I have seen a number of people with Asperger’s Syndrome who present much like SPUSA. That means nothing, but if SPUSA has Asperger’s, and would say so, it would tend to explain a lot.

I find Alex Jones to have zero credibility. His worldview seems to be mostly informed from many years of perusing comic books.

I’m a politically conservative atheist, and I deeply distrust our government, regardless of which party is in power. I distrust it in a different sense from that described by SPUSA. It was formed by and is currently operated by humans, who tend to seek advantage where possible. Therefore, I don’t think they (the government) will ever do a very good job of spending the money I send to them.

Still, to make that leap to chemtrails… It seems absurd, but I guess when a person is in the middle of it, and has invested sweet-baby-Jesus-no-telling-how-many hours in thinking/reading about a particular conspiracy theory, it’s bound to be hard to let go the stinking thing and rejoin reality.

Good luck to all, including you, SPUSA, even though I heartily disagree with just about every word you said. Uncinus, thank you for the site, and, Boenoid, your comment was simply outstanding.

SPUSA, I’d be interested to know whether you subscribe to other conspiracy notions, such as the 9/11 truther movement. I’ll check back later to see if you answer.

you can’t altogether dump the idea that special programs ARE ongoing, and could EASILY be interspersed and kept very low-profile in the mass of airspace data, rules, regulations, clearances, etc….

No- can’t altogether dump the idea….its just that I see no evidence of it in a persistent contrail…that- in and of itself- is not evidence of something abnormal…and yet that is the Myth of the “chemtrail” theory.

…so, there could be some secret testing, research etc going on but that is a very long way from global, clandestine, “spray” campaign of unknown origin and intent supposedly perpetrated over the last decade…

…and as such, seeing a persistent trail, filming it and claiming it is a “chemtrail” is not a scientifically valid exercise.

I do not doubt that the government, NWO, Illuminati or whoever would LOVE to “own the weather” – but a persistent contrail is not evidence of their success.

As for halos, sun dogs and other optical events….

I cannot speak to your experience- although would love to see the video- but such phenomena ARE associated with ice crystals in the atmosphere…and it is typically assumed that only ice and water can refract light into “bows” …and not metal…or…??

They are more common in the winter and to be found with an atmosphere loaded with ice such as this picture from 1983:

http://www.1000plus.com/Imagic/8301sund.htm

Here is an interesting and informative site on atmospheric optics:

http://www.atoptics.co.uk/rainbows/notabow.htm

‘Old rehash’ ? So a multitude of independent news sources providing a detailed picture of HAARP’s abilities isn’t up to snuff huh? You didn’t find anything pertinent to your query? I thought it provided quite a bit for you to mull over.

When confronted with a massed array of dipole antennae (with tweaks) and a gas-powered power station (and a reference physics book or two) I can work out for myself the ways in which it can be made to work, thanks.
Because each antenna is under individual control the array as a whole can be “phased” so in effect it may be “focussed” upward, downward, and from side-to-side.
No-one seems to talk about three important and relevant aspects, so I shall do so now. They are DIRECTIONALITY, POWER, and EFFICIENCY.
DIRECTIONALITY: the best way it works is straight up, and straight down, and at the natural frequencies (or octaves) of the antenna length. As soon as you wander from the strait and narrow, or off the fundamental or some octave of it, you will get a corresponding drop in transmitted power (which, NOT being transmitted through a vacuum, will be doing its best to be absorbed by everything).
The POWER, until recently, was sufficient to irradiate my cup of tea from cold to drinkable in about a week, if my tea were thirty miles above it. Now it might take an hour.
The EFFICIENCY isn’t too good. If it were several acres of (and millions of) MOBILE PHONE ANTENNAE working in the UHF region then you’d be talking. But it hasn’t that sort of efficiency potential, nor will it ever have. It’s best suited for the work it was originally designed for: heating up portions of the thermosphere at night.
It CANNOT ever be pin-point accurate. It CANNOT ever “reach over the horizon” except by bouncing off the thermosphere, and when it does this it can be hilariously inaccurate.
About the biggest thing it might be able to do is “bridge” the thermosphere to earth. That’ll pass an amp or two, and remove it from the map. I wouldn’t be bothered…
ALL the mad things I read attributed it seem to have been composed by people who believe they are expert “scientists” and “futurologists” because they’ve read about Tesla and seen every episode of Star Trek…

In other words go away and study enough to understand something (or anything) about it before you undertake to write about it.

