Chemtrail Myths
Some people believe that the government is spraying something into the air, and this creates unsual looking contrails. They call these “chemtrails”. Now, there is no real evidence that “chemtrails” are real, but there are several myths on the internet about “chemtrails”. All these myths can very easily be shown to be false, and I’ve gathered the most popular myths here as a little time-saver for the person who has encountered “chemtrails” for the first time.
Myth #1 – Normal contrails don’t last very long, but “chemtrails” last for hours and sometimes spread out.
False – Contrails fade away, or persist, or even spread out to cover the sky, depending on the weather conditions. you can confirm this by looking in an encyclopedia. such as the Encyclopædia Britannica
[Contrails] may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.
For more info on this myth, read “Persisting and Spreading contrails”
Myth #2 - Contrails have been observed to persist and spread when the humidity was too low, so they must be “chemtrails”
False – Nobody has ever measured low humidity within a persisting contrail. The fact is it is very difficult to measure humidity in a specific region at a specific altitude, at a given time, the best you can do is make a rough prediction. Measurements are made by weather balloons at just a few stations that average 235 miles apart, at 12 hour intervals, and then local predictions are extrapolated from this. The weather balloons can drift as much as 100 miles in their ascent, so you never know where the measurements are coming from. Humidity can vary by as much as 80% in a 12 hour period, and vary by similar amount over just a few miles. The fact that the contrail is spreading is actually a far more accurate indicator of high humidity than the available humidity predictions. NASAs own experiments (right) show persisting contrails over a large range of calculated humidities, even down to 10%.
Myth #3 – Long lasting contrails have appeared in “parallel lines”, “grid” and “X” formations, which are not normal, so must be “chemtrails.
False. Well, the last bit is false. Yes, contrails make all kinds of patterns in the sky, simply because there are a lot of planes flying overhead, and they fly in all directions. This is pretty much a function of where you live, and the prevailing winds. For example, if you live the Willamette Valley, Oregon, the overflying planes are nearly all North/South, so you’ll get parallel lines. If you live live in more central place, like North Texas, you’ll get planes flying overhead in every direction, so you will get “X” patterns (and “H” and “grids”). If there’s enough wind, and the trails last long enough, then the grid might spread out to cover the sky.
Myth #4 – A bill to ban chemtrails was introduced into congress by Dennis Kucinich, but quickly had chemtrails edited out.
False – HR 2977 was written by a bunch of UFO enthusiasts intent on exposing a conspiracy to suppress alien technology. Dennis Kucinich did not write the bill, he not know what chemtrails were, and when he found out, he distanced himself from that language. The bill was re-written in order that it might pass. See the full article: Kucinich, Chemtrails and HR 2977.
Myth #5 – Public Law 105-85 gives the military permission to experiment with chemical and biological weapons on humans, without their consent
False – 105-85, Sec. 1078, actually prevents experiments except for peaceful purposes, and those can only be performed if informed consent is obtained from each test subject. It’s basically the same procedure as for human drug trials.
SUMMARY
Those myths are really the basis of the “chemtrail” conspiracy theory. There is more, of course, like the halos and sun-dogs that you sometimes see (normal atmospheric optical effects), the dark lines (shadows of varying types), the stuff on the ground (unconnected). But these things really get to the heart of 99% of the chemtrail argument. After they are dispensed with, the theory holds about as much water as alien mind-control implants.
Let me know if you’ve got something else you’d like investigating, and I might add it here.
Just leave a comment below.
813 comments Friday 18 May 2007 | Uncinus | contrails
If these are normal “everyday” jet contrails, then how come some days the sky is littered with them and other days there are none at all? I live in the Denver area and I work outdoors and have been closely watching the sky everyday for the past four years, and there are always the “normal” looking, non persistent contrails visible on clear days, however on average the persistent contrails appear about 3 to 4 times a week with sometimes longer gaps in-between. Today, there were massive amounts of persistent trails that lingered and spread out eventually covering the ENTIRE sky with a milky brownish white vail, and yesterday there were no persistent trails at all, and both days were warm and very dry. I’m not supporting any conspiracy theories here, but I can’t deny what I’ve been seeing with my own eyes everyday for the past four years. Something’s up.
Hi Trent. It’s because the weather varies from day to day. Some days the conditions are right for contrails to persist and spread, and sometime they are not. It’s always been like this, although there are more planes in the sky now than a few decades ago.
Are the weather conditions really that drastically different at flying altitude than they are on the ground? Because the past two days have been identical, weather-wise, in the 70’s and VERY dry, but two very different days contrail-wise.
Also, is it really a normal thing for contrails alone to spread and COMPLETELY cover the sky leaving no blue sky at all? If it is, I still think it’s a horrible thing to witness. It just doesn’t seem right.
Yes, the weather conditions are very different at flying altitude. In Denver right now at 30,000 feet it’s -46F, and 65mph winds, but on the ground it’s +55F, and 7mph winds. See:
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=DEN&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
The weather aloft varies more than the weather on the ground particularly because of those high winds – they move the masses of air around a lot quicker. You also have to consider the Jet Stream, which kind of snakes around from day to day, bringing very radical changes in the weather at altitude.
http://content.gannettonline.com/weather/images/jetstream.jpg
And yes, it is normal for contrails to spread out and cover the sky, if the condition are right. I wrote a whole article on just this question:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
Thanks for addressing my questions.
I am curious to know who it is you work for, and why you have such a extensive site dedicated solely on dubunking the chemtrail “myth”. People aren’t as stupid as you claim them to be. You are obviously a part of some sort of agenda. Why do you care so much? These anomolous contrails have not been around since the beginning of jet aviation as you so steadfastly claim. There is definately something going on that warrants questions and investigating. You probably believe (or at least say) that there is absolutely nothing wrong with anything going on in the world, huh?, that everything is in its right place and there are no such thing as vaild conpsiracies, and every bit of truth is known to the general public and that our government holds no secrets. You know, it’s not healthy to take everything at face value, its not healthy to never question anything that doesn’t seem right.
People are starting to wake up to the fact that our government is constantly lying to us, and people like you are determined to perpetuate those lies and cover-ups. What’s in it for you? Why are you doing this? How do you sleep at night?
Hi Larry, did you have a question about any of the “Myths” I listed above? I think the science is correct, but if you have a comment or a question, I’d be happy to address it.
As for who I work for, I don’t work for anyone in connection with this site, it’s just a hobby. I’m an amateur pilot, and the weather is always interesting to pilots – particularly clouds.
Again though, is there anything wrong with my science here?
Very strange hobby you have here “Uncinus”. It must be quite fustrating dealing with all these people not buying anything you’re saying here. Ever try golf?
What exactly is it that you don’t buy? For the sake of argument, if I’m working for the New World Order as a disinformation agent, then is there anything I’ve said that is actually incorrect? Do contrails not persist? What’s the problem here?
You said “These anomolous contrails have not been around since the beginning of jet aviation”, and yet I show newspaper clippings and photos that show that they have (and before, as prop planes also create contrails). So how can you argue otherwise?
Okay, so sorry. I will never again question anything you say. Contrailscience.com will become my new religion and I will blindly believe everything and anything you say here. “Argument” is for suckers anyways. Uncinus, you are my new lord and savoir, a veritable debunking god, and a champion of the people.
I’d welcome questions.
I think chemtrails are real
I don’t remember seeing big fat fluffy trails from jet planes when i was a kid in the 80’s
Only from the late 90’s and onwards
The trails from planes from the early 80’s were a very thin line that quickly vanished after a few moments.. on any day, any weather. *shrugs*
NWO. Yes, a lot of people think that this failing to remember something means that it was not there. But you are seeming them now because you are looking for them. How much attention did you pay to contrails when you were a kid?
Don’t trust your memory. Trust photographs. Your memory differs from photographs.
There’s are lots of photos of contrails from the 80s and before, that look just like current contrails. Sometimes they fade quickly, sometimes they last a long time, and even spread out. See:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-photos-through-history/
Of if you want multiple sources from a particular time, try:
http://books.google.com/books?as_brr=3&q=contrails+date%3A1950-1988&btnG=Search+Books
I don’t believe in Chemtrails either !
No way … they do NOT exist.
Only in your mind.
People are wasting their time with the silly utube videos they post.
They are senseless meaningless and also useless.
Jazzroc is correct … no Chemtrails !
Just lies and disinfo.
People, who are you going to believe, the guard who watches over the treasure or are we all going to be so foolish as to believe the accomplice who hopes to divide the spoil with the thief?
People, wake up! Can anyone who came to this site say DIS-INFORMATION???????
The cry of “disinformation” is a common one amongst those who can’t actually find anything wrong with something. So whenever you see someone say “this site is disinformation”, it really means “I can’t find anything wrong with this site”
Joe, if there’s anything incorrect here, then point it out.
I wuz just kidding … I bin filming CT’s in Canada since 2001 … wake up folks … you are being sprayed with chemicals by your ‘authorities’.
Unicus,
thank you for all the time you put into this.
I am also a commercial pilot very interested in weather, and especially interested in debunking all kind of conspiracy theories. I have spent years, and made some progress in the Apollo ‘hoax’ community.
I am fairly experienced in aviation, weather, and ‘bandwagon’ psychology from my flight experience, college, and years of discussions with the Apollo hoax believers.
If you need any help writing stuff, let me know!
Matt Hecker
I think you did a good job at putting together information for people to make there own mind up. I would not call it disinfo as others have, because it is very possible that you really do have an interest in this subject, after all it’s not so hard to believe that a pilot would be interested in this stuff.
I’m not one of those crazy people who just hears something and then just have a rock solid belief in it without looking at the other side of the argument and making my own mind up.
However, i can understand how people show such distrust towards the goverment and i do believe the subject should be looked into more.
Here is a related article which i was reading today
http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/Articles/Chemtrails_In_US_Schools.htm
And as for “global warming” well thats just a whole different subject *pfft*
Thanks for the feedback NWO.
The Will Thomas article is interesting, and does tangentiall raise some valid concerns of corporate influence in school text books. But it’s a bit of a leap to go from possibly bad science in a passing mention to something in an obscure seventh grade (12 year olds) text book, to some kind of global conspiracy. Circumstantial evidence can be found anywhere if you pick and choose.
Of course conspiracies do exist. Iran-Contra and Watergate – were both essentially conspiracies. The question here is if there is any evidence that suggest that persistent spreading contrails are part of a government conspiracy. When you actually look at the available evidence it seems fairly clear that these contrails are just the same as they always were, and given that, there’s no reason to suspect anything unusual is going on.
Of course that does not mean that there isn’t either, but it helps to have at least some evidence (besides a presumed malign intent and propensity for evil acts on the part of the secret government) before you start believing specific things.
Most people seem to have:
1) The government is evil.
2) Those clouds look unlike clouds I remember from 20 years ago.
3) Chemtrails are an evil government plot.
I paid close attention to contrails as a child. I carefully observed every single one I could set my eyeballs on and counted the minutes until they dissapeared. I never saw them behave the way they do today, thick plumes that spread out into a guazy haze that covers the sky. No, not when I was little; they simply did not do that.
A lot of people say similar things, C. I wonder why this might be, when there is overwhelming evidence that contrails have always been able to persist, spread out and cover the sky.
I think what you are remembering is not a representative sample. Instead, there was perhaps one summer when you spend some time counting contrails, and then, as is very frequent in many places, the weather conditions were not right for persistent contrails to form.
Could you say, for example, for how many years you did this? And how many days of each year? And in what season? What location? What was the weather like? Did you ever see a contrail spread out?
Unless you can answer those questions, I’m afraid your recollections are simply childhood anecdotes. I don’t mean to insult your recollection abilities, but memory is a funny thing, and you really should have additional evidence besides “I remember contrails were different when I was young”.
This website is a psyop…oh yeah..everything is okydokey folks. Nothing but harmless mist over us. Mercury in vaccines, a new Department of “Homeland” Security, Patriot Act, presidential directives destroying the Bill of Rights. Read the PNAC document and check out the governments HAARP site. Breathe deep, enjoy the tyranny.
PNAC is an imperialist neocon think-tank. HAARP is very open about their research, which seems pretty harmless. Mercury is no longer used in vaccines, yet autism is still rising. I’m not sure what your point is – just general dislike of the government?
Contrails are basically a “harmless mist”, just like clouds are. Even if all your fears about the government are true, what does this have to do with contrails? Do you think the government is spraying you just because you can’t think why they are not? You don’t actually have any evidence, do you?
So what then should we make of this report, soon the new Morgellons Disease will be found to be connected to chemtrail spraying
“From the July 2006 Idaho Observer:
http://www.santacruzhousing.net/observer/20060704.htm
If you are not a DIS-INFO agent, then why are you hiding behind a domain proxy, come clean and let everyone here know who you are. Those who support conspiracy have nothing to hide, but it appears that you do!
You should make light of it, for it is a truly stupid report.
I am not a “DIS-INFO agent”. You can verify this by the facts I post, and the absence of inaccurate information. My domain registration has nothing to do with it.
Great work, Uncinus, with this entire website. I have science friends who feel that conspiracy theories should not be addressed in detail, for fear of lending them credence. I’m not certain they’re wrong, but I prefer to think we live in a world where junk thinking can be defeated head-on, the way you do here.
Thanks Allen, I think of it from the perspective of the person who has just had “chemtrails” explained to them. If there is nothing rebutting the theory, then they are more likely to perpetuate it.
You know the “true believers” can’t change. But not everyone is quite so hard headed.
Plus, I find the whole topic interesting, from every angle: scientific, psychological and sociological.
I’d also like to commend your work Uncinus.
I was introduced to idea of ‘Chemtrails’ a few years ago, and have come across it a number of times since. I’ve always kind of passed it off as yet-another-conspiracy, but it’s nice to have some solid evidence to counter the standard arguments made by believers.
And, more in response to Allen McBride, I’ve always felt that education was far more powerful than simply ignoring the problem. It seems that those who zealously believe without proof will do so regardless of whether you ‘fight back’ or not; however, if you are lucky, in the course of attempted education you may manage to save a few critical thinkers from a fate of ignorance.
And lastly, to Givemeabreak; I don’t blame Uncinus for using a proxy. Many zealots, whether right or wrong, go to ridiculous extremes when dealing with their area of interest. I see using a proxy as nothing more than a very wise act of self-protection.
You seem to overlook the fact that both German and British governments have admidet to spraying over Great Britain and Germany in the past, but refuse to tell if it still going on, it is not the policy to discuss ongoing researshes as Sue Ellis, spokesman for Porton Down said: “Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.”
“The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.”
Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: “It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
You describe the tests as “spraying over Great Britain and Germany”, but in reality there was very little spraying. The guardian article mentions a set of airborne releases of zinc cadmium sulphide about 40 years ago, done to test how the wind would scatter such a release. Other tests were done at ground level. The tests continued for 30 years, but were quite infrequent, averaging maybe ten a year.
All the tests were done to see how chemical and biological weapons might spread. In the tests they used agents that were thought to be totally harmless, sometimes they just used water. The tests were done so that defenses could be created. It was done in secret so the enemy (The Soviet Union) would not be able to circumvent the defenses.
It’s a huge leap to go from a few tests that nobody noticed 40 years ago, to a massive campaign of daily high altitude spraying. Where is the connection? The entire though process seems to be:
1) Hey, I don’t remember contrails lasting that long, and there’s lots of them!
2) 40 years ago, some military tests were performed in secret!
3) Therefore, persisting contrails are secret military experiments!
No, you really need a little more than that. For a start, the fact that contrails last a long time has been documented since 1921.
So what exactly are you arguing, that the military sometimes conducts tests without informing the public? Of would you like to say something about contrails?
You can read details of the UK tests here:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/70A71F1A-831B-4618-918E-D263384DA684/0/ZincCadmiumSulphideDispersionTrials.pdf
And the US trials here:
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5739&page=R1
Note in the UK trials, the Cadmium was released at 300m (1000 feet). None of these tests have any resemblance to persistent contrails.
Chemtrails are actually term used to debunk the whole issue, it is better to goggle “Aerosol” and “cloud seeding” for info on the subject, cloud seeding is actually a blooming bissness today…http://www.weathermod.com/seeding_equipment.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp6QLOl69aM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duxr53aFCog
Ever heard of “Operation Popeye” ? http://www.sunshine-project.org/enmod/US_Congr.html
Me again, found this link from alex jones website “infowars”
http://www.infowars.com/?p=815
An article about a german news report which claims that scientists have discovered this is really going on. The link also includes the german news report which has been translated into English.
“We can state with a 97% certainty that we have on our hands chemical trails (chemtrails) comprised by fine dust containing polymers and metals, used to disrupt radar signals.”
May also be worth your time to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYyvk9Lp-A&feature=related
40 minutes long but goes into a fair amount of detail.
“You notice a distinct change then from the 1990’s era?”
“distinct is not the word, dramatic, devastating, you can pick out any adjective that you want”
I tend to agree, people are noticing the changing our our skys all over the world and i don’t buy into what you have to say about “not trusting our memorys” People i know whom i have not spoken to about this subject have had an instinctive reaction that not all is as it should be in our skies. And have then sought to seek infomation on the subject. People everywhere, everyday are finding something wrong with the way the sky looks. Are all these people just imagining it?
I do not pretend to know what you’re motives are for this website, as i’ve said before, you very well may be a firm true believer that “chemtrails” are in fact non- existent. But i have looked at both sides of the argument and i am very much swinging towards chemtrails being a very real and potentially hazardous reality.
NWO, regarding the german news report, it’s basically a mistranslation, as the story is about chaff. The same reporter also says very explicitly that they are not “chemtrails”, and that the chemtrail theory holds little water. See:
http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
Apart from “I’ve heard that people only started noticing this recently”, what would you say the best evidence is?
And regarding Carnicoms video. Just stop. really, stop, and listen to what he says in the first two minutes.
He says that “normal contrails disappear quickly”
That’s the entire premise of his video. Yet it’s one that you will not find in any science book, of scientific paper, or any book on the weather, or any encyclopedia. In fact they ALL agree that contrails can persist for a long time, and can spread out and cover the sky with haze.
They all agree on this, and they always have. Here are a bunch of references:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
Here is a video from 1963 that says the same thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVPjGG-Hvg
That was written before 1963!
So, all the science books contradict Carnicom. Why then do you give his video credence?
Apart from “I’ve heard that people only started noticing this recently”, what would you say the best evidence is?
Well look, I see planes going over my house everyday that seem to have very very large fat plumes of “smoke” comming out behind it. If I didn’t know any better i might think the plane is on fire.. it’s sometimes that bad. Contrails should be thin lines that follow the plane and don’t often persist for long. I know you say over and over again that contrails can persist, but come on.. I am seeing something that is not contrails and so are millions of other people. Why would people suddenly be seeing these things all of a sudden if there was not something to it?
As for the german news report, i will get a german speaking friend to help me with that. My german is very rusty so forgive me for using that video in this debate. If it turns out that the news report has been misunderstood then by all means discount that from the subject.
You should not be so trusting of the goverments.
Also when i see commercial jets flying over taking people on hoilday, i notice they have a normal contrail or non at all.
It’s the unmarked jets which almost always have the persisting large fluffy trails which hang around for hours and spread out forming a thick white blanket over the entire sky.
You use science to explain your side of the argument (and rightly so as well) but try to remember this so called science was created by some of the same lousy people who came up with global warming. Sometimes it is nesserary to use your power of observation and to think outside of the little box that has been handed to you.
NWO, can you give me one reference that says that “normal” contrails should not persist for long?
I’ve looked in the science books, and they all agree that contrails can persists and spread, depending on the weather. Look here:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
And here’s a video of a book from 1963 that says:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nmVPjGG-Hvg
I don’t trust the government, nobody should. However, all the old science books, the old text books, the newspaper archives, the old weather books and all the scientists and weather men ALL agree that contrails can persist and spread out. They have not changed their opinion since spreading contrails were first observed in 1921.
“All the old science books”
Old science books can be found to be incorrect
“newspaper archives”
The media is controlled by the goverment, they should be the last people to find infomation from and use that as truth
“all the scientists”
Thats a bold claim and can’t be proved unless all of them came here right now and gave thier own view.
“weather men ALL agree that contrails can persist and spread out”
Let me just go ask ALL of them… And even if they did ALL agree then it would only because they all read the same books in college. And gave the same answers to pass the tests so they could be weather men/woman
One thing i have learned from life is that if you give a different answer or opinion to the status quo, you don’t get very far. Free and new thinking just makes you a crazy tinfoil hat person.
Oh and i’m glad you don’t trust the goverment.
At least we can relate on something.
Not just the old science books, the new ones as well. I just said the old books as it’s less likely that the conspiracy would be altering science books from 1963. The point is that every single source of information I’ve looked at has agreed that contrails can persist and spread out.
Can you point to ONE that says the opposite?
Why do you think that contrails can’t persist and spread out?
Lets assume that chemtrails are in fact real just for a moment, then would it not make sense for all the text books and infomation sources that you take as the gospel truth, to be riddled with disinfomation and false science? After all, it would cover there backs when the “spraying project” begins. Call me paranoid or whatever.. But something to think about.
And the real catch 22 would be that the average joe blogs would find it hard to discount the holy science book, even thou they are seeing something that just does not look right.. it really is that simple.. these things in the sky do not look right.. i know thats not very scientific but observation should not be ignored.
I do think that under some conditions normal contrails can persist for SLIGHTY longer due to different temperatures, but thats not the point. The point is we are seeing what looks like SMOKE, solid looking particels that seems heavier than air. And were also seeing jets at very similar altitudes doing different things, for example one jet giving a normal looking contrail and the other letting out a big fat old smoke trail that is about 10 times bigger than the contrail.
And i know it is almost impossible to judge from using nothing but the eye how high a plane is, but knowing that most of the jets are around the same size you can make quite an accruate estimate if the two jets are at a very similar altitude. So with this in mind, why wpuld one trail be a thin normal contrail and one be a fat fluffy aerosol looking trail?
So you think all the science books in the world, though all of recorded history have been changed?
They are not at the same altitude. A plane at 31,000 feet can leave a trail where a plane at 33,000 feet will not. You can’t tell the difference in altitude from the ground, especially if the planes are different sizes – which they generally are.
NWO, do you know what contrails are made from? Would you consider tiny ice crystals to be “solid looking particles that seems heavier than air”
Feel free to ignore my post as I know next to nothing about the subject! Anyways I think that maybe NWO does believe that contrails happen naturally, the science books describe them correctly as does everyone, including yourself.
I think the confusion comes from somthing else.. Two trails, “Chemtrails” and “Contrails”. I think maybe NWO considers that these two types of trails are not connected other than coming from aircraft. One trail is printed about in books and talked about by scientists the other is not.
I don’t know what to believe myself, I don’t know enough about the science of Contrails to know the difference, I am sure others do and if chemicals are being spread by governments for whatever purpose then we should know.
Long live free speech and places like this to allow us to share views.
Yep that is pretty much what i was trying to say… thanks
Dude, I think there is some truth in what you say. “Chemtrails” are of course a theoretical possibility, so you can talk about them as if they exist.
The root problem here is that there is no evidence that “chemtrails” are anything other than contrails. But as you say, for some people the distinction has already been made, so they get annoyed when you talk about contrails, when they are clearly talking about chemtrails.
Still, the problem remains that there is no evidence that the things that people point to and say “that’s a chemtrail” are anything different from contrails. They look and act exactly alike, so what is the difference?
NWO, that’s not what you were saying. You said the science books described contrails incorrectly.
“So you think all the science books in the world, though all of recorded history have been changed”?
Not all, just the topics on the this subject.. and not changed either, originally wrote with that content. And i don’t think thats 100% true, but it is a possibility that infomation could be faked to fool normal people.
So when a book from 1963, written by a Professor of theoretical mechanics, and the director of research at the United State Weather bureau says:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nmVPjGG-Hvg
Do you think:
A) They are correct
B) They are lying
C) They are mistaken
D) They never wrote that, and it was forged later.
I think I may have to delve a bit deeper into this subject, but tbh I don’t particularly think all the science books have been faked. If there are chemtrails then maybe they just wernt wrote about, this would make sense of we wern’t meant to know about them..
I think maybe people get hungup on the use of words, lets ignore contails and so called chemtrails. Lets say that the governments for whatever reason (pacifying, global warming) are spraying the earth with chemicals, we should talk about it and find out if it is true. If it isnt then we can move on, if it is then we should know. I doubt very much if there has been many scientists looking into these trails, lets hope with talk like this we find the truth.
I go for
E: The disinfo goes back to the 60’s or even earlier in preparation for the project
Perhaps…
I would go for A) and C)
To be honest I don’t know why you guys keep going round in circles, I agree with Uncinus that not enough is known about the differences and I believe that more research is required before the truth is known
You don’t agree with me, as I think there is no evidence that there is any difference.
Are you saying there is ANY evidence? Of anything at all? Can you point us to this evidence? Or is this all just a hypothetical theory based on nothing?
“They look and act exactly alike, so what is the difference?”
I took that as admiting that there are two seperate trails, just that there is confirmed evidence for one and as yet not for the other.
Personally I have not yet made up my mind, but one has to be aware that such things can happen bo matter what name you give them.
Unless you work for MI5/6 or the CIA and have some inside knowledge of secret projects then proof will only come in time.
Oh.. maybe we are writing the history books for our grandchildren, what a comforting thought lol
When I say “They look and act exactly alike, so what is the difference?”, I mean that photos of supposed “chemtrails” look just like photos of contrails (from the present, and from 40 years ago).
What is the latest news on the scientists that are taking their government to court because of the chemtrail operations?
I believe unlike you they happen to specialise in the science of the atmosphere and the weather.
How can qualified scientists be so wrong about all this?
How can you be so right about it?
What about declassified government documents from the military showing weather modification operations were experimented with during the 1940’s? (do your own research or FOIA)
What about science journals that point out contrails normally do not persist for any longer than several minutes?
I hope you can explain this for us.
Thank you.
I can explain it.
The scientist taking the government to court you refer to is a German meterologist, Karsten Brandt, who is concerned they are using too much chaff. He specifically says it is not chemtrails. See:
http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
Weather modification has been done since the 40s, and is not classified. There are several weather modification companies operating right now. All it is is seeding clouds to make rain or snow. Contrails form at a much higher altitude, and are unrelated.
Science journals all point out that contrails can persist for hours and spread out to cover the sky. Here are some examples:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
You do not have any science journals that show otherwise, or you would have linked them.
Thank you Unicus for your voice of reason and scientific impartiality.
cheers!
Let’s assume you were able to convince me that chemtrails are not real because science says it is normal contrail activity and all that. There’s one more thing the science books, and even experts can’t explain away, and that’s the orb phenomenon.
In case you’re not familiar, many people have witnessed strange orb-shaped objects in the sky in conjunction with these specific contrails. Some people have reported seeing them with the naked eye, moving erratically, but many claiming they saw nothing with the naked eye or on camera but the objects appeared in the photos and videos. The very fact that these spherical UFOs are being reported flying alongside these specific contrails makes these specific contrails suspicious.
A couple of months ago I was taking a video of a chemtrail by my house. I didn’t see anything odd with my eyes, or on the camera’s viewfinder, but there was an unmistakable object flying around in circles above the chemtrail on the video. Thinking it may possible be a bird or some weird plane, I enhanced the image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/rams1/orbcontrast.jpg
The left is the untouched screencapture, the right is the version with emphasized edges. The object appears to be some kind of spherical aircraft, with 4 fins visible and a thrust that is consistent with the motion of the object in the video. In comparing the 2 versions, you can see that the object is actually invisible except for the front window of the aircraft. Take a look, it’s clearly not a bird, plane, balloon, or anything else that’s even been seen before.
So how do you explain that, Professor Contrail?
