Q) How long do contrails last?
A) According to all the books on clouds in the last 70 years, contrails last anywhere from less than a second, up to several hours. If depends on the atmospheric conditions at the altitude the plane is flying. It’s unrelated to the weather on the ground.

This is an oft-asked question. The answer is reasonably straightforward, but misunderstanding is common. To understand why a contrail can last as little as a fraction of a second, or as long as several hours, you need to understand what a contrail is, and how it forms.

Here’s another question, which has the same answer:

snowflakecvr2.jpgQ) How long does a snowflake last?

Why is this basically the same question? Because contrails are generally made of ice crystals. Jet exhaust contains a lot of water vapor (the chemical reaction actually produces more water than there was originally jet fuel), and when this gets shot out of the back of the engine at 2000MPH, it hits the frigid air (typically colder than -40 degrees), and the water vapor condenses and freezes, very quickly, into tiny ice crystals, just like snowflakes.

So why do these ice crystals sometimes stay around for a long time, and sometimes vanish in seconds? The temperature is well below freezing, so they can’t melt, can they? This is puzzling, because it involves something that most people know nothing about: “sublimation“.

Sublimation is when a substance (in this case, water), goes directly from being solid to being vapor (a gas), without actually melting into a liquid. It’s like evaporation, except instead of a liquid evaporating, it’s a solid (ice). If the air is dry (i.e. there is little water vapor in it), then the ice crystals will quickly sublimate into vapor, and the trail will vanish quickly.

However, if the air already has a lot of water vapor in it, then the ice will sublimate slower, and the trail will last longer.

If the air has so much water vapor in it already that it can’t hold any more (i.e. it’s “supersaturated”), then the ice crystals can’t sublimate, and so the contrail will stay around for a long time. The ice crystals might even attract water from the air, if there is enough, and the contrail will get thicker. Winds might make the contrail spread out to even cover the whole sky.

The above is a simplification, as other factors like temperature, pressure, and sunlight have an effect. But it explains the basic reasons why some trails last only a few seconds, and some can last for hours, and spread out to cover the sky.

Finally, there is one more way of asking the question:

Q) How long do clouds last?

This is the same question because contrails are clouds. Contrails are physically very similar to cirrus clouds (except they are long and thin), and so they act almost exactly the same. You see cirrus clouds that last for hours, so why not contrails?

References – note the dates

“A Color Guide to clouds” from Richard Scorer & Harry Wexler, 1963

1972: Richard Scorer – “Cloud of the worlds”

 

 

  558 Responses to “How Long do Contrails Last?”

  • Well, Shucks,
    I’m glad SOMEBODY finally had SOME rational explanation. I would like to say that I feel much better now, but I’m still sick. Lots of people are sick, often, and respiratory problems are becoming increasingly deadly. I seem to get dumber by the day. Are you doing this for the money? Is the money going to help your grandchildren breathe? Did they promise you safety? Did you believe them?

  • Charles, why do you blame contrails for your illness? There are many causes of decreased air quality. Car exhaust fumes create far more air pollution that jet planes.

  • Hello,

    Last night I watched the formation of two “lingering contrails” which ran parallel across the sky. One was made and then about 7 minutes later the next was made. As the second one was beginning to spread out (5 minutes after its formation), a third plane flew a similar route across the sky, releasing a standard contrail that dissipated after a couple hundred feet, leaving no clouds. Then, again less than 10 minutes later, another “lingering” trail was left crossing the first two.

    My question here is how come contrails formed under the same conditions behaved completely differently? There was no issue of altitude as all of the planes were at cruising height (I know this because the they did not come from the direction of the nearest airport, and there is no other airport to the west for hundreds of miles.

    -Thanks

  • Johan, there is no one “cruising altitude” that ALL planes fly at. The plane’s altitude is set by air traffic control (although the pilot can request a new altitude). Individual jets have a “cruise altitude” which gives an optimum fuel efficiency, and obviously they would prefer to fly at this altitude on long flights. But this varies by jet – for example the 777 has a cruise altitude of 35,000 feet, and the 747 has a cruise altitude of 37,000 feet. That 2000 feet can make all the difference in contrail formation.

    Jets don’t always fly at their cruise altitude either – on a short flight it does not always make sense to climb all the way up there, and back down again, as the fuel savings are canceled by the fuel needed to climb. They also often change altitude to avoid turbulence – as much as 8,000 feet if needed.

    Have a look here, click on the blue map on the top right:

    http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KPLN

    Have a look at the green planes, those are the one that are just overflying the region

    The Text under each plane is something like:
    ACA540 E190 (Flight number, Plane type)
    370 487 (Altitude in 100s of feet, speed in knots)
    KSEA CYYZ (originating and destination airports).

    So for high altitudes, right now I see 40000, 35000 and 37000.

    Conclusion – planes at “cruising altitude” fly at a lot of different altitudes, and so that’s probably what you saw.

  • So then why are these contrail-produced layers of atmosphere suddenly creating prism effects such as rainbows that halo the sun? I’ve only lived on this planet for 27 years but I’ve never seen a phenomenon like that until about 2 months ago. Why now? In fact, 10+ years ago, I don’t ever recall contrails behaving like they do these days; the way they hang in the sky, break apart as if they’re falling downward, and then create effects like rainbows around the sun… That and the fact that everyone seems so tired and run-down these days… I’m sorry, but what makes you think that there isn’t a classified aerosol operation taking place?

  • You only NOTICED it 2 months ago.

    I don’t think that there isn’t a classified aerosol operation taking place because there is no evidence to suggest that there is. What makes you think there isn’t a classified earthquake generation program going on?

    You actually need evidence to believe things. I know you THINK you have evidence, but hopefully I’ve been able to show to most people that what you think is evidence is actually the same kind of contrail that has existed since 1921.

    The hanging down in contrails is called “pendules”, like in this pre 1991 book:

    http://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/1991-day-p47-2.jpg

  • Paul-

    …You only noticed these events about 2 months ago….others say “chemtrails” started 10 years ago…why the discrepancy? Is it possible that you were not looking??

    Halos, sundogs and other optical events are not new….they are natural events that have been observed and studied for a long time- Look at this photo from 1983:

    http://www.1000plus.com/Imagic/8301sund.htm

    See here for more information on atmospheric optical events:

    http://www.atoptics.co.uk/

    Just because you do not remember contrails persisting and “behaving like they do these days” – doesn’t mean they didn’t- not exactly the best Scientific approach to deduction.

