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How Long do Contrails Last?

Q) How long do contrails last?
A) According to all the books on clouds in the last 70 years, contrails last anywhere from less than a second, up to several hours. If depends on the atmospheric conditions at the altitude the plane is flying. It’s unrelated to the weather on the ground.

This is an oft-asked question. The answer is reasonably straightforward, but misunderstanding is common. To understand why a contrail can last as little as a fraction of a second, or as long as several hours, you need to understand what a contrail is, and how it forms.

Here’s another question, which has the same answer:

snowflakecvr2.jpgQ) How long does a snowflake last?

Why is this basically the same question? Because contrails are generally made of ice crystals. Jet exhaust contains a lot of water vapor (the chemical reaction actually produces more water than there was originally jet fuel), and when this gets shot out of the back of the engine at 2000MPH, it hits the frigid air (typically colder than -40 degrees), and the water vapor condenses and freezes, very quickly, into tiny ice crystals, just like snowflakes.

So why do these ice crystals sometimes stay around for a long time, and sometimes vanish in seconds? The temperature is well below freezing, so they can’t melt, can they? This is puzzling because it involves something that most people know nothing about “sublimation“.

Sublimation is when a substance (in this case, water), goes directly from being solid to being vapor (a gas), without actually melting into a liquid. It’s like evaporation, except instead of a liquid evaporating, it’s a solid (ice). If the air is dry (i.e. there is little water vapor in it), then the ice crystals will quickly sublimate into vapor, and the trail will vanish quickly.

However, if the air already has a lot of water vapor in it, then the ice will sublimate slower, and the trail will last longer.

If the air has so much water vapor in it already that it can’t hold any more (i.e. it’s “supersaturated”), then the ice crystals can’t sublimate, and so the contrail will stay around for a long time. The ice crystals might even attract water from the air, if there is enough, and the contrail will get thicker. Winds might make the contrail spread out to even cover the whole sky.

The above is a simplification, as other factors like temperature, pressure, and sunlight have an effect. But it explains the basic reasons why some trails last only a few seconds, and some can last for hours, and spread out to cover the sky.

Finally, there is one more way of asking the question:

Q) How long do clouds last?

This is the same question because contrails are clouds. Contrails are physically very similar to cirrus clouds (except they are long and thin), and so they act almost exactly the same. You see cirrus clouds that last for hours, so why not contrails?

References – note the dates

“A Color Guide to clouds” from Richard Scorer & Harry Wexler, 1963

1972: Richard Scorer – “Cloud of the worlds”

558 thoughts on “How Long do Contrails Last?

  1. Interesting spin on things there Vic. Does anyone consider this to be evidence that “chemtrails” are a real thing that has been going on for the last ten years or more, without any other country managing to notice it?

    If anything this UN report is pretty strong evidence that “chemtrails” (in the “persistent contrails are deliberate geoengineering” sense), are just a hoax, or a mistake. It’s quite explicite that they are talking about possible things that might happen in the future, and not things that have been going on for years.

  2. cgodinu says:

    Written by JazzRoc on October 31, 2010.

    cgodinu:

    I urge you to get tested for heavy metal poisoning. While you are at it, also test your soil and your water. You will find that it too has very high levels of aluminum and Barium along with other things not normally meant to be there.

    cgodinu, what is “normally” meant to be in “soil”?

    @ Jazzroc…. Only naturally occurring elements. Aluminum is a man made product and should not be showing up a levels thousands of times higher than it is. Also, the first test of spraying chemicals on the public happened in San Francisco during 1950.

    http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Military-Germs-US-Cities.htm

    http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1038118811,57464,.shtml

  3. cgodinu, if you would not expect aluminum to show up in soil, then why are all these pre-1950 books talking about the aluminum content of soil?

    And what do those 1950 tests have to do with high altitude spreading trails? Did they look at all similar? Were they high altitude? Did they spread out to cover the sky?

  4. Mike says:

    “Aluminum is a man made product ” – cgodinu

    no it isn’t – it is an element, #13 on the Periodic table, with standard atomic weight of about 27.

    aluminium toxicity in soil has been known for a very long time – there are studies of it as far back as 1920 (Aluminum as a factor in soil acidity. Soil Science 10: 153- 219. 1920).

    Aluminium makes up about 8% of the planet – it is the most common metallic element, and the 3rd most common element on the planet. It is present in all feldspar type soils, which comprise about 60% of all soils.

  5. Mike: that’s somewhat semantically arguable as aluminum does not exist in nature in the metal form, and has to be “man made” from alumina.

    However when soil scientists refer to “aluminum” in the soil, they are not talking about the metal form, but the compounds. That’s also what the various tests show. Nobody has found aluminum particles anywhere.

    And, minor point, aluminum makes up 8% of the Earth’s crust, not the earth as a whole, which has a lot more iron. Of course though it’s the crust that’s actually important to these test results. It’s also worth noting that 15% of the crust is alumina (Al2O3)

  6. Mike says:

    Yep – elemental metalic aluminium probably does not exist in nature, since “pure” aluminium oxidises instantly, and aluminium oxide is very stable.

    It is this reaction that makes aluminium “corrosion resistant” – actually it isn’t corrosion resistant in the strict sense of the term – but the corrosion product (Aluminium Oxide, Al2O3) forms a thin layer on the outside of the metallic aluminium, chemically bonded to it and protecting it. So it actually forms a protective layer for aluminium metal – whereas Iron rust, for example, will flake off, exposing more metal to corrosion.

    If the oxide layer is scratched down to the pure metal then the scratch surface oxides very quickly, again protecting the metal undernath.

    This is why aircraft aluminium sheet is almost exclusively “AlClad” in its construction – an aluminium alloy centre with about 10% of the sheet thickness both sides as “pure” aluminium. The cladding on the outside provides corrosion resistance for the alloy core.

    If you want to see spectacular aluminium corrosion put a drop of mercury onto a sheet of aluminium and stand back! 🙂 Well it’s not quite that bad, but it is very fast! But the “christmas tree” that results is very fragile, so for best effect put a glass upside down over the drop to protect from air currents.

    There are probably video’s out there of the result!

    Thanks for the correction on the crust/planet thing.

  7. Vic says:

    Chemtrails – The List of Patents For Stratosperic Arial Spraying Programs!
    [Admin – cut and paste removed]
    See the full article here: http://www.seektress.com/patlist.htm
    Short URL: http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=9344
    http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=9344

  8. TheFactsMatter says:

    Where is the evidence that ANY ONE of these patents has anything to do with the trails in the sky…which are OBVIOUSLY coming from the jet engines?!

    There are particles in the atmosphere from BILLIONS of sources…and some people like to study them because they enjoy science! Yet, certain people see this list of patents and jump to all sorts of conclusions…why?!

    Way too many assumptions here…

  9. Mike says:

    as always – patents do not mean that something has been built, let alone is actually in operation.

    Not to mention that subjects such as aerosol size are of importance in all sorts of real applications that have nothing to do with aircraft – fly spray, deodorants and fire suppression all spring to mind immediately.

    In fact looking through your list – the vast majority have nothing obvious to do with aircraft at all, while some of them actually have nothing at all to do with aerosols even – eg 5156802 – inspection of nuclear fuel, 5486900 – measuring device for toner in an “image forming device” – ie a printer.

    I have to conclude that you are just spam-bombing – reproducing vast amounts of data, much of it completely irrelevant, and expecting people to be impressed by the sheer volume.

    But that isn’t actually going to work here – we are going to look at your actual content, not just the amount of noise you make.

  10. petie says:

    I will only leave one comment. I know FOR A FACT there are MANY MANY MANY high level government/powers that be operations(against the good of humanity) taking place which are not open to mainstream public for obvious reasons. Some very high tech some just plainly obvious as chemtrails.
    Chemtrails have been in operation since the mid 90`s and growing!!!! Forget your education and start learning!!! “the only thing that interferes with my learning is my education” ~ Einstein.
    Reality is completely opposite from mainstream!!!! Stop listening to authority figures, forget mainstream education and start researching/learning. There are many sites, books, videos regarding chemtrails. Some hard to find but are still THERE and VERY real!!!! Here is a site with good info. One of many!!! http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies

    Humanity needs to wake up!!!! Thankfully this is slowly happening but in the end(current human existence) it will not matter as THEY have complete control over us… so TRY to enjoy this highly manipulated human experience while it lasts !!!
    Remember human beings are organic spiritual beings with infinite consciousness !!! PEACE

  11. TheFactsMatter says:

    “Reality is completely opposite from mainstream!!!!”

