Comments on: Things are not as they seem

By: Shilltastic

Shilltastic — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:03:40 +0000

“i am certianly convinced he is a government agent.”

Of course you are!

By: Matthew From NewHampshire

Matthew From NewHampshire — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:27:46 +0000

This site is a farce and a FED hangout, honestly after reading all the responces from “hooked cloud” i am certianly convinced he is a government agent.

One does not need a degree in engineering to understand the concepts, your overpaid degree barely gives you an advantage to the hardened researcher, so seriously stick that mumbo jumbo up your…

By: Uncinus

Uncinus — Tue, 26 May 2009 03:57:35 +0000

Well, yes. I’m sure In Awe is aware of that. He was just making that point the the heating of the atmosphere is mostly not from direct sunlight, but rather from convection from the earth. He did not mention that the earth is heated by the sun, perhaps a little too obvious. He also did not point out that some of the suns energy does actually directly heat the atmosphere, so I pointed that out.

Perhaps a diagram was needed.

By: JamesMorlan

JamesMorlan — Tue, 26 May 2009 03:07:00 +0000

In Awe: The Sun is a self-sustained nuclear reaction, one million times the size of the Earth. The Sun emits a wide variety of radiation in all directions, including infrared radiation, which we experience as heat. Heat is the result of the excitation of molecules in a substance, whether that be the surface of the Earth, or the atmosphere (air) above it. In space, the energy travels unobstructed from its source until it strikes an object, such as the surface of the Earth, or the atmosphere above it. The energy itself is neither hot nor cold, but the amount of energy will determine how hot something gets when the energy interacts with matter.
So, yes, the surface of the Earth is warmer than the air above it, and a considerable amount of that heat in the air comes from the Earth, which is merely imparting residual heat energy that it collected from the Sun. The atmosphere becomes increasingly dense the closer you get to the surface of the Earth, and the surface of the Earth obviously is much denser than the air above it. The solar energy is absorbed by the Earth and is subsequently radiated back off. The Earth, itself, is not generating the heat – it is merely bleeding off energy that it receives from the Sun. Thinner air is not capable of retaining as much “heat” energy as denser air, or the ground, so air temperature drops as you climb higher in altitude…generally – roughly 4 degrees per 1000 feet.
We can feel the heat directly from the Sun as the energy raises the temperature of our skin, and we can feel the heat indirectly from the air around us imparting its heat energy on us as we come in contact with it.

You want proof that the Sun gives off heat? Go stand outside for a few minutes on a hot Summer day. Then go stand in the shade. It’s really not rocket science, though you could learn a lot about it just by following some NASA space shuttle and space station missions if you don’t feel like doing the study, yourself. I’m certainly no expert, but it is clear that the air, whether directly or indirectly, ultimately gets its heat from the Sun.

By: Uncinus

Uncinus — Sat, 16 May 2009 23:51:28 +0000

Indeed. Unfortunately logic, in the sense of predicate logic, is not particularly useful unless you start with sound axioms that cover all the variables. You can get anywhere you want if you can start anywhere you want.

Not, of course, that most people even use predicate logic when arguing pseudoscientifically. More often what is used is “common sense”, a highly malleable mental construction based on pre-existing ideas like “if bilderbergers are out to get us then what are those trails in the sky – common sense tells you they must be poison or global warming mitigation, or probably both”.

By: In Awe

In Awe — Sat, 16 May 2009 23:32:19 +0000

Yeah, yeah, I know. Can’t you let a *little* unfairness creep in for the emperical side? It’s almost at the point where your resolute fairness is making _me_ suspicious!

But I realize I can be a little belittling on these subjects, which is why I keep complimenting you for your character.

My only point was that “logic” can suggest a more simple and direct connection between things, one that in this case wouldn’t lead one to naturally assume conduction is the more relevent explanation. The fact that it is cooler when no sun is in our sky can seem to “logically” support and entrench the original common sense conclusion, when in fact it’s wholly predicted and consistent under the radiation/conduction model as well. Thus “logic” (in this sense) is not the equivilent of truth, though it’s often purported to be by those who claim it as a tool equal to science.

But I’ll go back to my crabby tree and leave you to fight the good fight, making better points with your kindness than I can with mockery.

-mm

By: Uncinus

Uncinus — Sat, 16 May 2009 22:15:43 +0000

Well, to be fair, the sun IS directly responsible for a percentage of the heating of the atmosphere, mostly through the absorption of solar radiation by water vapor and particulates. The sun does give off heat, in the general sense of the word, but it’s probably more accurate to say it radiates, or gives off energy.

But yes, these are sometimes hard concepts for people to consider, especially if they lead to inconsitencies in their arguments.

By: In Awe

In Awe — Sat, 16 May 2009 21:48:43 +0000

Once again I am in awe of Unc, Jazz, SR and the others. I lack the character to tolerate the kind of stupidity that surrounds those who claim to understand science and then immediately demand you prove a negative, or claim to understand logic and then immediately make a Post hoc ergo propter hoc error.

…or assume propellers and jet engines are mutually exclusive.

Sadly, what stands out is the failure of our school system. There is no excuse for high-school graduates not understanding the difference between belief and fact, measurement and perception, theory and hypothesis, or why we have an inherited error of pattern-seeking that makes us believe our own intution so much that we’ve had to come up with this thing called “science” in order to have a method of arriving at truly objective conclusions.

The other standout to me is that many people don’t quite grasp what the word “logic” means.

I can’t count the number of people I’ve met who tell me “simple logic” is enough to tell them the sun is the object heating the air around them, and thus they don’t need science to answer such questions. Simple logic indeed!

When I point out that it’s actually the earth that heats the air, not the sun (and thus why it’s colder at altitude) I’m called “moronic”.

I ask for proof.

I get charts showing it’s colder at night!

Which they think proves the sun gives off “heat”!

OH MY!

Thanks again, Unc/Jazz/SR/et al

Ruder than you, thus prouder of you,
-mm, ASEL

By: Suntour

Suntour — Tue, 12 May 2009 03:31:18 +0000

It could be a coincidence, where in your line-of-sight you were watching TWO aircraft flying the same course, one higher than the other (and faster, with its body obscured by the plane beneath.)

Heh, that’s the direction I was going as well, I just wanted to get a bit more information before suggesting it.

By: JazzRoc

JazzRoc — Mon, 11 May 2009 09:18:38 +0000

Unknown:

The left trail was there for about 2 hours, while the right one was gone in minutes.

It could be a coincidence, where in your line-of-sight you were watching TWO aircraft flying the same course, one higher than the other (and faster, with its body obscured by the plane beneath.)
In fact, if it were painted a darker color it wouldn’t necessarily need to be obscured by the plane beneath, for “blue light scattering” would render it difficult, if not impossible, to see.