    Uncinus has provided ample examples of contrails behaving exactly as you described in photos from the 50s, 60, 70s…

    Do your own research. Read all the scientific papers written in the last 50yrs about contrail formation and behavior…if you truly do so you will see that persisting, spreading and creating optical events are all well documented and researched behavior of contrails. Its is nothing new…You just happened to notice now.

    Look up contrail cirrus.

    or

    Supersaturated persistent contrails.

  • Another throw off for this I guess to make people feel safe and relaxed over this cover up. I guess they convinced and paid you to write this on the net as well to fool the dumb deaf and blind right? It will work for alot of people, but I am not buying it. Those things I see are not contrails up there, I have seen many of those but this explanation is pretty weak IMO. Notice you don’t mention Chemtrails on here, but we know what you were getting at by writing this. Peace and keep keeping folks dumb deaf and blind.

  • Ha, I WISH people would pay me! No, I’m just doing this because it’s interesting.

    The point is that there are reasons for contrails to last a long time (as long as clouds last), so saying that contrails are “chemtrails” because they last a long time does not make any sense.

    Sean, how do you know “Those things I see are not contrails up there”? Is there any science to back it up, or did you just not notice them until recently?

  • Sean, I have two words for you, one of them is hyphenated…

    ice-saturated air

    Look it up.

  • I love the accusation that those who are intelligent enough and trained to understand these phenomena MUST be on some sort of payroll and are here to somehow convince those who are “in the know” Or “awake” as they call themselves, to forget what they have “learned” on youtube and other blogs. This is very simple science here people! There is no plan to cover anything up because if you understood the science, you would know there is NOTHING to cover up! It’s hilarious! I wish the makers of this website would create some videos to explain this stuff in a graphical form. These people “learn” that chemtrails are “real” through youtube, maybe someone can help them learn the actual facts through youtube. I don’t have the editing talents but I do have some ideas for a video. If anyone is interested, please contact me, DiSiNf0aGeNt (what THEY call me) on youtube.

  • Contrail today stretched from one extreme of the horizon to the opposite, longest contrail I have ever seen, in fact with the visible eye it couldn’t have been longer! What are the chances that hundreds of miles of air are at the correct conditions for PERSISTENT contrails to form? Other clouds were few and far between.

    Unsurprisingly a plane flying at right angles to this line had a NORMAL contrail (disappearing), while a further plane stop-started in the vicinity – MENTAL!

  • I’d suspect the odds are about the same as how often it occurs. Round here I’d see a trail like that maybe a couple of times a year, so the odds would be something like one day out of 100. Probably in other regions the odds would be higher.

    Horizon to horizon at 30000 feet is theoretically around 600 miles, but practically probably more like 200 miles maximum (100 miles visibility each way) – you’d just have to be in the middle of a band of moist air 200 miles wide. Does not really seem THAT implausible.

    The other planes you saw would have been at different altitudes, with the planes leaving the broken trail flying at about the boundary between the layers.

  • Just remember one thing please… Do not discount actual possibilities on basic assumptions of something being impossible or ridiculous. Likewise, do not assume that something is sinister just because it is possible. If history and common-sense are any teacher, complete vigilance is absolutely necessary. If you momentarily glance at that which has occured to other lifeforms on this planet due to human behavior you will find instances of extinction and tortureous-slavery. Genocide is also a daily reality for many humans on this planet as well. Now whether these happenings are universal neccessity or pure evil is not my awareness at the moment, but what is, is that anything is possible. Stay open-minded. A simple look around will show you how much is possible and how little you know.

  • Thanks for this information. I am not being sarcastic, I really need to see all of the information out there on this issue. There has been a congressional bill introduced that defines chemtrails as “exotic” weapons. This is pretty compelling.

    http://www.carnicom.com/hr2977.htm

  • Actually it’s more like the word “chemtrails” gets a passing mention in a bill to ban space based weapons – a bill that listed a whole bunch of off the wall weapons. The bill was written by UFO enthusiasts. Full story here:

    http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and-hr-2977/

    If you want to see all the information, I’d start here:

    http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/

    Then read all the articles listed in the top left column, and then all the links.

  • I’ve noticed that the contrails have a space between the engine and the formation of the contrail. Would this be there if they were spraying chemicals or would you see the trail the second it left the engine like you do in a crop duster?

  • That gap is there because the water vapor that causes exhaust contrails takes some time to freeze.

    When spraying a substance, the trail starts out at the point of emission. Usually narrower, but the difference is quite noticeable

    see these examples of other things that are not contrails:

    http://contrailscience.com/things-that-are-not-contrails-or-chemtrails/

  • The gap is due to the exhaust gases mixing with the environmental air.

    The exhaust is hot and contains some moisture; more moisture than it had when it entered the engine. The addition of water vapor from burning fuel tends to raise the RH of the air through the engine. The burning (high temperature) tends to lower the RH. When the exhaust gas mixture exits the engine it is not saturated and no vapor is condensed.

    However as the exhaust mixes with the environment air and cools, there may be a point when the mixture becomes saturated. At that point the water vapor condenses and becomes visible. Because the temperature is usually below the homogeneous nucleation temperature of water (about -43degC) at contrailing temperature, the condensed water freezes almost immediately.

    The temperature below which the condensation occurs depends on the pressure (=altitude) and the RH of the environment.

    Often, after sufficient mixing, the contrail dissipates as the ice particles sublime away in the air
    if it is dry enough. This can take several seconds. However, if the RH is so high that the air is ice-saturated, the ice crystals do not dissipate… maybe tens of minutes or a few hours. All this time the contrail remains visible.

  • Uncinus:

    That gap is there because the water vapor that causes exhaust contrails takes some time to freeze.

    And THAT GAP is the absolute disproof of the presence of aluminum or barium or “blood products” or “Morgellons”.

    At this point “chemtrailers” switch to “the military” as if they were capable of covering the Earth, when their fuel use is one sixth that of civil aviation, and they are already fighting a war on TWO fronts.

    “Who else?” one might well ask. Well, don’t worry, there is at least one guy I know who thinks ALIENS are doing this.

    It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, mad world….

    That’s a great picture, Uncinus.

  • Shortly after I first started noticing and actively looking at contrails, I came across a piece of information that contrails formed
    about a wingspan behind the plane or what from the ground would look like about the length of the plane before the trail formed.
    Ever since that time I’ve looked at that but it has seemed to vary. Sometimes I see trails that appear -at a great distance- to form
    immediately.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psdg3OAw_a8
    This trail (at 1:35) appears to be attached to the plane. If it is from turbulence, in combination with supersaturated
    conditions, shouldn’t the vapor be generated more spread out along the wings instead of coming just from the engines and wouldn’t there also be a turbulence trail from the tail of the plane?

