instead it is done with flares and often done from the ground. See here for more info:

    http://www.weathermod.com

  94. JazzRoc says:

    Daniel (slight precis):
    One jet had a trail that persisted and the other had no trail at all. How could this be possible?
    Easily possible if they are at slightly dissimilar heights. The stratosphere is layered with differing humidities, and contrail persistence is determined by the humidity of the air passing through the turbofan engine. All that has to have occurred is that a layer boundary separates the two aircraft.

    There is no reason to think they would be at different altitudes since they were flying together.
    There every reason to think they were NOT flying together – if they were civil passenger planes. Air Traffic Control is charged with the task of maintaining ten miles and/or a thousand feet of altitude separation between ALL aircraft.

    Also, the trails spread out and grow in size. They don’t just spread out, they grow. This could only be done from tiny particles as would be used in cloud seeding.
    The tiny particles which freeze out of the turbofan exhaust gases of all passenger jets are ICE CRYSTALS, the physics of their production has been known for nearly a century. Trail density increases in supersaturated air (present 17% of the time) by the precipitation of ice onto these crystals from the excess water vapor dissolved in the air. They are normally called persistent spreading contrails, and were first observed to white-out the skies in 1943 during the 1000-bomber raids over Germany in WW2.

    I am advocating that our government could be changing our atmospheric chemistry without our knowledge.
    But surely not without the knowledge of thousands of climate scientists, many of them independent (and some of them in disagreement!) Don’t you think they might be rather quick to make a name for themselves if they were to discover that?

    And then there are all the atmospheric sampling machines, and all the machines used to purify air used in manufacturing processes, publicly and privately. What about those?

  95. Daniel says:

    Okay, please don’t tell me I’m not seeing what I see. The two planes were not passenger planes because they were together at about the same altitude. If they were passenger planes being that close and flying in unison, they’re altitude differences would be quite different. That is regulation. North/south planes fly at one altitude and the east west planes fly 500 ft above and below. That would be an obvious difference from the ground, 1000 feet between planes. The only way they could have been so close was they were not passenger planes. They were not that high either, many other jets passing by were much higher. Planes were flying in both directions and leaving these trails, and if they fly north and south, they cannot fly at the same altitude. Where I live there is always air traffic. Some comes to and goes from San Diego and they’ve reached their cruising altitude. Others, from the L.A. area are still on their ascent/descent as the fly by Santa Barbara. If the persistent trails were completely humidity and altitude specific for a given time, then any plane passing this point would make the same trail as it entered and went higher.

    About the particles/ice formation: At 100% humidity there is only about 4 grams of water vapor per kilogram of air at 0˚ C. It is colder where these planes are flying. Ice crystals that form from the exhaust do collect more water vapor but they have a limit. Ice gets heavy and cannot grow continuously like the trails do. There is a certain point of condensation that deals with equilibrium. If the crystals kept growing they would fall into a warmer altitude and evaporate.

    But if particles were being spread through the exhaust these particles would also have water condense on them and grow. Ice crystals form from the exhaust and are not due to a condensation onto a jagged edged particle. (it’s an electron thing that attracts the water molecule and jagged edges have electron concentration gradients making some parts positively charged attracting a negatively charged water molecule; if your glass was perfectly smooth water would not condensate on it) In the atmosphere water vapor forms on positively charged particles (aka dirt) and then freezes into ice crystals.

    Again, the only way for the trails to persist the way they do is from an added particle of some kind. If this were not true, all planes passing this area would have persistent trails at some point, not just one type.

  96. Daniel says:

    I forgot one point: Try and tell me that Area 51 does not exist either. The government doesn’t tell us things because they are harming us, there are too many things that people don’t know about that get paranoid from their ignorance and wouldn’t let anything happen. Top secret is the government’s MO.

    It is definitely possible and very probable that the government would be doing something to the atmosphere without telling us. I’m not advocating an evil agenda theory, but history has taught us that the informed do everything they can to keep the uninformed ignorant in order to keep control, good or bad.

    Don’t forget, the government lives here too.

  97. Anonymous says:

    “Again, the only way for the trails to persist the way they do is from an added particle of some kind. If this were not true, all planes passing this area would have persistent trails at some point, not just one type.”

    Why don’t you consider the combusted jet fuel- the soot- as added particles?

    Have you considered any difference in the engines themselves that might effect the characteristics of the trails? If the exhaust is being expelled at a different temp or with a different degree of water then the trail might behave differently.

    such as suggested by this paper:

    “Contrail formation and propulsion efficiency”

    DETWILER Andrew G. ; JACKSON Arthur
    Journal of aircraft, vol. 39 2002

    “The contrail factor is the ratio of water vapor to enthalpy added by combustion to the exhaust plume from an aircraft engine. It is the key parameter determining the highest temperature at which contrails will form behind a particular engine on a particular aircraft. Cycle calculations are used to estimate contrail factors for a range of flight environments at a range of power settings, for generic low-bypass and high-bypass turbofan gas-turbine engines. Contrary to assumptions made in current methods of contrail forecasting, the contrail factor is not constant for a given engine type. The contrail factor varies even for the same engine at different power settings and flight conditions. Results are shown for a range of conditions, including flight levels between 25,000 and 50,000 ft in a standard atmosphere, flight Mach numbers ranging from 0.4 to 0.9, and power settings from idle (low) to military (high)”

    It IS possible for 2 planes to fly thru the exact same spot and leave different trails.- look at the pic in question #9:

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/

  98. SR1419 says:

    sorry – last post was me- cookies got washed…

    but since I am here 🙂

    “It is definitely possible and very probable that the government would be doing something to the atmosphere without telling us”

    Definitely possible…but a supposedly GLOBAL campaign? Daily- across the World involving 1000s of planes and 10000s of people…for over a decade…and not a peep.

    Does that really seem plausible?

  99. That would be an obvious difference from the ground, 1000 feet between planes.

    Really? I think you’ll find it’s basically impossible to tell the difference between a plane at 34,000 feet and one at 35,000 feet. See here:

    I took one image of a jet nominally at 35,000 feet. Then scaled it for 34,000 (97.1%) and 32,000 feet (91.4%). I think you’ll agree they all look pretty much the same. Especially as this is more zoomed in than you’d see with the naked eye, which would be more like:

    If the planes are flying lower, then it’s still similar. If the top planes was flying at 20,000 feet, then the bottom would be at 18,285 feet, stil nearly 2000 feet apart, and looking pretty much the same to the naked eye.

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