And by the way, I won’t believe a damn thing on the site until I know exactly who funds and maintains it. I’m not saying the science is wrong, per se, I’m saying I don’t have any evidence to believe that the science is TRUE. A scientist can say anything to someone who’s not a scientist and they’re obligated to believe it’s true because they’re not a scientist themselves.
Why exactly is it, Uncinus, that the vast majority of the so-called foundation of your “they’re nothing more than just normal, albeit a slightly less common form of the average, contrails” argument is links that stem directly from your own webpresence, rather than allowing the reader to view the original address(es) from which you gleaned your rock-solid knowledge? It’s been suggested previously that you “think outside the box that’s been handed to you”… how about letting the rest of us LINK outside the box you’re handing us?
This particular post is a summary which links to other posts. If you click on the links in those posts, you will find they all link to original source.
Try, for example, the links within this post:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
Which are:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074829
http://books.google.com/books?id=q0QI19T_POkC&dq=Field+Guide+to+the+Atmosphere
link 1
link 2
link 3
Together with a bunch of scans of newspapers from 1940-1970, which I can’t link to, but are nonetheless original sources.
Strange… both times I’ve tried posting a reply to my request for exposure of the links used here, it’s failed to post…
But I complain about not being able to reply freely, it posts… LMAO
So let’s try the long one again…
=================================================
Congrats, you have successfully sidestepped another one…
What about the airline mechanic who “came out” a few years back about firsthand experience with certain jetliners inside which he found extra controls, pipe/pumping systems apparently VERY cleverly disguised to blend in or use modified parts of the plane’s OEM structure to disperse who-knows-what?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/Apr_05/170405_Chemtrails.html
The original domain on which his story was featured has been taken down, for whatever reason, but the PrisonPlanet redistro is an unaltered copy thereof. Then there’s a two-page Las Vegas Tribune article:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/241105vegaschemtrails.htm
Comments made in that article about “globular filaments” and the like lend themselves pefectly to the explanations given an a now 4-year-old Q&A session I found only recently after renewing my research on the subject: http://www.whale.to/b/deep_shield.html
The “polymer threads” mentioned right from the beginning of the Deep Shield Q&A session would seem to be exactly what is being reported in the Vegas article, unless I’m just another “conspiracy theory wackjob” drawing misinformed conclusions to support my statements. The Deep Shield Q&A replies DIRECTLY ADMIT to the existence of chemically-laced sprays being applied to our atmosphere, for the purpose of creating a “temporary shield” against both UV and IR light. It also directly stated that “….commercial jet airliners are used and not diverted from their flight paths to do so.” The vaildity of the “mechanic story” I linked above is also directly questioned the this session, and cannot be entirely debunked or confirmed, although is quoted as being “very possible”…
There have been studies done on the “acceptable casualties” as result of the spraying in question, according to the source of the Deep Shield information, and as seems to be the case with most government-sponsored “solutions”, they know what it is they’re doing to the population but the ends justify the means…
Sorry, your post was being marked as spam, as it had more than two links. I un-spammed it, and changed the rule to five links.
I did not “side-step” your point, I directly addressed it, and even gave links.
Regarding the “airline mechanic” piece and “Deep Shield”, it’s impossible to address them as they are simply two anonymous stories, with no authority, and no way of verifying them. They look like hoaxes. You’d have to explain why you give them credence.
And, I’m sorry, but I give you several articles from the American Meteorological Society, and you give me The Las Vegas Tribune, a free local newspaper, which says:
WRONG! All of the science books agree that contrails can last a long time, and spread out to eventually cover the sky with a thin haze.
See:
http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/...
Also see “A Field Guide to the Atmosphere“, by Schaefer and Day, 1981:
Contrails persist and can spread out. Show me any science book that says they do not.
How nice of you to browbeat the semantics in my last post, I chose the word “sidestep” because you’ve repeatedly chosen not to directly address even the possibilty that even a small number of vapor trails left behind by airplanes COULD be something other than a harmless contrail. You offer the AMS and the Field Guide, repeatedly, to prove that contrails spread… we get that. The Britannica definition is quite clearly that of a CONtrail, we get that too. I saw the contrail ID page you have… yes, there’s more than one type, two of which hang in the sky for longer than usual, and one of those two which will spread if the upper-level conditions are right… point taken. The issue isn’t what makes a contrail a contrail, the rest of us are talking about what makes a contrail a CHEMtrail! Try doing some genuine research into the CHEMtrail quandry, instead of repeating the same knowledge over and over again.
I’m not here to deny the well-documented fact that CONtrails have been known to persist or spread, or both. There’s plenty of photgraphic proof that they do, and those actually researching the subject know it. Myself and some of the rest of us who’ve posted here, from the other side of the fence, are trying to get through to you that SOME of them AREN’T the harmless streaks that we’ve been groomed to think they all are…. a point you’ve consistently chosen to ignore, even with consistencies presented from unrelated (if anonymous) sources.
In terms of the anonymity of the sources from which the Deep Shield Q&A and “mechanic story” come, if someone with the kind of information that was offered by those sources, knowing the potential backlash they’d face if their identity WAS known, do you honestly believe they’d put it out there for the world, and the world’s agencies (black and otherwise), to see? Would YOU?
Personally, I doubt it.
“Anonymous” does not necessarily mean “unreliable”, or law enforcement agencies the world over wouldn’t give anonymous tips any merit, let alone RELY on them at times, would they? Also, you seem to look down your nose at the fact that the article I linked came from the the Las Vegas Tribune originally. Why, because it’s a “free local newspaper”? They’re guilty of one thing it seems, offering the same defining behavior about the difference between con- and chemtrails as has been offered up before. That faux paux was made at the very beginning of the article, so what about the rest of it? Does one mistake, and a fairly common one at that, merit trashing the rest of its content as worthless? I think not.
Immediately thereafter, the article continues, “…Last year a concerned reader wrote to the Idaho Observer: “Driving across Idaho and Nevada we saw normal condensation trails in the skies above north Idaho and we were habitually looking up as we drove toward Las Vegas. We had noticed that the sparsely populated areas in Nevada had brilliantly clear blue skies and that the occasional airplane left vapor trails that dissipated normally. But as soon as we neared Las Vegas, in the skies directly above the city, we watched what appeared to be a military C-135 Transports spraying something over the populated areas. When the planes were no longer directly over Las Vegas, they continued flying leaving a vapor trail that dissipated normally.” Yet another eyewitness account of tanker-planes giving off trails that actually CHANGED in a controlled fashion… but the source is anonymous and probably non-professional. Does that anonymity discredit the content of the account given because you can’t verify that it actually happened?
Another anonymous source, “a Washington State man who told award-winning investigative reporter William Thomas that he’d become ill on New Year’s Day 1999 after watching several jets make strange lines in the sky.” Also dismissable, right, because the identity of the “Washington State man” is unknown? What if (key words there) I told you that “Washington State man” was me? I do live in WA, and have seen similar things in the 25+ years I’ve lived here, and am intelligent enough to realize that a “normal” vapor trail can behave erraticly if conditions merit. I’m also intelligent enough NOT to stick my neck out to have my head removed from it by actually offering my identity to either source, but why not offer up the possibilty that it could have been, to get you thinking about something other than your own viewpoint.
To continue dissecting the Tribune article for you, a quote from the “investigative reporter” the aforementioned Washington State man told his story to, one William Thomas (a name for you to actually research): “Mainstream newspapers have gone out of their way to dismiss these eyewitness accounts, it’s easier to sell UFOs to major media than a phenomena as close in many cities as the nearest window.” Of course they have, and from your behavior here, so are you. The thought of our wonderfully pure and just government chemically altering the atmosphere to try and UNDO what we’ve DONE to it already, and doing it without TELLING US? Hogwash, right?
Rather than spoonfeed you the rest of the eyewitness accounts in the Tribune’s article, I ask that you actually read it again with an open mind.. and I’ve included the URL to William Thomas’ web presence for you, to cut down on how much “disinformation” and the number of irrelevant search returns you have to wade through:
http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/About_Chemtrails.htm
By the way, it’s no surprise that the “mechanic story” and the Deep Shield Q&A look like hoaxes to you… they actually deal directly with the subject at hand.
Well, of course the government could be spraying things on the population as part of global warming mitigation program.
They could be doing a lot of things. They could have faked the moon landings, they could be coving up aliens, they could be spying on you via the internet, they could be suppressing a DNA macroevolution, they could all be lizards.
However, there is no actual evidence of this spraying (or any of these other things). Just a few unreliable anecdotes. So why believe what you believe? Because you got sick one time?
The vast majority of chemtrails believers say that ANY persistent contrail is actually a chemtrail. That’s the primary misconception I’ve been addressing here.
There is avast amount of anecdotal evidence on the Thomas site. I could cherry pick the weakest evidence, and disprove it, but that would be rather pointless. Why don’t you list the three strongest pieces of evidence that you have, and I’ll have a go at them.
Well I have read your web site from begining to end and I think your veiws are very small in the micro world. You are an agent of the non-confromist ruleing white elite who thinks they can “think” thier way out of all the troubles they have and in most cases still commit to our mother earth. Your aguments are hollow and I would bet anything that your just a closet non-con in sheepskin.
Anyone who lives in my territory can see the effects of the CEMICAL SPRAYING that happens and the shit that is put out in the stratospere. I do agree on one very small point you make is that some who beleive in the chemtrail reality are being suckered by some of the more savy writers like you into beleiving thingsd that are just not true.
So sir I say you are a narrow minded whiteman who thinks they can “think” your sad very sad.
What are the effects that you are seeing in your territory?
I’ve been chuckling at you “response” since I read it, Unci… ” I could cherry pick the weakest….” That’s how the typical predator works, attack the weakest and ignore the rest as though they weren’t there. I notice you didn’t bother even touching on any of the questions I DIRECTLY ASKED YOU in my “long-winded” post, in typical low-end predatory style, ignore that which might actually require some effort on your part. Let’s see how you handle a few more direct questions…
“There is a vast amount of anecdotal evidence….”, you say. OF COURSE it’s anecdotal evidence, unless the story-teller has stowed away ON one of these unmarked tankers and recorded a spray mission firsthand, it’s bound to be “anecdotal evidence”! What of the lab analyses that some of these “victims” have offered? Printed up on stolen (or accurately forged) letterhead with random values that LOOK menacing, just to prop up the “anecdote”, or could there actually be some MERIT to what’s been reported? Granted, a reporter mistranslated the printed findings in a new piece. That brings me to another direct question, this one about the content of your site itself.
One of the tactics you’re using to discredit the whole dilemma is that each of four units of measurement are equal at some point.
Two of those units deal with weight/volume of a sample and its makeup (µg/L, as it was measured in the mistranslated video and mg/L). These two have a point where they’re equal, since enough micrograms will give you a milligram. The other two deal with much smaller amounts, and smaller sample sizes being measured from… PPM and PPB, which also have points where they’re equal since a certain number of millions will give you a billion. Exactly how many million, or billion “parts” for that matter, does it take to create an equal base amount to measure by, in the other units? Any idea?
Another point to ponder, drawing from your own website: If normal ‘trails are basically ice, CO, CO2, “oxides of nitrogen” and “small amounts of other things” where in that emissions database you link to are the test results for those “other things” being emitted by these engines and what exactly are they? I’ll answer this one for you… They’re not there at all!
If normal ‘trails are basically smoke and frozen water-vapor, why are people offereing “anecdotes” of the same or very similar substances falling from the sky after these unmarked planes exhibit the same or very similar flight patterns over different areas of the country, and why do all of the tested samples of it contain the same or very similar compounds of the same or very similar elements, which shouldn’t be found in “smoke and water” in the first place? Everyone’s all making up the same or very similar stories, I presume…
In doing some research on the elements and/or compound being reported, I find that exposure to most compounds of BARIUM can actually be toxic to some degree, the carbonate in particular, and most barium isotopes are HIGHLY RADIOACTIVE(with half-lives ranging from ms to YEARS)… if that won’t make a person sick, what will?
The lab reports show normal amounts of barium – exactly the same as are found in ground water. The collection methods are rather dubious (leaving a bowl on the hood of a pickup for a month?)
68 µg/L is 0.068 mg/L, because 1000 µg is 1 mg, it’s like the difference between meters and kilometers, or milimeters and meters. One is a thousand times as big as the other. So, it takes 1000.
See here:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/099.htm#tab72
The other things are unburnt hydrocarbons, soot (carbon), and oxides of sulphur.
It’s mostly water, not smoke.
Flight patterns are straight lines. The same flight patterns are used everywhere because they are straight lines.
Spider webs are found all round the country, as is dirt and pollen. These things get mistaken for fibers, dust, and (in rain) goo. Actual reports are actually quite varied.
Water will make you sick if you drink enough of it. The question is if there are dangerous amounts of the substance. Barium salts naturally occurr in the ground, and are found in small quantities in dirt and airborne dust. Isotpes of barium do not generally exist in nature, as they immediately oxidise. Nobody has reported high levels of radiation.
Impressive, you directly answered most of the questions presented… but still found it necessary to resort to “cherry-picking” and semantics analysis. Just because I used the word “smoke” before the word “water” in a phrase that you chose to copy here doesn’t infer that my belief is that there’s more “smoke” than “water” in a normal contrail.
Dubious collection methods, you say? Strange, since the easiest way to collect an easily measureable sample of water, and whatever else has been falling the sky, is to leave a collection vat of SOME kind out in Nature, be it on the hood of a pickup truck or as part of the top-of-the-line amateur weather station you spent a month’s pay on. The only thing “dubious” about the method used in the single repoprt you’ve chosen to nitpick at, is that his methods don’t meet your standards. In the article centered around said lab report, it is mentioned that even the analyst who interpreted the result mentioned it strange that barium showed up at all, but again that doesn’t mean anything since it doesn’t suppoprt your “thought” that there’s no evidence to support the case those of us who actually care enough to RAISE QUESTIONS are trying to bring to light.
Yes, by the way, you’re correct in pointing out that spiderwebs occur naturally country-wide. That might have something to do with the fact that SPIDERS occur naturally country-wide, no? When was the last time you saw NATURAL spidersilk fall from the sky, let alone in amounts large enough to even thinly veil full-sized cars? When was the last time you saw NATURAL spidersilk turn gooey in rain, it doesn’t… water tends to BEAD UP on the strands, at least as far as I’ve ever seen. People aren’t “mistaking” whatever is falling out of the sky as natural spiderweb strands, the phrase was used as a COMPARISON to describe the material they’re finding, to anyone who might actually care. This leads me back to the Deep Shield “anecdote”, in that the content of the answers given seem to MATCH the unrelated descriptions of what you’re trying to convince those reading our little battle of wits, is nothing more than Nature behAving strangely and dropping common spidersilk out of the sky. This doesn’t even take into account that the material you wnat everyone think is just natural spidersilk starts falling and being collected in odd synchronicity with a plane (or several) ‘trailing overhead.
Flight patterns are straight lines? REALLY? The issue there isn’t that the planes that people are talking about are performing aerial feats not possible for a jetliner sized aircraft, that’s a whole different debate entirely. The claim is that the planes being talked about are, for the most part (according to all the “anecdotal evidence” you seem to have so much disdain for) UNMARKED and flying abnormally frequently (as it judged by those in the area, who would have at least partial knowledge of how often things fly overhead) and/or IN GROUPS, which seems like it would raise a mental “red flag” even with the most hard-headed of skeptics. Of course, skepticism can usually only be “cured” (I can almost see the blood in the water, in regards to my use of that word) by the skeptic having an undeniable firsthand experience.
In the case of the chemtrail debate, this would mean finding a way onto the plane used for a spray mission, and interviewing those involved from takeoff to landing. Somehow I don’t see that happening anytime soon, since it seems nobody’s suppopsed to have a clue they’re happening. Think “Stealth project”, nobody had a clue that we were working on the U-2, or SR-71, or F-117 or the B-2… until Big Brother decided it was time to tell us! Same principle at work here, but people are talking because they want answers.
The collection methods were bad. However, the main problem with the report was the misstatement of units. The amount of Barium actually found in the lab report was well withing normal limits. There was nothing at all unusual about it. Was there?
I see silk in the air every single day. I don’t see it in huge quantities (except in the huge webs I walk into, usually in the fall), but I have heard about it on the internet, like:
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/news/2001/Oct/floaters.htm
There have actually been VERY FEW accounts of it be associated with overflying aircraft. Since aircraft fly overhead CONSTANTLY, then it’s inevitable that occasionally someone will look up, see a contrail, and then later see some silk floating in the air. That’s simply a false correlation.
Again, the method used to collect the barium-positive water sample doesn’t meet your standards, it’s not the way you’d do it, therefore it’s “bad”… Stow yourself away on a spray mission, interview the crew and take samples for yourself using whatever high-tech gadgetry you feel sufficient, because it seems that a firsthand experience will be the only thing you give any credit.
In researching mg/L to PPM conversion, I found that the typical use for PPM is in extremely LARGE volumes of water (100’s of thousands of gallons), mg/L usually fits better in terms of a smaller sample, which “the bowl on the hood of his truck” would be… however, in converting between the two, it would seem necessary to take into account the tested sample’s actual volume, which nobody knows precisely (save those directly involved in its testing). The problem is that in such a small sample size, why was there ANY barium present, if barium only occurs in natural compounds and then only in trace amounts (probably taken from samples much bigger than a bowl). Once again, in the report centered around the bowl-sized sample, the technician who analyzed the sample itself commented on the oddity of finding barium. Typical predatory tactics still, attack what you feel weakest, and ignore that which you can’t find a way to try and bring down.
“Floaters”…? How odd that you accredit all that strange material people are finding, to spiders and their silk in one breath (or post, as it were), and then in the very next, you stop mentioning spiders altogether (except in the content of the “floaters” article itself) as the source of whatever it is people are finding and instead try to offer up the wooly aphid as the culprit. Neither material entirely fits the description people have given of what it is they’re dealing with since those “floaters” you refer to above are described as “white, waxy filaments”… key word: WAXY … not stick-gooey as the “mystery material” is being routinely described, by people not connected in any way other than having the same firsthand experience. You’re grasping at straws now, it would seem. As far as “very few accounts” of unknown material falling from the sky, in synch with at least one unmarked plane being spotted overheard, the fact that it’s been reported as having happened at all obviously raises a few eyebrows… except yours.
Dilution is the same regardless of the sample size. It’s a ratio, a percentage.
PPM means parts per million. 1 PPM is 1 part out of a million.
mg/L means milligrams per liter. A liter of water weighs 1000g, or 1,000,000g, or 1 Million milligrams. So 1 mg/L is 1 part out of a million.
PPM and mg/L are exactly the same, no conversion is needed, see example usages here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mg%2Fl+%28ppm%29%22
Another curiousity, if “no conversion is needed”, why are there tools online that do exactly that, convert from one to the other? http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=81 hosts one in particular that contains not only a “concentration converter” but a number of others. http://water.me.vccs.edu/ppm1_2.htm isn’t an intereactive conversion tool per se, but contains a concept that seems fairly important: “Note that the strength or purity of the chemicals must be taken into consideration in calculations.”
Excellent little tools. Go to the one labeled “Concentration Converter”, and choose “Milligrams per liter to parts per million”, enter 1, and click calculate. The result is 1.
They are the same units.
The note on purity refers to calculations when adding a substance to water. If the substance is 50% purity, then you would need to add twice as much. It does not relate to testing.
The EPA limit for drinking water is 2000 ppb (2 ppm). Have there ever been “chemtrail” tests that showed a higher number?
I must be a glutton for punishment, since the discussion about conversion seems to be drawing out into unecessary lengths… I’ve seen for myself the equality of the measures, more than once, and I’ve watched your replies continually include the very same information at times… You seem to cling desperately to points that you know are correct in, almost as if being right about something makes you feel good about yourself. Notice I’m not arguing the equality of certain points in both scales? I GET IT! The point I was trying to make is the difference in the USES of the two, not the inequality of certain points between them.
There are no differences in use. They mean exactly the same thing.
Bottom line, the KSLA guy said it was 6.8 parts per million, when it was actually 68.8 parts per billion.
So, he was wrong, the water had very low levels of Barium in it, well below the level deemed safe by the EPA (2000 parts per billion)
http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/
That’s it, block out all possibility that what any part of what I’ve said here might make even a little sense, and fall back on on arguing an old point that’s ladready been talked to death…
I’m sorry, I just don’t understand why you keep going on about units, when it’s clear that the report was wrong. I take it that you admit that the KSLA report found nothing out of the ordinary in the water?
If you’d like to discuss something else though, feel free to elucidate.
Ahh, there IS a sense of humor in there somewhere… why I keep going on about units… I brough up a question about how to convert between them, which I got more than one answer to, three on my count, the last of which you laid on me AFTER I told you I got the math lesson. But I’m the one “going on” unecessarily? That’s funny…
As far as the KSLA report, I’m not admmiting to anything about it other than the report misquoted the unit of measurement. It still seems odd that there’s ANYTHING in the water in ANY amounts that even closely resembles that which has been reported in other areas. especially when essentially untainted rainwater is what was supposed to have been what was being tested.
It’s not odd. Barium is found in all groundwater, it’s in the dirt. It’s almost surprising they did not find more, especially given all the barium mines in that state.
They did not simply misquote the units. They said it was three times the EPA limit, when it was actually 1/20th the EPA limit. They basically said it was toxic, when it was not. Here is a direct quote:
It’s cut and dried. They claim there were toxic levels. There were not toxic levels.
Groundwater… Dirt… OK, but RAIN? Rain doesn’t come from the ground, does it? Last I heard, rain falls from clouds, which you’ve said yourself Remember those “dubious collection medthods”? A bowl on the HOOD OF HIS TRUCK? Real tough to collect GROUNDwater, when the container one is using to collect a sample isn’t IN the ground (so the water can filter through the ground into the bowl), or even ON the ground. The whole mixup in the KSLA report just snowballed itself… the unit was misinterpreted, but assumed to be correct. Since that misinterpretation was taken as fact, the level recorded WOULD have be as high as they said it was. The technician who did the analysis commented on the oddity that there was barium in the sample… Why? Because it’s RAINwater, not groundwater.
Remember that Las Vegas Tribune report you gave so much time to? It has two parts, and in the first of them is a section that seems appropriate to draw your attention to:
“Before you believe Gibson’s and the government’s “denial,” do an Internet search for the following terms: “Joint Vision for 2020″ and “Weather is a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025″, a whitepaper by MIT’s Bernard Eastlund and H-bomb father Edward Teller. Before he died in 2003, Teller was director emeritus of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, where plans for nuclear, biological and directed energy weapons are crafted. In 1997, Teller publicly outlined his proposal to use aircraft to scatter through the stratosphere millions of tons of electrically-conductive metallic materials, ostensibly to reduce global warming.
Two scientists working at Wright Patterson Air Force Base confirmed to the Ohio newspaper, Columbus Alive, that they were involved in aerial spraying experiments. One involved aluminum oxide spraying related to global warming and the other involved barium stearate and had to do with high-tech military communications.” Another excerpt from the LV Tribune: “Government officials deny that anything unusual is taking place, yet increasing numbers of concerned observers are seeing 727-like aircraft painted “all-white with a black stripe up the middle of fuselage” laying long and often cries-crossing chemtrail patterns over Southern Nevada and elsewhere. None of the planes carry identifying markings.
This brings me to another eyewitness account included in the first half of the LV Tribune article: “One source, who spoke to the Tribune under condition of anonymity, working as a civilian archeologist on government land throughout Nevada, began to notice “all white unmarked aircraft” preparing for take-off at Nellis AFB and at the Mancamp Complex near Tonapah in the late-90s. “It was these unmarked planes that were constantly laying down the criss-crossing X patterns of lingering chemical-spray trails over Southern Nevada.” When the archeologist asked the military escort who accompanied the civilian research team into ’sensitive’ areas around Nellis, about the planes, the reply received was, “You didn’t see anything.”
Yet another eyewitness “anecdote”, this one with a name attached to it! “Another Las Vegas resident, Sandy Range, grew up within an outdoors field and stream-type family and has been watching the weather and the skies all her life. Holding a degree from Syracuse University, Range moved to Las Vegas in 1989. “I first began to notice the chemtrails in late ‘96 – 14 criss-crossed miles-long vapor trails that didn’t evaporate like the norm. I began to see them weekly, then daily,” Range states matter-of-factly. One early morning in ‘99 Range was returing from Henderson when a low-flying craft dropped a trail right overhead along Boulder Highway. “It covered my car with a sticky web-like coating and I saved a specimen in a jar. Microscopic fiber-like filaments,” Range reports. Government denials, as usual.”
Shall I continue with another LV Tribune clip?
“Where is the mainstream media’s reporting of this mass phenomenon? Indications of a concerted cover-up came in February 2003, when a retired Southern Baptist preacher named Everett Burton finally succeeded in reaching C-span. After voicing his opinion on the Clinton impeachment trial, this former minister told Americans to get a copy of the Constitution and read it to realize what they have lost. Rev. Burton then advised viewers not to take his word for what was happening in the US, “just look up in the skies as the planes regularly spray contrails across the skies, spraying people and making them ill.” At that point, Rev. Burton was cut off. The screen flipped from C-span to the Tennessee state seal, remained silent for several minutes.” Notice that he specifically used the word CONtrail, but still got censored.
The denials referred to in those clips are typical Big Brother stonewalls: “There’s nothing strange going on because we say there’s nothing strange going on, even though lots of you have seen something strange going on.”
So what’s going on?
To finish a sentence early in that last post: “Which you’ve said yourself have been the subject of modification for a number of years.”
Remember the weather modification debate you had on a different page?
My response from earlier:
and
You see – it’s not pure rainwater, it’s the residue from one month of rainfall, dust, and evaporation. It’s highly concentrated rainwater.
Funny, in one sentence it’s not rainwater, and the next says it’s highly concentrated rainwater… Can we make up our mind, please? How ODD that you refused to even touch on the eyewitness accounts, or the whole concept of how vehemently Big Brother wants everybody who’s actually seen things, that they haven’t… Been a pleasure butting heads with Big Cousin, but I’m through goin’ rounds with a well-educated ironwood stump.
Eyewitness accounts of the kind you reference are not very useful They are third hand, from dubious sources, with corroborating evidence, no photos, no documentation, and nobody else saw the same thing at the same time.
People can, and do, misinterpret things, imagine things, and make things up. If you think they are accurate, then fine, go ahead and believe them. But your standard of evidence is very low – these reports are just as consistent as alien abductions, or gang stalking. Consistent does not make it real. Find some actual, physical evidence. Documents, photos, videos.
“Rainwater” here implies rain collected froma single shower in a clean container. Not the residue left in a bowl after a month.
Try this:
1) Take an empty bowl. Leave it in a warm location, in sunlight. Put a 1/4 cup of pure water in it. Ever three days top it up. Do this for over a month.
2) After the time is up, pour the content of the bowl into a glass. Fill another glass with pure water. Then compare them.
First and foremost, I absolutely LOVE how you tell people that their eyes and brains are wrong. I would never consider myself an ignorant and unedjucated person. I have a VERY good memory to boot. I grew up in the country and its obvious that I spent just about everyday outside. Kids love to look in the sky and see the airplanes flying overhead, right?
I have also attended just about every airshow around this area growing up. (my stepdad loves jets and planes) Never in my entire life have I EVER seen what I saw overhead 2 days ago while driving home from work. I had heard about chemtrails and thought, “well, maybe this idea is just a little crazy for me.” Driving home I saw a total of 12 airplanes in a matter of 15-20 minutes, which I also find odd as I have NEVER seen that many airplanes in this area at once, flying directly at each other and crossing paths in matter of seconds. (also odd, no?) It looked like skywritting, NOT contrails, going back and forth making a grid over the entire sky. If anyone told me that commecial flights cross paths like these planes were, I’d probably laugh. As these trails started to settle in the sky, it almost looked like something was dripping from the trails, also something I have never seen in my life comming from a contrail. Intrigued, I grabbed my camcorder and filmed these planes making checkerboard designs in the sky that were “raining and dripping” some kind of subtance. My husband, who is a huge skeptic of just about anything, was also really freaked out by the sight of the strange sky, as was a friend who was visiting. I actually got a good close-up shot of one of these white planes (did NOT look a passenger plane) spraying trails of something thick and white out it. And like I said, I KNOW what contrails look like.