    Could you please explain how the science that easily explains the trails in the sky is actually the opposite of how things “really” are.

    I love how those without education are always the ones to devalue it.

  12. petie says:

    [Admin – removed one huge cut and paste from: http://www.truthism.com/ ]

    e.g. Did you ever consider Newtons law to be purposely incorrect? Hmmmm this opens a bit of a pandoras box doesn`t it!?

    BTW Their disinformation program is a $$$$$ elite organization working in full effect on many levels all around us.

    There is nothing more than intelligent design here.

    If you want to start understanding the TRUE nature of our existence, always best to start at the source, hunt down LLoyd Pye – Everything you know is wrong. This and many other presentations of similar content are constantly removed from the internet. Thankfully people put them back on again. As we speak there are only tidbits to be found atm but I will make the full version available upon request.
    Same goes for Carl Munck – The Code, revealing the truth behind the pyramids using advanced math – BRILLIANT! There are many many eye opening presentations to be found if you look hard enough. Find presentations and interviews from David Icke and Project Camelot.
    It goes on and on and on and on.
    I urge everybody to open their minds, fight conformity and get back to good ol common sense n logic n intuition instead of accepting controlled forced information. Everything has a true fundamental source if you look hard enough.
    Money, titles, labels, ego, judgment, assumptions, closed mindedness , conformity, selfishness, indulgence, constant pleasure seeking, celebrity, entertainment, war, conflict, confusion etc these are all what the ruling elite manipulate humanity with one way or another. They need to keep us dumbed down, entertained,busy, preoccupied with personal gain and titles and sickness.
    The sicker we are, the least we ask questions, the least we suspect, the more we consume ourselves with the small picture makes their agendas much easier. We live in a 100% corrupt world people!!! If everyone knew the truth we would take them down with numbers!!!
    Do the research connect the dots! There is a much bigger picture happening all around us with a very intelligent very deep HUGE agenda which essentially goes even further back from the time humans were designed! We need to look past the physical and get back to our essence of spirituality. Everything is Energy. Forget mainstream science, forget religion, forget evolution(biggest joke of all time) Lets start learning the truth!!! Then and only then will things like chemtrails become acceptable and common knowledge not really worth worrying too much about as we can`t do anything. They have everything planned in motion even the chance of mass rejection.
    Enter F.E.M.A
    http://forums.canadiancontent.net/us-american-politics/75066-truth-about-fema.html

    Want to start learning the truth about Iraq and what is really going on in Yemin gulf of Aden –
    Start here –
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22S2TNMf8v4

    Everything I am saying is not even close to the tip of the iceberg of what is really going on.
    There are more important things to learn about than chemtrails. They are making us sick in soo many different ways which serves their associated highly corrupt medical industry agenda in many ways. All chemical prescription drug do us harm. All chemicals in our air, water, food do us harm. All done on purpose. Most of the high level microbiologists suffer for helping their cause.
    http://www.rense.com/general62/list.htm

    They own and control everything at the high level. Research the rockefellas, the rothchilds, the bushes, the royals etc The ruling elite are NOT what or who you think at all!!! I have collected endless text videos transcripts etc over the years with my military buddies. All we can do is help others, especially the whistle blowers, spread the word for those that are confused or in denial or simply in the dark.
    There is a reason for everything nothing happens by magic. To the ruling elite we(humans) are merely a dispensable hybrid SLAVE race. The best slave is a slave that doesn’t know he is a slave. Hello ????
    Here is another example of how they work. Problem reaction solution. They create the problem. We react being unawares. They offer us a solution to the very problem they create in the first place. This serves them huge purpose while keeping the majority of us stuck in a false sense of security. They do this on a HUGE very shocking(to some) scale. Life or death – it doesn`t matter. Some of this is called “false flag operations” common knowledge throughout levels of the military – refer to Aaron Mcollum interview with Project Camelot above.
    Oh and U.F.O`s are merely anti gravity propulsion craft. We have been back engineering this technology, and them some, since the 40`s. The technology, and them some, was given to us in exchange for human abductions!!! Chemtrails are simply THE MOST EVIDENT example of all the crimes going on against humanity!!! Sometimes you can notice the huge dispersing chemtrail then all of a sudden it stops. You see nothing for a couple minutes then it starts again in full effect. This is just occupants of the craft changing the empty chemical canisters to the full ones. Then it starts again. Some craft have computer controlled automatic switching. Just notice their direction in accordance to normal flight paths. Jot down the exact time when sighted then check passenger flight times etc. It`s not hard. In Australia they take off from a secret air base in Woomera. They do their spraying then turn around over the coast and come back again. Sometimes numerous spraying craft crisscross and pass over one another breaking aviation laws. Looks like the pilots are having fun. A few times I thought they were going to collide haha. Anywayz I`m outa here.
    Have fun with your debate people. Just please do the research. Yes it takes a long time but it is better than being a sheep yes? Any Q please go ahead and ask even though I initially only intended to post once because I couldn`t help myself when coming across this forum by chance. Please don`t react to any of my comments until you do some research. Look at both sides. Yes I reluctantly went through the education process as most do.
    I had a huge problem with history and astronomy and questioned the science.
    EDUCATION IS NOT TRUE KNOWLEDGE!!!!

  13. Stupid says:

    Petie said…””Everything I am saying is not even close to the tip of the iceberg of what is really going on.””

    What burden that would be if I really knew the bottom half of the iceberg. I can’t even relax sailing by the “tip”.

  14. Mike says:

    “Everything I am saying is not even close to the tip of the iceberg of what is really going on.”

    True – it’s not actually on anything as concrete as an iceberg at all, given that in that entire rambling post you didn’t supply one observable fact or piece of verifiable evidence.

    It was just word spam. The conspiracy theorists seem to love such things – they overwhelm anyone who has a little bit of rationality with masses of garbage, and then cry victory when no-one can refute it….because it contains nothing!

  15. Stupid says:

    Petie, you recommend that we “look at both sides”.
    That is fair….and I have.
    Will you do the same ?
    Will you read this entire site ?

  16. petie says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gU9z6z9HIM&NR=1

    Someone put it back on. Watch this 12 part version above before it disappears again.
    Even the biggest skeptics I have shown have been very impressed. This information is a fundamental necessity to starting to understand our true origins. Who are we? What are we? Where do we come from? – based on the lifelong work of Zecharia Sitchin.
    From here it becomes much easier to understand other things that are going on.
    The main gist starts at about part 8 but Lloyd explains the lead up very thoroughly up to this point which is essential to understanding what he explains towards the end. Yes this information is backed up by many many leading researchers, scientists, teachers, professors etc of course they have to be careful.
    Dr Michael Salla was fired from teaching in a highly regarded Queensland university and has been lecturing in universities all around the US ever since. Check one of his presentations out here on Exopolitics. Best to start midway through part 5 onwards as he does not feature before this point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQh5nOyfU4g&feature=related
    He does allot of research on societies true infrastructure and the black budget.

    Michael Cremo is another to admire very much for his hidden archeology research.
    Great stuff.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkZDPjZH8RQ&feature=related

    John Lear has many buddies very high up and gets his hands on some great info. Here is one of his radio interviews. Anything from John is a must. Although the real skeptics may want to start with something from Richard Hogland.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efv-3E2a2Ug&feature=related

    I highly urge people to watch anything from Project Camelot and David Icke.

    http://projectcamelotportal.com/
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+icke&aq=f
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ZNw6v85So

    Chemtrails? ok this is a must see – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesBizPRBoU&feature=related

    If you really want to start at the very beginning then I recommend you start with Darwins Dilemma.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cetQ1aZ0E2U&feature=related

    How about we start at the beginning and try to understand the whole lead up to chemtrails etc Then it becomes much clearer. Newayz…..