    Conversely (and I don’t believe this actually) according to Jazzpolka, the absence of a GAP must be the absolute proof that
    this is a chemtrail laden with Morgellons, Viruses, flesh eating bacteria, aluminum and barium. lol…

    Comments, ideas?
    -Bryan

  • Looks like it’s coming from the engines there. It’s rather blurry, though, so probably not right at the engines.

    The distance will vary based on several factors: the temperature, the humidity, the jet’s speed, the engine power setting.

    Just have a look on airliners.net, you’ll see a variety, like this:
    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Airbus-Industrie/Airbus-A380-841/1197030/M/

    That looks pretty much the same to me. Pity the chemtrail crowd don’t get nice clear photos like these.

    Out of interest, here’s what that same photo looks like with simulated blur:

  • Thanks. In some cases the distance is very small.
    Some great images at that website.
    -Bryan

  • I find it unpleasant to stare at the blurred image too long lol.
    Great pictures tho

  • That may be Uncinus. I wish there was a way to control that kind of patent filing,
    or at least seperate it from ones that are straight shooting.
    I don’t see the filing date for the patent on the page either which is annoying.

    Looking forward to the first contrail pics from this fuel,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7817849.stm

    I don’t think this was caused by an airbus lol. Maybe especially robust ball lightning.
    Not really related to contrails, but interesting that they haven’t found one of the blades.
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/ufos/article2108149.ece

    This is one of the websites I check every day, they often have atmospheric images
    of sun dogs, pillars, green flashes, noctilucent, nacreous clouds etc. Occasionally they’ll show a contrail in front
    of the full moon, or ice crystals from what maybe a contrail cloud.
    http://www.spaceweather.com/

  • The CRRES spacecraft arrived at the PHSF on March 23. Electrical
    checks and functional testing of the spacecraft were completed on
    April 20. During the first week of May, the canisters, designed for
    releasing the chemicals in orbit, were loaded with their respective
    elements and were placed aboard the spacecraft. There are eight
    small and 16 large canisters which collectively contain the elements
    *barium*, *lithium*, *strontium* and *calcium*.

    http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/1990/90-094.txt

    During the months of September and October 2005, the states of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas suffered from terrible circumstances resulting in the aftermath of Hurricane’s Katrina and Rita. Hundreds of thousands of people were displaced from their homes while entire communities were wiped away by the storms or resulting flood conditions that left prime breeding grounds for mosquitoes and filth flies. The potential for these bugs to spread disease among the population would have been very high had it not been for the aerial spray mission personnel from the 757th Airlift Squadron who deployed to Duke Field, Fla. to set up a base of operations in order to conduct aerial spray missions over Louisiana and Texas. When it was all said and done, the 757th aircrews had sprayed 2,880,662 acres, or 4,501 square miles an area equivalent in size to the state of Connecticut. Fourteen thousand gallons of the pesticide Dibrom® were used, costing FEMA $1.6 million. The missions comprised 191.4 hours of total flying time with 46.5 hours of actual Spray-On time flying at 150 feet above ground level. This was the largest aerial spray mission ever conducted.
    http://www.youngstown.afrc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3413

    About the pesticide. “NALED” aka Diborm

    http://www.wtv-zone.com/infchoice/naled.html
    http://www.chem-tox.com/brevard/main.htm

    Chromosome/Genetic Damage Evident in
    Immune System Cells from Permethrin

    Coud Seeders

    http://www.owrb.ok.gov/hazard/weather/wx_mod.php

    The plane has an alt of 31,500 w/payload.

  • All interesting stuff. But does any of it make long white persistent trails behind aircraft? One is in space, another at 150 feet , and the third inside rainclouds. None are secret. So what is your point?

  • I am so happy that someone has taken the time to post and re post in response to conspiracy theories and provided excellent information with evidence to back it up. I have only recently learned about the chemtrail conspiracies, but have always been interested in cloud formations and weather patterns, making it laughable when I heard why some feel that, ultimately cirrus clouds, are a government threat.

    It has been increasingly discouraging to watch videos and read blogs from people who really believe that chemtrails are causing respiratory illnesses and so forth when there are numerous obvious reasons that can be attributed to that on the ground. An increasing number of auto emissions, waste management facilities and power plants, and smoking could all easily explain why there is an influx of sickness all across the country (the world even). I suppose that it’s easier to blog about “chemtrails” and government conspiracies than to actually get up and take action against things that we know are harmful.

    I’m not saying that there isn’t a possibility that any government could do this, but it would take so much man power and money, not to mention organization to plan and execute such a task. And with such limited “proof”, it makes it extremely hard to believe that this is an actual occurrence.

    I’ve heard people explain that the reason these trails are different from contrails is because they do a criss-cross patten in the sky, while it is estimated that there are between 8000-13000 planes (commercial and otherwise) in the sky at any given time around the world. The fact is, at some point or another 2 of those planes are going to cross paths and leave the X in the sky. Another reason many believe these are chemical trails are because they leave halos or rainbows. As stated above, these contrails are made from water vapor that form into ice crystals. It’s a natural phenomenon that light mixed w/ ice or water will create a rainbow. I could go on and on, as I’m sure many of you could, but I would only be accused of being on someones payroll as opposed to being someone who actually reads and is willing to accept that sometimes there just isn’t a conspiracy.

    When I started learning of chemtrails, and especially when I heard the rainbow suggestions all I could think about was this video;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

    I wonder if the chemtrail theorists believe that as well?

  • I’ve observed these planes from the rim of the mountain where I live at 5000 ft. We have planes fly over low all the time with huge circular apparatis’s attached to the top ….they are not commerical airliners. 10 years ago a co-worker and I noticed we got headaches on the same days…and later realized it was when these clouds were in the air. My headaches and pains occur everytime these planes fly over.
    In 2006….a plane dumped something in our area….(Cedar Glen)….it was a large yellow cloud that exploded leaving behind a sticky yellow reside on my car and property….although it looked like cedar pollen….it was in Dec. so no chance of it being that. Following that…there was a high rate of illness reported by doctors in the area. Paul Moyer on NBC 4 did a report on it as well….with no explanation other than “oh well….we’ll keep you posted”.
    I watched four days ago as the planes criss crossed in the sky…..coloring the sky white. It rained the next day and I got the headaches that felt like an ice pick stabbing me in the inner ear. I have been around for a long time….and do not remember anything like these planes trails or headaches of this severity when I was growing up until the late 90′s. I would never have paid attention until I notice the illnesses in conjunction with the planes.