Is the goverment really going to try and tell ALOT of people that their eyes are “tricking” them? Are they, and you for that matter, going to deny that anything is going on up there? How would you explain Morgellons? How would you explain the FDA and the US Government completely ignoring and denying that Morgellons even exists? Would you call ALOT of sick people liars too? How do explain the explosion in respritory problems? Asthma is up roughly 400-600% in the past decade. Why are babies and elderly people having so many problems from “unknown” respritory ailments. (by the way, I DO work in the medical field and am currently persuing a masters in geology) Why are the barium levels in rain water at 3 times the lethal limit? I suppose your going to say that rain doesn’t come from the sky. Why do “chemical rainbows” appear in the sky after the daily doses of the plane trails? How can you or the government deny these allegations while my child plays in the yard and the planes are flying over spraying something down on my family?
The people of this country and the world need to spread the message now…WE ARE UNDER ATTACK THROUGH THE AIR WE ARE BREATHING! Its time to put this crap to an END. The people are starting to understand what our “leaders” are REALLY doing to us. It’s going to huge when our wagons start comming over capitol hill. Who cares what these government agencies tell us…use your own brains and see for yourself…Every person is smart enough and strong enough to fight this, without outsiders telling us whats right and wrong. Humans can make these simple observations, just look up at the sky and draw a conclusion. Dont ever let anyone tell us “regular joes” that we aren’t smart enough to do so!
So where’s the video?
And you say:
They are not. This has been discussed several times. No test result has ever shown unusually elevated levels of Barium. Post the lab report if you think there has been such high levels. 2mg/L is the EPA limit, not a “lethal” limit, but just the limit they would prefer water to be below, even though there’s no evidence that that level does any harm. 2mg/L is actually a safe level. But anyway, post the lab results.
The CDC is currently investigating Morgellons. How is that “ignoring” it? And how is it linked to contrails?
Uncinus, very interesting site. I admire your persistence, but I think you’re tilting at windmills — no amount of fact or patient explanation will sway conspiracy theorists from their conspiracies of choice. The most fundamental and frequent mistake I see with CT’s is their propensity to confuse correlation with causation. ANYTHING can be correlated with anything else, but that’s a long way from establishing that one correlated element caused the other. As you probably know, most violent criminals eat bread. This correlation doesn’t establish bread as causative of violent behavior.
In the interest of full disclosure, I should state up front that I’m a public health official, which, I suppose, would put me solidly in the “cover up camp” according to most CT’s. I can’t imagine a career with a greater opportunity to destroy the health of the public I’m pledged to protect, can you? Except that I’m a member of that public, so it seems a sort of self-defeating exercise. Or, perhaps the CT’s think we’ve secretly equipped our homes, vehicles, and offices with filters to protect us from the dire effects of all of the “substances” with which we’re covering the country.
I found your site while searching for something completely unrelated to contrails, but related to weather. I’m interested in weather, having flown the occasional aircraft, but mostly because a fairly significant part of my job involves review of medical flights and the choice to fly or not to fly is so often weather-dependent.
Great stuff here. I’ll look in occasionally. Great work. I admire your patience.
Hi Irish,
The chemtrail debunking on here is not aimed at true-believers, although their arguments do provide the framework for discussion.
Rather, I hope to give useful information to those who have just heard about the theory, or have perhaps only recently started to be believe some the claims being made.
The chemtrail meme is not particularly harmful, but it’s interesting, which is why I like to discuss it.
Free Speaker 2, can I just throw my two cents in?
You ask, “Is the goverment really going to try and tell ALOT of people that their eyes are “tricking” them?”
First, I don’t know that “the government” is telling anyone anything. But, *I*, as a private citizen with flight experience, can tell you it is extraordinarily difficult to accurately estimate the altitude of aircraft from the ground. From the ground, one has no point of reference, so trying to estimate the three-dimensional distribution of the aircraft from a two-deminsional perspective does (more commonly than not) cause one’s eyes to “trick” them. Even experienced pilots have difficulty accurately estimating aircraft altitudes from the ground. The aircraft you saw were separated by thousands of feet. So, in that sense, your eyes were tricking you if you perceived they were “flying directly at each other”. If they were’t separated by generous distances, there would either have been multiple midair collisions, or the pilots would have had to take evasive action — which you say they did not do. The pattern you observed sounds very much like normal flight activity.
You ask, “How would you explain Morgellons? How would you explain the FDA and the US Government completely ignoring and denying that Morgellons even exists?”
I don’t explain it because there aren’t yet adequate data to explain it. Neither the FDA nor “the US the government” is ignoring increased reports of dermatological problems. The CDC has funded a study to investigate the possible etiology of those problems and identify the causative agent. When there are adequate data, then it can be explained. Until then, the “chemtrail” explanation is no more valid than the “alien spores” explanation.
You ask, “Asthma is up roughly 400-600% in the past decade. Why are babies and elderly people having so many problems from “unknown” respritory ailments.”
Actually, according the CDC surveillance statistics, the overall prevalence of asthma has remained stable or decreased in the past decade. As to “so many problems from unknown respritory [sic] ailments”, could you cite the source for your data? I’m not able to locate any data supporting that assertion.
You ask, “Why do “chemical rainbows” appear in the sky after the daily doses of the plane trails?”
What is a “chemical rainbow”, and how is that differentiated from a “regular rainbow”?
You ask, “How can you or the government deny these allegations while my child plays in the yard and the planes are flying over spraying something down on my family?”
Because I’ve yet to see any credible data to support these allegations.
Since the military has been spraying, we very seldom have normal appearing clouds anymore.
The US Military has conducted “Open Air” biowarfare testing involving dangerous pathogens and carcinogens that resulted in illness and fatalities over hundreds of American cities without the informed consent of residents since 1949. The 1977 Senate Hearing and 1994 Hearing proved that the military has sprayed the population in the past (for sure) and is no doubt doing it today.
Actually the clouds are just the same. We do occasionally have spreading contrails that lead to overcast skies – but that’s been going on since the 60s, and is simply and unfortunate consequence of more jet travel.
Your claims of military spraying affecting the clouds are ridiculous, and have ZERO evidence. Your statement regarding the military is baseless, there have been no illnesses conclusively linked to the testing, and it stopped in the 50s. It also had nothing to do with high altitude clouds.
Stop debunking these conspiracies!
I need to have some external force to blame for things in my life that are not the way I’d like them to be, and to maintain the illusion that SOMEone is in the driver’s seat of civilization, even if they are drunk or insane. My health, level of personal success, or any other arbitrary measure of my life that could be better or is suffering the ravages of aging or lifestyle choices is easier to take when I can say “They” did it to me. I cannot accept that “excrement occurs” no matter what I intended or that I might have brought things I don’t like on to myself.
There are indeed secret societies who seek to rule the world (and some that are not so secret), but our best protection is that there’s more than one. That is, the friction created by the conflicts between groups competing for world domination is a self-regulating phenomenon that prevents any one group from succeeding (so far) and probably explains most of human history. It would be in the interests of a wannabe-megalomaniac group to document and expose the reality of chemtrails being sprayed by a competing megalomaniac group (in a scientifically indisputable way, meaning with evidence), but this has not happened. Instead we get sporadic and easily disputed pictures, videos, and anecdotes. Contrast the sporadic talk of chemtrails with the widespread and relentless exposure of the sex-abuse scandal in the catholic church to see what I mean.
We all make plans for our lives. Sometimes big plans, sometimes little ones. Anyone who has made and attempted to carry out a plan knows that things rarely go as planned, no matter how big or small the plan was. So, how would it be different for a megalomaniac group? I would expect the incidence of Murphy’s Law (or “excrement occuring”) to increase proportionally to the number of people involved and the complexity of the plan. World domination/ secret governments/ etc. are incredibly complex goals that require the collaboration of many individuals, so we can reasonably expect the incidence of mistakes and failure to be rather high. International banking could be said to be an example of a megalomaniac mindset, but remember it took a very long time to develop it into what it is today, and it is not a secret; it works as an instrument of control because most people are not financially astute or educated enough to accurately assess what’s right in front of them.
We sign adjustable-rate mortgages because we are ignorant of finance. We see chemtrails because we are ignorant of science. We think some shadowy group of “the elite” rules the world because they happen to own a lot of the crap we’re taught to desire, but we are ignorant of the fact that once we cease to desire those things, they no longer rule our world, at least.
Seems to me the greatest threat to us as individuals (and as a species) is ignorance… Or maybe the rationalization of that ignorance, it’s hard to say…
Quoting # 91: “Humans can make these simple observations, just look up at the sky and draw a conclusion. Dont ever let anyone tell us “regular joes” that we aren’t smart enough to do so!”
I just tried that, and the conclusion I came to from using my own eyes and brain was that the Sun orbits around the Earth, which is flat by the way (go outside and look for yourself!).
Uncinus, thanks for debunking some myths with facts, sources and links to verifiable data. A lot of the ‘chemtrail’ proponents are setting a horrendous double standard for themselves and making themselves look like complete idiots.
“Oh no, we can’t believe what all this scientifically collected, peer approved data says, but believe us (the people with no evidence at all, just anecdotes, 20 year old memories and history tab full of moon hoax, 9/11 and Icke websites). Yes we definitely know what’s going on because we can see clouds left by planes with our eyes.”
Personally, I don’t know why you give these people the time of day, as their anarchist ideas have as much scientific basis as creationism and timecube.
It’s admirable that you’re trying to educate the masses and I’d like to believe that some people sitting on the fence of chemtrails stumbled on this site and got off the bandwagon to crazy before it set off.
Thanks Primal, I do this mostly for my own interest, but I like to think some people may have found it useful. There are a lot of young and impressionable people using the internet, and being sucked into a fearful, unscientific state of mind is not doing them any good.
The true-belivers themselves are only rarely going to change, despite what the evidence is. However, the arguments they put forth serve as the context for the subject – so by explaining things to them, you are actually explaining things to the casual reader.
Plus, I like clouds!
Ramsey….
It’s rather obvious that the “orb” in question is stationary and the camera is moving…
Also, From when I was a youngster I’ve noticed the contrails. One of my mom’s friends was afraid of them and said that they could contain chemicals and such that would be bad for us or the government was doing something malicious on purpose. Even from that age I thought it was a lot of rubbish. If you’re malicious enough to test chemicals on people, why would you do it to your own? You (being the evil tyrannical emperor) may end up inciting riots or maybe even a rebellion (Not that it would matter with the ridiculous weapons at your disposal).
No, no, no… You test that out on OTHER countries.
Duh.
If anyone ever found out, you could just tell them it was for national security.
@Uncinus
You very astutely pointed out the premise of the entire debate in post 20 when you said “The government is evil.”
Most people believe the government is good, but just inept and wrong a lot. Most people somehow simultaneously believe that the government is also corrupt. Good and corrupt can not both be right.
Bad decisions continually come out of Washington, from all branches. The question is, are they caused by ineptitude or corruption? I say corruption.
The agenda of the corrupt is flexible to those who have what they desire, be it money or power or both.
Only certain types of people will take advantage of a corrupt government. I’ll suggest that using a corrupt government to further your own agenda is bad, and any who do this have either potentially or surely harmful goals. Some of these will be after money, some power and some are just evil. Remember, evil people do exist.
The governed then experience an either non-beneficial or evil agenda. A non-beneficial agenda is bad because it occupies our leaders. It distracts the electorate from the truly important issues of our time.
Our society degrades until all personal freedom, health and wealth have been eliminated or consolidated through legislation. The corrupt government has been a tool wielded by evil men to accomplish personal goals.
On the current and historic status of chemtrails I am unsure, but what I can tell you that if anyone approached our government with enough money or information and an agenda of chemtrails, those planes would be in the sky shortly thereafter.
Just to be clear, I don’t think “the government is evil”, I was listing that a general belief underlying chemtrail theory. Your version is that the government is corrupt and easily manipulated by “anyone”.
The point remains though, there is ZERO evidence that anything is going on. Leaping from an assumption about the evil/corrupt nature of government to something being up with all those contrail, is just entirely specious.
Talk about contrails please. Actual evidence.
Question everything that doesn’t seem right, we are at present attempting to get to the bottom of why fluoride is being added to our water supply when a balanced diet will do the same and has been proved..NEW WORLD ORDER?
This type of “contrail” i.e a chemtrail never existed in the 70s and 80s – I used to live in one of the worlds busiest airspaces. Chemtrails never occured back then – I was a plane freak as a kid and you just did not see what you do today. Besides the German government has admittted to spraying chemtrails. Google it!
Your personal recollections are one thing, the evidence of photographs and science is quite another. Perhaps you noticed contrails more after you moved. Airspace is nothing to do with it. I live next to the LAX class B airspace, you don’t see contrails in class B airspace because it’s too low. You see them when you live under flight paths between distant airports – often on another continent.
There is lots of evidence that such contrails quite common back in the 70’s. See, for example:
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
And the German government did not admit spraying chemtrails, they admitted spraying chaff, which is perfectly normal.
http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
Uncinus, I think you are doing a brilliant job here and I speak as a person who has been a chemtrail-believer for several years. I recently found out the truth in the course of a long and heated argument with JazzRoc who asked me if I realised that the halos around the sun and moon were formed by ice crystals. I had long known and accepted that this was the cause of the phenomenon around the moon but due to my belief in chemtrails I had blinded myself to seeing this was the case for the sun too. And what’s more, I could then see that all the white artificial cloud cover that was formed by the trails and the trails themselves were nothing more than harmless ice crystals that some people had been saying they were all along but I had chosen not to believe. Well, I can admit my mistake and have JazzRoc to thank for that!
Keep spreading the word!
Whoever runs this website is a complete propaganda agent. Are you getting paid to lie like this? Ok, for starters, I live in a flight path. None of the planes leaving the airport heading west leave trails at any level. Only big white C-130’s from the military flying north/south ACROSS the flight path of my house leave chemtrails. Also, the Airforce has stated that contrails cannot be formed under 33,000 feet. Well, our military laid trials are below 10,000 feet. And finally, and this cannot be disproved either is the fact that I constantly see the military jets turning the sprayers on, then off.
Debunk that
I hate liars, and traitors
p.s. for all of the non-believers, just go to weathermod.com. Ben Livingston, the “father of weather weapons,” a retired Navy physicist works for them now. He has stated on record that we have been manipulating the weather since the Vietnam War to hurt our enemies. You can hire this company to manipulate the weather now. If you own a ski resort, they will spray chemtrails, and you will get more snow! If you own an insurance company, you can hire them to spray chemtrails, and reduce the size of hail, so as to not pay out such high claims to your customers.
Also check out the government document titled Owning the Weather by 2025 if you don’t believe our government is spraying chemtrails and manipulatng the weather.
Whoever this uncinus person is….wow! Ice crystals that form from high-flying jets are only able to form under certain conditions: 1) 33,000 feet and above 2) They can only be-at maximum-1/2 mile long-not 50 miles like the chemtrails are. 3) They have to melt from back to front. Chemtrails often disappear in the middle, leaving the end, and front in tact. 4) Ice-crystals from contrails can only last, and spread when there are two factors in place: That is COLD TEMPERATURES, AND HIGH HUMIDITY. It is VERY RARE to have cold temperatures, and high humidity. Uncinus you are so wrong, I feel like you can’t even have an intelligent conversation about this topic. You may want to google: German Government Admits Extensive Chemtrail Operations. In that nation wide news-release the Germans also stated that CHEMTRAIL ACTIVITY HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES FOR AN EVEN LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.
Uncinus-your excuse is all about the lie that these lines are caused by jet exhaust forming ice-crystals at high altitudes. Your THEORY is wrong on so many levels. Why aren’t any of these lasting CONTRAILS coming out of commercial aircraft, just military ones?
p.s. The head of the FAA told me that NONE of their planes leave chemtrails, only military ones.
Take care
Where are you getting this 33,000 feet number? Contrails just need air that is very cold (around -40), and to persist, the air needs to be humid. Altitude itself is only a factor when it affects those other factors.
Contrals can form at ZERO feet, in places like Alaska.
In the US, a more general figure would be 26,000 feet.
And contrails obviously do come out of commercial aircraft. I think you have this misconception because you can clearly identify the commercial planes leaving your airport. But those planes would obviously not leave contrails, as they are too low. But the commercial planes passing overhead at 30,000 feet, you can’t identify them, so you assume they are military.
Perhaps you could provide some source for your assertions, like the maximum 1/2 mile long. The first contrails in 1921 were longer than that.
Marcus, can you show where Ben Livingston describes anything that even slightly resembles contrails or chemtrails?
Hello Uncinus, I noticed you didn’t respond to many of my statements. They’re very difficult to just brush aside. The head of the FAA really did say that “none of our planes leave lasting low-altitude trails, only military ones.” He also stated that I would need to talk to the military to find out what they are doing. The head of Project Globe (NASA’S Contrail Education section of their website) also stated that they are trying to explain to children why there are persistent trails in the sky. He also stated that there is a government ran program involved in manipulating the weather. The program is entitled The Indirect/Semi-indirect Aerosol Campaign. This is ran by the Department of Energy’s ARM section. I really wish you would read Owning the Weather by 2025, which outlines how important it is to control the weather of our enemies during war. You can also google Iraq Chemtrails, and see satellite images of chemtrails formed in half circles. Chemtrails have microscopic polymers in them, which when sprayed in the sky can show the military if biological weapons are in the air. Furthermore, when they spray the barium and aluminum particles in the sky, they become ionized by the sun; this allows the military to use theses clouds as a base for ground to air communications. Pretty heavy stuff, you probably haven’t heard of before. As far as Ben Livingston goes, google: Former Naval Physicist Says Military Can Control Hurricanes. Of course I am well aware of the long-standing cloud-seeding effort that has been going on for decades-using silver iodide to help it rain. However, you CANNNOT use this product to shrink the size of hail as weather modification inc., claims to be able to do-they use another form of chemtrails.
Talk to you soon
Hey Uncinus, I think I wasn’t clear enough about living by the airport. You are right, when planes take-off, and fly over my house they are obviously too low to leave contrails. They are flying do west over my house, which is next to the Pacific Ocean. The important part of what I was trying to say is that all white large jets are flying north-south over the beach and they are leaving chemtrails that the commercial planes taking off eventually fly ABOVE! They fly above the chemtrails, and even when the commercial planes get above the chemtrails, they are STILL not leaving any chemtrails themselves. Can you respond to how this could be possible. Also, I noticed that you said, planes leaving trails, and doing u-turns are waiting to land. Can you explain why I occasionally have large, white jets making COMPLETE circles over the ocean just west of my house? Are they really commercial, and just stalling to wait to land? One last thing, you never responded to; is how can you explain the turning on, and off of the sprayers? A plane is flying, turns the chemtrail sprayers on, flies for a while, and turns them off. Next, the plane goes to a HIGHER altitude, and there is no trail coming out! Wow.
thank you
Marcus and Gregger clearly have their minds made up and simply dismiss any attempt at fact based analysis as shill fodder…
Thats sad.
Clearly, the atmosphere is a dynamic, changing place and the areas of ice supersaturation would not be uniform across a given a given plane (flat surface)…moreover planes (craft) due make changes in altitude which would result in flying through different patches of ice supersaturation- hence the broken trails…
Clearly Marcus is ignorant of a great many details if he expects to see trails from planes departing and arriving at his local airports…
Sorry to burst you bubble…but given the FACTs- the long known, well studied facts of contrail behavior involving persisting for hours and days and morphing into cirrus sheets…the ability of determining that what you see in the sky is a “chemtrail” or not is virtually nil…as in impossible…
Thus, even if “chemtrails” existed you could not tell you are seeing one just by looking at it. Without sampling the plume directly you are merely guessing…and poorly at that.
Even military planes can leave supersaturated persistent contrails. Just saying
(…and yes, I am a government shill…thanks for you tax dollars
Gregger wrote:
“You may want to google: German Government Admits Extensive Chemtrail Operations”
Gregg- you may want to look at what the Germans really said in that report. Since, Uncinus has clearly dismantled that supposed “admission” here:
http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/
I suppose you will say he is lying. Don’t take his word for it- get it translated yourself.
Also- please explain why a contrail can only be a 1/2 mile long at most…ever? That just doesn’t even come close to being logical…much less reality…
If you truly believe that any contrail that lasts for more than a few minutes is a “chemtrail” then you really are ignorant….why are there studies by peer-reviewed scientists detailing persisting contrails dating back 40-50 years??
How do you explain that away????
What is this guy in 1970 referring to??:
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/098/mwr-098-10-0745.pdf.
“Aircraft contrails first attracted public attention during
World War11; but as air traffic has built up to
its present level, they have come to be accepted as part of the environ-
ment. Even during World War11,it has difficult to watch
the cloud cover laid down by a large bomber formation
without wondering what it might be doing to the weather;
at present, there is widespread belief among the general
public and some feeling among scientists (Fletcher 1969,
Reinking 1968, Livingston 1969, and Schaefer 1969) that
contrails are increasing cloudiness, if
nothing more, in some regions. ***The writer himself has seen instances in
which a single contrail seemed to grow until it became an
overcast covering the whole sky. “***
I just do not understand the persistent (pardon the pun) denial of persistent contrails by “chemtrail” believers…It defies logic.
Dear SR1419, How about you try to debunk what I actually say? How about debunking the government papers, and government programs that I listed. How about you discuss why there would be complete circle chemtrails sprayed over the ocean in front of my house. Yes, that’s right, just a complete circle, and when the circle is completed, they turn the sprayers off. Now, we are also getting near vertical chemtrails sprayed. Vertical means from the ground towards the sky; like a rocket. Debunk that. Read ALL of my details, and try to refute them. You disregarded 10-20 facts that I’ve stated. As for what you have said, it means nothing. You’ve debunked nothing. This site is ridiculous; it’s like listening to the lamestream media trying to debunk the 911 truth movement. (I’m sure you do that too!) Actually, they have lost the fact war, so now they just call everyone crazy. You seem not to be able to read everything, or digest it. Deal with the facts. All you said was planes fly through chemtrails, and break the middle up. You funny guy. I would be embarrassed if I was as clueless as you. No need even speaking anymore, unless you can take all of what people say, and refute it. You can’t. You know it. Just give up, and go hang out with the brain-deads who will listen to your nothingness. By the way government has ALWAYS been the biggest liars, cheaters, and propaganda agents throughout history. And you say you are one of them.
Wow… I’m being qestioned by a braindead? Are you kidding me, sr%$@&? given all the information that has been put in front of me thanks to the freedom of information act, i am well aware of millitary honks like you. My old man is one as well. Coming to defense of Marcus, and myself i guess, did you even read any of the facts he presented? How bout the story out of russia where the militry planes dumped a full sack of cement out the hatch to aid in the “Nice DAy” they were making for Russia Day! She refused the money the government wanted to give her and shes suing them! thier government admitted it “SIR”! …. oh and how about the little “clingon jet” i saw with my own 2 eyes on the backside of a jet leaving my local airport? Not to mention i witnessed this sme plane fly back and forth in our sky that day, just laying big fat strapps of chemtrails that by the end of the day covered the entire visible sky. I have been a sky watcher since i was just a wee lad. From my bedroom window i would look out to the distant hills and admire all the blue sky! now when i am back at the house and looking out that window all i see 80% of the time is a sky filled with jet crap and the blue sky rare! Next you’ll probably tell me it’s gotten worse lately because of global warming! You should probably go back down to your bunker, put your little luminatty sweater on and try again S! i don’t buy your schtick. You have nothing on what’s real. I can’t be brainwashed like the rest of em. I came to this website so i could read what your type is saying about all this neat stuff happening right in front of us, and guess what? Just as i expected. HAHA!Wow!
Hi Marcus, I think the head of the FAA would have been talking about chaff, if your quote is accurate. Military contrails are basically the same as commercial contrails. Chaff, however, is not a contrail.
Which FAA head was this, and when did you talk to him?
Marcus, you raise some interesting points regarding the government’s involvement with weather modification, I think I’ll write a post about it in a few days that should answer your questions.
I find you descriptions of low altitude contrails interesting, perhaps you could provide some photographs or video to back up your claims?
Jet’s making circles and racetrack shapes are simply jets in holding patterns. You see them over Iraq because there were lots of jets performing missions that were not point-to-point, and so involved holding.
Well, you can call them “chemtrails” if you like, but that’s just clouding the issue. What weathermod.com offers is normal cloud seeding, which does not resemble ANY of the “chemtrail” videos out there. If you want to call that “chemtrails”, then why not add in crop dusting while you are at it.
The thing is, NOBODY denies that clouds seeding happens, there’s nothing at all unusual about it. But it’s low level spraying in a small area, it does not leave a persistent trail, and it does not look like a contrail. It’s also no secret that cloud seeding was used for military purposes in Vietnam:
http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/nawcwd/business/tech_transfer_highlights.htm
So what exactly is weathermod.com supposed to reveal to a “non-believer”?
Dearest Marcus-
first of all a persistent contrail is not a “chemtrail”. Persistent contrails…that last for hours and even days…and spread into cirrus sheets (hazy skies)…have been well known and studied for decades…Do you acknowledge the existence of Supersaturated Persistent Contrails???
Then…the circles you see could be A; an airline in the holding pattern that then leaves the altitude where the conditions are right for persistent contrails….Or a training flight – military or commercial that also leaves the pocket of ice supersaturation. You claim with certainty that they “turn off the sprayer” when in fact that is pure speculation…and given the reality, the proven, well studied reality of persistent contrails and the regularity of ice supersaturation – particularly in your area…that is a more likely and logical scenario.
The fact IS – without sampling the plume directly- you can only GUESS at what you see. My guess is that it is a persistent contrail.
Do you know all the variables that go into any single contrail??? The altitude of the plane, the speed, the weight, the type of engine, the type of fuel mix the and more- and that is just for the plane not even mentioning all the variables in the atmosphere…2 planes can fly through the same spot- one may leave a contrail and one may not…Ignorance of all the science behind contrail formation just doesn’t help “chemtrail” believers case at all.
That the military would like to control the weather is not PROOF that persistent chemtrails are really barium laced “chemtrails”- I HAVE read “Owning the weather” – and it says NOTHING of high altitude barium spraying in the guise of contrails.
CLoud seeding is nothing new…and in no way relates to spraying powdered aluminum in the upper atmosphere…Russians dropping cement bags out of an airplane by mistake is not proof that every persistent contrail one sees in the sky is really being laid by a “unmarked C-130″ spraying barium…The manipulation of Hurricanes is a long standing desire of a lot of scientists…trying to decrease intensity by dropping different chemicals and materials into them….Doesn’t mean every persistent contrails you see in the sky is really a “chemtrail”. Where is the logic?
Vertical contrails???…”like a rocket”…maybe it WAS a rocket? Rockets leave very long, persistent contrails. Maybe it was Airforce training…every see the Blue Angels?? Do they ever fly vertically?? Did you sample the plume?? How can you say definitively that it was a supposed “chemtrail” ???
You are not reading for comprehension. You wrote, “All you said was planes fly through chemtrails, and break the middle up” …I said nothing like that. I said planes fly through pockets of ice supersaturation…which results in persistent contrails with gaps in them…The atmosphere is a dynamic and changing place and the conditions at any given altitude can be different from location to location. You think they are turning the “sprayer” on and off…whatever.
So, typically…in the face of facts and logic, you come back with ad hominem attacks that really do not further your argument in the least.
Good luck with that.