    A very passionate fellow is Alex Jones. He has tones of great interviews/info as do all the others above and there`s so so much more people.
    More Chemtrail info here from Alex.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ZGrEENzVw

    For those that missed it. This Disclosure Project is getting old but at the time quite significant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk

    Then of course there is poor old Gary Mckinnon. He is going through hell… For what??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNsah-0vpY

    Bob Dean is a outstanding fellow. I have conversed with him numerous time. God bless him.
    Another must watch! Compelling.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbgHyrmgRZM&feature=channel

    Some good stuff here

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread505569/pg1

    I could sit here for weeks recommending things to see. It is up to YOU to do the research before attacking the truth messenger. Text sites and books are of course much more thorough(there are countless amounts) but you people usually only want video.
    I discussed some of these interviews with a body language expert and he stated “well all I can say is these people must be masters of deception or they are undoubtedly telling the truth” It is interesting watching politicians…. actually no it is a joke!
    Even worse are our puppet presidents. They are actually no where near the top of the pyramid regarding our ruling elite. This is enough for the time being. I need to go. Might check back next week. Peace

  17. Mr. Suntour says:

    petie said – “Do not let your mind get trapped within the religious or scientific paradigms. Religion and science are simply forms of control that were created by the ruling elite long before you were born. ”
    ——————————————————————————————-
    The only way you can include science in that statement is if you are completely ignorant of how science works. I quit reading after that statement because with the above statement in mind, the rest of your TLDR post must be based on ignorance.

  18. TheFactsMatter says:

    “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
    —Arthur Schopenhauer (German philosopher, 1788-1860)

    I LOVE how everyone with an opinion uses this quote as if it proves their side of ANY debate.

    When will YOU accept the truth about the trails in the sky?!

    Looks like you’re still on step 2.

    Sorry Petie…I couldn’t make it through your entire post. But, this is a site about science. Not speculation and assumption. The science that explains the trails in the sky is SOLID. It can easily be demonstrated in a lab. You can’t refute the facts. You can make all the claims you want, but the trails in the sky are persistent contrails. Until there is actual evidence to the contrary, persistent contrails they will remain.

    By the way, there is a PERFECTLY logical explanation why trails stop and start. It’s not the pilot flicking a switch either. But, no matter how much time I waste explaining the facts, you won’t accept the truth. So, I won’t waste my time.

    “I urge everybody to open their minds, fight conformity and get back to good ol common sense n logic n intuition instead of accepting controlled forced information. Everything has a true fundamental source if you look hard enough.”

    So, looking at the trails in the sky, common sense will tell us that the trails are full of chemicals?! Sorry, MY “common sense” tells me that the trails look suspiciously like natural clouds and that something about the atmosphere must be reacting with the discharge from the jet engines. I guess I “could” drop my education in this subject in favor of paranoid speculation and assumption…but I never will! I know too much about aviation and the atmosphere to take that backwards step.

  19. petie says:

    LOL The chems are not sprayed from the engines! Don`t believe the pictures or video. Go get some good binoculars so you can see for yourself.

    http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesBizPRBoU&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYyvk9Lp-A

    Ok so that settles that. Next topic?

  20. TheFactsMatter says:

    Written by petie on November 6, 2010.

    LOL The chems are not sprayed from the engines!

    No, but the trails are! It’s PAINFULLY obvious that the trail originates from the jet engines. I have seen it from a seat over a wing…I don’t need binoculars. Have you ever actually flown in an airplane before?! What could you possibly see from 30,000 feet with a pair of binoculars…ANY binoculars, that has convinced you that there are chemicals in the trails?! That’s absurd.

    “Ok so that settles that. Next topic?”

    Youtube videos/websites made by other conspiracy theorists aren’t proof of anything other than the fact that they know how to make videos/websites about their uninformed beliefs. The links you have posted are simply more chemtrailer propaganda. Complete bullshit.

  21. TheFactsMatter says:

    by the way Petie, what “chems” are you referring to? Specifically. And I’m not asking you to parrot what you’ve read and watched in conspiracy related media, I’m asking you what YOU have observed through your binoculars. What does your “common sense” tell you is IN the trails we all see…and I have seen for 40+ years?!

    How can you determine that there are any chemicals, other than water vapor and combustion gases, by looking at them?!

    What “chems” can you see?! Is this where you’re going to tell me to urge me to open my mind, fight conformity and get back to good ol common sense n logic n intuition instead of accepting controlled forced information?! So, all I have to do is “believe” there are “chems” in the trail and not bother having them analyzed with scientific equipment (mass spectrometry is evil!!!!) and just assume the “forced information” is wrong while accepting that my perception from 30,000 feet is fact?!

    Sorry, the ‘belief” that there are chemicals in the trails just isn’t enough for me.

    And telling me that you believe it because you’ve watched youtube videos and looked at the trails with binoculars doesn’t impress me all that much.

    And yes, I’m aware of the beliefs of many that the world is run by the NWO from behind the scenes..but, that has NOTHING to do with the trails in the sky. You can link all sorts of things together in YOUR mind, but that trails are a normal and well understood phenomenon of aviation, and nothing more…

  22. petie says:

    Yes the facts do matter!! How would you know what I`ve seen? If your brain processed a fraction of what I have seen I bet you(obviously) would pass out. I have a RPC pilot license and one of my heroes is JOHN LEAR. I posted one of his interviews and I urged everyone to watch as much JL as possible! But of course he is crazy(like the rest of us CT) because he and family have dedicated the rest of their lives to helping people see the truth.
    Ya it IS PAINFULLY obvious that CONtrails originate from the jet engines. What has that got to do with the chemtrails coming out of selected crafts spraying devices? Sometimes they are located under the craft sometimes on the rear or on the side. I have endless pics but I prefer pics of anti gravity propulsion craft myself which I have plenty of as well from good sources that would boggle and confuse your congested brainwashed mind forcing you further in denial. Yea I have been seeing NORMAL CONTRAILS up until about the year 2000. I still do see them as we all do. So ??
    Modern spotting scopes are fantastic. Yes I can see craft OK at 30,000 feet! No I do not base my knowledge on looking at boring chemtrail planes through binoculars. My military buddy has a pair that are clear as a bell at that range. We actually DO have the technology you know. There are a almost identical pair right now on Ebay if you want to buy them. They will cost ya.. Want me to direct you? Oh hang on Ebay is run by conspiracy theorists selling fake binoculars so you won`t like it there. Yep we ALL know Utube is chokas full of fake shit…. AND ?? If you bothered to check out the site below with it`s accompanied links
    http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies

    …..any half blind ignoramus can SEE regardless of personal experience. Oh but they are all fake as well. Analyzed with scientific equipment? Umm refer back to the aforementioned fake site. What kind of peanut asks what chems I have seen through binoculars? You expect someone to be able to describe what chems or viruses etc are present by peeking at a trail in the sky? Oh for god sake lol just go through that aforementioned site.
    I find it shit easy to determine the difference between water vapor and combustion gases opposed to a genuine chemtrail as do millions of other people I`m sure. I mean WOW it`s sooo obvious!!! My common sense tells me to believe what I see and use my powers of intuition and logic to look at the big picture and see if the dots connect. So after years of research and some past personal involvement in certain areas as well as being in contact with very good sources – there is 100% no doubt any more. Ok I use to be about 95% based on mainly intuition or gut feeling and reliable sources but I have to be certain before I talk. Unlike some people who just take corrupt authority figures word for everything then become a prized parrot . Well every so called conspiracy theory DOES CONNECT like clockwork actually!!! Chemtrails are such a small part of it, although quite high up in the black ops.
    I don`t even know why I am bothering here. Hmm maybe I have a feeling that some very needing individuals reading this site will truly benefit from my posts. Then it is worth it!
    I guess I am not the service to self type. The universe works in wondrous ways and I do feel very connected. Always have. And yes if some are wondering I AM a type O negative with past unwilling involvement in the Montauk experiments.
    This of course will not mean anything to some but definitely will to others.
    Umm you truly truly have no clue mate and that`s the way you choose to stay. Would you prefer I contact the puppet president on your behalf to try and persuade him to come clean to the public on national tv regarding the chemtrails? I`m sure he wouldn`t mind wrecking all the years of effort his masters have executed and f***ing up all the $$$ involved with the disinformation program plus opening up a plethora of attack on everything government not to mention signing his death warrant. Under the circumstances what do you want as proof? There actually is a overwhelming amount if you care to look and research. Sure it is easier for some than others especially those with personal experience but that`s no excuse.
    You are FULL of ignorance to the brim my friend. Pink Elephant in the room? Geez a child gaining disinformation watching tv for 1 day could retort just as well as you. Next you will tell me that fluoride is not a bio-accumulative toxic first introduced in the nazi camps to dumb down the prisoners so there is less chance of escape thus if effective to be . I bet you have been guzzling fluoridated tap water for 40+ years as well. That would explain a thing or two. This toxic poison does a hell of allot more than just clog up your Pineal gland and poison our thyroids but that is another whole story. Better to just believe the governments BS right. They love us sooooo much.
    Well I shall let you guys debate amongst yourselves over obvious and symptomatic topics.
    I actually have a life! Have fun going around in circles and retorting on topics you know NOTHING about other than what your corrupt authority figures choose to feed you.
    *rolls eyes for the tenth time today*
    Yes yes they are ALL definitely just contrails. Yes yes tv media and government based educational systems are all good and true. Oh and everything else I tried to share with u guys is just all part of us so called conspiracy theorists wacked out minds accompanied with severe boredom and our impressive video/website construction skills. Happy now?
    LOL
    As a mater of fact – If I roll these eyes any more I might get dizzy!