  • Hi Watcher, since cedar pollination starts in December, I’m curious as to why you don’t think it could have been cedar pollen? Also, are you not aware of “Cedar Fever”, which could explain illnesses associated with this yellow cloud.

    The planes you describe sound like AWACS

    http://images.google.com/images?q=awacs

  • hey Watcher-

    I am curious…did you see the plane leave the yellow cloud? Did you see it “explode” ? I saw the report in Ch 4- no one claimed to have seen a plane…??

    regardless- that has nothing to do with “chemtrails”…

    Are you aware that conditions for persistent contrails are often found just prior to a weather trough moving in?

    Just curious.

  • Thank you ‘Uncinus’ for the info. Much appreciated. I understand where most of these folks are comming from however, when it comes to conspiracy theories and a general mistrust of the power elite and our own government. You would have to be in serious denial or blind by choice to not see that this country is in serious trouble, that we are lied to by mainstreem media and our own elected officials on a variety of issues. The blood will flow in the streets before its over.

  • Hi, I’m sure you have heard of many testimonials of airplanes making U-turns and coming back around leaving several persistent trails, they seem to have control of when the trail is formed as you don’t see a trail when they are turning back around, do you have any idea why they would go back and forward? I’ve also seen airplanes flying up at a very steep angle going from a fairly low altitude to a very high altitude and leaving a persistent contrail all the way through, this also seems very odd to me.

  • Uncinus… interesting stuff, you explain a lot of things, but really you are just trying to divert people from the facts… even if most of the listed accounts aren’t exactly a direct result of chemtrails, actually if you look here it reads… “CDC: Rocket fuel chemical found in baby formula”… http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iv7iKxtfzjqINoGSGDUuSwLow4TQD97B7DLG0

    so cars being more polluting than planes I dunno buddy…

    also, weather modification is happening in which they add silver iodide into the atmosphere to “seed clouds”… The United States, China, and other countries are participating in this… SHADY! silver iodide is also a fast ion conductor… seeding the atmosphere with silver iodide would give those who participate alternative uses such as communication devices or detailed scanners similar to and MRI but on a world scale…

    also, for HAARP… ionosphere manipulation… no good… they say it’s for “cloud seeding” but it’s really to ionize the atmosphere… here’s a quote from http://www.haarp.alaska.edu… “The HAARP facility will be used for basic and applied plasma physics and Radio Science research related to the study of the Earth’s ionosphere.”

    Not sure what plasma physics are? check this to learn more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)

    This is similar to the “plasma ball” that you would touch and the electricity would conduct your hand… Nikola Tesla’s work… An amazing man… His works are absent in modern teachings… If you want to know about him you have to look into his works yourself… don’t expect to learn about them in any school… The government is trying to get control over free-energy, which they knew was possible during Tesla’s time… The governments of the world are finding other ways to use his findings for the benefit of a few rather than everyone… The official HAARP or weather modification websites are very vague when talking about what they are doing but you have to think for yourselves and come to educated conclusions… chemtrails are real… as is ionospheric manipulation… probably being used hand in hand considering silver iodide’s ionic conductivity… this would increase the HAARP program’s abilities, and accuracy of readings, transmissions, or manipulations… When asked of the dangers of HAARP, of course they are going to be down played by the company conducting the experiments… besides the dangers… What is being learned isn’t being publicly shared… The program is unclassified but many of the experiments it conducts are classified… check this article… http://www.padrak.com/ine/HAARP97.html

    Uncinus, I agree we can’t believe everything we see, read, or hear… Especially when it comes to sensitive subjects like conspiracies or issues we don’t have all the facts on… but honestly you can’t sit there and honestly say nothing shady is going on… considering what I have listed and the issues that arise there aren’t enough “facts” to support either argument and we should be able to agree that we are both right in a manner of speaking but you aren’t acknowledging the quality counter arguments… you are simply responding to the arguments which are easily discredited… If you can sit there and whole-heartedly say and believe that there is nothing “suspect” going on in relation to “chemtrails”, “HAARP”, and other atmospheric manipulations, than I’m done arguing since there is no point arguing with an ignorant, unresponsive, wall… Have a good day all and I hope you learned something from this but more importantly I would hope this pushes you to do more of your own research…

  • “would benefit” not “would give” in the sentence, “…atmosphere with silver iodide would give those who participate alternative uses such…”

    sorry for the grammatical error

  • Marcus, I’d suspect you are not seeing a plane going from low to high, but rather one flying over the top of your area from some distance away in level flight. It’s a bit of an optical illusion.

  • Michael. Planes don’t use rocket fuel, so I don’t know what that link is supposed to demonstrate. Planes basically use the same kind of fuel as cars.

    also, weather modification is happening in which they add silver iodide into the atmosphere to “seed clouds”… The United States, China, and other countries are participating in this… SHADY!

    What’s shady about that? Cloud seeding has been done for decades with no secrecy.

    Tesla’s works are not absent in modern teaching, in fact he’s very well known, see Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

    Let me ask you a question – do you think contrails are different now (and hence are “chemtrails”), than they were, say 30 years ago. If so, how are they different?

  • Marcus-

    Uncinus is right- cloud seeding is very much out in the open and has been done for a long time…although results are still inconclusive…

    for a fee you can have your very own weather mod attempt:

    http://www.weathermod.com/

    …they will even sample a contrail of your choosing for the right price :)

    http://www.weathermod.com/atmospheric_research.php

  • I’m very familliar with contrail formation and contrails are commonly misidentified as chemtrails. I live in a very dry part of the country and observe the chemtrail spraying program daily. The chemtrails that I observe last anywhere from one to five hours long. They quite often make an x after they are through. If the air is not supersaturated with moisture there would be no explanation for a contrail to linger for several hours.

    If anyone would like to see todays photos please go to curezone.org into the ask barefoot forum and take a look.

    I’m not sure why these chemtrails are being sprayed, but I can tell you that they are being intentionally made

  • Hi Vance, I’m curious as to how you can tell what the humidity is at the altitude that these trails are forming? And what is the significance of the x? Can’t planes cross paths occasionally?

  • -SR1419

    So we agree that they are not regular contrails, at least they are modifying the weather, now we need to find out if that’s the only thing they are doing, are they spraying aluminum (found in your antiperspirant BTW)? what about turning the sky into a super conductor for ELF do you know anything about that? and please..

    -Uncinus

    Stop it with the “there’s just not enuff evidence” mentality, there was not enough evidence to convict OJ but does that mean he’s not guilty???