We could go to Dr. Randy Wymore if we wanted an unbiased opinion on Morgellons perhaps if you wanted to open a seperate thread for it, but lets stick to your original point of whether:

1. Have any contrails ever been anything except water vapor? Well obviously, a textbook definition of a contrail, is a contrail of water vapor, so the obvious answer is no.

Now, some people claim that biological and chemical stuff is coming out of jet engines. I personally have not flaunted such a claim, so stop using that like you have something on me.

Because hmm. I’m not sure how biological things could survive being combusted, but ‘could’ things be added to the jet fuel, as some reports have claimed? How about Alex Jones? He brings up some information about it.
He’s not 100% reliable, but he’s way ahead of most when it comes to providing cutting edge news about geopolitics, military activities, science and experiments, and other stuff that is often under-reported or blacked out of main stream news media sources.

This link is one of his broadcasts where he covers a whole range of the ‘geoengineering’ and other aerial science experiments being widely done etc…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7198198514629240141#

Now many people see some persistent contrails, and mistake them for whatever they imagine these ‘geoengineering’ experiments to be (or eugenics, biological, etc…), and a flood of false alarms come in from every corner of the world where people have internet and free time.

Does that make a textbook contrail anything other than itself? Still not, because a ‘contrail’ is by definition a trail of water vapor.

Doubtless a majority of people making reports are flat wrong about seeing anything other than a perfectly normal acceptable occurrence of a phenomenon that is a by-product of a service that exists to make our lives better and happier (aviation).

But now, unless Alex Jones is completely flat wrong and off-target himself, picking crap out of the wind and tossing it in every corner just to make himself a buck, it would be fair to heed some of the things that he and others like him are warning about. In fact, he’s quite on-target about a good many things.

Here is a huge library of his documentaries available free. I recommend a thorough watching of each and every one, then you can have full confidence like I do that he is not a loose-canon fear-monger as some types would like to label him. http://www.infowars.dk/content/alex-jones-documentaries.

Now you say it is easy to just go up and measure contrails, which if you are measuring contrails, is indeed easy.

If however you are trying to ‘catch’ government programs ‘in the act’ so to speak, it is quite a different thing.

To account for the thousands of variables when it comes into taking an accurate sample of the air / atmosphere and trying to pin down any one source is quite a task and obviously takes more than ‘just hiring some guys to go up and follow an American Airlines redeye’ type of thing.

Because, since there are nearly 87,000 total flights per day in the U.S.,
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Flights_daily_in_US

with that amount breaking down into three categories: commercial, general aviation, & air-taxi,
http://www.chacha.com/question/how-many-commercial-flights-are-there-per-day-in-the-united-states

and again with nearly 30,000 commercial aviation flights:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1711790

No doubt your sample size would have to be significant, much more than a few random contrails.

and that still wouldn’t cover ANY military or ’special access’ flights (which are the ones you would want to sample most no doubt). Or high-altitude blimps, and other vehicles that are restricted information like Aurora.

Plus, not even counting the ‘Freedoms of the Air’ which permits overflights from other countries. So, theoretically you could have a CIA proprietary front company in Mexico making overflights into a CIA proprietary front in Canada, and no record would exist in the U.S. of flight logs, etc…and who knows what could be released on the way through. (For an example of declassified government planning to cause terror using CIA proprietary aviation companies aka front companies see: Operation Northwoods http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf)

Since a normal every day commercial air traffic contrail is just a contrail of water vapor, any mis-perceptions that every day normal commercial air traffic contrails are laden with ’special extras’ are wrong, OK.

But even taking into account some people’s wrong assumptions, you can’t altogether dump the idea that special programs ARE ongoing, and could EASILY be interspersed and kept very low-profile in the mass of airspace data, rules, regulations, clearances, etc….

Who is to say that these programs couldn’t occasionally look like contrails? It would be perfect plausible deniablity, would it not?
Or perhaps if ‘contrails = chemtrails’ is a COMPLETE red-herring at any and all levels, at least people can start from there and learn for themselves the real undeniable picture of unsolicited experimentation on the public many times throughout history, find the true answers for why such strange afflictions as Morgellons exist, and hopefully prevent any future experiements by being aware. .