Gregg:
Can’t help you with the “klingon” plane you saw. Please send a photo.
Are you aware that some contrails persist and last for hours and days?? ….and that just because the do does not mean they are “chemtrails” ??
How can you distinguish between the 2??
So, I guess I am “braindead” since I prefer peer reviewed science to wild speculation. Oh well…guess its my cross to bear.
BTW- the goverment shill comment was a joke. Just remember- do not believe everything you read on the internet!!
Regarding the “klingon” plane, if you live near a military base, then it might be an “air launched” jet, something like the x-14, which was launched from a b-52, see:
http://images.google.com/images?q=x-15+b-52
so basicly what this website is telling me is that everything i see in the sky is normal. tick tack toe grid patterns are normal and when the sky is covered from horizon to horizon with “Jet crap” i should just go outside and do some strenuous activities, breath deep and don’t worry? I’m sorry Shill. i don’t buy it. Where are the bees? why is there more statick electricity in the air (more now than i have ever noticed)? I know what HAARP is. i know what a cloud is. and i know what a shill is! …….over a thousand tornadoes this year in the midwest. A “freek” electrical storm in June in california.! Can’t wait for that sack of cement to come flying through my roof on the fourth of july when they’re trying to make a “Nice day” for us to view the fireworks. Oh hey and make sure you catch the olympics in china this year. Should be nice out. They’ve forcasted no rain for the duration of the games. Sweet! Hard hat and suntan lotion.! ……..as for the “suckerfish” on the tail of that plane? well i hate to say it but my little HP foto devise is a piece of poo. i’m in the market for a faster camera with a fat zoom so I can get those fotos my debunker friends need to see. ……time to go out and play. I see a little square of blue sky left out there. better go get in it before it becomes a concloud. breath deep SR#$%^.
That depends on what you mean by “normal”. Clearly contrails are man-made, and not natural clouds. The weather also varies a lot, so on some days we can have very unusual weather. Some years the weather is different from other years, some years we have more tornadoes than other years. Some years we do have electrical storms in the summer (quite a lot of years actually, it’s not uncommon).
Cloud seeding weather modification is not a secret. Everyone knows they are planning to do it at the Olympics – mostly to improve air quality.
Tic-tac-toe grid patterns ARE normal, all you need for them is to be near a place where two busy flight corridors cross. The wind will then blow the trails into a grid pattern.
Interesting site. I really like how people find faults with your hobby, thats why its called a hobby, some people like to do things in their spare time. Also funny how they want you to post your life story for everyone on the internet. How about your social security number too?
Lots of good info. Do i believe it 100%, no. I’m not a pilot, a meteoroligist, or a mechanical engineer who designs jet engines so any information/ science could be incorrect and i would never know. But you have put forth alot of good/ seemingly correct information. Until i get even more information from the other side, i am going to say i do not believe that chemtrails exist based on the information i have seen.
Curious about spraying different substances in the air. If the governement wanted to gas its citizens undetected, coundn’t they study the atmospheric conditions and only spray on days of very low humidity so the chemtrails wouldn’t show up? Also does spraying liquids and gasses at high altitudes have different effects regarding contrails?
Questions to all the people worried about spraying in the skies, do you use flouride toothpaste? Do you eat meat? Do you drink the water? Do you eat highly processed foods? Do you drive your car when you go to the corner store? Chances are your are taking in way more chemicals than just whats in the air.
Why is it that I must be a “shill” if I do not believe in “chemtrails” – Too often when faced with facts, the chemtrail crowd resorts to insults….I will not fall into that trap.
That you base your beliefs on ignorance is not my fault…or problem.
Perpendicular flight paths are “normal”. Persistent contrails are “normal”- man-made clouds to be sure…but a normal occurrence that has been documented for over 50 yrs and is not an indication of a nefarious “spraying” campaign of unknown origin and design.
Combine the 2 – perpendicular flt paths and persistent contrails…and you will get a “grid” pattern…its not rocket science…just simple logic…
Follow along here Gregg- …a plane leaves a persistent contrail…another plane crosses that flight path leaving another persistent contrail…now we have an “X”….Those trails persist and drift with the upper winds….2 more planes fly through the same paths leaving similar trails…et Voila! …a “grid” pattern…
Wave the explanation away with curses and “shill” comments if you must…but it is what happens…
As for breathing deep…again…if you really took the time to learn about the formation and behavior of contrails…the physical characteristics of the ice crystals therein…then you would know that what you see in the sky above you will not fall directly down on you…But that is for you to figure out.
You should really be more concerned about the point source pollution of the factory next door…or…the factories in China that are spewing toxins toward you.
That people want to control nature (weather mod, flood control etc) is not PROOF that there is a global campaign of nefarious intent involving the spraying of powdered aluminum. That is an illogical leap of faith that just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny…especially in light of the FACTS of contrail behavior and the absolute absence of any evidence of actual “chemtrails”.
I understand that it upsets your sense of well being to see planes leaving long lasting trails…and they very well may be effecting the weather…but do not let your lack of knowledge, fear and paranoia devolve into a lack of critical thinking, research and logic based conculsions.
Ross, SR1419, Uncinus and all,
Lets take a much more critical look at what chaff is and just a few of it’s expanded capabilities beyond jamming radio signals
since you genuinely seem interested.
Now lets take a quick look at applications for aerosolized dispersement of metals, including the harmless chaff, desicated polymer gunk that is irradiated, heated and changing both form and electric properties as it drifts across lands far and near,
In other words lets take a much more critical look at what chaff is and just a few of it’s expanded capabilities beyond jamming radio signals since you genuinely seem interested.
The place to spend some time examining recent atmospheric research is here, if you spend less than an hour pouring over
some of the abstracts to these current military processes then you’ve done yourselves and the subject matter a dis-service.
The choice is yours (lol)
http://www.stormingmedia.us/cat/sub/subcat31-35.html
Tip use keywords to examine a specific subject closely, modify search from the top of pages as well;
Only 1 example I can find of a barium atmospheric release -released to the public….
http://www.stormingmedia.us/00/0000/A000042.html
Lets see, what properties of barium might be useful
for military superiority….. hmmm…..
well, see above and think laterally… then
try starting here for some examples -
http://www.stormingmedia.us/keywords/barium.html
Remember, Barium comes in a state suitable for mixing with fuel as we know available in patents allegedly deployed during
Operation Desert Storm as part of the OVTHR communications (link forthcoming God willing)
With regard to spending time researching military applications of atmospheric ducting, ionization (yes, metals are involved)
and heating, you can come back to that and proceed with this excerpt.
IS THIS an example of what that ol’ harmless, red herring chaff is ?
see: http://www.stormingmedia.us/10/1059/D105910.html
Method for Producing Variable Density/Electric Dipole Property Chaff Decoy Material
Authors: John A. Eisele; Robert M. Mason; Francis J. Campbell; DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY WASHINGTON DC
Abstract: This disclosure relates to dielectric chaff materials or fibers which are small in character for packing and expandable on release to produce clouds of great cross section. Polymer materials are treated chemically and/or irradiated with nuclear or electronic radiation which partially decomposes the polymer. Upon release, the polymer is heated to Create gas hubbies from within which expand the dielectric fibers to change the density and shape of the dielectric.
Description: Patent, Filed 26 Mar 74, patented 4 May 99
Pages: 5
Report Date: 04 MAY 1999
Report Number: D105910
Report Unavailable
This disclosure relates to dielectric chaff materials or fibers which are small in character for packing and expandable on release to produce clouds of great cross section.
Keywords relating to this report:
CHAFF
DIELECTRICS
FIBERS
PATENTS
POLYMERS
RADAR CROSS SECTIONSZ
RADAR CROSS SECTIONSZCHAFF
RADAR DECEPTION
… gentlemen, the HEATING of the polymer fibers and partial breaking down continues until these aluminum particles are eventually (may take some time on the ground-which will be kicked up) until they are micron sized.
…Look around at some of the provided links and tell me that there ARE NOT expanded uses for ‘chaff’ or even improved dispersal systems. Heating is mentioned… amazing… enjoy chewing on your irradiated stew as these military operations “may be over your town”, I could not disprove it nor could Uncinus, nor anyone else here. Keep in mind that we are told this microwaved crap is benign. Enjoy your ‘theoretical’ as we don’t know at what level this spraying occurs nasty introduced goop that certainly disperses widely. Enjoy the sunset, … must be a lot of fires (actually there are in Ca. right now) the atmosphere sure looks dirty at sundown…
Shine a flashlight at night after a really nasty air day and perhaps (we won’t know all the science on it is suspect with too many potential sources, inputs) examine some polymers with desicated material hatching on it… may as well imagine the military released nanobots also lol …
Gentlemen I laugh because there is a strong theoretical theme since reports are not uniformly avail. for public munching, so alas
‘conspiracy’ theories are born. Sad but true that we can’t tell by looking at a planes exhaust if they are pumping metals for data
crunching, defense shields, counter measures against other countries electronic interference etc. If you can’t think laterally and
see the intense desire for these techs to be up and running then I would suggest that you are partially dead. We ain’t at the level
of cloud seeding with regard to military operations. The quest for air space superiority is amazing fierce and vital to having advantage. Other countries can send energy OTHR into the United States. Metals in the air, AND coating the ground assist our military with communication and vision. … and you guys all can’t be bothered with seeing the intense desire to heat areas of
air to create changes in propagation of frequency beams… allright have fun with discussing cloud seeding then… REALLY take
a look through the topics of research AND development of these projects. …. just chaff, harmless … lol !
- again look CLOSELY at the atmospheric studies listed, these are OLD projects, with the juicy bits (aerosols) blocked out YET mentioned in many reports available as ‘interference problems’ ‘algorithms to correct signals’ all these problems with atmospheric anomalies can be moderated with things (perhaps even incorrectly identified ‘chaff’ events) to provide BETTER images and better
communications. Think laterally and go beyond cloud seeding for what the ‘monied’ guys are doing…
Read page 8 of 9 the Entire Summary (2 paragraphs) directly above the References for where the author mentions terrain mapping in relation to electrical parameters, micro sized metals which are certain to disperse widely will assist in this, right? High levels of these metals are appearing in soil samples (again the science is always wrong here, so lets say we have some anecdotal evidence for lots of soil metals which uncinus can no doubt eloquently explain as being unreliable, from manufacturing etc. I’m not disagreeing with him for this as he’s right we probably can’t crunch the inputs accurately.
Anyways, if yah all can think laterally, you will see a robust number of reasons to have the best damn military in the world, and it may include chaff and other metal and polymer programs …
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td1802/donohue.pdf
For a more compelling look at the red herring chaff
http://www.stormingmedia.us/keywords/radar_deception.html
-p.s. the more time you spent researching Navy Radar mapping, communications
the more meaningful the above link will be with regards to metal dispersal applications
Oh and by the way (BTW) for you computer communications freaks
yes, I wish I did have the report for barium, aluminum and other dispersals from the government but alas, I do not.
Also, I haven’t a clue how widespread this atmospheric tampering is, just that we have a helluva strong military actively
taking into account electromagnetic warfare and unfortunately these technologies are also a good defensive shield (public record
spend some time, look HAARP etc.) So some metal relaying, protecting, probing, is very very very likely ongoing, just
don’t know the level. Probably not anywhere close to what the wacky chemtrailers think but the nastiness to environment
of these metals probably makes it prohibitive to disclose to the public.
All we can do is speculate, COMBINED with connecting the dots we do have. … Good luck, or skip it entirely up to you, God blesses
us still.
All in all the hell with it, I’m going out to play on the water, enjoy life,
God help us all with regards to our defense budget and it’s innumerable ‘black projects’ many without oversight
I’m going to sail on the water while potentially chewing on some Polymer materials are treated chemically and/or irradiated with nuclear or electronic radiation which partially decomposes the polymer. Upon release, the polymer is heated to Create gas hubbies with their changed dielectric.
Regards,
Bryansail
I’m sorry Bryan but all I got from your post was:
1) the military released some barium in a test of something in 1980
2) the military patented a method of packing chaff better, which they filed in 1974
Are you saying that “chemtrails” are actually chaff? What constitutes a “chemtrail”? Do you have a photos of “chemtrails”, are there any photos of these chaff chemtrails on the internet you can point to?
Or are you just saying that chaff is too poisonous to use? Is there any evidence to support this?
And what’s all this about ducting? Is there any evidence that this is used? Why do they need to use it, when satellite and radio communication works perfectly well.
BrianSale:
Chaff are not “nano” particles…Chaff is typically in the size range of .5 inch to 2 inches in length.
Moreover, the delivery method is nothing like the supposed spraying method of chemtrails…and the visible result of chaff are also nothing like the persistent contrails that get confused for “chemtrails”….
To ingest enough chaff to cause harm, one would literally have to ingest right from the source- which, being shot mechanically out of a plane, is not likely.
So, I guess the question is…what is your point?
Are you saying that “chemtrails” are really chaff?? Or that “chemtrails” do not really exist but we should all be concerned about indiscriminate use of chaff?
Do you have any information regarding how much chaff is being deployed? It certainly isn’t daily, globally and causing a haze in the skies.
Also- nothing in any of those abstracts says anything about chaff being delivered via jet exhaust…?? Can you expound?
Uncinus,
Did you read the pdf link summary even? Or spend some serious time ‘pouring’ over the voluminous report abstracts, Or HAARPs
request for more funding (defense of airspace etc.) the reports direction of study link to the use of chaff and metals for many
different purposes.
BTW, the military has more recently released metals (above 60,000) which induced military made auroras for public digestion.
The ability of that patent for creating ionization fields in the atmosphere through the heating of metals should not be
overlooked Uncinus, nor the need for better ducting over land masses which becomes apparent if you actually look at atmospheric research and development in detail. Satellite and radio communications do not work perfectly well for one thing. We also need
communications viability in the event of a pulsed explosion by an enemy which would cripple modern communications in the U.S.
You really have to spend the time or you can condense and see nothing (as in your post above) there is a robust need for
control of weather systems, improved communications, 3-D rendering, and weopon development which require atmospheric tinkering.
If you don’t look at the thrust of the research of some of the keywords than you will see nothing as in your above post.
Thanks for being so gracious in allowing me to turn the topic away from contrails. I think CT’ers have completely shot themselves in the foot since they have so completely screwed up how you can’t tell a contrail v. chemtrail by looking or bad sampling.
My personal belief after a lot of study is that we do dispense aerosols for military purposes for many different gains, due to the deleterious nature of the chemicals and metals there is no release to the public of this activity. I don’t know the scope of their use, but evidence exists that we are working in arenas that benefit from introduction of metals into the atmosphere if you look at
the areas of existing public research (again, it will only benefit if you search keywords from my prior post which I doubt many
of us will bother to do)
I can’t answer the questions you have about chaff Uncinus as I really don’t know how far reaching damage may be from using chaff.
As for ducting there is evidence of a need to improve terrain mapping abilities over land due to heat reflection problems, weather system problems and SEVERAL other current limitations. You will only see the need if you CLOSELY at the reports on OTHR and other programs. The info. is out there but I can’t make you look at it.
I think we just return to discussions of how the CT’ ers have it wrong by saying every damn trail is a chemtrail. They are more
than likely very wrong since their determinations are false. I can’t tell you how often, how robust these programs are but the information as to their previous use (in limited studies from what I can detail) is out there. Go have a look as it’s very interesting
but don’t expect me to have very many answers. The truth is a razors edge no doubt and we aren’t going to get admission of
use of these defense shields ect.
Regards,
Bryansail
Well, do you think that ANY trail is a “chemtrail” (or “chafftrail”)? What do these chemtrails you are worried about actually look like?
I think your reading of the documents has a large degree of speculation in it. Do you have any actual evidence that something is happening? Evidence that the military is secretly releasing harmful amounts of chemicals into the air? Why has this NEVER shown up on any air quality tests?
I’m sorry, but saying “read these 100 documents and apply some lateral thinking” is not very good evidence.
SARS1409,
The chaff is nothing like you describe, it is actually like this (posted again just for you)
Your examination of chaff is very much what was used at one time and it is the one fed to the weather channel mouthpieces and
your local weatherperson, but not very much like the improved delivery systems and ‘activated’ metals and polymers utilized now.
Abstract: This disclosure relates to dielectric chaff materials or fibers which are small in character for packing and expandable on release to produce clouds of great cross section. Polymer materials are treated chemically and/or irradiated with nuclear or electronic radiation which partially decomposes the polymer. Upon release, the polymer is heated to Create gas hubbies from within which expand the dielectric fibers to change the density and shape of the dielectric.
and it gets better (or worse actually) as these polymers d e c o m p o s e as they drift through the atmosphere. These dielectric fibers are anything but benign as they have been radio-activated. With regard to modern chaff, here is a hint, smaller is better. The research on this has been done and some of it is public record and some can be viewed from the links I posted above, but hey information overload and I’m sure you have many other things to do. The aluminum particles are much smaller than the model you
cite, nearly nano sized while in the atmosphere, once on the ground they get much smaller still until they are nanosized. As you may be aware, that material can be lifted by weather and wind. As for dispersal methods, aluminum can and has been dispersed
in a liquid state already. The evidence of that is out there and the one final link I will provide (soon) is evidence of chemtrails being used for OTHR in Desert Storm.
Uncinus,
You are right to want actual evidence of widespread spraying programs, some ACTUAL evidence has been provided but it is not evidence of any large scale on going program. Instead what can be found is evidence supporting testing of these metals in the atmosphere. There is much evidence supporting the use of these atmospheric lifters / modifiers and communication enhancers. There is at least that much evidence and if you don’t see it you still haven’t looked closely at the documents (actually 1000’s of documents that pertain to atmospheric intervention). Very very little evidence for the widespread use of these metals. Regarding air quality, pretty darn sure that there have been air quality tests that have shown metals and polymers but their origin is unclear, levels could be explained as coming from dust, manufacturing, etc. I don’t have the evidence that I would like but the evidence I have looked at and nudged you towards…(did it ’smell’ funny or was it too laborious?) suggests strongly that our military perceives the need to use these metals. You’ll have an easier time finding evidence of cloud seeding since the military has moved way beyond this technique, it is inside the public domain because cloud seeding is more benign than chemically treated polymers and electrically activated metals. Dennis Kucinichs’ Bill HR 2977 was later changed with the word ‘chemtrails’ removed which is one of dozens of examples of how these programs aren’t up for public discussion so we don’t have direct evidence. Very unsatisfying, isn’t it? I don’t have answers as to how widespread the use of these aerosols is, but thanks in part to Uncinus at least I’m not as deluded about contrail characteristics as Will Thomas, Rosylnn Peterson, or Clifford Carnicom are. How is it that no one can get a damn petri dish out into the air at 35,000ft. or a fresh contrail sample?
Oh and as for those ‘zany’ orbs I mentioned, keep looking up at fresh contrails (they are very small and brilliantly bright objects moving inside and very near contrails) When you do finally see one I will be very surprised if you still think that they are balloons, plastic bags, and birds. I’m rather certain you will be quite surprised. Google orbwars to see pictures of these stealthed crafts, or blurry pixels lol-not very satisfying until you see one yourself. To see how military aircraft can be made invisible hunt around at thelinks above. Heres a hint, plasma, ionized fields, electrically charged particles, aerosols ex; metals -the smaller the better) are involved. You don’t have to take my word that the military wants stealthy craft, take a good look at the evidence that they have attained it through atmospheric intervention if you’d like.
-Bryansail
Again you quote a patent filed in 1970, that’s chaff that is nearly 40 years old.
So you think chaff is polluting the environment? Is that your problem? But you can’t produce any evidence other than “look closely at 1000’s of documents”?
And orbs – if you can SEE an orb in a convincing manner then why can’t you PHOTOGRAPH an orb in a convincing manner?
Brainsail:
This “abstract” you supply:
“Abstract: This disclosure relates to dielectric chaff materials or fibers which are small in character for packing and expandable on release to produce clouds of great cross section. Polymer materials are treated chemically and/or irradiated with nuclear or electronic radiation which partially decomposes the polymer. Upon release, the polymer is heated to Create gas hubbies from within which expand the dielectric fibers to change the density and shape of the dielectric.”
It says nothing of the size of chaff other than “small in character”- Thus, how do you know its size?? How do you know it is “nothing” like what I described??
Moreover, it also says the chaff is EXPANDABLE upon release- gets bigger!!
Were you to busy thinking laterally to read for comprehension?
You say “The aluminum particles are much smaller than the model you cite”- Where is the documentation of this?? I did not see any information regarding the size of current chaff in those 100s of abstracts. Please provide documentation and source for your claim.
That the military is devising new technologies and techniques for use in war should not be a surprise…that there might be some negative consequences is a very real possibility.
but as you say- there is “Very very little evidence for the widespread use of these metals”I think you should take it a step further and be truthful about it- there is NO evidence of “widespread use” Periodic testing over 40years is not widespread. Which to me suggests that there are greater concerns about environmental issues elsewhere…I do not see how “pretty darn sure” can be taken as a valid cause of concern.
You should be more worried about the pesticides they put on your food rather than the chaff they test occasionally.
Thanks for the information. I definitely have learned more about chaff than I ever thought I would know.
I also believe this tests have NOTHING to do with the persistent contrails that fill the sky on a daily basis globally and cause people to panic for fear of “chemtrails”.
BS33-
To ease your fear that you so overwhelmed us with information and that we would would not look “(did it ’smell’ funny or was it too laborious?)”- I did look and found some very interesting papers for sure:
You will probably dismiss this as it doesn’t befit your fear mongering but it is from the same stuff you wanted to enlighten us with:
Abstract: This document reports the results from an investigation of the impact of aluminized glass chaff countermeasures on environmental aluminum levels in the Chesapeake Bay. This study was conducted by the Naval Health Research Detachment (Toxicology) in response to concerns expressed over the potential environmental hazards that might be associated with the release of aluminized glass chaff fibers during training exercises by Naval aviators. Chaff used to provide protection against radar based attack on aircraft and other military vehicles is composed of aluminum coated glass fibers. Concern has been expressed as to the environmental hazard and potential for human health risk associated with routine release of this material during training exercises. The objective of this study was to evaluate the impact of U.S. Navy flight training operations on aluminum content in the Chesapeake Beach region of the Chesapeake Bay, an area over which chaff countermeasure flight training operations have been conducted for nearly a quarter century. Exchangeable and monomeric aluminum content in sediment from the flight path within the Bay is not significantly different from nearby background levels within the Bay. Background residential exchangeable aluminum levels were not significantly different from soil samples obtained from a residential area adjacent to the NRL-CBD complex at Chesapeake Beach.
http://www.stormingmedia.us/45/4546/A454683.html
I know the government is highly capable of inadvertently poisoning its own people but I think they are “pretty darn sure” that chaff is not serious environmental threat.
Smaller is not better for chaff. The size of chaff is determined by the wavelength of the radar you want to reflect, so if you make it any smaller than has been used so far, it will not work.
And, as SR1419 pointed out, pollution from chaff has nothing to do with persistent contrails, so I’m still not really sure why you are bringing it up here.
Uncinus,
Uncinus, the reflection of radar is not necessarily based on the
size of the chaff anymore. The radar signal in this application
is reflected by the electromagnetic field generated by the metals
used. An example of smaller is better.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5619205.html
In this application for improved chaff thinner is better (i.e. thinner = smaller)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4100102.html
Abstract:
A composition for nullifying detection with infra-red equipment
consisting essentially of a suspension of 30-40% by weight of aluminum
particles in from 60 to 70% by weight of vaporizable hydrocarbon oil,
said aluminum particles have diameters in range of 2 to 20 microns
and thickness of less than 3/10 micron.
Re; pollution from chaff has nothing to do with persistent contrails. Many applications and
discussions on ‘wet plumes’ of chaff dispersal exist. Chaff can be dispensed from fluids
suitable for dispensing from jet fuels, this is why we are discussing chaff here as chaff can
be a constituent of contrails. So it is very pertinent to examination of contrails right?
Re; chaff delivery systems from a fluid;
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4167008.html
Title:
Fluid bed chaff dispenser
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 4167008
Abstract:
The dispensing of the chaff fibers takes place in two distinct steps.
Initially, a mixture of chaff and fluidization media is delivered to a
fluidization chamber. Bleed air from the jet engines is caused to flow
through the mixture of chaff and fluidization media to thereby cause
the chaff fibers to churn and become separated in the fluidization
chamber. Valves located at the ends of the fluidization chamber open
in response to pilot or onboard ECM system activation to dispense the
pre-separated chaff fibers.
List of chaff patents
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/CCL-342-12.html
This patent discusses putting the ‘chaff’ into the path of
electromagnetic energy
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4638316.html
This is a good read regarding how much thinner / smaller chaff
can be;
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5212488/description.html
improving chaff performance through making a thinner chaff
(i.e. smaller diameters = improved performance through a wider
spectrum and slow the fall rate over traditional chaff significantly.
“We can conclude from the tests above that solid aluminum spheres of
about 30 microns in diameter (an inexpensive powder) would have low
fall rates, and would screen effectively all frequencies above about
3000 GHz.”
One portion of the patent mentions the benign nature of the chaff
BEFORE it is coated with conductive material. The patent states that
it must be coated with a conductive material.
THIN = Small …
as long as the chaff dipoles can continue to be made proportionately
thinner as they are shorter (with increasing frequency), it is possible to
gain increasing cross section/package as a function of frequency.
Once a point of minimum practical thickness has been reached,
however, the equivalent cross section/package decreases with
frequency. The thinnest chaff possible produces the greatest equivalent radar
cross section (RCS) for a given volume of chaff package. At some
point, however, the coated glass fibers will reach some practical
minimum thickness. When this point is reached, the effectiveness of the
chaff will degrade with increasing frequency.
Chaff degradation from oxidation. These very thin (apparently hollow
in some applications) decay. So the small size very likely becomes
smaller still as I have pointed out previously.
for an example of this process and the linkage I mentioned to micron sized
metals look here. So small is good ‘up to a point’ yet the chaff
continues to become smaller beyond it’s use in military applications.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6017628.html
“…In the presence of atmospheric moisture, such evanescent chaff
undergoes oxidization of the oxidizable metal coating so that the
conductivity and radar absorbance/reflectance characteristics of the
chaff transiently decays.”
Here’s one on barium from airplanes that is extremely interesting;
Originally Posted by NIH
The high levels of Ba stemmed from local quarrying for Ba ores and/or
use of Ba in paper/foundry/welding/textile/oil and gas well related
industries, as well as from the use of Ba as an atmospheric aerosol
spray for enhancing/refracting the signalling of radio/radar waves
along military jet flight paths, missile test ranges, etc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082100?dopt=Abstract
A barium / heated metals link to disease?
http://www.markpurdey.com/pdf/metal_microcrystal_tse.pdf
Please note that sources mentioned include mostly industrial /
manufacturing but also mentions ‘atmospheric discharge’ or
munitions explosions.
Barium and partial list of patents pertaining to aerosols (i.e. contrails)
http://www.luxefaire.com/devilvision/appxhtml/BappendixparticulatesB.html
My contention is that we should be aware and concerned about the
possibility of programs of aerosol disbursement which have untoward
effects on bio-systems. I don’t think it’s fear mongering (as SR1419 mentioned
for some reason) to see the use of barium, aluminum, titanium and
polymers as a real concern since their use is confirmed.
I am extremely careful to not say that there is a widespread use of them
as I don’t have the evidence. I do see a multitude of reasons why
the DOD would not admit to the widespread use of metals. I also
see evidence of the military continually downplaying the dangers
of chemical releases and atmospheric mitigation.
A fun example of the government saying a chemical is o.k. would be
their treatment of the jetfuel additive JP-8. There is a great deal of
double speak and deflection seen with regards to its use.