  23. TheFactsMatter says:

    Wow, another long-winded post of nothing! Great!

    “Ya it IS PAINFULLY obvious that CONtrails originate from the jet engines. What has that got to do with the chemtrails coming out of selected crafts spraying devices?”

    Oh please! Do you have any evidence that any such thing exists?! Or is evidence something that you also find no value in.

    I guess all you have to do is “believe” and then accept your beliefs as fact. POOF! Reality is created!

    “I have endless pics but I prefer pics of anti gravity propulsion craft myself which I have plenty of as well from good sources that would boggle and confuse your congested brainwashed mind forcing you further in denial.”

    No, what you have are images of things you don’t understand. You then create a reality in your head and accept it as fact. Go ahead and prove me wrong. You claim that I’m in denial, yet I have witnessed the creation of these trails from within a passenger plane. I know they are contrails and I know you are wrong.

    ALL trails are “normal” contrails. It doesn’t matter if they last a few seconds or a whole day! The atmospheric conditions determine how long a trail will last. It’s a very well understood concept. Just not by you.

    “Under the circumstances what do you want as proof? ”

    I want a trail to be tested. That’s the ONLY way to know for sure. Pretending that anything found on the ground came from a trail is just silly! And suggesting that one can know there are “chemicals” in a trail just by what it looks like from the ground, is equally silly.

    “My military buddy has a pair that are clear as a bell at that range. We actually DO have the technology you know.”

    You guys always seem to have “military buddies” with powerful binoculars that can see 5-7 miles….I love it! Yeah, we as a species have the technology, you as an individual, do not. If you did, you’d see there are no unusual devices on any plane in which trails like this are created. Until you actually provide any evidence to the contrary, I call BULLSHIT! I’d also be willing to bet that what you have seen has an explanation you are completely ignorant about. There are many types of aircraft with unusual protrusions, tubes, pods and whatnot attached to them. I have a feeling that you wouldn’t understand much about these airplanes because you find no value in learning about such things and prefer to make assumptions based on gut feelings and the nonsense you have been fed from OTHER people who couldn’t be bothered to learn the facts. It actually no wonder you know nothing about aviation.

    “What kind of peanut asks what chems I have seen through binoculars? ” YOU made the claim and you brought up the binoculars. And you aforementioned site is a conspiracy site. Sorry, reading crap from paranoid people doesn’t impress me much.

    I’ve read it all…and it’s nonsense.

    “I mean WOW it`s sooo obvious!!! ” Yet, you are so very wrong! Imagine that!

    “My common sense tells me to believe what I see and use my powers of intuition and logic to look at the big picture and see if the dots connect.”

    Just as it’s obvious the world is flat and that the Earth is the center of the universe…I get it! Sorry, you are making a huge mistake in assuming that you have enough knowledge and intelligence to dismiss the the science that has resulted from millions of man hours and hundreds of thousands of scientists over several decades who have dedicated their lives to understanding the facts about the atmosphere and aviation. Judging from your posts you are the type of person that will convert belief into fact without any reason to do so. I don’t pretend that I have the slightest hope in helping you. Then again, I don’t actually want to help you. I’m just here to defend the good word of aviation from those who can’t be bothered (or are too delusional) to learn the facts. I know you’re wrong…even if you never will.

    “I actually have a life! ”

    I guess you could call being afraid of water vapor and spreading ignorance a la Chicken Little a “life”.

    “As a mater of fact – If I roll these eyes any more I might get dizzy!”

    I’d be willing to be that you get dizzy getting out of bed in the AM! Even stirring your coffee must cause you to pass out!

    Seeya soon!

  24. Don’t fall into the long post trap.

    petie has been placed in moderation for comment spam – copying huge chunks into his comments from other sites. Any more walls of text about the illuminati, etc, will be deleted. Stick to science please.

    He claims to have clear photos of planes spraying something in a suspicious manner. If he can post a DIRECT LINK to the photos or email them ([email protected]), then we can go from there. Other than that it seems his approach is to first ask that we watch every extreme conspiracy youtube video out there before he deems us capable of conversation.

    Photos, or it didn’t happen.

  25. Petie, you attempted to post again about how we should all wake up, etc. I deleted it. Please post some photos of the chemtrail spraying that you claim to have.

  26. petie says:

    What is wrong with copying links from websites ??????? Geez you guys are amazing.
    I have many pictures which are not very clear – nothing like you can`t see already all over the net! We never cared much for taking photos of chemtrail planes. We see lots of them here every day at different times. Then all of a sudden they stop for weeks at different times of the year. Bingo then they start again. You can get nice resolution pics from some sites. Then you can get them professionally analyzed if you wish. Most of our pics and video footage are of anti gravity propulsion craft from trips through the Northern Territory near Pine Gap.
    If a bunch of you guys really want to see some of our stuff then we can work something out. No probs.
    Our pics will not be anything better at all than what is already available though.
    If you only want to see chemtrail pics then the sites I provided show the best pics.
    There are ways to check the authenticity if you want to go to the effort.
    Alternatively you can keep carrying on like a bunch of F****ing babies.

    Peace

  27. TheFactsMatter says:

    Yeah, I’d like to see some of those myself.

    The problem is that no matter what he posts, the information we will use to explain what he posts is, by his own admission… unbelievable. You and I would see maybe a refueling pod and he’ll see some sort of spray machine, undoubtedly from that list of patents that’s been floating around. Something that we are unaware of simply because we accept the education in the subjects that we have gotten (regardless of where we learned, in a classroom or self taught using the same information from the curriculum). You and I won’t be aware of the TRUE nature of what he posts because we were too stupid and decided to “properly educate ourselves” with what was purported to be fact, but was, as has been pointed out, the opposite of reality. In other words, we simply accepted the wrong information as fact.

    How can someone like that be reasoned with? No matter what is presented, they won’t accept it. You could make a video of a sample being collected and tested..all in one take with no editing….and show there is nothing in the trail/trails and it wouldn’t be enough. You could allow THEM to be the one in the video collecting the sample and overseeing the analysis…and they still wouldn’t accept the reality that they are wrong. They are forever suspicious and won’t allow anyone but like minded individuals influence them. Again, how does one help someone like that?! Yeah, it’s a bit rhetorical…but, if you have an answer…please do enlighten me!

  28. Petie, why can’t you provide one link to one photo that shows what you claim? Is there no photo on the entire internet that you think conclusively shows this spraying?

  29. TFM, based on what petie has said and linked to (Davide Icke videos, etc), I don’t think we’ll be changing his mind. But if he can’t produced the evidence that he claims exists, then it demonstrates to others that his claims are baseless.

    So, petie, why can’t you point out any particular photos of planes spraying?

  30. And for examples of clear photos taken of planes from the ground, see here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpro747/

    Taken with a cheap Dobsonian telescope.

    So why can’t the chemtrail theorists produce any photos like that?

  31. TheFactsMatter says:

    “…then it demonstrates to others that his claims are baseless. ”

    Which is what I was trying to accomplish with my comments about education, or lack thereof.

    Yeah, as rotten as it sounds, at times these people need to be exposed for what they are…___________(fill in the blank with what fits the politeness policy. I admit, I’m not polite. no reason to be).