    That’s why we are here in this forum to try to find out what the hell is going on, what you say is certainly not FINAL.
    by the way if you didn’t know about the “Weather Warfare Treaty” (passed in 1977)
    here’s some interesting stuff in it.

    This is taken from Article 1 of the treaty

    Article I1. Each State Party to this Convention undertakes not to engage in military or any other hostile use of environmental modification techniques having widespread, long-lasting or severe effects as the means of destruction, damage or injury to any other State Party.

    This is taken from Article 2 of the treaty

    It is the understanding of the Committee that the following examples are illustrative of phenomena that could be caused by the use of environmental modification techniques as defined in Article II of the Convention: earthquakes, tsunamis; an upset in the ecological balance of a region; changes in weather patterns (clouds, precipitation, cyclones of various types and tornadic storms); changes in climate patterns; changes in ocean currents; changes in the state of the ozone layer; and changes in the state of the ionosphere.

  • Marcus, that’s a treaty saying “don’t do these things”. Now why exactly does that indicate that this is currently happening worldwide? There are also treaties saying “don’t use chemical weapons”, and “don’t drop nuclear bombs”, does that mean there are nuclear bombs going off everywhere?

    And regular contrails DO affect the weather. They always have. This is nothing new.

  • Marcus-

    You said “So we agree that they are not regular contrails”

    Actually, its seems like my comment was intended for Michael- sorry for the confusion

    However, I never said that.

    I said that cloud seeding is a well known process that has long been used to induce precipitation and even mitigate hail…it is not “shady” as Michael put it…

    Moreover, it is not done in the troposphere and does not involve long lasting contrails….and thus, has no relation to “chemtrails”.

  • Yesterdays relative humidity was 15%. At 35,000 feet it was 29%. I don’t get much air traffic through my neck of the woods when the winds are over 25mph. The only aircraft that I do see are airplanes which travel from east to west. These planes always leave long persistant contrails despite the atmosphric conditions, and appear to travel at higher speeds than the aircraft that leave normal contrails traveling simillar routes. I’m not inferring that poisons are being dumped on people, and I’ve never claimed that.

    I’m merely acknowledging that certain aircraft on particular routes that only fly in certain weather conditions leave patterns of persistant contrails, regardless of the particular relative humidity. These contrails take several hours to spread and create a cloudy haze that lasts the rest of the day.

    I think that it’s very obvious that there is some sort of military program that is regularily releasing something into the atmosphere. Anyone who has a contrary opinion has not done their homework.

    Cheers

  • As far as knowing the relative humidity of specific altitudes I use my fathers services. He is a ph.d at a large university where he is a research scientist and former professor. He takes temperature and specific data places it in a formula and gives me the specific humidity.

    Your response to my post seemed to be one of sarcasm, when I made mention of the upper level humidities not being conducive to persistant contrail formation.

  • Vance, perhaps you could post in detail what measurements and observation were made, and at what location, date and time. Your hypothesis would hold a lot more weight with real figures to back it up. In particular, how did you calculate the humidity at the time and location of the contrail?

    Keep in mind that humidity calculation are only a model of the humidity, and not an actual measurement. Scientists have known for a long time that this is not accurate, and that contrails are often observed when the modeled humidity says they will not be. See myth #2 here:

    http://contrailscience.com/chemtrail-myths/

  • They may not be exact measurements but there pretty close. From reading your post I can tell that you will try and find another reason that my fathers measurements are inaccurate.

    Let’s forget about contrail formation in respect to humidity all together for a moment and focus on another aspect of persistent contrails compared to chemtrails.

    Persistant contrails do form small cirrus clouds that can stay for long periods of time, but I’ve never seen them, not one time, spread out over the entire sky with a dull grey haze. This is exactly what happens every single time they come out and spray. This lasts from the 10:30 am spraying throughout the entire day.

    I won’t waste anymore of your or my time. Have fun convincing people that chemtrails don’t exist. You seem like a pretty smart guy, so i’ll have to assume that you have an alterior motive.

    Cheers

  • Persistant contrails do form small cirrus clouds that can stay for long periods of time, but I’ve never seen them, not one time, spread out over the entire sky with a dull grey haze. This is exactly what happens every single time they come out and spray.

    See, there’s your problem. You say “when they come out and spray”, as if these are not contrails.

    Consider for a moment: are these actually contrails? How do you know they are not contrails?

    I think you might be in a little mental trap here. Let me posit an analogy: Let’s say apples are green. Now, I see these red things, which are obviously not apples, because apples are green. Then someone tells me that those red things are just red apples. I know this is false because apples are green.

    Of course, the truth is that some apples are green, and some apples are red.

    Some contrails are short. Some contrails spread out to cover the sky. This has always been so.

  • Vance…

    You said that you have never seen contrails “spread out over the entire sky with a dull grey haze.”

    …but that is exactly what contrail-cirrus do…look up the term.

    That is exactly what this paper from 1970 describes :

    http://tinyurl.com/ctahvp

    In which the author explicitly states:

    “The writer himself has seen instances in which a single contrail seemed to grow until it became an overcast covering the whole sky”

    More examples here:

    http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/

    Scroll down to the photos from the paper from 1969 which states:

    ” The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
    [....]
    Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.”

    The spreading of contrail cirrus into a sheet of haze is a common aspect of their behavior.

  • I’ve lived on an air force base most of my life, and I’ve never seen anything like this. My neighbor flew Sr-71 spy planes. This new type of contrail that i’m talking about is indeed a chem trail.

    Your web site is very peculiar. You say that it’s a hobby to discuss contrails. I think very differently, unless you can prove otherwise

  • Vance, why would an air force base have more contrails than somewhere else? Have a look at the image of America here, which shows all the flights in a typical day:


    http://contrailscience.com/britain-from-above-air-traffic/

    Notice the two dark triangular areas in the west. What do you think is under those areas? It’s a military area. There are LESS flights over it.

  • Take it easy man, it was fun.

  • You guys are good, but i’m not buying that waht i’m seeing is normal. I’ve not been seeing this type of contrail my entire life. You know it and I know it.

    Why is everyone noticing these persistant contrails in the last few years, if it’s been going on all of our lives? I don’t buy into your theory that someone started a rumor which turned into this theory.

    I personally have noticed these contrails for over a year and thought it was a new type of fuel additive causing this. I had only heard chemtrails being mentioned after I became aware of this problem.

    I guess i’m just another idiot that can’t trust his eyes, right

  • Vance…

    no offense…but just because you do not remember seeing persisting, spreading contrails doesn’t mean they did not exist…

    I presented evidence that the exact phenomena you described were being observed back in 1970…what do you make of that? …disinfo?