Regards,
Bryansail
Bryan, this site is not chaffscience.com, perhaps you should start that? Contrailscience is about contrails, and things that resemble them. Nothing you’ve discussed resembles contrails. It seems you simply think that the military is secretly and illegally using too much aerosolized metals in various capacities. I don’t think you’ve really shown much evidence of this, and I also think that general industry and transport releases far more pollution even than you are speculating – so I’m unsure why you are so focused on this one kind of rather speculative pollution.
That said, you raise a lot of points, but they don’t really stand up to scrutiny:
Wrong, the (1985) patent states: “The overall size or physical dimensions of the chaff elements will be dependent upon the wave length of the primary radar or radio signal for which interference is sought. The length of the chaff should be the wave length of the primary signal or some multiple thereof. The width of the chaff element can be in the range of 1 mil to approximately 10 mils”
Wrong, it’s not a patent for chaff. It’s essentially a “smoke screen”, used for ground based installations, and was invented in 1960
Wrong. You are confusing “fluid” and “liquid”. Gasses are fluids. The patent clear describes a DRY chaff system.
This patent discusses putting the ‘chaff’ into the path of
electromagnetic energy
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4638316.html
Correct, however, since radar IS electromagnetic energy, it’s entirely meaningless.
Alright, so this 1992 patent describes a type of chaff (aluminum dust) that can be used to complement traditional fiber chaff. But why exactly is this a cause for concern? Is the military deploying this chaff on a daily basis over American cities? Are there studies that say it is harmful? What exactly is the problem here?
Consider what were are talking about here: Aluminum dust (or aluminum powder). This has several non-military uses. One is in the production of fireworks – millions of which will be fired into the air this forth of July – is this a concern? Aluminum powder is used for many other purposes, and many thousands of tons of aluminum powder are manufactured and used every year: see:
http://en.hnyyly.com/newEbiz1/EbizPortalFG/portal/html/index.html
I’m sorry, but Medical Hypotheses is not a reputable source. They publish “radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas” without peer review, so you can write pretty much anything you want in there. See:
http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/623059/authorinstructions
So I think you need a better source of “the use of Ba as an atmospheric aerosol
spray for enhancing/refracting the signalling of radio/radar waves
along military jet flight paths, missile test ranges,”
Your next link is by the same author (Mark Purdy), so has the same problems.
So, you seem to have mis-read a lot of (often very old) patents, and reading too much into some rumors of odd usages of Barium. You have no evidence to actually suggest something is going on, and even then – the things you suggest are problematic are actually vastly dwarfed by industrial pollution.
final entry. This website has no evedence that something is’nt going on. After what I saw yesterday in the sky, there is no doubt in my mind that there is abnormal airplane activity in the skys over head. All i read here is a bunch of garbage and ostrich head in the sand stuff. You guys are exactly what they want. Fat dumb and happy. this web site is a joke!
The point of this website is not to provide evidence that something is not going on. That would be pointless, as you can’t prove that something does not exist. It’s like saying “There’s no proof that aliens does not exist, so they must exist”.
No, the point is to show that the is no evidence that chemtrails DO exist. This is perhaps a subtle distinction, and I know a lot of people don’t seem to appreciate the difference. But I think what I’ve shown here is:
A) There is no evidence to suggest chemtrails exist.
B) Contrails explain the observed events, and have done since 1921.
Gregger, I’ve explained the things you describe. So why do you still believe? What exactly is the evidence you think you have that I’ve not explained well enough to you? I’d be happy to explain further.
Gregger-
what did you see in the sky??
…and how is that different than supersaturated persistent contrails that spread out and cover the sky in haze of thin cirrus?
What is “normal” airplane activity?
So, maybe we should start calling chemtrails by their government/military name; aerosols. Does that help all the brain-deads out there? Weather modification is ADMITTED at this point. Universities have admitted it, NASA Scientists have admitted it, the government has admitted it, and just a couple of months ago, The Monterey Herald reported that there are over 60 weather modification tests taking place in the western united states currently. This is done by spraying nano-sized chemicals out of military airplanes in PATTERNS. No one has debunked The Atmospheric Science Program, ran by the Department of Energy, which is the indirect, and semi-direct aerosol campaign. Owning The Weather by 2025, from 1996, does talk about much more than cloud-seeding Uncinus-SR1419. That was over 12 years ago. Think how much better they are now. You both talk about how this is all cloud-seeding; like Project Popeye, or contrails. Well, it is much more than that. They can: flood areas (like they’re doing in the midwest currently), they can induce drought, remove fog and clouds, make fog and clouds, choose battlefield environments by storm modification, change space weather, shape weather patterns,steering weather, increase or decrease the severity of storms, etc. Take a look at page 11 of Owning the Weather by 2025; you’ll see step 4 says Employ weather modification tools-and there is a plane with a large tank for spraying chemicals. Then, step 5 shows cause-effect of the weather modification-with a picture for you there as well! Artificial weather creation is talked about on page 27 using nanotechnology (nanotechnology is currently in many consumer products, as well as aerosol compounds-and this science is developing rapidly). Take a look at page 34 of Owning the Weather by 2025, and you will see a graph. Remember, it is 2008 right now. But, in 1996 they show that they have Aerospace Delivery Vehicles that release chemicals, Directed Energy, Artificial Ionospheric Mirrors, and Smart Clouds (nanotechnology). NOW. You got that? And now is 1996. It is 2008 currently. Ben Livingston has point blank said that the government/military uses chemicals released from airplanes to manipulate the weather in many ways. His latest world-wide comments were that we can reduce or destroy hurricanes by spraying aerosols into them, and have been able to do so since the 1960’s. With regards to Hurricane Katrina, he stated that they refused to kill the hurricane because of political reasons, and probably made it worse., He is a retired military naval physicist. Not cloud-seeding. Not contrails. Don’t ask me who the head of
the FAA is that I spoke to who said only military planes leave low-level lasting chemtrails.
Find out yourself. Call the GLOBE Project at NASA. Call Universities. Do something other than convince these brain-dead idiots on your website that everything is a contrail.
Lasting contrails are possible with HIGH humidity, and LOW temperatures. VERY RARE! The 33,000 foot minimum level for contrails was stated by the Airforce when I spoke to one of their aviation experts. Now, take a couple of pieces of this writing that you can say, “well, you can’t prove that,” and pretend everything is a contrail. We’ve presented plenty of information. You say things like, “well that plane you said that made a perfect chemtrail circle that lasted for hours was in a holding pattern.” A perfect circle, with no trail left before or after the perfect circle was made. Yeah right guys. I’m embarrassed to even be on this site, but my friend begged me to write another post to the brain-dead idiots. Spraying nano-sized chemicals out of military planes to manipulate the weather is ADMITTED. Conversation over. We are correct. You are incorrect.
How hard is it to tell me the name of the head of the FAA that you spoke to? I don’t know WHEN you spoke to him or her, so it could be anyone. But let’s say it was Marian Blakey. You are claiming that Marian Blakey told you that “NONE of their planes leave chemtrails, only military ones.” Is that correct? It just seems a little odd that everyone in the Government has been saying this is just a hoax, and then Blakey, the head of the FAA, goes and says it’s not, and then says it’s a military thing.
Of course weather modification is admitted. Nobody has ever denied it. It’s been going on for decades, with no secrecy. What you fail to show though, is any evidence of what they are ACTUALLY DOING that is related to persistent contrails. Quoting obscure speculative documents is not evidence. Evidence would be photos, videos, chemical analyses, etc. So far all evidence suggested has been shown to be just normal contrails, and normal pollution.
Very rare? Now how exactly would you know these conditions are very rare? And how often is “very rare”? 5% of the time? 1%? 50%? Could you perhaps quote a science book? Could you quote ANYTHING that says that “normal” contrails don’t last very long? Because I’ve quoted a lot of books and articles that do not suggest these conditions are not rare at all, and that spreading contrails are actually a common sight.
And this 33,000 foot thing from an aviation expert? Let’s look at that again: “The 33,000 foot minimum level for contrails”. It’s been well known that the criteria for contrail formation is not altitude, it’s temperature. Specifically -40 degrees. I’m sure you’ve heard this figure. So why 33,000 feet? It’s quite possible to have -40 at SEA LEVEL (in Alaska, in the winter, for example, where cars make persistent contrails), but a more common figure above the continental US is 26,000 feet. Indeed, right now, in the middle of Summer, in New York it’s -41F at 30,000 feet. Obviously the altitude is lower in winter.
http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi?location=JFK&Submit=Get+Forecast&hour=06&course=azimuth
So you see the problem here. You make these statements that have no basis in science, or in evidence, such as the 33,000 feet. Then you say you were told this by a contact in the Air force, or the head of the FAA. But what you claim they told you is contradicted by ALL the science books, scientific papers, scientists and meteorologists.
So why should anyone believe anything you say? I’m sorry, but until you get the basic science right, there’s no point moving on to the more esoteric things you claim. So if you want to discuss this further, then show me you understand the formation criteria for contrails and persistent contrails, and the prevalence of these conditions in the upper atmosphere.
Marcus-
Weather modification- yes, lots of studies, experiments, desires and attempts at/for weather modification. It has been around for a very long time:
http://www.weathermodification.org/
Nobody- at least not I- ever claimed there were not weather mod attempts…nor did I ever say that “this is all cloud-seeding”- do not put words in my mouth.
Does that mean there is a global, clandestine operation filling the skies with persistent contrails that spread out and cover the sky in a haze daily?
No.
Are most of the tests and experiments done by Universities, and gov’t agencies (NOAA, NASA) – and not done in “military” planes…Yes- see here for an example:
http://www.asp.bnl.gov/Aerosol-Cumuliform.html
Moroever- the tests do not result in persistent contrails- cloud seeding, hurricane abatement etc do not leave persistent trails that last for hours and days and spread out in a Cirrus sheet…which is what every “chemtrail” believer sees and thinks it’s a “chemtrail”.
As for the Atmospheric Science Program?? What is there to debunk?? Looks like an interesting program:
http://www.asp.bnl.gov/
Its existence certainly does not mean there is a global, clandestine spraying operation leaving persistent contrails filled with barium that spread out and cover the sky in a haze.
If you truly understood the projects they are working on- none of them require leaving persistent trails that spread out in cirrus sheets.
When you say “They can: flood areas (like they’re doing in the midwest currently)”…
Do you have any proof of that claim whatsoever?? What is the single most compelling piece of evidence that the flooding Iowa is a result of a clandestine military operation? Is there any chance that it could just be a vagary of normal weather patterns?? Did it ever flood in Iowa 100 yrs ago? 1000 years ago? Do you think every extreme weather event is some secret military operation?? You make bold statements but have nothing to actually back it up with. The desire for weather mod doesn’t mean that every weather event is a result of it.
Why would they want Iowa to flood?
As for Ben Livingston??? His activity in Weather Modification has been with cloud seeding and hurricane abatement…Nothing at all to do with persistent contrails that spread out and cover the sky in a thin cirrus sheet. Nothing.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/october2005/141005weather_modification.htm
What does his company specialize in?? Cloud Seeding. Ask him to use one of his planes to sample a persistent contrail and see if it is laced with barium.
http://www.weathermod.com/
So, yes- you are correct- lots of research and programs involving aerosols and weather modification…but you are utterly incorrect if you think that any persistent trail you see in the sky is a “chemtrail”- regardless of the plane that left the trail or the pattern it flew.
The reality is that the vast majority- if not all- the “chemtrails” people think they see, post pictures of on the internet etc…are really supersaturated, persistent contrails. This is fact. Plain and simple fact. The vast majority of “chemtrail” believers are under the mis-guided impression that any trail that does not dissipate in a few minutes is a “chemtrail”. Their only “evidence” of “chemtrails” is that they persist, spread out and cover the sky in haze. Then they take a picture of it and post it on the internet and claim it’s a “chemtrail”. Speculation based on ignorance. Not a good recipe for truth.
Given the SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT that the behavior of some contrails is EXACTLY the same as those visible behaviors attributed to “chemtrails”, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know you are seeing a “chemtrail” just by looking at it. To claim you know for certain that what you see is a “chemtrail” is to expose your ignorance. Without testing the plume in situ- you know nothing. Regardless of the plane that left the trail or the pattern it flew. Why can’t a military test pilot fly a circle through some supersaturated air?? Why can’t any of the atmospheric studies involving the use of planes fly in a circle? Why can’t a amateur pilot fly a circle through some supersaturate air? How is the pattern a plane flew proof of anything?? Your logic abandoned you.
I urge you to find one program, test, or “operation” of weather modification that results in long lasting contrails that spread out and cover the sky in a thin cirrus cloud.
The conditions for persistent contrails (supersaturation with respect to ice) have been estimated to be prevalent a significant amount of the time in the Northern hemisphere:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm#341
Close your mind if you must- wish that the conversation was over if you must…but your ignorance of the basic science of contrails makes your speculation and accusations highly dubious at best.
Good luck with that.
I guess you’re going to say Michael Castle doesn’t know what chemtrails (among other atmospheric deadly technologies) are, like you did about Dennis Kucinich, and the Space Preservation Act of 2001, 2002, 2005. Right? P.S. You still left the majority of my documented facts out of your response from my last post. Like you always do.
Citizen Drafts Bill to Prohibit Chemtrail Poisonings & Inhumane Weaponry
(Requires Urgent Delivery to Treasonous Weasels Occupying U.S. Congress)
By R. Michael Castle-Republican Congressman from Delaware
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/unifiedatmosphericpreservatrionact04mar08.shtml
Good luck with your contrail crap Uncinus. Take care
I explained why I was not going to address you speculation on weather modification. You first have to show that you understand the criteria for contrail formation and persistence before you can accurately speculate on what might be causing similar phenomena. So if you’d like to take back the 33,000 feet, and your quote from the “FAA Head”, then we can discuss.
Of course, SR1419 has addressed most of your points, so feel free to take it up with him.
No, I don’t think that Republican Congressman Mike Castle knows what chemtrails are. You are confusing him with Richard Michael Castle, a chemtrail theorist since 2000, who actually wrote the piece you attribute to the congressman.
Rep Mike Castle:
http://www.castle.house.gov/
R. Mike Castle:
http://www.rense.com/general76/castlebio.htm
My bad Uncinus. You are correct, it is Dr. Castle who is way smarter than any politician ever could be. Sorry about that. Anyway, the point is, we can disagree on slight differences on the altitude needed for contrail formation, but I do agree that persistent contrails can occasionally form, and spread. However, the evidence associated with all of the technologies that I have listed regarding atmospheric manipulation is undeniable. Those technologies go hand in hand with aerial spraying of what we are calling chemtrails. Debunk all of that technology, and its association with released aerosol agents from military jets that form massively thick lines and differentiated patterns all over the world, and outside of known flight paths, and maybe I’ll write another post in the future.
Take care
What’s to debunk? There’s no secrecy about clouds seeding, or fog dispersal, or even hail mitigation. SR1419 answered a lot of your more general points above.
On contrails though, you seem to be claiming that that are more persistent contrails than would be expected. I think that’s the central misunderstanding in the whole “chemtrail” saga. You started out saying that contrails only form above 33,000 feet, and that the right conditions are “very rare”. Now you seem to accept this is not true?
And regarding: “released aerosol agents from military jets that form massively thick lines and differentiated patterns all over the world, and outside of known flight paths” – can you give any evidence that this is actually happening?
Is there a photo that shows this that you can demonstrate is NOT just a photo of contrails?
And what are these “known flight paths”? Can you name ONE SPOT in the US, outside of an MOA, that is not within wind blowing distance of a known flight path? Jets fly pretty much over every square mile of the US. Name ONE SPOT where these operations are going on.
http://users.design.ucla.edu/~akoblin/work/faa/ss/5.jpg
There are two problems with “contrail science” explanations:
1) Changes to our sky and clouds happened drastically and quickly. Our skies looked very different 10-15 years ago. It is not simply that there are more aircraft. They are higher, faster and in greater quantities than ever before. But even so, the patterns don’t seem to quite match up. It’s possible that there are also changes to the humidity and temperatures in the stratosphere over the last decade too. But a simple “condensation” explanation is simply not adequate because it does not address the phenomenon completely.
In other words, there have been contrails for over fifty years, but they only recently began having a profound affect on our weather and sky, and of course our concern is over the potential health issues.
2) People who have spouted contrail science from encyclopedic sources don’t seem to paying attention to the actual affects. (Looking at the screen instead of the sky?) Several times in my research I have seen meteorologists point to “contrails” AND “natural clouds” when it’s obvious to anyone who has been watching that ALL the clouds in the scene are from jets. If we can see that you are not understanding the picture, why should we believe your parroted analysis?
How is it that people who learn from books always think books are right– even though books are constantly being updated and corrected? I assure you, the more research and observation you do, the less certain you will become.
–Artificial Clouds
Dave, when you say “They are higher, faster and in greater quantities than ever before”, do you have any actual evidence that this is greater than would be expected by the larger number of airplanes?
I’m not really sure what your point is here? I freely admit that there are lots of contrails in the sky, and that they probably alter the weather slightly due to the increased cloud cover. But this is well known, and not a secret, nor a conspiracy. What on my site have I misstated? If I have any errors, I’d be very happy to correct the.
On YOUR site, you have some photo with statements and questions that I’d like to address:
http://artificialclouds.com/chemtrails_2.jpg
“Much of the earth’s surface gets covered with jet clouds”
That’s simply not true. For a start the jets only fly on an a limited fraction of the earth’s surface. But more to the point, the weather does not support persistent contrails every day. Have a look at these satellite photos of the Pacific Northwest:
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?subset=AERONET_HJAndrews.2008184.terra.1km
I’ve picked a day that actually HAS some persistent contrails, and possibly some cloud cover resultent from them. But click on “PREV”, and you’ll see there was none the previous day. Keep clicking on “PREV” and see how many days actually have persistent contrails. Very few.
So to say “Much of the earth’s surface get covered with jet clouds” is a huge exaggeration, and more accurately would be “Some of the earth’s surface occasionally is partly covered with jet clouds”
http://artificialclouds.com/chemtrails_3.jpg
“what are jet contrails made of?”, “what is jet fuel made of?”
Contrails are made of ice. Jet fuel is made of hydrocarbons, very similar to gasoline. You know this, yet are scaremongering for some reason.
http://artificialclouds.com/contrail_4.jpg
“How can jets cover the whole sky with clouds?”, “When did this start?”
Jet leave a contrail which is a dense cirrus cloud. If they leave it in moist air, then it will spread out and possibly cover the sky, especially if there are several jets. This started at least in 1944, when it was observed:
(See: http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/ for more quotes like that, with sources).
http://artificialclouds.com/contrail_5.jpg
“Is this a problem?”, “Where will it go from here”.
It’s a bit of a problem, in that it’s visual pollution, and might possibly be contributing to Global Climate Change, although we don’t know what the net effect is. It will get worse if air traffic increases.
You know, your site seems quite reasonable, but is tinged with the rather inexplicable insistence that there is some kind of conspiracy going on. Yet you give no actual evidence of any conspiracy, and most of of your argument is how amazing it is that people don’t notice that on some days a lot of the cloud cover is artificial.
Uncinus,
Thank you for ATTEMPTING to help those out there who are easily led, yet can’t seem to find the time to read a book on meteorology. As a former private pilot I was horrified recently to find out that there are people out there that believe in “chemtrails”. I remember as a child laying on my back on the picnic table and watching the trails for hours. It’s what got me interested in flying in the first place! There is NOTHING about the trails of today that differ from the trails of those days as a kid. I’m talking mid 70’s here! Those who say they didn’t see long lasting trails when they were kids weren’t watching what I saw! I live in a direct path from Logan airport to all points west. I have lived here all my life (purchased the house from my folks) and there isn’t a doubt in my mind that these chemtrail people are wrong! I’ve recently been trying to help some of the poor unfortunate souls on youtube and they refuse to believe me. They accuse me of being some government shill and suggest that my education in meteorology doesn’t apply.
Oh well, all we can do is try to help, right?
Thank you so much for trying to help these poor unfortunate people.
Good luck to you!
Dave,
When you say “but they only recently began having a profound affect on our weather”….
Can you expound? What is the “profound affect” ??
…and isn’t there a positive correlation between the increase in air traffic over the last 20yrs and the increased contrails??
Did it, in fact, happen “drastically and quickly” ?? Or was that just your perception?? Did you, in fact, notice it prior to anyone else telling you to notice??
What exactly are the “patterns that don’t match up”??
You need to be precise when you say there have been “contrails for 50 years” – There have been contrails that persisted and spread into sheets of man-made cirrus clouds for over 50 years.
I do not see any difference in the behavior of contrails between then and now…there are just more of them now.
Persistent contrails and contrail cirrus are quite possibly effecting the weather- and there are and have been and will be many studies to accurately gauge this- see here this paper from 1970:
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/098/mwr-098-10-0745.pdf.
Clearly, it was very much a concern back then.
…and this paper from 1980:
http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&issn=1520-0450&volume=020&issue=05&page=0496
or this paper from 1985:
http://www.earthscape.org/r2/ams/vol78_97/bams_78_09_1885.pdf.
The reflective nature of the ice crystals in the contrail may be different than “natural” clouds and there is a lot of concern about that.
So, again, I encourage you to clearly delineate how the contrails of today are in any way different than what has been observed before….other than quantity.
This statement: “it’s obvious to anyone who has been watching that ALL the clouds in the scene are from jets. If we can see that you are not understanding the picture, why should we believe your parroted analysis?”
How is this any different than what has been observed?? If you go back and look at all the contrail research that has been done over the last 50 years, you will see that what you described is often described in the literature…Contrails can form clouds where there were none before…Contrails can spread into sky-filling sheets of cirrus clouds…None of this is “parroted analysis” but empirical data that has been observed again and again.
…its funny, the more research and observation I do, the more I become certain that what people think they see when they cry “chemtrail!” is really a persistent contrail…
Uncinus,
You are very capable when discussing contrail characteristics but seem to have a severe disconnect or huge mental block when it comes to the multitude of reasons the U.S. Military is modifying the atmosphere.
A good example of that is your ability to discuss cloud seeding technology while turning away from the thousands of papers detailing work on lifting the atmosphere, creating plasma fields, solving ducting issues over land (hint; metals are involved) and charging the atmosphere for many different purposes. Information on creating a ’shield’ over the United States to interfere with other countries intelligence gathering, making objects ’stealthy’ -these topics are far more involved than cloud seeding and appear to take you far outside of your comfort zone but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. These projects extend back decades and got a huge boost during the star wars push of the Reagan era. If you think that project was stopped you are very mistaken, it was simply removed from the public domain. One of the many hundreds of examples that you could research is HAARP (not the only array of it’s kind, possibly not even the most powerful) but you have repeatedly ignored how HAARP works in unison with aerosols from aircraft.
Another example of the disconnect I mention is how you say existing communications and mapping systems work perfectly. They
do not work perfectly and many papers detail this but you can’t be bothered since it doesn’t appear in any terribly outdated
book on contrails. Unfortunately these projects do relate to aerosols from aircraft and thus are very relevent to contrail science.
Another example of how you are choosing ignorance is this
Unicus wrote;
“That said, you raise a lot of points, but they don’t really stand up to scrutiny:
the reflection of radar is not necessarily based on the
size of the chaff anymore. The radar signal in this application
is reflected by the electromagnetic field generated by the metals
used. An example of smaller is better.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5619205.html”
Here is the actual detail regarding how the radar return is affected by the micro arc allowing a lighter and smaller chaff;
The point I made DOES stand up to scrutiny. So why did you choose to mis-represent my comment so severely?
…The chaff of claim 9 wherein the width of the chaff is less than ten mils so as to allow the chaff to exhibit good airfoil properties and extend the time the chaff remains airborne.
…The invention in this case comprises an improved radar chaff in which a plurality of metallic coated foils of electroconductive materials that are responsive to radio frequency energy are joined as chain links. By joining the chaff elements in this manner, as the joined chaff elements are dispersed and fall, an intermittent make and break contact is caused between the conductive surfaces of the chaff elements thereby creating microarcs of current when subjected to an electromagnetic field. The bandwidth of the microarc current spikes thus generated should be adequate to generate-out-of-band jamming and register as a false reading upon an enemy radar screen. The false radar screen reading caused by the microarc current spikes would make the chaff appear as a moving object on the enemy radar screen.
The last sentence of the above is the key. It is the microarc and not the size of the chaff.
These are but a couple of examples of why I am exiting here (you provide dozen of others btw) since my goal is to learn what is happening above our heads. Your website is an important piece of the puzzle, contrails and chemtrails can’t be easily discerned by looking and indirect sampling. They perhaps can’t be discerned at all but I have questions regarding that as the brightness of the aerosols I see is often so exceedingly brilliant. Thanks for being a good starting point in finding out the truth Uncinus, now it’s time for me to expand beyond meteorology textbooks and cloud formation. Normal contrails AND aerosol programs are both a concern. I won’t be hanging around to read your opinion of how harmless nuclear activated metals and JP-8 are. No reason to stay exists since topics beyond normal contrail formation appear to be far outside of your comfort zone. I don’t have proof that our military has advanced aircraft beyond what is in the public domain, this certainly does not mean that that advanced aircraft do not exist. I for one am certain that they do. I am also certain that aerosol deployment is a reality. Whether or not those programs (note, there are more than one) are far reaching is not known despite what SR1419 claims. I don’t have time for you contrail-ers’ faulty logic and limited capabilities to only discuss ancient public domain programs like cloud seeding.
Remember, absence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence.
If you want to fully understand aerosols, please feel free to examine the thousands of papers detailing current atmospheric intervention as metals play a key role in hundreds of applications. Unfortunately these programs are not ‘thought’ experiments’
as uncinus would for some reason like us to believe. (Really, uncinus, that was a very unfortunate example of your feet being
firmly stuck in the mud)
Keep looking for orbs, as these craft appear to interact closely with aircraft plumes that likely contain more than normal contrail exhaust. This website is but a very small piece of a much larger puzzle.
God bless,
-Bryansail
Bryan, as I said before this site is about discussing contrails, and things that look like contrails. Chaff does not look anything like a contrail, regardless of how big it is.
The 1985 patent for microarc chaff is about chains of links of 10 mil chaff wire – it’s normal chaff, just linked into chains. Microarc chaff is not by any stretch of the imagination an “aerosol”. It also does not seem to exist outside of the patent, so how do you know it’s ever been in the air? Lots of stuff gets patented, but is never actually made or used.
Again, you are insisting that SOMETHING is going on, but to see what it is, I’ve got to “examine the thousands of papers detailing current atmospheric intervention”. Why can’t you just point me at one?
Point me at ONE “aerosol program” that is large enough to be a health concern.
Just one. Any one.
There are none. You’ve just got a load of speculation.
Ok,
JP-8 and EDP,
Chaff can be deployed from jet fuel as we both know.
Aluminum and barium from fireworks are (as we both know) a public health concern as well,
although it is obvious their effects are minor, changes in fireworks chemical make up are
already underway.
Another excellent example of deflection and your limited ability to reason or respond to
some of the current atmospheric modifications which (as we both know) extend beyond
‘thought experiments’
Regards and keep looking up (into the fouled air)
-Bryansail
Uncinus,
atmospheric intervention is not speculation and I’m quite certain that you know this
Fair well,
-Bryansail
Ok, here’s one
JP-8, and no I am not optimistic that your opinion of it as a health concern will be relevent based on your
dismissal of HAARP and chaff as health concerns. This stuff is just too involved in comparison with looking
at contrail science. According to you the only weather modification is cloud seeding, pretty hilarious really
as SR1419 is so fond of saying, ‘good luck with that’
Regards,
Bryansail
JP-8 is not an aerosol program, it’s a fuel additive used by the military. My position on JP-8 is basically the same as the CDC:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts121.html
Do you disagree with anything in the CDC document above? If not, then what is your point? You don’t think that JP-8 should be used, or that JP-8 is being used to stop global warming? What?