    Those are some nice images of passenger jets leaving persistent contrails. The ones I’ve seen from their side are always out of focus and digitally zoomed. It’s almost as if it’s intentionally done so people aren’t able to see the markings. Even then, the standard reply is that these are “chemplanes” disguised to look like passenger jets. Oh, that sneaky government!

    Again, ya just can’t win.

    Is Petie trying to post any images? I’m curious about what he feels is evidence of “chem-planes”.

  32. Petie has not tried to post or link to any images of spraying planes. He just says “You can get nice resolution pics from some sites.”. However his links, like this one http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies just show the usual collection of contrails – all quite clearly coming from the engines.

    So he’s either lying, or mistaken, regarding the “spraying devices”. Clearly it’s quite impossible for an operation with thousands of flights a day to go on for ten years, and yet nobody has managed to take a photo.

  33. petie says:

    [Admin – post edited for length]

    I have supplied links to many wonderful sites giving us a great deal of information and pictures etc. Show us ONE photo!

    Show us all ONE photo BEFORE 1995 that shows ANYTHING such as the crisscrossing lingering widening VERY slowly dissipating trails as displayed on http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies JUST ONE PHOTO BEFORE 1995!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes we all know you can`t because there is no such thing. How can there be? Oh, and now of course this means that SUDDEN changes in atmospheric conditions since 1995 have caused this so called phenomena. OR the pics are fake.

  34. Okay, here’s one photo, from “A field guide to the atmosphere”, 1981

    I’ll give you two, but of course there are many more.

    Now you show me one that shows this spraying apparatus that apparently has been spraying trails since 1995, but nobody has every managed to take a photo of.

  35. petie says:

    THEY have been playing with/testing these chemicals for ages. As a previous poster has shown us!
    All your sources are simply YET AGAIN government controlled disinformation. The chemtrail program has been in the works since many decades ago. They always do testing well in advance and pass it to the public as something else explaining away all their bogus science. Two birds with one stone. They are efficient like that.
    They do this in controlled airfield restricted areas all over the world.
    How do you know what you are showing us are not ACTUALLY chemtrails?

    I mean I want authentic public pics.

    E.G. over a city or communal area that look like pics from that site in question!
    Pics taken by some innocent civilian not someone associated with the program to any extent.

    We are all aware that some contrails in specific atmospheric conditions altitude etc can separate to an extent and linger. But NOTHING to the extent of what we have been witnessing in communal areas since 1995>

    Your pics do not mean anything at all!
    Government agencies push all sorts of rubbish on us with no restriction.
    They do as they please. They show us what they please. It all gets published with out a problem. It always has to fit into our perceived paradigm. Very much like doctored/airbrushed moon pics. Or similar pics taken in studios made to look like the real thing. This is common knowledge.
    You think you know ALL about aviation law? I would check that again. You are saying it is legal or normal for numerous passenger planes to fly in the same air space at similar altitudes at the same time whilst leaving incredible looking crisscross trails everywhere?
    Umm ok. Good stuff mate!

  36. You said that the trails do not come from the engine, yet you’ve been unable to produced a single photo of this happening. If it were happening then you would be able to get a photo. So it’s not happening.

    Your request for highly specific pre-1995 personal photos is ridiculous. People did not take that many photos before the advent of digital cameras, and most of them are in photo albums tucked in a closet somewhere. You might as well say that sidewalk gum spots did not exist before 1995 because you can’t find any pre-1995 photos of it. Of course it’s easy to find more recent photos, or just go out and take one.

    But NOW, why can’t you produce a single photo of what you claim is in plain sight?

  37. captfitch says:

    Petie- what steps do you take to avoid the ingestion of any chemtrail products? Respirator? Gas mask? How about your home? Is it sealed? What about what you eat- do you grow it yourself? Is your water safe to drink?

    If you’re concerned about what the government is doing shouldn’t you be protecting yourself? Is it wise to show such dissent on a public message board?

  38. TheFactsMatter says:

    “But NOW, why can’t you produce a single photo of what you claim is in plain sight?”

    YEAH!
    I have witnessed the creation of thousands of long lasting trails in the sky, and in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE the trail has originated from the jet engines. If it’s “so obvious” that the trails are being sprayed from some other part of the plane, where are the photos!?! I call bullshit…again!

    Or is that sneaky old government only making it LOOK like it comes from the engines by using “holograms” and “mind controlling juice”.

    Gimme a break.

    “You are saying it is legal or normal for numerous passenger planes to fly in the same air space at similar altitudes at the same time whilst leaving incredible looking crisscross trails everywhere?”

    Why wouldn’t it be legal?! As long as the maintain minimal separation or do what the controllers tell them to do…of course it’s “legal”. And flight paths cross all the time. Of course their contrails will cross!

    To be honest, I don’t trust anyone 100%…including “The Government”. But, that doesn’t mean the trails are anything more than persistent contrails. Chemtrailers make the claims and it’s up to them to provide the evidence. So far, EVERY SINGLE BIT of “evidence” the chemtrailers have provided about “chemtrails” has been nothing of the sort. Every photo they claim to be a “spray device” has always turned out to be something completely benign and typical on the type of aircraft they are photographing. Come on Petie! Be the first to provide some ACTUAL evidence! With all the claims of “chemtrails”, there has to be some kind of compelling evidence out there…somewhere! It can’t ALL be ignorance about aviation and the atmosphere! Break the mold petie!

  39. Persisting and Spreading Contrail. Mt Hood, Oregon, October 1964, Ed’s JG Photos

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2745667710/

    Mt Hood, July 15th 1985, Rob DeGraff

    Mt Shasta, 1989, Taylor Sherman

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/taylorsherman/116270547/

    1995, Mirror Lake, Oregon

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/headovmetal/1818649060/

    1991, Oregon, Coos Bay, Jonathan Harel

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathan_harel/390065782/

    1985. Tahoe

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/danakirk/992439911/

    1986. Mt Whitney, California

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtnjohn/2390506075/

  40. Sorry, just adding a few more for fun.

    Mount Adams, September 1987.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4126452414/

    North Vancouver, 1989

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianalexandermartin/439381937/

    Paris, March 31, 1983, OliBac

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/olibac/1255066630/

    Oregon, 1990, mdintenfass

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdint/3470370301/

    1986, March 8. London, England.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil_p/4317237037/

    1989, May. Echo_29, Nigh time contrails cas shadows on the clouds.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/echo_29/543520305/

    1988, Prague

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/huebner-and-lamb/4314581429/

  41. Anonymous says:

    petie’s very first words were…

    “I will only leave one comment.”

    lol

  42. TheFactsMatter says:

    I don’t understand what posting pictures of trails from the past is supposed to accomplish. The chemtrailers claim such pictures don’t exist and anything that is presented as such will just be dismissed as “fake’ or “lies”. They’ll claim the pictures are simply newer pictures which are purported to be older than they actually are. Unless they are pictures from books that were published/printed before the year the chemtrailers first noticed the trails (1998, I believe is when William Thomas first invented the word “chemtrails” to replace the word they were known as up to that point) . I could have taken millions of pictures in the 60’s and 70’s but I didn’t think they’d be so valuable in the future. Even if I had taken pictures, and had them to offer today, the chemtrailers are just so suspicious of EVERYONE (isn’t there another word for that?!) that they’d refuse to believe that the pictures are real anyway.

    There is simply no way to prove the trails aren’t “chemtrails”. That’s the way the hoax was designed.

  43. Mike says:

    Isn’t the common TV theme for a hoax to “follow the money”? so who is it who perpetrates this hoax on the public – who is making the money?

  44. captfitch says:

    I think you can buy a “chembuster” on the web. It works pretty well actually. Aim the chembuster at the chemtrail and after a short time the trail will no longer be over your house. 29.99 for a limited time only.

  45. Steve says:

    This guy is making money on the chem-trail hoax.
    http://www.realityzone.com/currentperiod.html
    Check out the forum section for some real laughs as he defends the chem-trail hoax.

  46. TheFactsMatter says:

    I’m very familiar with G Edward, and his lovely assistant Joan Glover. I had a lovely encounter with Joan by e-mail this week. Notice the story about “william” on that very site…under “unfiltered Forum”. That’s me:)

    Of course, the replies posted on there were never actually sent to me by e-mail…and I’m just reading them now. Comedy gold!