    When did you first notice it?

  • Where I live it’s not normal to see commercial passenger jets flying over. The only aircraft that I do see regularly, create these persisting spreading contrails. I live in a very dry region of the southwest, so explain to me why the only airplanes I see are the two that show up between 10am and 11am, and they have persisting spreading contrails . Does it not seem strange that these jets never have standard contrails?

    I’m very aware that persisting spreading contrails do exist, so you don’t need to share anymore links. I’d like for you to show me an example of how two individual chemtrails/persisting spreading contrails can spread out across the sky to cover an entire city.

    Your telling me that this has been going on my entire life, and I’ve just noticed a couple of years ago. I too understand that our memories are not perfect.

  • Let’s say apples are green. Now, I see these red things, which are obviously not apples, because apples are green. Then someone tells me that those red things are just red apples. I know this is false because apples are green.

    What, did you think I was ten years old? You have not convinced me that chemtrails don’t exist.

  • Maybe that’s a new route that planes only just started flying a few months ago. What direction are the trails?

    If you are really interested, then I’d suggest you start keeping a journal of planes that fly over, what type of contrail they leave and what the weather conditions are.

    Since you think that two flights in particular are suspicious, I’d try to identify them with FlightAware. If you live near Lubbock, TX, then use this link:

    http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KLBB

    Then click on the small map in the top right to get an animated map of all the overhead planes in real time. The green planes are the overflying planes. It looks like you actually get a LOT of planes overflying the area. Like right now there’s two american airlines directly overhead, and several other planes in the vicinity.

  • That was not the point. I was pointing out a problem with your logic.

    How exactly do you tell the difference between a “normal” persistent contrail, and a “chemtrail”?

  • I’m very aware that persisting spreading contrails do exist, so you don’t need to share anymore links. I’d like for you to show me an example of how two individual chemtrails/persisting spreading contrails can spread out across the sky to cover an entire city.

    Okay, here’s a study from 1970 that describes this:

    http://contrailscience.com/files/1970-AMS-i1520-0469-27-6-937.pdf

    The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
    [....]
    Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.


  • I don’t even care that there is a spraying program going on, to be honest. I’m convinced that i’m seeing something other than ordinary persistant spreading contrails coming from the aircraft that i’ve witnessed.

    In a prior post you mentioned that the odds of seeing a persistant contrail from horizon to horizon is 1 in a hundred. I regularly see this.

    The aircraft that I see continually exhibiting this kind of contrail is always on the same flight path, and travel at a much higher rate of speed than the aircraft that release an ordinary contrail. I’ve never seen any of the slower moving commercial aircraft that travel from south to north with a persistant spreading contrail.

    If this was due to the specific atmospheric conditions, I would observe all the aircraft flying at that particular time with the same persistant spreading contrails.

  • In a prior post you mentioned that the odds of seeing a persistant contrail from horizon to horizon is 1 in a hundred. I regularly see this.

    I don’t remember saying that exactly, but even so, it looks like there are a couple of hundred flights over the Lubbock area every day. So you’d see it around twice a day, if that were an accurate estimate.

    If this was due to the specific atmospheric conditions, I would observe all the aircraft flying at that particular time with the same persistant spreading contrails.

    Only if they were flying at the same altitude, with the same engine type, and the same thrust settings.

  • I guess you’re right, I’m feeling pretty stupid right now. This whole chemtrail conspiracy is pretty much nonsense. After reading all of your links and carfully considering your expert analysis, I can clearly see that I was mistaking persistant spreading contrails for chemtrails.

    If it weren’t for the great information offered on your website, I’d still be one of those idiots thinking chemtrails actually existed.

    Thanks for opening my eyes.

    Cheers

  • From The Emperor’s New Clothes” by Hans Christian Anderson

    “Your Majesty,” the prime minister said, “we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit.” The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent.

    “All right,” he said. “I will grant the people this privilege.” He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd.

    Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: “Look at the Emperor’s new clothes. They’re beautiful!”

    “What a marvellous train!”

    “And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!” They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

    A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

    “The Emperor is naked,” he said.

    “Fool!” his father reprimanded, running after him. “Don’t talk nonsense!” He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy’s remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:

    “The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It’s true!”

    At some point, the people will stop believing what they are told, and look for themselves. What’s in the sky now is not normal, and no matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be true.

  • What’s in the sky now is not normal, and no matter how many times you repeat it, it will never be true.

    Perhaps you could explain what is not normal about it?

    Contrails persist in the right weather conditions. They always have. There is a lot of evidence that they have.

    Is there any evidence that they have not?

  • Yes there is evidence that they didn’t persist. At least rarely. The evidence is me! I have been watching jets fly over for at least 40 years. Furthermore, i just returned from living one year in St Petersburg Russia and did not see ONE contrail last for more than the usual amount of time they did back in the early 70′s. NOT ONE CONTRAIL OR CHEMTRAIL IN RUSSIA, LET ALONE A GRID PATTERN, IN A YEAR!

    However I do see then in Australia and I do see them in the USA. What’s up with that?

  • I’d suspect that’s because there is very little fly-over traffic in the St Petersburg region. It’s in the North-West corner of Russia, and there are just no city-to-city direct routes that take you over it.

    Local traffic would not be high enough to form contrails.

    Have a look at it on a globe, or Google Earth, and see if you can find a city-to-city route that comes within 100 miles.

  • This website is a textbook example of the Asch Conformity Experiment. Be careful, if you dont conform you will be labeled and ridiculed.

  • kgb:

    Be careful, if you don’t conform you will be labeled and ridiculed.

    If YOU don’t bother to research and appreciate the contemporary scientific evidence and interpretation of these atmospheric phenomena, you’d better come up with some BETTER evidence and interpretation…
    If you DON’T, then YES, we WILL label you and ridicule you. As PSEUDOSCIENTISTS, LIARS and SLANDERERS.
    For with your lies you are slandering thousands of talented, hard-working and professional people.
    They have their rights, too.

  • Uncinus
    I’d suspect that’s because there is very little fly-over traffic in the St Petersburg region. It’s in the North-West corner of Russia, and there are just no city-to-city direct routes that take you over it.

    Local traffic would not be high enough to form contrails.

    Have a look at it on a globe, or Google Earth, and see if you can find a city-to-city route that comes within 100 miles.

    Well, then where were all those planes going that I saw over St Petersburg?