Okay, I’ve got “limited ability to reason or respond”, but you are not giving me anything to respond to. JP8 is not a “current atmospheric modifications”. It’s a fuel additive. Give me ONE “aerosol program” or ONE “current atmospheric modification”, or, heck, even ONE “weather modification”
Just one. One thing that is large enough to be a health concern.
You’ve just got speculation. No actual programs.
BS33 wrote:
“No reason to stay exists since topics beyond normal contrail formation appear to be far outside of your comfort zone. I don’t have proof that our military has advanced aircraft beyond what is in the public domain, this certainly does not mean that that advanced aircraft do not exist. I for one am certain that they do. I am also certain that aerosol deployment is a reality. Whether or not those programs (note, there are more than one) are far reaching is not known despite what SR1419 claims. I don’t have time for you contrail-ers’ faulty logic and limited capabilities to only discuss ancient public domain programs like cloud seeding.”
I love the holier-than-thou attitude…all bluster with absolutely nothing to back it up…when doubt – insult- that is the usual logic of losing arguments on the anonymous internet.
BS33- can you show any empirical evidence…any evidence at all…that these supposed aerosol programs are in any way effecting the atmosphere??
Anything?
Your understanding of logic and the scientific process fail you.
You were so concerned about the health effects of aluminum in chaff…I showed you several studies that addressed that very concern…and you seemingly disregard the facts.
When you speculate as you do…the burden of proof IS ON YOU. Reading patents doesn’t cut it. Just saying it is so doesn’t cut it. Where is the Info on the contrails in the Gulf?
Speculate all you want on the intentions of the US Military…but how does that translate into a clandestine, global spraying operation that fills the skies with persistent contrails on a daily basis?
It doesn’t.
Chaff doesn’t spread out into sheets of cirrus clouds that last for days.
HAARP doesn’t produce persistent contrails.
“absence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence” – That is exactly what fundamentalist Christians say when trying to covert.
Run away if you must…I wouldn’t expect anything else.
Dearest Bryansail-
I appreciate your concern about the health effects of chaff- You are not alone in that…
…But what does that have to do with persistent contrails??
Surely you know that the dispersal of chaff does not result in persistent contrails.
Can you please show where Chaff is added to jet fuel?? I can’t seem to find any info regarding that and I am curious to know how jet-engines can work with 1-2 centimeter long fibers in the fuel.
There have been numerous studies of the potential effects of chaff…do they assuage your fear at all?? Or do you dismiss the studies because they do not tell you what you want to hear?
For Example:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/PHA/fallon/nas_p2.html
Uncinus
I was looking for a website that could debunk the chemtrails theory and I have found it. I had looked into this subject and found that the believers in this theory didn’t have any good evidence that it was true. I was like, thats it?, thats your proof? You must be able to do better than that!
I don’t know how people can believe something with such flimsy and wishy washy evidence for it. These people do not understand scientific methodology at all. They don’t understand that you need hard evidence, not just anecdotal or plausible evidence. The worst part however is when confronted with facts that are not really debatable, like contrails can persist for quite awhile, they go into denial mode. In other words, they can’t handle the truth, because it is too psychologically painful for them to admit that maybe, just maybe, the other person has a valid point and they might be wrong about something. They make reality what they wish it to be.
Keep up the good work! You are smart to focus the debate on the evidence and not get caught up with semantics or name calling.
To any good scientist this would be a funny website to watch, because with hundreds of posts and you constantly asking for evidence, they have basically given NO GOOD EVIDENCE as far as I can see that this chemtrail conspiracy exists. While many conspiracy theories are true, like 9/11 being an inside job, or the NWO wanting to control the world, this one is not only not true, but has an amazing lack evidence to support it.
Check out my youtube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/jackson32 to see a lot of genuine scams, conspiracies and other hidden truths.
Uncinus i really sympathise with you, and with what you are trying to do – its so very very hard to try to convince people that nothing is going on, and that a secret government is NOT trying to spray chemicals on you / take over the world.
Sometimes i just think people like to believe something is wrong with their society, maybe it makes them feel better?
Do contrails spread out depending on air pressure? Or wind movement? Does the atmosphere at the time of aircraft flying overhead have anything to do with how Contrails are dispursed or, how fast they disappear?
All i know about them is that they are NOT anything sprayed on us by evil people.
Whoever went to the lengths to create this website is a complete fool. You say you live in the willamette valley and you don’t think anything is out of the ordinary. These persistent contrails were not around the 30 years of my life and I will not believe your drivel about how oh, sometimes the weather is just conducive to contrails. Complete disinfo. Right in you own backyard is the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory which plays a huge roll in this. The mere fact that they admit to it yet will not release the ingredient list is in and of itself quite telling.
The fact of the matter is simple, these weather modification contrails are admitted by government agencies. The evidence of cloud manipulation is everywhere. So to deny that it exists is idiotic. More so, to not question these people and bring it into public debate where it belongs is foolhardy. Yes your government loves you. Trust it totally. IDIOTS.
The program is called Indirect and Semi-Indirect Aerosol Campaign. Look at the ASP website. I live in the NW and they are spraying practically daily. You can see as many as a dozen LOW(3KM) persistent contrails on any given day. And no they are NOT in any flight plan coordinates. Look at this paper here. There are dozens more out there just look for them and then tell me that they are not spraying population. http://lasp.colorado.edu/glory/meetings/2006/presentations/Day2/03-Ginoux.pdf
Currently there is no oversight and any company or person for that matter with enough money can pay these companies to spray an area. The ultimate goal of these studies is to control the weather. Samples from around the planet show large amounts of heavy metals including barium and fiberglass coated aluminum from these persistent weather modification contrails. Since the program is admitted to and spraying(polluting) or testing on American citizens is a felony then YES the people responsible for these crimes need to be brought into a courtroom of their peers. Just because the government say it is so, doesn’t make it that way. I really find it hard to believe how many people trust their government. Or better yet the fascist scientific dictatorship that has taken over our Republic.
Real quick, the burden of proof does not lie with the citizens of this nation. Our elected officials are here to do our bidding. Unfortunately these people are now considered our masters and how dare we question them. Not that it matters anyway, they will just deny it or bring up the words “conspiracy” or “nutjob”. These programs and the true contents of the spraying should be held in public view. We the People will decide, eventually.
I live in Los Angeles. I’ve been in the Willamette valley, around Medford, and I know persistent contrails are more common there. Usually on a North-South flight path, as would be expected.
You said:
But, that’s wrong. They have not been admitted. In fact they have been specifically denied. WHERE has this been admitted?
And can you tell me how you measure the height of contrails? You say they are 3KM, but how exactly do you know this? Do you have any evidence, or is this just all based on your personal estimates?
Why don’t you believe “sometimes the weather is just conducive to contrails”? That’s been scientific consensus in hundred of papers for over fifty years – back from 1921 in fact. Can you find science that says otherwise?
I’ve met many people such as yourself who create straw man arguments. There was much more content in my statements than what you chose to respond to. For you to say, “But, that’s wrong” does not make it so. There is an every growing body of evidence that is in plain sight. Have you done your research on the topic of indirect and indirect aerosol programs being conducted by DOE and HAARP.
Try this, go to the DOE website, main page, in the search engine at the top. Type in “indirect aerosol” 1st hit, Atmospheric Science Program, 6th hit, Notice 07-26 deals with atmospheric aerosols in radiative forcing of the Earth’s climate. Basically they are forcing earth to do their bidding. Making clouds more dense is a very foohardy thing to do. The planet decides these things, and as I’m sure you know, NASA released a report recently that the persistent aerosol program is exacerbating the whole “Global Warming” sham. A very narrow minded approach to earth’s climate. These are just 2 instances. If you were the “researcher” and psuedo-expert you claim to be you would already be on top of these things. Unfortunately you are a “narrow bander” as call them.
As for the altitude of planes dispensing these aerosols myself and others have documented readings and high res closeup photos of these aircraft. Evidence is also being mounted that the same plane will fly crosshatch patterns. *All normal air traffic activity* PLEASE
You see the hokum science of “climatology” does not give anyone the right to spray our atmosphere perpetually with compounds such as heavy metals. This cannot continue and it is my sincere hope that anybody who reads this will drop the “chem trail” moniker and expose these programs as persistent contrails produced by the indirect aerosol programs that are public knowledge for they are:
1) illegal-
2) detrimental to the health of every living organism on this planet
Here is one of hundereds like it
http://www.science.doe.gov/ober/berac/lunn04_05.ppt
Not to mention this is a global operation. So wake up already.
It’s not my job to convince you, if feel they pose no threat, but only a disinfo agent or someone who is truly asleep would say these don’t exist and that heavy metals and fiberglass coated aluminum raining down on the population non-stop are a good thing.
I think you misunderstand where these aerosols are coming from. The papers you link to talk about aerosols from pollution – mostly from industrial and transportation sources, but there are also many more natural sources of aerosols, such as volcanoes and forest fires.
“Radiative forcing” is a scientific term you seem to misunderstand. Here’s a definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_forcing
But basically it’s the “greenhouse effect” – more heat is coming in that is going out, so the earth is warming up. Nobody is “forcing the earth to do their bidding”.
And where they talk about an “Aerosol Program”, if you read the papers you’d see it’s not a program to spray aerosols into the atmosphere – it’s a program to measure and study the billions of tons of aerosols that are already there.
Here’s a nice simple explanation of this:
http://www.rap.ucar.edu/staff/tardif/Documents/CUprojects/ATOC5600/aerosol_properties.htm
See that? 10-20% are man made, and most of those are from “Industrial dust, Soot and Biomass burning” – the aerosols from jet engines have only a very small effect. If you were really concerned about this problem, you would focus on industrial dust and soot.
AS-
Uncinus already pointed it out…but I am so dumbfounded that I had to reply…
You said:
“Look at this paper here. There are dozens more out there just look for them and then tell me that they are not spraying population. http://lasp.colorado.edu/glory/meetings/2006/presentations/Day2/03-Ginoux.pdf”
That is proof?? The level of reading comprehension is a sincere indictment of our education system…This paper you provided says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about spraying anything. NOTHING. It deals with the “aerosols”- particulate matter already in the atmosphere…How is that in any way “proof” of a global, clandestine spraying operation of unknown origin and purpose??? How??
You said: “These persistent contrails were not around the 30 years of my life”-
This is simply untrue. Have you even researched contrail behavior?? Do the 100s of scientific papers dating back 50 years or more that clearly identify persistent contrails that spread out and cover the sky in haze mean nothing?? Were they creating disinfo 50 years ago?? Were all the scientists who peer-reviewed the papers and did further research on the topic in on it?
Why does this paper from 1970 refer to a single contrail that persists and spreads out eventually cover the entire sky??
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/098/mwr-098-10-0745.pdf
How can you still claim that persistent contrails didn’t exist 30 years ago??
…and you want to talk about fools. wow.
Hmmm…..yes, foolish. They weren’t spraying every day like they are now. Weather manipulation has been ongoing since the ’20’s. But the toys and compounds are much more complex these days. These programs have intensified over the years and it is quite possible that multiple programs could be ran simultaneously over a given area. So let’s not forget the facts. These programs are admitted. You can argue whether or not they are for our good and exactly what is going on but the fact is these programs exist. I’m gathering my own body of evidence, I suggest you do the same. The purpose of the link was so that people would look at it and realize a starting point. You fools would obviously know all this if you were into finding the truth. When NASA reports that certain weather warming campaigns are actually heating up the atmosphere then yes, these are indicators of real events.
For your review, Please, show me the proof that it doesn’t exist, fools.
[EDIT: large blocks of text were clipped from the following forum posts:]
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=21301.0
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=21301.5;wap2
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=21301.10;wap2
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=21301.15;wap2
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=21301.20;wap2
If you haven’t noticed, it’s the perfect racket, keep the population down and ill, then the pharma will make the billions. Control the weather which in turn controls the food. The US Military has said it will control the weather by 2015. So what, you don’t believe them or their minion of “criminals” who are conducting experiments on the population of this country. Oh, don’t forget the Russian’s releasing multiple statements for the US to stop the weather control experiments due to it’s disruptive behavior in their country. Research Eugenics, there is something to be said for 1000’s of admitted documents describing their Utopian world. In closing, there is also an admitted campaign to censor google searches of the above topics. Not to mention this:
http://www.tdlr.state.tx.us/weather/weathermod.htm
So type your bullshit, somebody might believe you fools.
Don’t forget to address the facts. Oh and as far as I’m concerned, you schucks are part of the problem.
Dissent is the greatest form of patriotism don’t forget it. It is your duty as an American citizen to question your government, so get busy.
Well, I just spent an hour reading this battlefield between Uncinus and the people of this planet. My mind is made up; the people have the victory. It comes down to feeling at the end of the day – the peoples messages are always truthful, Uncinus, too many times you have slyly dodged points and clung to claims of science. And now you know – you can never convince someone who relies on his heart for the truth. Goodnight, stop the experiment. Conintelpro over and out.
“r”, you can use science too.
So post my original comments, by Armed Sceptic, oh that’s right you can’t debunk it so just erase it. Weaksauce
I’m sorry, were you posting as Armed Sceptic? There’s several comments up above that were answered. Was something missing?
Feel free to post it again. Sometime things get eaten by the spam filter. Feel free to email me if you continue to have problems.
I’d appreciate it if you just use one user name, as it makes the discussions easier to follow.
Never mind, I found it in the spam can. It should show up above now. It got marked as spam as it’s so big and has so many links. Maybe try to break things down in future.
Here it is:
http://contrailscience.com/chemtrail-myths/#comment-3895
Also, no long cut and paste please – makes things very hard to read. I’m going to trim it down a little before I answer (just trimming pasted blocks of text).
Okay, your spammed post consisted simply of large blocks of text copied from prisonplanet.com. So I reduced it to links to the relevant posts.
My whole interest in the “chemtrail” theory is based around the fact that supposed “chemtrails” look and behave exactly like contrails. But all you’ve given me is some huge complicated conspiracy theory.
Do you actually have ANY EVIDENCE that “chemtrails” behave differently to contrails?
Because if you don’t, then that’s pretty much “proof that they don’t exist”.
And what makes you think that: “there is also an admitted campaign to censor google searches of the above topics. ”
Who admitted it?
And what’s with the link to the weather modification in Texas? Did anyone EVER suggest that there was no weather modification? Cloud seeding has been going on for decades, with no secrecy. Look, here’s a link to public articles written about it before 1970 – over a thousand results. So where’s the conspiracy?
Here’s another 1000 pre-1970 articles on weather modification
Lets rewind, You stated no proof existed of admitted Aerosol programs. Well the edited text I posted clearly showed that evidence many times over with the accompanying sources where the original documents can be found. HR517 (I believe) addressed this very thing, weather modification programs. Now I’m sorry if this whole “chemtrail” topic is so complicated to you. What I find fascinating is the majority of people when confronted with factual and documented information that goes outside their belief system are so quick to either deny or label that information as a “conspiracy theory”. I would refer to the above information as “conspiracy fact”. Yes it is happening and no, they will not allow it to be brought out into public debate. So admitting that weather modification exists basically blows your whole premise for this site. It’s obvious that they have been modifying the weather, no secret right, well how do you think they do that? With specific heavy metal compounds dispersed in an aerosol form. This is a documented fact. The only conspiracy here is that this info isn’t being discussed by “We the People”
10’s of millions of people around the globe are waking up to the fact their weather is being manipulated and these non-commercial planes are flying out of and below known flight paths exuding a chemical compound that NO GOVERNMENT AGENCIES ARE WILLING TO DISCUSS IN THE OPEN. Except to tell you that, yes, we are modifying the weather but no, you cannot have the details. Is it a group of nutjob scientists playing god with the weather or something more sinister? I don’t know, but I do know what I see on a daily basis.
As for my evidence that “chemtrails” behave differently than contrails, I have my own 2 eyes. If you would have spent 10 minutes reading my previously edited post you would have garnered many sources to further investigate. But then you also have the assertation that true contrails only form above 30,000 feet as they are ice crystals. Not at 6-15,000 foot mark as being documented in the Portland Metro Area. If you watch the skies around the PDX area you will see planes at low altitudes spewing huge trails that disperse over time slowing drop to the ground in armlike wisps. And you will also notice planes at the same altitude at the same time emitting NO trails whatsoever. JP4 is JP4. I will post pics I’ve gathered from just stepping outside last night at a random moment. I can tell you this. I am no expert on the science of it, but I am no idiot and I can completely believe in my own eyes and soul. But alas, this is not my opinion it is fact.
No I didn’t. You posted lots of links to actual aerosol programs, but you misunderstood what they were. They were all programs for measuring aerosols, 80% of which comes from natural sources, and the rest comes from industrial and transport pollution, and burning biomass.
Now, if you think there is a program to DELIBERATELY ADD aerosols to the atmosphere, then I’d like to see your evidence.
.
This sites premise, regarding chemtrails, is that they look and behave exactly like contrails. You’ve still not shown me any evidence otherwise.
Contails form in fairly clear skies, at above 26,000 feet.
Cloud seeding happens in, or below, existing rain clouds. It’s most often from the ground.
These are two totally different things.
Cloud seeding is done with silver iodine. There are several posts here that discuss cloud seeding.
I look forward to seeing your evidence of flights leaving trails below 15,000 feet. I’m especially interested in how you measured the altitude.
I’m still interested in this Google censorship – any details there?
If you want to post photos, email them to me (uncinus@gmail.com), or put them somewhere and post a link (keep the number of links in a post small though, to avoid spam detection).
Your a total contradiction. Your opening paragraph at the top of your home page here states:
Some people believe that the government is spraying something into the air, and this creates unsual looking contrails. They call these “chemtrails”. Now, there is no real evidence that “chemtrails” are real, but there are several myths on the internet about “chemtrails”. All these myths can very easily be shown to be false, and I’ve gathered the most popular myths here as a little time-saver for the person who has encountered “chemtrails” for the first time.
So in regards to this: Now, there is no real evidence that “chemtrails” are real, but there are several myths on the internet about “chemtrails” and this”All these myths can very easily be shown to be false”
Your backpeddling is amusing. Your statement that no real evidence that chemtrails are real is completely shattered by millions of eyewitness acounts and the above posted info. Not to mention the links below taken right over head of my house at an altitude below 10,000 ft. By my and neighbors estimates, abound 7500 ft. Scoped with various intruments with an average of 6800ft that was verified with a Newcon 7X50 LRB 4000CI. This happens 5-6 days a week and by your own assertion, it is not a normal ice contrail which, according to you, would occur above 26,000 ft. A huge body of evidence is already gathered and will continue to be gathered. You migh also be interested to know that these planes are not commercial flights and are not on any know flight paths. But consistently fly a grid like pattern over the Portland Metro area. Your denial and steadfast refusal to engage logic and facts defies all forms of reason. Unfortunately the majority of the public are in the exact same mindset as yourself or even to greater degree completely oblivious. Very detrimental to the useless eaters of this planet wouldn’t you say.
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6070/dsc01514gz4.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/566/dsc01516tk3.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9476/dsc01519uo4.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7697/dsc01515ab2.jpg
And let’s not forget your closing paragraph above:
Those myths are really the basis of the “chemtrail” conspiracy theory. There is more, of course, like the halos and sun-dogs that you sometimes see (normal atmospheric optical effects), the dark lines (shadows of varying types), the stuff on the ground (unconnected). But these things really get to the heart of 99% of the chemtrail argument. After they are dispensed with, the theory holds about as much water as alien mind-control implants.
As for something I’d like to have investigated, why don’t you check into the airport workers who have been interviewed about planes with aerosol jets being loaded on their watch.
And if you don’t believe me, why not check into some other peoples observations. Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=uqKNkagvSHU
Definitely not at your 26,000 ft mark is it?
If this science i’m Napoleone Bonaparte.
This is not serious.
I’m sorry, but if you think I’m back-peddling, I must have miscommunicated something. Can you point to where I said something different to what you quoted? If you are referring to “You stated no proof existed of admitted Aerosol programs”, then I suggest you read what I wrote again. There are lots of aerosol programs – that measure aerosols.
Actually, yes the contrail in the video is probably well above 26,000 feet. It’s just spread out by the wind shear. Your other photos all show the same kind of thing – contrails that have spread out.
Where are these interviews with airport workers?
I’m impressed you’ve got a Newcon LRB 400 CI, but unfortunately it’s impossible to measure the height of clouds with a laser rangefinder, as clouds will not reflect the beam, and instead will just scatter the light. In the trails you show, the beam will just go straight through. You might have some luck with a plane, but then the maximum range is 13,000 feet, so you’d get spurious results for anything higher.
Can you describe the other instruments you used? And the technique you use to estimate the heights of trails.
It seems like your fundamental problem here is in estimating the height of contrails. There is NOTHING in any of your photos or videos that suggests that the trails are below contrail altitude. I suggest instead you try something like taking photos of the trails AS THEY FORM, and at the same time take a photo of the PDX area map in FlightAware:
http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KPDX
(Click the small map for the large updating version)
The green planes are the ones that will leave contrails, as they are overflying PDX (blue planes are landing or taking off from PDX). The first line shows the flight number and aircraft type (like, ASA456 B738), and the second line shows the altitude in 100s of feet and the speed in knots. So 390 492 is 39,000 feet at 492 knots. The last line shows the originating and destination airport (KSEA KLAX).
You can try to use this to find the altitude of the planes flying overhead. You can then find which leave trails, and how high they were when they left a trail. Of course, no all planes info shows up on flightware, and sometimes the planes are too close to tell. But at least when you can tell, you are sure of the altitude.
Zret, feel free to weigh in with some science of your own if you feel something is lacking here.
ArmedSkeptic-
You still have not addressed the issue that the supposed “evidence” you provided- links to Aerosol study programs are all research programs to study particulate matter already in the atmosphere…and have absolutely nothing to do with spraying annything.
Can you address this gap in your logic, please.
Final reply to this. Your denial and doublespeak runs deep. So be it. The altitudes listed were of the actual planes dispersing these. Normal contrails do not visibly fall to earth. So quit acting stupid. And it doesn’t take science to know the difference between 7000ft and 26000ft. I truly feel sorry for you.
Well, if it’s so easy to do, then why can’t you demonstrate it? Why don’t you want to provide evidence to the world? You make claims, but you don’t actually provide any evidence.
Simply saying you measured the height is not enough. You could have made a mistake. You need to actually demonstrate this measurement.
At least demonstrate that you have the capability of measuring them. If you say you used the Newcon, then you can prove you’ve got one by posting a photo of the Newcon on a current newspaper. That would remove some doubt, and lend credence to your story.
Then maybe post a video of you measuring the height of planes, and correlate it with FlightAware – to demonstrate you can measure the height of planes. This again would reinforce your case.
Then post a video of you measuring the height a plane that leaves a trail that spreads out at a low altitude.
Uncinus,
Do you even have a clue how utterly rediculous you have become? I told you on the Barium Chemtrails thread that I was not going to waste any more of my time on this disinfo website, but I decided to drop back in and have a looksee.
Armed Sceptic has made some very valid arguments as have I in the past. You continue to do the same thing over and over. You call people liars, tell them that they are not seeing what they report, and provide nothing but a bunch of doubletalk in your responses. The theme of your contrail ‘theory’ website is: ‘I am uncinus, I am always right, you are always wrong no matter what the circumstances are. My links are valid evidence and yours are not’ etc… etc… etc…
The fact remains as it always has-
You never have and never will provide any evidence that proves that all of the eyewittness accounts are not what the people say they are. What you do is provide information on contrails and tell people that this is what they are seeing. You have been provided with plenty of evidence that backs up what millions of concerned people from around the globe are reporting but you always reply by saying “It looks like a normal contrail to me”. Why do people have to provide it for you anyway? If you are actually looking you would find plenty of it yourself. It does not matter how much evidence is provided, you will always say that it is not evidence. On the other hand, anything that YOU provide is always evidence. Of course it is uncinus, it’s YOUR website that YOU moderate. Therefore, you can say anything you want and edit out what you dont want.
It’s just a matter of time before it all blows up in your face and then all you have to do is ‘click’ to disapear so that you wont have to own up to your evil doing against humanity and face all of the people that you have pledged to deceive. Which brings me to my final question that I have asked so many times, but have never received a valid response to:
Why does a man who claims to be just an ordinary person that just happens to like clouds because he is an ameteur aviator, have such a compelling need to make sure that anyone who claims they have wittnessed the sprayings, is not to be believed? Even though you know nothing about these people, nor were you there with them at the time of the incident to acutally see for yourself that what they are reporting is anything other than the truth? Why have you made it your personal mission to make sure that no one believes what these concerned people of sound mind have to say?
Just answer the question. No doubletalk. No sidestepping. Just simply answer the question uncinus. I’ll bet you cant do it. Humor me anyway.
I have not made that my personal mission. This is just an interesting subject that I write about.
Exactly, I provide scientific references and old photos that explain what people are seeing.
Photos of things that look like contrails are NOT evidence of things that are not contrails. It’s quite simple really. You need to provided a photo of something that does not look like a contrail. It’s like you are showing me photos of bears and claiming it is evidence of Bigfoot. Show me a photo of something that does not look like a bear.
Uncinus, nice of you to throw the bigfoot analogy in there. Way to keep it scientific. If you think the pics I posted look like contrails you are truly delusional. Have fun being sprayed with barium salts, sulphur dioxide, aluminum coated fiberglass and who knows what the hell else.
Why don’t you research what Ken Caldeira has been babbling about for some time now. Or the current programs being carried out by the DOE’s Savannah River National Laboratory. It as to do with porous-walled glass micropsheres. Or Nobel prize winner Paul Crutzens proposal to send 747’s to dump huge quantities of sulfur dioxide particles into the stratosphere to cool down the atmosphere. Or the experiments conducted by John Gorman.
To put it lightly, you’re an epic failure.
What’s wrong with the Bigfoot analogy? People keep describing things, and scientists keep saying they are contrails.
What with all the references to geo-engineering proposals? They are PROPOSALS, and usually by individuals. There is no evidence that A) they are doing them, or B) that they would look anything like chemtrails/contrails.
Bottom line, scientists agree that what people describe as “Chemtrails” sound like contrails. Decades of science and history back this up.
Rudedog indeed-
“The fact remains as it always has”…..
…that people are completely ignorant of contrail behavior and atmospheric science….
…that people think that any contrail that doesn’t dissipate within minutes is a “chemtrail”
…that some contrails can and do persist and spread out into a haze of cirrus clouds.
…and that due to atmospheric conditions these often happen in clusters.
…and often happen before weather fronts…
…and happen as much as 40% of the time….
These are facts…observed, tested, proven, undeniable facts.
Thus, the main premise of “chemtrails” – that they persist and spread out and cover the sky in a haze…for unknown purpose…is highly suspect given the FACTS that they supposedly behave identically to the known behavior of contrails.
You can choose to ignore them if you must- but you will never be taken seriously if you do.
You can choose to attack those who disagree with you- attacking their character and questioning their motives…but that is beside the point and weakens your case.
You and ArmedSkeptic have provide not a single piece of evidence that would support your claim.
Claiming that you see unmarked planes leaving persistent trails is not evidence.
Claiming you see patterned flight paths is not evidence.
Claiming people around you are getting sick from contrails is not evidence.
Posting a picture on the internet of a contrail and claiming it is a “chemtrail” is not proof- especially when it is a known fact that contrails look identical to what is in the photo.
All of the above are at best anecdotal evidence that could be explained in a variety of ways…or at worst is pure speculative conjecture with no basis in logic or fact.
You have to do better than that if you want to be taken seriously.
ArmedSkeptic sent a bunch of links regarding Aerosol programs of the US gov’t- claiming they are proof of “chemtrails”- when, in fact, they are programs designed to study particulate matter already in the atmosphere- and of course, he had no reply to that fact.