  47. TheFactsMatter says:

    Notice the link he asks me to look at.

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone/UFNchemtrailorcontrail.html

    How many mistakes can YOU find?!

    Also, notice how he says:

    “On the other hand, if you can locate atmospheric scientists who are not tainted by the very industry we are exposing, please let me know so we can include them in any follow-up work we may do. At the very least, I would publish their analyses in Unfiltered News – yes, even if they do not agree with ours. All we ask is that they not be on the payroll, directly or indirectly, of governments or the geo-engineering industry. Fair enough?”

    In other words, it’s up to us to “prove” that a scientist isn’t working for “them”. It’s absolutely RIDICULOUS!

    So, if a government grant is used to conduct the research, the research is bogus…in every case. How can anyone reason with this mindset?! They have an excuse for everything.

  48. TheFactsMatter says:

    What about the atmospheric scientists who figured out what persistent contrails were back in the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s and all the way until the ‘chemtrail” theory first hit the news?! Were they all “in on it” also?! This man has basically admitted that he has never consulted an expert in this field simply because he doesn’t trust them….any of them! Thousands of men and women from all around the world (and through several decades of time) are “pretending” to be interested in the actual science of the atmosphere only so they can be involved in the “secret government chemtrail spray program”. And that also goes to show that they have NO properly educated sources for the information for the What in the World are they Spraying movie! NONE!

    Let’s face it..this man wants to be able to sell his books to a specific crowd..and those of us who question him are messing with his livelihood! Just as with those who sell “chembusters”.

  49. Mike says:

    I’m new to this concept of Chemtrails poisoning. I’m not 100% sure what side of the fence I’m on and although there is evidence that testing has been requested and/or done before the US law changed regarding the ability to do secret testing on US citizens a few years back, I’m just surprised no one has taken a telescope and recorded one of these planes up close. I hope this doesn’t come across as rude but I’m just looking for some solid evidence and not pictures of Boeing test planes.

  50. I don’t understand what posting pictures of trails from the past is supposed to accomplish. The chemtrailers claim such pictures don’t exist and anything that is presented as such will just be dismissed as “fake’ or “lies”.

    Again, the intent in exposing errors is not necessarily to get the other person to admit they are wrong. Many people are “true believers” who are psychologically incapable of changing their positions, even in the face incontrovertible evidence against those beliefs.

    The intent (my intent) is to demonstrate the errors to a wider audience, particularly people like Mike, above, who are on the fence, or new to the idea. Because simple statement like “there are no persistent contrail photos prior to 1999, I don’t remember any, do you?” can be quite seductive.

    With an hour or so of searching Flickr, I found twenty photos from independent people who simply scanned in some of their old photos, dating prior to 1995. To any reasonable person this is incontrovertible evidence that the persistent spreading contrails are not new, or particularly noteworthy. Sure, it’s not going to change peties mind, but it might help Mike make a more informed decision.

  51. JazzRoc says:

    The Facts:

    Of course, the replies posted on there were never actually sent to me by e-mail…and I’m just reading them now. Comedy gold

    Not so funny.
    More an example of how to lose points for our side.
    Surely it would have been better to ask simple questions until you received a logically-unsatisfactory answer, rather than lead with a string of abusive statements, which provided them with all the ammunition they needed?
    You shot, missed, and handed THEM the gun…

  52. TheFactsMatter says:

    Jazzrock, I don’t have any respect for you. You have backstabbed me enough and I don’t value your opinion anyway.

  53. TheFactsMatter says:

    So, what about this is abusive:

    “An education in atmospheric science and aviation would go VERY far to clear up the confusion about the trails in the sky. These are NOT trails of chemicals used for ANY purpose. They are simply trails of frozen water vapor (man made clouds) created by steam from the jet engines encountering specific conditions. It bothers me that actual atmospheric scientists weren’t consulted for your movie. The chemtrail hoax was designed to create the most panic possible knowing that certain individuals would accept the bad information as “fact”, and run with it!

    I’m sorry, but no one is “spraying” anything. And natural elements found on the ground come from natural sources/processes. Finding aluminum on a mountain top, then looking up and seeing the trails, does NOT tell you the source of that aluminum! It pains me to know that so many have fallen for this hoax. I hope that in time, those who have accepted the hoax as fact will take the time to learn the truth about the trails in the sky. There are so many actual problems that we shouldn’t ignore. Focusing on “chemtrails” is a huge mistake when there are so many REAL problems to worry about.”

    The next thing they posted was not sent as something to be posted in public, and yes, I was aggravated that something labeled as an “Unfiltered Forum” Wouldn’t just allow that post. There is nothing inflammatory in it and it should have been allowed.

    The reply I received from his assistant certainly wasn’t posted! Where she threatened to “drop kick” me because I’m speaking out against the “sweetest and most intelligent man (she) has ever met!. I’m sorry, I DO get a little pissed off about this whole thing! It’s a fucking nightmare! These people are sick and they need to know it! G Edward Griffen ADMITTED that not a single atmospheric scientist was consulted for “What in the World are the Spraying” only because he doesn’t trust a single one of them…in the entire world…because they are all probably “in on it”. I’m sorry, but that is DIRECT evidence of severe paranoia. Again, you folks can dance around the bottom line all you want, and pretend that you are actually doing more work to help these people than I am. But, I see no evidence. I’m not even sure I believe the whole Bard of Ely thing! It wouldn’t surprise me if you made it up just to have the appearance of being helpful. Regardless, “The Bard” is a VERY rare case! Not many folks who “believe” the trails to be made of chemicals will be swayed by logic. The diehards will ALWAYS “believe” that we are trying to manipulate them. But, go ahead and call ME the bad guy for speaking out directly against these sick people! Go ahead and continue to dance around the REAL issues here and continue to post the facts where chemtrailers can continue to deny them. I’m sorry, I’m sick of repeating the same thing over and over again and again. These people need help, and tip-toeing around that issue is helping NO ONE!

    Why can’t you let me be, and have my type of conversation with those who are willing to converse with me?! Your condemnation of me doesn’t help all that much either! we are supposed to be on the same side here. I have seen you make some very nasty remarks on youtube. Stop pretending that you are so much better than me, Jazzrock. I see no evidence of any such thing.

  54. TheFactsMatter says:

    And yes, I am WELL aware of the fact that this site is to be run the way Uncinus wants it to be. And when he bans me, I will stop asking paranoid people to seek help.

  55. JFDee says:

    @Facts:
    Hmm, somehow I still think your “type of conversation” does not fit in here. And as it seems I am not alone with that opinion.

    Why can’t you find a place where you can tell people that they are sick ? You enjoy this, as I remember, so why not start your own blog ?

  56. TheFactsMatter says:

    Fine, I can take the hint.

  57. I’d prefer not to ban you. But I think you don’t get it. Perceived personal attacks are something I try to filter out of this site from those on the side of science and reason. I personally think that it’s way more effective (in net, over everyone, not just the person you are talking to) to show someone they are wrong, rather than tell them.

    Show them where they are wrong, in a nice polite way, and it will be perfectly apparent to them that some more investigation, or even education, on their part might be needed. But tell them they are wrong, and they will go shields up, and the neutral reader will only see conflict.

    I appreciate you’ve tried your impolite confrontational approach elsewhere, but calling people uneducated chemtards seems ultimately counterproductive, no matter what your goal is.

  58. Why don’t you just try being polite for a week? See how you like it.

  59. TheFactsMatter says:

    “Why don’t you just try being polite for a week? See how you like it.”

    Maybe I don’t know how to be!…Maybe this is my personality. Are you going to condemn me because of my personality, while letting the chemmies slide because of theirs?! I guess one mental illness deserves more consideration than another. I admit it…I’m absolutely NUTS about this subject! And when uneducated assholes tell me that I need to be “educated” to be just like them and then accuse me of being in on the conspiracy if I don’t, I need to let them know my opinion about that. Being nice aint an option at that point, in my opinion. Yeah, you don’t get worked up about it…GREAT! I wish I were just like you in that respect, but I’m not. And neither is Jazzrock!

    Besides, I had tried the reasonable approach before, for a long time. It didn’t seem to matter. They were just as rude to me as they are now. Just as they are rude to you.