  • I have a question, I live in phoenix arizona and on new years eve I had to work. Well around 3am in the morning I was walking on the rooftop of the garage I patrol and I observed this spine shaped trail from a jet. It was so close that the width appeared to be 10ft wide. The moon was behind it so I saw it very well. It last at least an hour. It was a beautiful site to see. The trail was really low, I wish I had my camera.
    anyway, I became really sick a few days afterwards. I had muscle fatigue, migraines that lasted 24 hours at a time, a rash that was all over my body… I went to the doctor and they said it was the flu and they could not do anything for me… I had never been in that condition before in my entire life especially the migraines. I rarely get headaches.

    I am not saying people are being sprayed on purpose to get us sick but if they are doing atmosphere
    manipulation by spraying id at least like to know what times so I know not to be outside….

    anyway I enjoyed reading the comments. spread the word!

  • You might want to think about it a bit – why would only you get sick? How high was the jet? Was the trail that unusual? What does “10ft wide” mean, when you don’t know how far away the trail is? How long would it take a fine mist to fall 30,000 feet at 1 foot per second? (I’ll answer that one for you – 30,000 seconds is 8 hours). If you can see the trail in the sky, then why do you assume you are breathing it in?

    Maybe it was the flu?

  • Well, then where were all those planes going that I saw over St Petersburg?

    Local or military traffic? Did they leave contrails?

  • Unicus,

    Your patience and politeness are truly amazing. Kudos for remaining instructive and civil while having to re-visit the same illogical arguments over-and-over again from your guests.

    I’ve spent the better part of an evening reading the comments on the various topics here — as it’s fascinating to see how the conspiracy-theorist’s minds work. They seem to be especially fond of:

    - Biased sample
    - Post hoc ergo propter hoc
    - Moving the goalposts
    - Ad hominem
    - Ad Hominem Tu Quoque
    - Appeal to Ridicule
    - Straw man

    In a way, it makes me sad — because some of these folks are clearly intelligent and well-spoken… but haven’t been armed with even a basic grounding in scientific method or the traps of various logical fallacies. It says quite a lot about our educational system.

    Keep up the good work :-) I’m sure you’ll get through to a few of them.

  • For a lot of people the “chemtrail” theory is simply a natural extension of a wider set of beliefs about the “powers that be” and their overarching conspiracies. Many of those are rather intangible, like claiming the “Bilderbergers” run the world. Chemtrails, on the other hand, are much more amenable to scientific discussion, which is why their arguments generally fail when subjected to scrutiny.

    Now, if they could just put up some actual evidence:

    http://contrailscience.com/chemtrails-the-best-evidence/

  • Uncinus seems very passionate about this “hobby”.

    How does one ever decide to make THIS a hobby, and at what point does it leave the realm of “hobby” and become something more?

    What process occurred to make Uncinus become so passionate about an issue such as this? With this kind of zeal, it is quite possible that Uncinus could become a danger to others.

    For the answer, look to the writings of Cass Sunstein. Mr. Sunstein has some ideas about how the State can deal with the Uncinuses of the world, before any harmful crimes can be committed in the name of an extreme cause.

    Those who do not share the potentially dangerous, extreme position of Uncinus can keep a log of their observations, including video. Raise the awareness of this man- made climate change.

  • I think perhaps you have my position backwards? But anyway, thanks for the pointer to Sunstein. His Conspiracy Theories paper is very interesting.

    http://ContrailScience.com/files/SSRN-id1084585.pdf

    In fact, I’m going to add it to my links section.

  • What is extreme about accepted scientific fact?

    As for raising awareness- atmospheric scientists have been aware…and concerned for sometime about persistent contrails and their potential for climate effects.

    Feel free to review the 100s of papers written regarding the nature of contrails- their persistence, spreading and transition into cirrus clouds- such as this one:

    “Contrail-Cirrus and Their Potential for Regional Climate Change”
    Kenneth Sassen- Department of Meteorology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah
    Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society
    Volume 78, Issue 9 (September 1997)

    http://tinyurl.com/yjjmgff

  • SR1419
    thanks, more fuel for the fire.
    Like I said, “normal contrails” could be already
    Deliberately used for “experimental weather modification”.

  • Well, all kinds of stuff “could” be being done. But that’s not the point is it? The point is that people are claiming that contrails are changed. Yet they can’t produce any evidence that they have changed.

  • ….indeed, they could be used for deliberate weather modification….if they knew what the net effect of contrail cirrus were…which they don’t.

    Do they trap more heat than they block?

  • Council on Foreign Relations, March 10, 2010. “Developing an International Framework for Geoengineering”

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/21651/developing_an_international_framework_for_geoengineering.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cfr_main+%28CFR.org+-+Main+Site+Feed%29

    ————————————————————————–
    I am tired of these conspiracy theorists who think that the sky is supposed to be blue! The normal color of the sky is whitish-blue, with a light haze. Duh.

    These people who think that aerosols are being deposited in the sky are the same folks who think that people in positions of power are susceptible to corruption. What utter nonsense to think such a thing! Everyone knows that if you are in a position of power, you become immune to corruption. It’s science, people!

    Show me one instance in history where a government has knowingly and willfully ran tests or inflicted harm on it’s citizens. That’s right- you can’t, because governments don’t harm their citizens. The larger the government, the more love and care there is for the citizenry.

    These nuts who are obsessed with using critical thinking and their eyes for observation are the same kind who believe that the H1N1 vaccine is harmful and ineffective.

    They don’t realize that global governance is all about love for them.

    Why are people so obsessed with thinking for themselves? Everything is fine. Do you really think that the government would cover it up if they were doing something underhanded? Really?

    Would a NASA scientist decieve you?

  • Ah yes, Cass Sunstein!

    What I love about Sunstein is that he understands how dangerous the first ammendment of the United States Constitution is. He understands that we need to abolish free speech.

    I’ve read quite a bit of Sunstein recently. He writes about people like Uncinus who crawl the web , and the danger they pose for society. Hopefully very soon we can ban free speech.

    If you read through all the comments here, you can see how Uncinus is dangerously obsessed with this issue. I am very fearful that soon he may decide to act on his impulses, so today I will create a report for the information czar. Who knows what Uncinus will do?

  • I am tired of these conspiracy theorists who think that the sky is supposed to be blue! The normal color of the sky is whitish-blue, with a light haze. Duh.

    I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but that bit is actually correct. Especially as you look towards the horizon, the water in the air gives it a whitish tint. If you look vertically up, directly over your head, it’s a deeper blue because you are looking through less atmosphere.

    It varies with where you live. It’s going to be whiter when you are near the ocean, or a large lake.

    And regarding your other points. It’s easy to speculate about what the government might do, but another thing entirely to show any evidence that they are actually doing it.