He claimed persistent trails didn’t exist 30 years ago…when in fact they did- and the proof was provided…of course, he simply ignored it….
You- RudeDog- put so much faith in what people see- “eyewittness accounts”- when that is a notoriously weak form of evidence…eyewitness accounts are so utterly subjective – - two people see a persistent trail- one claims it is a “chemtrail”, one claims it is a persistent contrail…who is right??
When so much science is involved in any given trail- the atmospheric variable, the plane variable, the ice crystal variables….the condensation nuclei variable…so many variables that the average person is just not informed enough to make an accurate assessment of what they see….rendering their “eyewittness accounts” very suspect…
…especially when these accounts are based on pre-determined bias of the existence of “chemtrails” and viewed from several miles away…They see a plane leaving a trail and can say for certain that it is “spraying”.
…given the nature of supersaturated persistent contrails…and contrail cirrus…that is a highly dubious claim.
…especially, when it is supposedly a clandestine, global operation of unknown origin and purpose that would necessarily involved 1000s of planes and 1000s of people…with out a single word from an insider or shred of evidence….other than people on the internet claiming it is so.
Can you see why I am skeptical??
How can you read this report from 1995 and not wonder if what you are seeing in the sky perhaps not might be a persistent contrail? Are you so closed minded that you are just blind to facts, logic and rationality?
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm
…I doubt you will reply….but hopefully you will try to put your emotions aside and think a bit more about this….I do not know you and do not judge you for your beliefs…I understand that you are truly concerned…but do not let fear and ignorance get in the way of understanding.
Hey Armskeptic-
you say:
Ever heard of a Mare’s tail? Its what the cloud formation you describe (official name Cirrus Uncinus- coincidence??) has been called that for years and years…particularly by sailors- see here: (complete with sundog).
http://www.birdwatchersdigest.com/blog/uploaded_images/SunDogMaresTail-700987.JPG
Your ignorance of this is another example of fear based paranoia clouding the ability to think rationally.
If you were truly educated on the processes of contrail formation and persistence then you would know that given all the variables involved- between the plane and the atmosphere- it is completely possible for 2 planes to fly through the same space and one leave a contrail and one leave nothing.
This is not “disinfo” – this is fact.
here are some more Mare’s tails.
http://www.apoec.org.nz/gallery/mares%20tail%20clouds.jpg
“Mares tail clouds. These are often a sign that bad weather is coming!
A cloud is formed when rising air carrying moisture droplets evaporated from the sea, is cooled. The water droplets condense in the colder temperatures found at higher altitudes, and form clouds. Different cloud types are partly the result of the wind pushing the clouds around into heaps (Cumulus) or layers (Stratus), or strange exciting shapes (for example birds and dragons).
The wind is always stronger at higher altitudes. High altitude clouds are so cold that they are made of ice crystals. They are called cirrus. Often these high altitude clouds leave a trail of ice crystals which the wind twists and turns into strange wispy forms. These are called Mare’s Tails. A halo round the sun is also made up of ice crystals high in the sky. When you see a lot of this high cirrus cloud it indicates strong winds high in the sky and often means a storm is on the way. These clouds are often followed by waves of hogsback clouds (spaceship clouds) which are accompanied by strong winds, and usually soon after the rain will come.”
http://flickr.com/photos/timstone/1410113893/
or here:
http://www.sky-chaser.com/schcloud.htm
Your anecdotal “evidence” just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
Cirrus Uncinus are my favorite clouds. There’s some photos of them from 100 years ago, here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Uncinus/CloudStudies1905And1925#
Armedskeptic-
how are those photos you posted any different than the photos of contrails from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago??
Such as these:
http://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/1991-day-p46-2.jpg
http://contrailscience.com/wp-content/uploads/1991-day-p47-1.jpg
or any of the photos from this page:
http://tinyurl.com/5vtoqe
Please explain.
Well for one SR1419, no snow formed. And two, they were at 8,000ft directly over my house. So no, I’m not buying your, “you have no evidence routine”. As for ignoring your proof, well like I said 8,000ft. not 30K.
These are your facts?
“The fact remains as it always has”…..
…that people are completely ignorant of contrail behavior and atmospheric science….
oh yeah, were ignorant and your a supragenius…please
…that people think that any contrail that doesn’t dissipate within minutes is a “chemtrail”
it is admitted that weather modification contrails do not react like normal contrails
…that some contrails can and do persist and spread out into a haze of cirrus clouds.
granted, natural
…and that due to atmospheric conditions these often happen in clusters.
again, so what
…and often happen before weather fronts…
so…
…and happen as much as 40% of the time….
Where’s the proof for that stat? hmm..
These are facts…observed, tested, proven, undeniable facts.
You don’t really have any facts there. You have a belief that chemtrails do not exist.
“Ever heard of a Mare’s tail? Its what the cloud formation you describe (official name Cirrus Uncinus- coincidence??) has been called that for years and years…particularly by sailors- see here: (complete with sundog).”
Only problem with that is it came directly from a plane moments before.
Your cloud formation lesson was nice actually. It proves that you have no facts. Just assertions that other people have no clue about the weather. And your statement about all this being anecdotal goes beyond stupidity. Millions of people are activating around the world to bring this to light.
Some local “VERIFIABLE” documentation:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/03/355437.shtml
So you already admitted that cloud seeding is occurring. And we already have the data on what is being used to seed clouds. It is quite harmful to the life on this planet. For you to say it has no impact is ludicrous. We also have admittance of other ops currently in progress since 1990. Not to mention current bills directly address the topic of this website.
I find it dreadful that you 2 are blind to the fact that few families control the planet and are the ones who funded Hitler and the fact that our government has been taken over by the refugees from Germany. It’s called a shadow government and it does exist. They also happen to be the founders of eugenics and social darwinism. The practice lucifarianism. This is nothing new and is the same age old battle of good versus evil. As for me I’m not tripping. Our family has decided to make a stand in the country we love. Come what may. I still stand by my statement that you 2 potato heads are disinfo agents. The amount of evidence is compelling to say the least. I’ll post back when my undeniable research is done.
Silver Iodine is what it used to seed clouds. It does not look like the contrail photos you’ve linked to.
Your article makes a huge series of claims, but again offers no evidence of actual spraying.
I look forward to seeing your “undeniable research”
Armed Skeptic-
I said:
“…and happen as much as 40% of the time…”
To which you replied:
“Where’s the proof for that stat? hmm..”
the proof is here:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/038.htm
and here:
http://tinyurl.co.uk/e7a4
and here:
http://tinyurl.co.uk/fmlb
and here:
http://tinyurl.co.uk/aafw
Enjoy!
Also- you said “it is admitted that weather modification contrails do not react like normal contrails”
Please, do tell us how a “normal” contrail should react.
…also, you still haven’t addressed the fact that the supposed “evidence” of “spraying” in the Aerosol programs you listed were really studies of aerosols already in the atmosphere and have nothing to do with spraying anything??
…and so, now you jump from persistent contrails to the Illuminati….
Good luck with that.
ArmedSkeptic-
that “verifiable” information in that article you provided is entirely based on a false premise:
“However, at witnessing jet emissions and the difference they represent, it is easy to separate the chemical spray “clouds” from contrails. Chemical aerosol trails last for hours and may actually create overcast skies, or layer dense coverage and introduce entire storm systems, depending on the program witnessed, the amount of spraying, and any other involved technology or project plans. Remember, as one will learn in high school, that regular jet emissions are simply compressed water vapor and air swirling about, and that even if it is a cold day on which that vapor can crystallize and linger, it will not do so for hours, and, these regular emissions will not disperse into the typically-seen aerosol-caused fake cirrus cloud or uniform gray layer coverage. If regular air traffic did this, it would have been a national environmental emergency against health regulations a long time ago, and, it would require literally hundreds of normal jets to be creating regular water trails in viewable sky at any moment. ”
This is simply wrong…utterly false…and the entire article is based on this false premise.
“normal” contrails can and do persist for hours and days even….and spread out into sheets of cirrus clouds…as has been observed, studied and proven for over 50 years….
refute that.
Well since the chemtrail programs reportedly started in the 50’s, that would make sense. You guys really take the cake. There is obviously something about CURRENTLY ADMITTED PROGRAMS that you do not understand. For anyone who reads this, do your own research because ding and dong here are obviously on the payroll.
I love the denial, it suits you twits well.
So if there have been both “chemtrails” and “contrails” since the 1950s, how can you tell the difference?
And what “admitted programs”? Admitted chemtrail programs? Admitted high altitude spraying programs that look like contrails? What?
Most purveyors of the “chemtrail” myth suggest that they started about 10-12 years ago…
If they have been happening for over 50 years…then why all the cries about ” skies were not like this when I was younger” or “I do not remember persistent contrails when I was a kid” theme…
You cannot have it both ways…
Indeed, please reference a “currently admitted” spraying operation that results in persistent contrails that spread out into cirrus sheets.
???
…and in the face of logic and facts- you resort to insults…typical.
twit indeed.
This website is complete propaganda to try to protect the people that are trying to kill everyone… what a bunch of crap!
Just curious…
…if they are trying to kill “everyone”…does that include themselves?? How do they protect themselves from the deadly spray?
Let me ask you something: Why do you run your site anonymously? Why is your domain registered through DomainsByProxy ?
How about this: If you start whistleblowing, i offer to pay you FIVE TIMES as much as whatever institution in the world has led you to run this site!
So, what do you think?
You see, Sir, all of your statements made, and certainly you will explain this by saying you just act like a grown-up, are written down with such a strong lack of any emotion. And you turn out to show extensive evasive behaviour when being confronted with some more startling things, such as in the correspondence i found on just another of these pages of yours:
Some poster: ” … I came upon this just recently when I began researching information regarding Morgellons …”
You: “I try to stick to contrail science …”
I may be wrong but does this not look pretty “evasive” ?
Wonderfully you implicate the presence of SCIENCE in your doings, parallely you debunk the people who believe in the chemtrail issue, while in fact the evidence shown to prove it is of no lesser value than yours.
Also noticable is a strong amount of opinion-forcing statements – you seem to subconsciously want to tell the reader what to believe.
You asked for evidence. “One scrap of” … it. But did it occur to you, that all the evidence there is and was, has been and would just be debunked by your winker-blinker nature of thinking? There are too many people on this planet who will just not believe even what they see with their own eyes, as long as it is not “confirmed” by some major media outlet.
If i were a neutral reader, i would leave this site without considering the issue either proven nor disproven. But for sure i would consider the site itself to be some sort of disinformation campaign, for it is way too professionally run to be just a side-project of somebody who invests his personal belief and energy into topics such as chemtrails.
Closing, i must say that it is always good to question things. It is our obligation as it is our right to be and remain critical towards information out there, specifically since the days of the internet arose. If this page’s author would not have made it his personal goal to modify certain belief systems, he would have left it open for the reader and observer to form his opinion. Instead, he tries to force a prepared one on them.
Question Authority!
Chemtrails may even be a hoax, but that does not explain all the other issues this world was facing, has to face and will be facing, that always leads back to corruption, greed and mechanism – scientific, emotionless thinking and virtual concepts alike.
Your’s sincerly,
Watch, the ZEITGEIST
Well, I’m highly flattered that you think this site is “way too professionally run”, and I’d be happy if it were somehow paying the bills, but as I’ve said many times – nobody pays me to do this. It’s just a little hobby site. It’s anonymous because I value my privacy and don’t want to be posting my name and address on the internet.
I think you misunderstand me though – I’m not trying to force a belief on anyone, quite the contrary in fact. I’m trying to get people to question their beliefs, to ask if they really have enough evidence to believe that what they are seeing are something other than normal contrails.
I provide evidence that indicates that “chemtrails” are contrails, and I invite evidence to show that it is not. I also discuss what has been presented as “pro-chemtrail” evidence, and usually find errors in it (like with the barium measurements). I invite people to examine my evidence, and to find fault in that, people generally don’t take me up on it.
Consider: if you are willing to pay me five times my salary to get to my supposed puppet-masters, then does that not indicate a very strong belief in a conspiracy on your part? Could it be that you are pre-supposing things here?
Following from your exchange with “Watch” – when I proposed a scientific method to measure the content of contrails/chemtrails a few days ago (remember?) you basically implied “what is the point of doing that when all evidence points to chemtrails not existing” and then started talking about some strange algal bloom theory of your own from the back of ships! That doesn’t really tie-in with your statement above -
“I provide evidence that indicates that “chemtrails” are contrails, and I invite evidence to show that it is not.”
I must admit that a totally anonymous site is also very off putting, particularly when tied to your YouTube debunking name Epoxynous. Does it really hurt to tell people your first name? Besides, you are supporting contrails, so unless there are agents working against dis-info agents what are you worrying about?
My reasons for being anonymous are purely personal.
Let me ask you a question Nik, why do you think I came up with the “cruise-trails” theory? What purpose does it serve?
Loneliness and none.
Seriously Nik, you can’t see what the cruise-trails theory illustrates?
Seriously, no I can’t but glad you can take a joke!
Anyone can make up a theory I agree but what is happening here is different. It might be just because contrails/chemtrails are so clearly visible and therefore easy to relate to, however I think there is more to it than this.
I sincerely hope not but I have learnt so much about this world that I do not like anymore, therefore I cannot just eliminate this theory. I will continue to listen to your views and continue my own research. What I have noticed though is that the truth will always surface in the end, so time will tell.
…its always interesting to see people question uncinus’ motives, tell him he is part of the conspiracy…and rip on him for doing it anomalously…
…all the while commenting under annomous monikers themselves…
Hey Watch! why not post your name and address for us so we can know you are??
Unicinus does do an admirable job being polite, reasonable and courteous…all the while being the subject of personal attacks and insults…
Its not evasive to stick to topics that one is informed on rather than speak to that which your knowledge is not adequate…This site is about Contrails…not Morgellons…
You said: “Also noticable (sic) is a strong amount of opinion-forcing statements – you seem to subconsciously want to tell the reader what to believe.”
This is a forum…it is designed for the discussion of contrails and their behavior and as such personal opinions are bound to play a role…How is that any different then a YouTube video proclaiming “proof” of “chemtrails” ??
to me- this phrase is key: “It is our obligation as it is our right to be and remain critical towards information out there”
this is exactly why this site is needed…How many Youtube videos are there showing “proof” of “chemtrails”- how many websites are there yelling about the existence of “chemtrails”?
…and by contrast how many websites are there about contrails? or videos showing contrails??
…So many Believers of “chemtrails” who already have their minds made up and refuse to believe any other possibility….they fester amongst themselves and reinforce each other with photos of “chemtrails” and reports of “spraying” without bothering to truly think critically or objectively and instead cling to false notions and beliefs based on ignorance of the facts…saying only that it must be “disinfo” or anyone who speaks against “chemtrails” must be part of the problem…
The fact is the vast majority of “chemtrail” believers are utterly ignorant of true contrail behavior and believe that any trail that doesn’t dissipate in a few seconds or so is a “chemtrail” . That simply is not the case…not even close…
…and yet they continue to hurl insults at anyone who questions their beliefs…
What a bunch of hypocrites.
Cruisetrails right now are the equivalent of chemtrails just before the Art Bell show popularized them. You might imagine that many people have stood at the back of a cruise ship and looked at the huge white trail that it leaves, stretching out as far as the eye can see, and they might even have wondered why it lasts so long, or what it was made of.
Then maybe Art Bell or Jeff Rense does a show on cruisetrails. He notes that you don’t see these trails behind tankers or container ships. You don’t see any old photos of cruise trails – all the old ships just left nice clean V-shaped wakes. He notes the huge recent increase in sickness on-board cruise ships. Supposedly it’s “norovirus” – but why did this only just start in recent years, at the same time as people started noticing the cruisetrails?
So Art does this show, thousands of people hear it. They note that YES, they were on a cruise, they noticed the long white trail, and they were sick! Now they feel tired all the time! Then other stuff starts popping up – people find papers on government sites that discuss putting iron in the ocean to combat global warming. People note the that symptoms of iron overdose are VERY SIMILAR to the symptoms of norovirus. Two and two are put together. It all makes perfect sense.
The evidence for cruisetrails is practically as good as the evidence for chemtrails. The only difference is that the chemtrail theory has been around a bit longer, and received some publicity.
I would not be at all surprised if the cruisetrail theory catches on. You read it here first!
You know, the fact that I actually invented the cruisetrail theory just now is no obstacle to it catching on and spreading. When people point to this site, and this comment, as the origin of the theory, then people will just say this comment was preemptive disinformation, intended to discredit the anti-cruisetrail movement before it had even started. And that this paragraph is double-plus-disinformation, just trying to confuse people.
Using Universal Law 945; Protocol 343 Part 12, please confirm – Do you work for a government agency in a role of deliberately attempting to prevent human evolution to a higher state of consciousness?
Sorry to pull rank but I used to be doing a similar role to you but the Ashtar Command managed to save me and wake me up.
Unicus said>>
“I provide evidence that indicates that “chemtrails” are contrails, and I invite evidence to show that it is not. I also discuss what has been presented as “pro-chemtrail” evidence, and usually find errors in it (like with the barium measurements). I invite people to examine my evidence, and to find fault in that, people generally don’t take me up on it.”
Yep you sure do and you are part of the clan that has harrassed me to the point where I have worked hand in hand with the Russian and Chinese Militaries since 2005. Your thread about radative forcing is completely misleading. Contrails reflect 30% of incoming radation, but IR Satellite evidence points to an absorption of 30-40% of incoming solar radation. Ground surface observation from bouys and land stations have confirmed this amount as the contrails pass over the solar panels that detect wattage from the sun.
Maybe you would like to explain to the audience what happens if an artifical surface that absorbed 30-40% of the incoming solar radation between 20 and 30k feet would do the temperatures at the level of that atmosphere.
PV=nRT.
Next you need to explain what happens with that extra heat. What happens to the jet stream winds at those levels in the atmosphere. Should velocity and direction.
I have $10,000,000 your wrong about your asumptions or that you lack the Atmospheric Physics degree or mathematical skills to answer what I’ve asked you…because you know your lying game is OVER when you do.
Hi weatherman714, that sounds interesting. Can you provide some references that clarify what exactly you are talking about? You say contrails reflect 30% of radiation and absorb 30-40% (and presumably transmit 30-40%)?
My point is this. If they were ordinary Contrails they would reflect 30-40% of incoming solar radation. The one’s I’ve deemed as Chemtrails absorb 30-40% of incoming radation. My challenge to you is to calculate the net temperature increase from chemtrails say at 25,000 feet sprayed during the day time and how that would impact the winds at that level of the atmosphere both in direction and velocity.
Why don’t you just show me your calculations, and I can check them? No sense in reinventing the wheel.
And how did you arrive at the 30-40% figure?
We both know your afraid to answer my question. Why? Because the numbers you came up with are the same that I came up with and without a shadow of a doubt prove what I say is true. Which means the entire foundation for this website becomes a myth within itself and exposes the possiblity that this is nothing but a Black Psych-US Military operation to confuse average americans into believing that they are just contrails.
Speaking of Black Ops, maybe we should investigate why that Laurel Police Car license place MG 3190 state of MD, has been tailing me home from work over the past 3 days. Why when I opened my mail on yahoo today news headlines from 8/22/08 appeared on my welcome screen. Are you guys interested in my meteorological analysis of Tropical Storm Fay? All of these little silent games you guys play and I’m not suppose to notice. Unfortunately there’s a trail mile long of viruses, NSA phone calls, illegal stalking with government vehicles. I’d love to get on National TV and tell the American Public my story. Explain to them that some of the economic turmoil they are experiencing is from the US Militaries and Govt’s harrasing of one the countries brightest scientists. It would make you look like fools in the eyes of other World Powers and would destory whatever remaining honesty,integrity, and confidence that exists for the US Govt around the world.
Well, no, I’ve not done any calculations, so I don’t have any numbers. I was waiting for you to post yours so I could check them, which is a much more efficient way of working.
Please post your calculations, results, and conclusions.
Weatherman(?)-
Persistent contrails vary in depth and width a great deal- and thats not even mentioning the variability in ice crystal formation….wouldn’t those variables create a wide range of radiative properties??
Contrail radiative properties differ from plane to plane, altitude to altitude, ambient conditions to ambient conditions, nigh to day, winter to summer and so on….
Did you factor all these variables into your calculations?? Please share them…..
Nothing you say relates to the In Situ studies done, such as this:
http://tinyurl.com/3lc9ry
or this:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1834780
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/4766cm
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/4ph632
UNCUNIS:
Come on mate…what is this shit?
Now you are REALLY reaching.
In Esperance, Western Australia, we just happen to have a Weather Station IN town.
R.H with contrail activity is as low as 25-30%…UNHEARD of.
Also, by taking a whole range of data from multiple sites you can get a good indication of R.H at altitude over a wide area.
My friend, i think it’s GREAT what you have done in this collection of photo’s but looking at your CONSTANT “line” I believe you are more than just a “spontaneous” debunker.
Modern aircraft travel has been around for a long time. Even with the increase in air travel you cannot explain how it is even EXPERIENCED PILOTS are stating they NEVER saw so many heavy contrail activity days in their lives as we have today.
Whether it is simple “particulate sowing” in the upper atmosphere to reflect sunlight, the release of ??????, the release of particulates associated with HAARP type experiments or who knows what…to state so EMPHATICALLY that what you see is just “normal” makes you far more of a kook than any of us.
Not unheard of at all, in fact it happens all the time. I refer you to the link and the graph in Myth #2, above.
When say that RH is hard to measure, I’m not just making it up. Contrail scientists agree:
http://www.globe.gov/boulder2004docs/chambers_paper_contrails_2004.pdf
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/Duda_Minnis.I.JAMC.08.pdf
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/contrail_forecast/contrail_prediction.html
http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/8/18385/2008/acpd-8-18385-2008-print.pdf
Let me first say how enjoyable it has been to read this thread. (I always “save it up” for a while to get myself an exciting hour about once a month!)
In my experience, consistently and without fail, ANY chemtrailer assertion is quite definitively the reverse of the truth, and if it contains any additional detail, those details themselves normally supply an in-built rebuttal to the assertion. This I quite enjoy.
BRYANSAIL: “A fun example of the government saying a chemical is o.k. would be their treatment of the jetfuel additive JP-8. There is a great deal of double speak and deflection seen with regards to its use.”
The “there is Ethylene Dibromide in JP8″ assertion came to my attention recently. (I was puzzled because EDB used to be used in high-octane gasoline to prevent the clogging of automobile engine cylinder heads. But I can see that a small amount of chemtrailer confabulation could easily have brought this about.)
JP-8 is, of course, a jet fuel, and Bryansail was thinking of EDB. So here’s my interchange (taken from the “Who else is breathing chemtrails” thread, under “Goodbye Blue Skies” at Conspiracy Central Forums.
NIK: “JP8 jet fuel is laced with Ethylene Dibromide (EDB), a chemical pesticide banned by the EPA as a definite carcinogen and chemical toxin”.
MYSELF: “EDB was used as an anti-knock compound in petrol. In that context, harmless, unless you’ve been a technician wandering around inside a storage tank. (Been there.) It isn’t used in JP8. There’s no need for it. Pre-ignition doesn’t occur in gas turbines. In both cases, once combusted, it becomes bromine gas, which will become dilute hydrobromic acid, which will slake itself on the first base it meets (lead oxide). I know these facts, but not how to prove it to you. What does WIKI say?
WIKI:
MYSELF: “It seems to me that the last use mentioned (cooking stoves) precludes the idea that JP8 might have EDB in it. What do you think?”
Hi,
There is too much lies here… I talk about you particularly Uncinus, and i think :
a/ You are stupid
b/ You are stupid disinfo agent
Chemical spraying is a reality, a dark one. You can’t imagine the joy to see these bastards planes flying in formation at dawn covering my blue sky with this white shit…
Oh yeah, it’s normal that one day, there is no plane in the sky above my city, and the next day, there is 20 white unmarked planes flying in formation, spraying like hell. And even these “chemtrails days” i can see some plane at high altitude with no trail at all flying near a gigantic chemtrail cloud (no more spray stock in the tanker ?).
And i will not talk about the planes that do “the spray on-off”, letting a hole in the chemtrail line. You surely have an explanation lol. Or when the plane suddenly stop spraying without any logical reason.
And it’s normal that planes fly at few meters from others, crossing etc, it’s not dangerous, and if you go to holydays and you see another plane flying 20 meters of yours, you’ll just think that’s usual.
I’ve bought expensive things just to watch them closely, and it confirms what i thought. They are not commercial planes.
So fuck you dear disinfo agent.
JohnConnor, you might want to consider just how much air traffic you would expect on a daily basis over your city, including international flights. They are just a LOT harder to see when they don’t leave contrails, but they are still there.
As for “20 white unmarked planes flying in formation”, that sounds very interesting, and I’d like to see a photo or video of it. How many times has that happened?
Well, Having read all of the above I think it is extremely strange how a normal person (as in me) would dedicate so much of their time to debunking chemtrails. but they they do say fact is stranger than fiction .Its also very strange that they have so much information on the matter,(science) but lets face it science changes over time so what was believe once is not now etc. plus generally money funds science and that means its not always directed for the common good as seen in pharms industry.
Bottom line is whether we are being sprayed with jet fuel, pest control chemicals etc it is not right!! and therefor we shall not support it or the people that do it. We are not daft – human kind is hmmm KIND, sadly money and power do not breed KINDNESS, as we all know, so its very clear that whatever they are spraying its not for the common good. But then nothing much related to our society, money or power is for the common good. its not rocket science its called common sense.
I know food is contaminated, water is contaminated so give me one good reason why the sky would not be contaminated……….. the science is not what matters ( unless of course your world is ruled by science -mine is rulled by all the things related tobeing a human being that science cant explain) its the whole picture that people like me are begining to see. Its good to see your scientific view however but it makes me worry that by focusing so much detail we might actually miss whats really going on!!!!!
Sarah, it does not take much time. Far less than, say, watching General Hospital which millions of people do. You don’t think they are strange do you?
The problem is that there no evidence of any deliberate spraying. Contrails are just the frozen water from jet exhaust, as seen in this 1944 film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfOrez6q7WM
Sarah King:
Breathtaking.
Don’t look at the details, accept the ruling of your life ONLY by the personal explanations of others or yourself, and you begin to see – paranoia, apophenia (thanks, Uncinus), conspiracy, and murder.
Meanwhile you libel and slander innocents, and distract from scientific research into respiratory diseases, listing just two of the ways you are doing harm.
Seeing as Science IS the study of “what’s really going on”, how can you possibly HIT “what’s really going on”?
Bravo. I applaud your patience in continuing to respond to chemtrail conspiracy believers in a logical and gentle manner. I would like to offer my personal observations.
While flying throughout the world as a US Navy pilot for over 20 years, I have seen many contrails of all shapes and sizes and have been totally satisfied with the meteorological explanation that they are primarily frozen water particles. I have always been amazed that anyone could actually believe that they were something else.
Yes, I have seen many at the same time, crisscrossing the sky at different altitudes and in different widths. I watched them originate from the engine exhaust and disperse as the upper level winds spread them throughout the layer into a cirrus cloud appearance. I have never seen anything which I could interpret as a spraying or chem trail dispersion operation in over 4500 hundred hours of flight time.
I believe that participating in an elementary class in meteorology would go a long way to educating many of your dissenters. There they would learn that air is a fluid and that temperature, pressure, humidity and winds aloft change dramatically with altitude. Each layer can have significantly different conditions, some of which are conducive to the production of contrails (condensation trails) and some not.
I have refueled at most military bases but I have never seen any pumping equipment (other than fuel pits, see JazzRoc comments above regarding JP-5 and JP-8) which would be capable of moving the amount of material which must be required to logistically support this huge (and secretly funded and supplied) effort. Nor, have I have never seen any of the ‘white sprayer planes’ at any base which I visited.