    This AM I was simply set-off by Jazzrock pretending to be on his high horse. He’s a hypocrite If I’ve ever met one. I’d actually prefer that you ban me because I obviously don’t fit in with your plans and it would alleviate the problem (me). I admittedly don’t have the self control I need to play nice here. I think I’ve proven that. You’d be doing me a huge favor. I won’t be tempted to waste huge chunks of my time in an effort to help people who don’t want my help.

    Yeah, I get it…I’m a mean nasty prick for telling it like it is. I understand what you are trying to do here and I don’t want to get in the way of that.

    I have absolutely no problem with you banning me if you feel it’s the best way to keep me from being disruptive. I’m certainly NOT going to be nice to people who can’t be bothered to be nice to me. Let’s just accept that as a fact!

  60. captfitch says:

    Facts- I’m often driven to some point of anger on this site but I actually have a dog in this hunt as many of the claims state that the pilots who are flying the chemplanes are either in on the whole thing or too stupid to know they are part of the operation.

    What is your general motivation? It can’t be for the sake of upholding scientific truth or process because the process itself is not defeated in the face of incoherent claims. In fact, one might argue that such outrageous claims actually strengthen the scientific process by showing how abandoning the science leads no where.

  61. TheFactsMatter says:

    The love of aviation and defending the good name of aviation is my motivation. Do I need any more than that? And scientific truth IS defeated if the majority ever accepts the chemtrail hoax as fact. If you don’t believe that, why bother wasting your time with these people? If scientific truth is so secure, why not just let the chemmies go about their business?! Why should ANYONE’S opinion be scrutinized if, behind the scenes, “the process itself is not defeated in the face of incoherent claims”.

    We might as well just sit back and watch them spread their beliefs if scientific fact is so secure.

    ” In fact, one might argue that such outrageous claims actually strengthen the scientific process by showing how abandoning the science leads no where.”

    Yeah, they strengthen it only for those who accept the scientific process as a road to the truth. That doesn’t help the chemmies one little bit. They don’t believe in the science because they are unable to trust scientists or science in general. They “believe” all of science has been tainted by “the government” and you and I are simply sheep who follow the their words..blindly. How could you possibly defend the truth against people with that mindset?! In my opinion, it would be best to ignore them altogether! That’s what they deserve.

  62. TheFactsMatter says:

    “I personally think that it’s way more effective (in net, over everyone, not just the person you are talking to) to show someone they are wrong, rather than tell them.”

    So, offering your beliefs as a replacement for their beliefs isn’t telling them they are wrong? I think what you mean is that we need to “show” them that we are right, not that they are wrong…and that the facts, as they are presently understood by basic science, favor OUR beliefs on the subject.

    The evidence you supply is ALWAYS going to be “disinformation”. The books and websites you glean it from will always be government controlled disinformation books/sites….ALWAYS! You aren’t “showing” them anything more than mumbo-jumbo and gibberish…as far as they can tell.

    For instance, there is a woman on youtube who swears that a lot of the cloud names we use today are “new” and that certain clouds didn’t exist in the past. When shown that these clouds were indeed represented in older books and , she claimed that “the government” somehow replaced the images in the older books with images of the newer type clouds. And her followers agreed with her, wholeheartedly. How is “showing” anything to these people, in any form of media, going to help them when they are unable to comprehend that the information is truthful? I’m not being a wise ass here. I really want to know.

    How can you show someone like this, that they are wrong? Persistence? Everything you offer as evidence will be, in their minds, tainted. You do realize that you are well known through their community as one of the biggest “disinformationalists” out there…right?

    So, is this site just for the fence sitters?

    That was rhetorical…

  63. Do you understand the concept of a “True Believer”?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

    True-believer syndrome is a term coined by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged. Keene considered it to be a cognitive disorder, and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many psychic mediums.

    No, you usually can’t convert a true believer. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m providing information and reasoned arguments to people open minded enough to consider alternatives.

    Yes, if you want to put it that way, this site is just for fence sitters. The “true believers” act as foils. If a fence sitter sees you simply appearing to shout down a true believer, then they might be less inclined to listen to what you are actually saying.

    Look at it from their perspective:

    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/bridging_the_chasm_between_two_cultures/

    In the seventies, Uri Geller became popular. My first real contact with someone in the skeptical culture was watching James Randi on television, just tearing Geller to bits. I didn’t understand what was happening. Uri Geller appeared on the Mike Douglas show and on the Merv Griffin show, and you could clearly see him perform his paranormal feats right there on television. Surely Mike and Merv wouldn’t be involved in lying to the public? I really didn’t understand what Randi’s problem was with Geller, and my friends and I thought Randi was very vitriolic. I didn’t learn about critical thinking from Randi—what I learned was that some people just had it in for healers and people with paranormal gifts. I know he would not like to hear this, but it’s still true: James Randi’s behavior and demeanor were so culturally insensitive that he actually created a gigantic backlash against skepticism, and a gigantic surge toward the New Age that still rages unabated.

    I certainly understand and support James Randi’s anger, frustration, and even vitriol now (especially after having lived through the New Age for so many decades), but all I could see then was a very sarcastic man who seemed to attack Geller personally.

  64. JazzRoc says:

    Facts, you may think I’m hypocritical if you wish, but I don’t think I am.
    I still sympathize with you most deeply, and enjoy almost everything you write, and a good half of me says “YES!” when you make a good point.
    I just don’t think aggression wins this battle, and I hate to see you lose. I’m a fan.

  65. TheFactsMatter says:

    “No, you usually can’t convert a true believer. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m providing information and reasoned arguments to people open minded enough to consider alternatives.”

    Fair enough…

  66. TheFactsMatter says:

    “I just don’t think aggression wins this battle, and I hate to see you lose.”

    It’s your opinion that I have ‘lost” in some way. I disagree.

  67. MikeC says:

    Why are y’all arguing about comments made on another site?

    (The same “Mike” who posted the comments about aluminium & the money trail above, but a different one from the one who started his post “I’m new to this concept of Chemtrails poisoning”, so I shall call myself MikeC from now on)

  68. Petie seems to have gone after I posted all those photos.

    I’ve inserted them all into the “Contrail Photos Through History” for easy reference

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/

  69. TheFactsMatter says:

    Well MikeC, apparently I needed to be slapped back a bit for being so proud of my abusive nature.

  70. TheFactsMatter says:

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone/UFNchemtrailorcontrail.html

    Again, how many mistakes can YOU find?! G Edward has admitted that he doesn’t trust scientists.

    I think it shows.

  71. Stupid says:

    Facts, you are alright….you are OK.
    You are good at heart.
    Just keep things in check……re-read things before you post.
    I have to do that as well, trust me, because….
    I also get annoyed by people who ignore science (and the obvious).
    I’d rather not exhibit, that they “got my goat” because of the way they think…..
    ….the key part is, “the way THEY think.”
    Their thinking should not affect mine.

    Those “sitting on the fence” do need some help when deciding which side to land their feet on.
    So by politely stating facts, this will hopefully allow those reasonably open thinkers….to place their foot on a reasonable side.

  72. Stupid says:

    Yes, Petie’s position could only last as long as his/her path was unimpeded with those silly obstacles of reason and truth.
    Reason and truth, are not run by any government.

  73. TheFactsMatter says:

    Yeah yeah, I get it…

    Thanks.

  74. airplane master says:

    that’s not right, becuase airplanes fly ONLY because that cut the air, not cuz of that that stuff that was said befor, i’m know as that air plane master cuz i know so much about airplanes i know then anyone,

  75. TheFactsMatter says:

    “that’s not right, becuase airplanes fly ONLY because that cut the air, not cuz of that that stuff that was said befor, i’m know as that air plane master cuz i know so much about airplanes i know then anyone.”

    Mr Griffin?!

  76. TheFactsMatter says:

    Hey Vic, I have to wonder why you posted that link. Are you suggesting that anything about that link proves “chemtrails”?

    I hope not.

    Aerosols have billions of sources and this study has nothing to do with the trails in the sky.

    Well, increased aerosols mean increased CCN (Cloud condensation nuclei) so there are more trails as well as more clouds in certain areas. But, the planes aren’t intentionally spraying anything into the air. No more so than any car is intentionally spraying anything into the air.