    Do you have any evidence beside the sky not being the blue you think it should be?

  • You might communicate more effectively if you actually said what you think, rather than being facetious.

    I’m assuming, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you think I’m an agent of the kind that Sunstein suggested, paid to inject science, facts, logic and reason into the insular worlds of conspiracy theorists who might bomb federal buildings?

    Well, I’m not. So let’s stick to the facts here: the total lack of evidence to support the chemtrail theory.

  • There is no evidence to validate the use of the word “chemtrail.”

    Last Thursday, dozens of aircraft were recorded leaving trails of completely harmless water vapor.

    The vapors spread out across the sky and created a haze over the sky.

    It went from clear and sunny, to cloud covered in the matter of a couple hours.

    If not for the aircraft, it would have been beautiful all day long.

    The climate changed and man caused it.

    Council on Foreign Relations, March 10, 2010. “Developing an International Framework for Geoengineering”

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/21651/developing_an_international_framework_for_geoengineering.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cfr_main+%28CFR.org+-+Main+Site+Feed%29

  • Yes, contrails cause overcast skies sometimes, it depend on the weather. They have done this since the 1950s.

    So what’s your point?

    What’s the evidence that contrails now are any different?

    And which bit of that long transcript says that anyone is using contrails now (and for the last 10-50 years) for geoengineering?

  • I don’t like when man causes the sun’s light to be blocked by artificial means.

  • I think this looks like the same argument CTYForg has been suggesting as follows:

    Even if it is only water vapor it becomes either visual pollution or it is altering the weather by its very nature and those that would like to alter the weather are happy it’s happening by accident and not doing anything to prevent it.

    Not chemtrails per se? Simply the law of unintended consequences at work through persistant contrails?

  • Like say, the smoke from millions of cooking fires in Asia? Industrial pollution? Smog? Who would like such a thing?

    Contrails do sometimes cloud the sky. You don’t like it. The problem is that most people are indifferent.

    But you don’t seem to be arguing that. You seem to be suggesting that someone is doing it deliberately. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

  • Sunicnu:

    “There is no evidence to validate the use of the word “chemtrail.”
    There is no evidence to validate the use of the word “chemtrail.”

    “Last Thursday, dozens of aircraft were recorded leaving trails of completely harmless water vapor.”
    Last Thursday, dozens of aircraft were recorded leaving trails of completely harmless water vapor.

    “The vapors spread out across the sky and created a haze over the sky.”
    The vapors spread out across the sky and created a haze over the sky.

    “It went from clear and sunny, to cloud covered in the matter of a couple hours.”
    It went from clear and sunny, to cloud covered in the matter of a couple hours.

    “If not for the aircraft, it would have been beautiful all day long.”
    Wrong. The trails can be very beautiful – if not to you then to others.

    “The climate changed and man caused it.”
    Wrong. The world’s climate has nothing to do with you, and the immediate sky over your head. By assaying all human global weather heat inputs it is already known that 3.5% of anthropogenic climate change is attributable to aviation. The other 96.5% is due to Man, but about a five hundred millionth part of THAT is down to YOU.

    ““Developing an International Framework for Geoengineering””
    Let’s hope that if the need for geo-engineering the Earth’s atmosphere ever arises, then this framework will be helpful, eh?

  • I don’t like when man causes the sun’s light to be blocked by artificial means.

    That is understandable. Nobody likes pollution….and yet that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been happening for decades…nor does it mean that the man-made cirrus clouds were intentionally “sprayed” and contain nefarious materials…

    physics dictate the behavior of water vapor in the atmosphere.

    Measurements of the Growth of the Ice Budget in a Persisting Contrail
    R.G. Knollenberg
    Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
    Volume 29, Issue 7 (October 1972)

    “It is often observed that contrails spread considerably…Under favorable conditions, a lateral spread of kilometers is observed…If sufficient air traffic exists, and entire overcast of contrail cirrus may develop and persist for hours with rapid growth in the ice budget of individual contrails.”

    http://contrailscience.com/files/1970-AMS-i1520-0469-27-6-937.pdf

  • “You seem to be suggesting that someone is doing it deliberately.”

    Do you have any evidence showing that I suggest this?

  • “You seem to be suggesting that someone is doing it deliberately.”

    Do you have any evidence showing that I suggest this?

    Are you suggesting it? I’m only saying that you seem to be. It’s an easy problem to solve – just stop talking in riddles and say what you mean.

  • Sunicnu, I failed to mention that the “water vapor” which you complain about is JUST THAT.

    The trail ice precipitates, falls, and evaporates in a cycle. Were it not for the fact that the stratosphere is always in motion (average speed 50+ mph), the very same ice would possibly pass through this cycle.

    All that is happening is that a million tons of water from aviation finds its way (with the accompanying oxides of carbon, nitrogen and sulfur) into the stratosphere. Some cycles, some gets dumped at Hadley Cell boundaries, and becomes weather.

    Compared with what’s up there already that million tons of water is like a water droplet into a fair-sized lake.

    Water has a warming forcing, but also SCRUBS the skies of all the other oxides with a very high efficiency. What happened to the hundreds of millions of tons of volcano dust emissions?

    The effect of this water in the atmosphere is neither consequential nor permanent. It’s here today, and Guatemala.

  • Uncinus,

    Don’t you wish that somebody would pay you for doing this?

  • Why are we seeing new types and new classifications of clouds?

    I have texts from the eighties that make no mention of these new special clouds.

  • You really have to be suspicious of somebody who puts this much effort and time into proving that something “does not exist!”

  • Uncinus,

    Don’t you wish that somebody would pay you for doing this?

    Sure, but I’d only do it if my financial interest were fully disclosed.

    I’m not paid though, nor is there anyone, or any entity, involved in this web site besides myself.

  • Ok I see you now. Good bye.

  • Why are we seeing new types and new classifications of clouds?

    I have texts from the eighties that make no mention of these new special clouds.

    Now that’s an interesting question. We are not actually seeing new types of clouds. What happened was that someone decided that the current system of cloud classification does not have enough resolution – meaning there are some clouds that fall between two classifications – they share features of both, but belong to neither. Like say you have blue and green, but then someone points out there is this color aquamarine that is somewhere inbetween.

    With the clouds the only example I’m aware of is undulatus asperatus. Note that NONE of the scientists involved said this is a type of clouds that has not been seen before. It’s just a refinement of the classification system. In part it’s one brought on by the proliferation of high quality digital cameras and image enhancement software (to improve the contrast, as you see in the most dramatic photos of asperatus).

    Was there another example you had in mind?

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