On a side note, I have always been interested in the sky, clouds, airplanes, etc… and my unique living situation has brought me between California and Michigan on a nearly annual basis since I was very young. I have never noticed before recently, a phenomenon called ‘chembows’ or as some would like to say ’sundogs’, though they are clearly different.

I personally have video I captured of a quickly appearing/disappearing massive ‘chembow’(more like a huge rainbow colored splotch in the sky) nowhere near the sunrise or sunset, that lasted about 5 minutes during a Michigan winter. Nobody that witnessed it here EVER remembered seeing that type of thing before, and it has happened more than once that I have personally been able to witness in recent years. Many others have reported or video captured similar instances across the country in variant temps.
Explain away, please.

It would be VERY easy to just a hire an atmospheric testing plane to go up and sample a contrail or 10 of your choice. Why hasn’t anyone done that?

These guys have several for hire:

http://www.weathermod.com

There have been many, many in situ samples of contrails taken over the last 10 yrs and none of them have reported finding anything other than would be expected in combusted jet fuel.

..and how would any nefarious contents survive being combusted thru a jet engine?

well, then the question remains- what makes you think the contrails are part of the evil doing? If they behave the same as they always have, if the really can persist and spread and induce further cirrus formation…then what about them makes you think that they are potentially part of some global ’spray” campaign?

Never mind the the entire premise of “chemtrails” is based on the myth that “contrails dissipate- chemtrails don’t”

That single lie makes almost every single Youtube “chemtrail” video completely null.

And on Staninger, you attack her credentials, but it also says about her…

“She received the prestigious 7th U.S. Army and Greater Stuttgart Community Award for her work during Operation Desert Shield in preventing increased chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) from the Kuwaiti burning oil fields during Desert Storm. ”

I guess they hand those out to every quack that comes along?

Well no, in fact she’s the only person in the world ever to receive it. It must be very prestigious indeed!

I don’t like to attack people, but if you are arguing from authority, they you need to be able to show that the authority you are using is actually a real authority. And again, you might ask for such an astonishing discovery, why has nobody else discovered it?

You know how she makes money? She sells diets and saunas, as a magic cure-all.
http://www.staningerreport.com/#NewConsult.html

She has a huge conflict of interest. Find a scientist who is not actually selling things.

No doubt there are TONS of mis-reportings of daily contrails.

Does that exonerate the p-t-b? Hardly.

For a long time, nobody could pin-point the source of the Anthrax attack on our Capitol either. Then after a couple years of analysis, it was concluded it came from one of the most notorious bioweapons labs the U.S. has – Fort Detrick – then it was quietly swept under the rug of ‘Dancing with the Stars’.

So we should remain vigilant.

And on Staninger, you attack her credentials, but it also says about her…

“She received the prestigious 7th U.S. Army and Greater Stuttgart Community Award for her work during Operation Desert Shield in preventing increased chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) from the Kuwaiti burning oil fields during Desert Storm. ”

I guess they hand those out to every quack that comes along?

Jazzroc >

‘Old rehash’ ? So a multitude of independent news sources providing a detailed picture of HAARP’s abilities isn’t up to snuff huh? You didn’t find anything pertinent to your query? I thought it provided quite a bit for you to mull over.

Does this video contain any information you find valid and useful?

It’s a rehash of old material, which I’ve seen before. Let’s keep this simple. No.

Now, GIVEN THAT, what’s the evidence that they are using contrails to do it?

As for Staninger – it seems she exaggerates her credentials. Why exactly do you trust her over the millions of scientists who say otherwise? Is is perhaps because she says what you want to hear? How exactly do you know that SHE is correct and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong?

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message453097/pg1

“Her former academic appointments include Research Coordinator and Assistant Professor for the Research Department at the former Capital University of Integrative Medicine, Washington, D.C.”

The Capital University of Integrative Nedicine was closed down by the authorities last year; it was labeled a “diploma mill”.

And where did Staninger get her “doctorate”?

“Dr. Hildegarde Staninger, RIET-1
Industrial Toxicologist/IH,
Doctor of Integrative Medicine”

Here’s what quackwatch says about Capital University of Integrative Medicine:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/cfcm.html

Near as I can see, Staninger’s not a real doctor, but someone who had a dcegree in environmental toxicology and wanted to “better” herself without going the standard route of attending an accredited school.

What’s to “command and control”? Are you inferring “mind control”? If not, what?

That is a very interesting point you bring up Jazzroc. Does this video contain any information you find valid and useful?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxRnkfvO_EU