    If you are posting this because you believe it has anything to do with the trails in the sky, I suggest you refer to page 1 where they explain the sources of aerosols. This is also explained on page 9 at the beginning of chapter 1.

    If you are posting this for informational purposes, thanks!

  77. Vic says:

    Spraying the Skies: 1975 U.S. Patent for Powder Contrail Generation

    Posted in this story is a very interesting PDF available for download here for a 1975 U.S. Patent issued to Donald K. Werle, Romas Kasparas, Sidney Katz, assigned through the U.S. Navy, that describes a dispersion method for a “powder contrail.”

    As other researchers have also pointed out, the Powder Contrail Generation patent document could be a useful clue into the true agenda and purpose of the “chemtrail” phenomenon, which is clearly tied to almost a century of man-made weather manipulation. Already, it is admitted that the government has experimented with geo-engineering, which is says would help reflect heat and combat phony global warming / climate change.

    Article Dec-5th-2010
    http://www.infowars.com/spraying-the-skies-1975-u-s-patent-for-powder-contrail-generation/

  78. MikeC says:

    Or it could be a pointer to how the greys intend to battle the reptiloids for control of hte NWO.

    But likely it is neither. Most likely it is, as the patent says, and attempt to do away with burning oil to get a visible trail from an aircraft – ie to make a visible trail without needing a heat source.

    I’m amused by this oft quoted “Already, it is admitted that the government has experimented with geo-engineering” or similar – and then the linked article further links to one that says that cloud seeding is geo-engineering.

    The goal posts keep shifting……

  79. ruffneck says:

    I watched a program on the box a while back, its was called Is That Weird or What, hosted by William Shatner. One subject on the show was about 20lb chunks of ice falling from the sky and crashing through some ladys house into her kitchen and smashing the hell out of her stove, some guys car got it too. Any ideas on how these ice meteors were formed. Now if it wasnt good old star treky himself telling the story I would not have believed that this could happen without a large hail storm in the area, any thoughts?

  80. Your name says:

    Well this doesn’t explain away chemtrails when the plane leaving a trail is at lower cloud level. (1000 feet to 10,000 feet) I’m a truck driver so i have a unique situation of seeing this phenomenon all over the USA. On my observations I have seen jets flying at lower cloud level and leaving a trail where it isn’t even closely cold enough to leave a vapor trail. I’ve seen in the summer for example jets leaving parallel lines then crossing them later at 90 degrees from the original lines. If you go to the mountains at 10,000 ft in the summer temperatures can be 80 degrees somedays. Basically if you can easily see the jet then it must be at lower altitudes. If you see a contrail and can barely see the jet it is at cruising altitude ( above 30,000 feet)

  81. YN, I’d suspect that’s a case of you underestimating the height. Probably what you are seeing is contrails that are 50 miles or more away so they appear lower in the sky.

    Are there any photos or videos that demonstrate this?

  82. Also, remember jets can be vastly different sizes. A Lear jet and an A380 can fly at the same altitude, but the A380 might look way lower than the Lear if you can’t identify the plane precisely.

  83. captfitch says:

    True, very true. A Lear is roughly one eighth the size of an A380. Unless you are a well equiped plane spoter you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Unless, of course, you count the trails. Four compared to two that is.

  84. MikeC says:

    Ruffneck – 1 explaination is that ice sometimes forms on the underside of a/c wings when they are on the ground.

    This happens if they have a lot of fuel left after a long flight – the fuel is “cold soaked” – ie it is still below 0 deg C because there is a lot of it, and it hasn’t warmed up yet. If he a/c is in a humid environment on the ground, the moisture in the air freezes onto the underside of the wing because the fuel is, obviously, all in the bottom of the tanks there.

    When the a/c gets refuelled the fuel temperature warms up a lot faster than just sitting around because the new fuel is at ambient temperature.

    If things occur at just the right time intervals that a/c can take off with a substantial amount of ice under its wings that is read y to fall off – and it can do so shortly after takeoff.

    I’ve been part of an investigation where this was determined as the most likely cause of ice striking a house a few miles from the airport & under the takeoff flight path (way back when I worked for an airline).

    Other possible sources are ice forming inside an a/c due to a water leak, or failure to drain away, then falling off when the undercarriage extends, or just due to warming up. Other reasons given on the net for very large lumps if ice range from UFO’s, to lumps thrown into orbit from meteor collisions with icy moon in the solar system falling to earth..

    But no-one seems to know for sure.

    But I don’t’ see how they would be connected to contrails at all – and to be fair to Uncinus he’s not a guru for every weather related strange thing that happens – just clouds 🙂

  85. dz says:

    Sorry folks, I got some bad news.

    I was tracking Santa on radar and apparently he didn’t file a flight plan with the FAA and the Department of Homeland Security panicked and summoned four F-16 fighter jets….looks like Santa was shot down just north of Minot, ND. Sorry folks. ;-( Merry Christmas all!

  86. TheFactsMatter says:

    Was he leaving a “chemtrail” at the time?!

    Well, I guess it depends on what the reindeer had for dinner…

  87. Zeke Daniels says:

    I wondered what that was! I think I done counted eight or nine of them chemtrails to be exact. Not only that. I found this “stuff” all over my lawn.

  88. Actually….

    It just needs the right weather conditions 🙂

  89. dz says:

    Uncinus,

    You really do have a scientific explanation for everything 😉

    (Was it below -40C?)

  90. I think the photo was from Lapland, so quite possibly, yes. The record low there is -60.7F

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Finland#Climate

    Of course Santa’s Sleigh would only leave a faint contrail, as it’s moving fast. Unless he uses jet powered reindeer, which would alter the equation.

  91. Vic says:

    The Gulf Dec-24th-2010, Don’t know who the guy is, but he sounds really relaxed. Criss Cross Chemtrails going on here. Maybe spraying the toxic chemical Corexit. The Gubment says the seafood is fine in the gulf. Yea right. They also don’t spray chemicals all over us. LOL

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sugo4kTeBO4&feature=sub

    http://www.floridaoilspilllaw.com/

    Merry Christmas!!

  92. TheFactsMatter says:

    When are these “chemtrail” hoax accepters going to actually DO something about the trails other than whining about them on the Internet?! So many people are so convinced that something is going on..and yet do NOTHING about it! Damn cowards! If I thought, for a SECOND, that someone was spraying me and my family with “chemicals” (other than the millions of normal sources of chemicals I encounter every day) the LAST thing I’d be doing about it would be circle-jerking other people who are upset about it on the Internet.

    Useless….

  93. Chemtrails have rotated the moon?

  94. Zeke Daniels says:

    Hey there, Mr. Vic. This is Zeke here. Don’t mind all that skeptic nonsense. I believe you mostly. But I don’t think it’s that Cor whatchamacallit oil dispersant stuff that’s being sprayed. I think its statins, and that’s why some of us here git that metal taste in our mouth. You ever noticed that? If you hadn’t, just next time you see them doing it, see if you can taste it. I bet you can if you concentrate hard enuf.

  95. dz says:

    I really enjoyed that you tube link Vic, thanks.

  96. dz says:

    It kind of reminds me of Cheech and Chong movies from the 80’s. Back then they were getting high off of cockroaches and ajax and some of that “good Labrador ***t”. Now it’s chemtrails. (Maybe that explain the white powdery appearance).

  97. dz says:

    I think it’s kind of interesting that when these “chemtrails” appear, there are usually cirrostratus clouds around and then within a day or two a storm system moves through. (Not always true, but usually, especially in the winter).

    The video was reportedly taken from Gulfport Mississippi around sundown on Friday the 24th. Cirrostratus clouds were everywhere. By noon on the 25th, a developing low pressure system, which had produced rain over the Gulfport area that morning, passed just to the south of Gulfport. This is the same storm system that will explosively intensify after it crosses northern Florida, and then moves northeast just off of the Atlantic coast on Sunday the 26th, possibly producing blizzard conditions over southern New England late Sunday into Monday.

    Question 1: Does correlation in this case imply causation?

    Question 2: Are the “chemtrails” over Gulfport on the 24th the cause of the storm that will pummel the northeastern U.S. Sunday and Monday?

    Question 3: If the answer to both of the first two questions is yes, then am I part of the “conspiracy” since I told you the events ahead of time?

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