Can you imagine how many personnel a secret, nationwide (or is worldwide?) chemical spraying operation would entail? Do your dissenters really believe that, given more than a handful of these personnel, that no one has ever broken the ’secret security’ and spoke to a responsible reporter or congressional leader about this ’secret operation’ because they had health concerns for their relatives upon whom this chemical application was being rained? Do you really thing that military/governmental security is really that tight?
Do your dissenters really believe that there is no financial oversight in the military and federal government where someone (e.g., GAO) would notice the huge costs associated with this operation and question it’s purpose?
Thank you for providing a basis for truth in this paranoid discussion area. I will bookmark it and refer others to it when it the ‘chem trail’ issue comes up in conversation.
I now await the diatribe from the opposition.
Thank for you comments,the good thing about this website is it encourages you to research further and its very interesting its good to read both sides.
Perhaps its not something such as “killing people” but still its clear that we do not have the whole picture and it may harm many, most artifical things do.
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/shieldproject.html
Sarah, “artificial” things are not automatically by their nature harmful. Consider that modern science and medicine is responsible for a huge extension in lifespan, and a huge expansion of the population. Human life is sustained on this planet by highly artificial means.
Contrails are artificial. They are the frozen water vapor from aircraft exhaust. But their harm seems limited to very minor weather changes (uncertain exactly what though), an increase in come types of cloud cover, and the normal pollution inherent in burning fossil fuels.
Remove infant mortality and we are living an average of 10 years less. More idiotic disinfo.
@ Vic,
Come on out to PDX and watch the line abreast formations 3 and 4 wide 1/2 a klick apart 3500m covering the sky 6 days a week. They give them Sunday off though. All on NO REPORTED FLIGHT PATHS. LET ALONE HISTORIC ONES. Contrails that fall to the ground in wisps. Total joke to state that programs are no in place.
What do you mean “we are living an average of 10 years less” – how did you come up with that figure?
Do you have a photo or video of this PDX activity? And how did you measure the altitude?
AS-
“wisps”…sounds like falling ice crystals…mare’s tails…
if they fall to the ground then it should be easy to get a sample.
Anyone who is observant and has been watching the skies know that “chemtrails” are REAL…I don’t care what you say, I observe them with my own eyes nearly daily….Do normal commercial planes make 90 degree climbs and dives in the middle of the sky? Are commercial planes all white or all red with no windows? Do Commercial planes fly right next to each other, or on top of each other…and I don’t care about the “altitude”, planes are not supposed to be within miles of each other. Don’t try to hide from what your eyes are telling you people…this site is a bunch of government Baloney!
Hi NotaFool, I think you are misinterpreting what you are seeing. Planes can fly very close if they have vertical separation of just 1000 feet. So it looks like they are right next to each other.
And most planes DO look white from the ground, and no, you can’t see their windows from the ground – especially when they are 30,000 feet.
Maybe you have some photos or video that show what you are seeing. I’m not sure what you mean by “90 degree climbs and dives in the middle of the sky”, but it sounds a bit odd.
NotaFool-
How can you tell if a plane has windows from 3-10 (or more) miles away?
…and how exactly is a plane’s flight path or behavior evidence that contrails that persist and spread out are really “chemtrails” being deliberately sprayed??
I can’t believe this blog is still going.
The Chemtrails meanwhile.. are getting to be more and thicker, and more brazen. I watch them daily.. in formation.. messing up our beutiful blue skies. We had samples analyzed.. samples I wiped off my car in the morning. Aluminum and Barium are among the many Chems in that sample. What happens to our watersupply and the crops?
The bees are already dead… and more and more people are coming down w. chronic bronchial inflammations.
I finally got an answer from the FAA hotline.. please everyone.. write to them too, who knows, it might help.
In short.. they told me.. it’s CONTRAILS ! I wrote back and gave them more details about what I observe daily.. no answer yet.
Please help all of us and write them… they do answer.. even though.. not w. the truth. But if we keep trying, maybe something good will come of it ?!
Hi Addie. I think the FAA is correct there – what you are seeing are actually contrails – of at least something that looks and behaves exactly like a contrail.
A sample you wipe off your car is not a sample of a contrail – it’s a sample of airborne dust and pollution.
Did you actually have that analyzed? Can you post the exact results?
hi Unic, no, he won’t hand it to me to put online.. sorry.
They are not mares tails.
I KNOW, I KNOW…….I’M MISINTERPRETING WHAT I’M SEEING!! STFU!
COME ON OUT TO PDX. SEE FOR YOURSELF SINCE THAT IS ALL YOU BELIEVE….OH WAIT….YOU DON’T EVEN BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES……BECAUSE CHEMTRAILS IN YOUR MIND DO-NOT-EXIST.
THERE IS A HEAVY ONGOING CAMPAIGN. I’M AMASSING 1,000′S OF ZOOM PHOTOS. THESE ARE NOT COMMERCIAL PLANES AND THEY ARE DELIBERATELY SPRAYING AT 10-16K.
.5 TO 1.5K APART. THE TRAILS SPREAD OUT OVER 40% OF THE HORIZON OFTEN. THIS IS NOT NORMAL. I REPEAT, THEY ARE EXTREMELY LOW. THE FLIGHT PATHS ARE NOT ON ANY KNOWN PUBLISHED PATHS. OVER PDX THEY HAVE UP 8 PLANES AT ANY GIVEN TIME FLYING S-N. I WILL NOT LET THIS REST. THE GOVERNMENT ALREADY ADMITS THE CAMPAIGN. 20,000 FLIGHTS DAILY. JUST BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT DOES NOT MAKE A MYTH.
Here is one of many admitted campaigns: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
Could you post some of those photos, so I can see what you mean?
The article you link is about low altitude tests of how biological agents might invisibly spread in the wind. The tests were carried out by the UK government between 1940 and 1979 . That does not resemble “chemtrails”.
Addie-
is wiping the hood of your car really a scientific method for collecting samples of contrails?
Where is the logic?
Do you have any idea about fall rates dispersed 3-6 miles above you??
Whatever.
That is actually about the government actually spraying poison on the population of England for 40 some odd years. So NO, it’s not a hard stretch to say that they are STILL SPRAYING POISON ON THE POPULATION regardless of what they say the reason is. That is one of 100’s of reports around the globe. England, Austrailia, Germany, USA, Canada.
I guess this is aimed at me so………..It’s actually 2-3 miles overhead. And the simple fact is normal contrails WILL NOT LAST 24Hours and create a massive haze that slowly falls to the ground. Your entire argument is ludicrous.
They sprayed what they thought were harmless agents. There were about ten tests a year. The tests were at low altitudes, and mostly NOT from planes. The spray was invisible. See:
http://www.nr23.net/govt/spray.htm
Now how exactly does that translate to long white trails at 30,000 fee that look and behave exactly like contrails?
Contrails generally form above 26,000 feet. That’s five miles.
Contrails don’t last for 24 hours. They can last for several hours, but after a while they are indistinguishable from
natural cirrus clouds. They don’t fall to the ground. Probably you are just seeing hazy weather condition as a front approaches, and thinking that the contrail caused all the cloud you are seeing. Really it’s just the weather.
Why are there no videos or photos of this this “massive haze that slowly falls to the ground”?
” Whatever ” the most defensive word on the english language !
I had my own personal reasons to do a little ” scientific” testing of the junk on my car.
This might not be good enough for you, but it is for me.. got this?
Whateva………
There are excellent and very scientific websites, that prove that those 20 000 airplanes in the air daily.. are spraying aerosoles.
Besides the fact that I protest that the air I breathe is fiddled with by ” whoeva ” I protest the fact.. that the taxpayer ( you and I ) are paying for it..
Uncinus,
Your an idiot. Truly, an idiot. I am telling you that these are what we are documenting over PDX. Try to keep up.
IT’s real simple. Chemtrails dispersed 3-5 KILOMETERS overhead. (Well below your 26,000ft threshold) That last for over 16hours and SLOWLY FALL TO THE GROUND. Quit being such a mental midget and look into this. I get it, I’m just seeing weather. You are a tool. Oh, and don’t worry………time lapsed footage will be forth coming. More than likely in HD. Unfortunately Winter is setting in but I am sure we will get some clear days. The campaign is so obvious it’s pathetic. As for you, I will repeat myself. Just because you say something doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it fact.
If you believe the government had no clue that agents that it sprayed overhead weren’t toxic, you have reached a new low for humanity. This entire site is about redirection. Redirection from the facts.
Anonymous from PDX, could you explain how you measure the height of the trails you are seeing? I think you might be mistaking regular high altitude trails for something lower.
Anonymous..
Please ” slow down” and get your spelling so that I can read it ..ok?
Because I am with you and I care a lot about what u are saying.
We had the “Chems” so bad today.. it’s unreal. A formation of 4 planes, ” played ” over us.. sprayong.. circling it.. crossing it.. until there was no blue left. Anytime, something is secret, you know.. it’s dangerous. None of my letters to media, the green people.. Senate and Congress.. yes.. even Obma.. have been answered. Good old Amerian stonewalling, O, how I hate it.
I want to move, get out of here. Am checking w. my german family, if it’s clear over there.. they said.. yes, so far ! Am serious, I am getting out of here. This country went from Heaven to Hell.
Since I am an immigrant, I know what I am speaking of.
Hi all,
To those that disagree with Uncinus at least have the decency to be polite.
I’m still looking up and trying to locate data on the use of barium and aluminum
during desert storm. A word of caution for anyone trying to find the info. on the
internet some of the links are malicious ( I refuse to speculate why-lol )
What is needed (because the science of high levels of aluminum, barium and
titanium at ground level is not proof) is for someone who has access to a
spectrometer to point it at a trail. If I were able to perform this test or have input
I would take aim at the jets I see but can’t hear flying from USAF bases.
Uncinus, I have spent many hours looking at old photos (thanks for yours and
link) and old movies. Doing this is leading me to believe that contrail formation
and characteristics are different today than in previous decades. I am curious
what you think.
Oh, and thanks in advance to the person that does the spectrometer work up
as I think the results will be very interesting. I don’t rule out contacting those
with access to this specialized equipment myself though.
Regards,
Bryan
Spectrometers have been used to study contrails before. Just google for contrails+spectrometer
http://www.google.com/search?q=contrails%2Bspectrometer
Contrails have changed on average, mostly there just more of them, but also engine design has changed, with modern high bypass engines burning cleaner, and with a higher “contrail factor”.
Bryan, this is what I like about this blog, everyone voices their opinions and observations.. yet most of them are polite about it, this is why I hang around.
I am no scientist.. I just know that what I see is not only not” normal” yet scary. There is ” stuff” coming from those planes , that covers the sky, and I mean COVERS ! Not one day goes by.. w.out those planes leaving those frightening trails.
Just of late.. my german family is e-mailing me, that they are observing the same thing.. just not as much as we have it here in Southern Cal. ( Maybe they don’t want me to come back home ;o) kidding.. yes.. they have it too. So, I have to assume this secret phenomena.. is sinister and surely nothing good. I am scared.
And I hate the secrecy that is surrounding it. Bush is moving to Dallas.. are we to assume then.. that Dallas is going to be Chemtrail-free ? Well.. maybe I am going to move there then… sorry.. got to rambling here..
Hi Addie,
This is the best forum I have ever seen on contrails. It starts with the understanding that contrails and ‘chemtrails’ behave similarly
which is ignored by almost all of the most known chemtrail theorists. Scott Stevens, Will Thomas, Carnicom all shy away from
the overwhelming evidence of contrail persistence which weakens their chemtrail theories tremendously. It’s as if they don’t
need to pursue better evidence since they say you can tell just by looking. I think we need concrete proof of metals through
contrail sampling or spectrometry results. By the way, Uncinus I did check google. Which was interesting reading. Saw your
website come up twice within the first couple of page searches as well.
The problem with posting to Uncinus is that he wants hard evidence from the scientific community which is Government funded.
So we can’t go beyond cloud seeding technology discussions because the more advanced weather modification does not have
publicly available information. Papers on polymer airborne dispersal or other weather modifications are not available for public consumption. Uncinus seems to have a lot of faith that the Government will do the right thing and that all their work is just
think tank and thought experiment stuff, but there is surely more advanced defense applications than radar chaff and cloud seeding which interact with weather systems. I’m interested in these and their possible relationship to contrails.
Uncinus and Addie, today there are a lot of persistent contrails in the skies above Southern California. Take a look at the cloud
cover over so. Cal. between about 330 pm until a couple of hours after sunset. What I see rather often is that late afternoon
contrail persistence begins to dissapear as the sun goes down. Often the clouds that form from contrails begin to dissipate
around the time the sun goes down. It is as if the trails require energy from the sun to persist. It makes me wonder about the
remarks from NASA that persistent contrails trap the heat at night leading to higher night time temperatures. At least in So. Cal.
the contrails often do not persist long after sunset which means the heat is not trapped by artificial cloud formation.
Regards,
Bryan
Or maybe it’s just that a lot fewer planes fly at night?
This paper has some interesting statistics on the frequency of persistent contrails (called PCs in the paper)
http://enso.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/SFCOBS.GRL.ss.pdf
Brian.. our skies today.. from morning til now, 15:30
Have been covered, with: Wide bands.. veil-like appearances.. grids, plumes.. criss crossing patterns and just now.. little puffy ones like cottonballs. All not ” natural” stuff.
I watched 2 times.. when 2 planes ” created it”.. this was hours ago.. it’s still there.. only much wider.. and it has moved toward east, but still visible. Sorry I can not express myself scientifically.. since I am not one of them.
Just know, that my eyes are not fooling me, and all I can say is: I wish I were wrong.. with what I am thinking !
If it weren’t for this ” stuff” which are NOT clouds nor is it contrails because not even we have that much airtraffic…. we would have had clear blue skies today.. but as it is……. n .m .the word that just came to mind..
No , Uncinus.. there are just as many chemtrails at night, as there are during the day. I have seen formations of planes ” blessing ” us with their ” whateva..” smack in the middle of night. There was good moonlight, so I saw it clearly.
Hi,
I’m about 35 miles east of Los Angeles and I watched the sky become less overcast tonight. In the case of my observation tonight
it was really rather amazing because before sunset the sky was overcast to such a degree that I could not make out contrails, just
clouds. I could also not see any of the higher elevations of the San Bernardino mountains. As sunset approached I thought to myself that I definitely won’t see night clearing effect today. Then I did see it. I actually saw a lot of clearing of the skies to the point where the sun became visible just before sunset and the mountain range clouds just
evaporated. The moon was visible in a portion of the sky where just a couple of hours before it was completely socked in by clouds.
Good link Uncinus but what I saw tonight was a great deal of cloud abatement. It was a lifting and dissipation of an amazing amount of cloud cover which began before sunset and continued after dark. I think there may still be contrails above me but the sky is mostly clear now and has been since very shortly after sunset.
The view of cloud dissipation is not really evident in this video, but it is a pretty cool time lapse located in Big Bear, Ca.
http://www.socalmountains.com/timelapse/timelapse.php
Peace,
Bryan
Jazzrock, #3 on your website is most definitely wrong, it is really, really wrong and you should change it.
If you’d like I can post the scientific papers which show it to be wrong (there are many)
If you want your website to be credible you really need to change that one.
(His website is linked in the left column as, Twenty Things)
Technically #10 is wrong as well, but there is at least is a bit of truth to it, you can probably slide by with it.
#17 is wrong actually, only a small increase in cloud cover is necessary ( we know that contrails today are
causing changes )
#20 is goofy and should probably be changed. Observation is highbrow stuff and integral to all scientific method.
Interpretation is another matter entirely of course.
Other than that not too bad, the tone is rather harsh of course.
Peace,
Bryan
Perhaps you should comment about that on his web site, rather than here.
http://hubpages.com/hub/To-Chemtrailers-Twenty-Things-You-Dont-Know
Obama started a website.. where you can voice concerns etc. It Is :
CHANGE.GOV
I wrote twice already, complaining about those Chems in our skies.. and asked for clarification. Not sure I will get a reply, but at least, no one can say, I did not try.
Maybe everyone should go to that site.. to voice this concern.
Today again.. our skies were not cloudy or contrailed.. yet full of this white stuff…. that spread and spread, and I talked to someone who is friends w. a military person, who told her.. there are planes.. being filled with Chems… to fly and spread them…
She said, he could not tell her details, that it is ” secret” nice.. huh? This just happened to me 1/2 hour ago, at the UPS store…
Addie, you know what “wind-up” means, don’t you?
Thanx a lot Ross.. I know what wind-up means.. but not in connection w. what I wrote… maybe you would care to explain?
Check any meteorology book, or WIKI, or Britannica, and you’ll find it to be really, really, right. Check out Quasi-biennial Oscillation…
Seeing as the tropopause (and its separation of the troposphere from the stratosphere) blows your “musings” to smithereens, it isn’t surprising that you say what you must.
I wouldn’t give you tuppence for YOUR “reference material”.
Perhaps someone has already addressed this but there are quite a few comments here. My question is simple as there are many loopholes in other questions i might have that make it easy to explain away and while overall it paints an obvious picture that something is going on and that this is a disinformation site or someone who has undying trust in government funded science and investigations. My question, and i have seen this many times with my own eyes, over san diego or in the middle of nowhere WY. —————– —————– ————– ———————————————————– ———————- ——-
or perhaps =================== ==================== ======= ============ =============== ===================== ==================== ============== ============
I just assume they are gliding to save fuel.
It’s been addressed, see:
http://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
Addie:
I suspect that person you spoke to in the UPS store (with the “military friend”) was winding you up.
Ross, whoever you are : Your being cynical, does neither contribute nor take away, from the discussions that happen here.
Most of us are seriously discussing the subject of chemtrails.. versas con -trails, and we have had an interesting time of it.
As for your empty comments, I will no longer read them.. they are useless. Maybe you can find another site where you would be happier.
To anyone that cares:
There are those who are content with believing that all of the questionable activities that are obscurring our once blue skies are nothing more than contrails because uncinus says so. He will even provide you with a link to an old photo or some NASA document as his evidence to back up his claim. None of which has any credibility as proof that what people are reporting are just contrails. Here is some literature to research for the people that are still capable of thinking for themselves. These are actual documents that can be found if you choose to read them in further detail. Be careful, you run the risk of being labeled a ‘conspiracy theorist’ or some kind of nut job. Being labeled deters some people from admitting the obvious truth. Others simply can not accept it because the reality of it is absolutely horrifying.
GEOENGINEERING: A CLIMATE CHANGE MANHATTAN PROJECT
Stanford Environmental Law Journal January, 1998
Here are a few excerpts. Keep in mind that this document was created 10 years ago.
- while the deployment phase of geoengineering may take less time to have an effect than preventive regulation, the initial research should begin without delay. “Phase One” must be incurred today.
- distributing enough particulate matter to equal Mount Pinatubo’s twenty million tons of dust may be done–one proposal suggests–simply by modifying ordinary commercial airplanes to fly dirtier.
- Geoengineering, even if it were to carry a higher immediate price tag, would carry lower overall political-economic costs than legislative solutions because the costs are relatively minor to the distributionally advantaged actors. In terms of political economy, playing well on Wall Street is a significant asset.
- compared with reducing fossil fuel use, geoengineering requires very little commitment from “ordinary people.” To the extent that this reduced burden of social costs translates into ease of implementation, geoengineering is more likely to succeed in the long term than climate change regulation.
- Pursuing geoengineering as a policy thus avoids many of the “complexity” traps associated with regulation. From a political point of view, a geoengineering plan is far simpler to implement than trying to regulate more than five billion carbon dioxide emitters.
- The costs of coping with dead forests and shifting agricultural zones are not scare tactics, but serious concerns that may outweigh eco-aesthetic (or even religious) reservations about a man-made sky.
- We are not cutting off our nose to spite our face; we are performing corrective plastic surgery.
- Sleight-of-hand in service of the environment is often the only way to operate–and it is how many people accomplish good things.
- A Climate Change Manhattan Project to research, develop, and deploy a workable geoengineering program is the policy option that is best politically, least invasive socially, and most efficient economically–at least in the meantime.
- we need more than a global Marshall Plan of incentives and reductions to avert potentially disastrous climatic change. We need a Manhattan Project.
- Stephen Schneider has argued for just such a treaty, given the potential of localized climate modification as “an overt or clandestine weapon.”
Another good read:
The Science of “Air Pharmacology” or “Chemtrails”
By: Jim Phelps Copyright 2005
Jim Phelps is a former employee of the DOE at Oak Ridge National Lab. He invented the concepts of “Global Systems Engineering”
If you have ever wondered about chemtrails; What they are, How they work, Who designed them, or Who is responsible then it is all right here in these pages for all to see.
In “Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming: Mitigation, Adaptation, and the Science Bases conclusion”, the N.A.S. found that the most effective
global warming mitigation turned out to be the spraying of reflective aerosol compounds into the atmosphere utilizing commercial, military and private aircraft. This preferred mitigation method is designed to create a global atmospheric shield which would increase the planet’s albedo (reflectivity) using aerosol compounds of aluminum and barium oxides, and to introduce ozone generating chemicals into the atmosphere.
Boeing Aircraft received an enormous initial order from the Pentagon for 100 Boeing 767 tanker planes, to begin replacing the Air Force’s aging fleet of KC-135s, the most commonly seen chemtrail spray plane. The final order will exceed 500 planes. There has been no mention of the usage of these aircraft.
Geoengineering is being carried out on Earth on a staggering scale, without the impediment of environmental laws or regulatory constraints. This grand experiment is being conducted in full view, while being concealed in plain sight. Debunkers have been deployed to discredit any mention of it and
science is being manipulated by agencies such as NASA and NOAA to decieve people into supporting the contrail “theory”.
ABC News’ Bill Blakemore filed this report for “World News Tonight.”
Copyright © 2006 ABC News Internet Ventures
ABC News: Top NASA Scientist Says He’s Being Silenced on Global Warming
Still not convinced? Check back later, I have alot more if your brain can handle it.
Alright Addie, this is serious.
All “chemtrail” discussion is predicated on a statement that goes something like this, “Normal contrails dissipate quickly, but these last for hours, so they must be something else.”
The notion that contrails always dissipate in a short time is false. In fact, contrails formed in ice-saturated conditions do NOT dissipate in a short time, but will persist for a few hours and sometimes a lot longer.
The water vapor will condense (forming a contrail) if the mixture of jet exhaust gases becomes saturated with respect to water. If the temperature is below the crystal homogeneous nucleation temperature (−42 °C), as it usually is when contrails form, the condensed water droplets freeze. This occurs almost immediately after the droplets have condensed. So contrails are ice clouds.
Ice clouds, including contrails, cannot dissipate (evaporate) in ice-saturated conditions; that is when the relative humidity with respect to ice is greater than 100%.
A word or two about condensation nuclei. When air becomes water-saturated, the excess water vapor condenses to form water droplet cloud because there are plenty of condensation nuclei in the air – aerosols. These are composed of volcanic ash, smoke, dust, etc. None of these are freezing nuclei; and there are very few freezing nuclei aerosols in the atmosphere. This is why there can be large areas in the upper troposphere, and though considerable depth, that are ice-saturated and free of ice cloud.
Everything is observed of these long lasting contrails (called “chemtrails” by some) can be explained in terms of the air routes that jets travel, translation by the wind, spreading by wind-shear, the inhomogeneity of humidity, change of temperature with altitude, and so on. All of this has been presented and discussed at length on this site by Uncinus and others, and on other sites by even more others, and on the sites of the academic and research community.
Here is some Contrail FAQ reproduced here from another web site without permission. I am sure the original author won’t mind.
Contrails – FAQ
Q: What is the deal with contrails?
A: When the air up there is cold enough, the water vapor in the exhaust from jet engines will form contrails. The water vapor condenses several meters after leaving the engine, then almost immediately freezes.
Q: Are there certain weather conditions for the formation of contrails?
A: The critical temperature depends mostly on the altitude (actually, the pressure at the altitude the jet is flying), and to a lesser extent on the amount of water vapour already present there (actually, the relative humidity).
Q: I see some contrails that last for hours. What about them?
A: If in addition, if there is enough moisture that the air is supersaturated with respect to ice, the contrails will be persistent. Contrails are ice clouds – cirrus.
Q: Why to they spread sometimes to cover large parts of the sky?
A: Once formed, persistent contrails will behave like any other cirrus cloud. They will drift on the wind, spread out, and sometimes contort into weird and wonderful shapes. Wind shear causes the spreading.
Q: What are those hangy things?
A: There are transient effects sometimes; pendules, pulses, puffs, and so on, caused by various things going on in the turbulent (but somewhat structured) wake of the jet.
Q: Is there a purpose for them? Why?
A: Contrails are not intentional; there is no purpose. They form as a consequence of running a jet engine in the upper troposphere. That’s where the jets fly – 6 to 7 miles up.
Q: Are they natural?
A: Contrails are not natural; they are artificial. There is no natural process that injects water vapor in to the environment in long lines 6 miles up. They look weird. However, the thermodynamical processes are natural and are due to the properties of water substance at low temperatures.
Q: What are the implications for weather and climate?
A: Contrails may contribute to additional cirrus cloud cover, and atmospheric scientists at many research organizations are looking into the implications for regional and global climate.
Q: Sometimes I see some optical effects. What about them?
A: There are lots of optical effects. Shadows when they are fresh and compact; halos, sun dogs and all the other opticals you normally get with cirrus and ice cloud when they have spread out some. And shadows.
If any of this needs clarification Addie, please ask Uncinus or myself. I will be happy to answer, and I am sure Uncinus will be as well.
rude dog, I care.. keep it coming please !
Can you do me a big favor, can you put a ” bottomline” on it all.. as to what it’s purpose is.. and how it is possible, that it is in plain sight, and people stare at it.. and talk about it, and ” they” get away w. it anyway ? Blows my mind. Also, English is not my 1. language and I have trouble understanding what you typed. It’s meaning escapes me, I do not understand ” formal’ or as I call it” lawyer-English ” because I never learned it. So, just for dummie me please, sum it up a bit, and explain in simple language.. ok? Today again.. they criss-crossed and circled until the skies looked like a canvas w. kid’s fingerpainting on it. Just terrifying ! We had much rain, and when the skies cleared.. there they were, cirss crossing the skies, they are working on it night an day around here, do you think, it killed our bees? And what does it do to the agrarculture ? I don’t care being called a ” conspiracy-freak “, because the truth is more important to me, than what someone might think of me !
Thank you..
Everything that is observed of these long lasting contrails (called “chemtrails” by some) can be explained in terms of
the air routes that jets travel,
translation by the wind,
spreading by wind-shear,
the inhomogeneity of humidity,
change of temperature with altitude,
and so on.
All of this has been presented and discussed at length on this site by Uncinus and others, and on other sites by even more others, and on the sites of the academic and research community.
Ross says:
Why Ross? Because you say so? Where is your proof? What makes your interpretation more credible than the testimony of the actual wittness to the event? Were you there? What motive do you have to automatically attempt to persuade the public that the testimonies of concerned citizens around the world are false? How could you possibly know more about the event than the person that actually wittnessed it and was physically affected by it? You must have some hidden agenda in order to be so determined to discredit any account of chemtrail activity, or you have no compassion for your fellow humans. Your attempts to debunk have no more credibility to them than the the items being presented to you. There is no ’science’ in your explainations, just a bunch of references to irrelevent information that has nothing to do with what the people are experiencing everywhere within the last 10 years. The visual evidence is overwhelming enough to anyone that is not blind or brain dead. The fact that you and uncinus and many others on this website are so determined to debunk any information that is presented, is more the reason to be concerned.
Addie,
I will post more in the near future when I have more time. Keep checking in. In the meantime you can read some of my posts on the “http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/” link or the “http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/” link
When Ross says: “Everything that is observed of these long lasting contrails (called “chemtrails” by some) can be explained in terms of blah blah blah……,”
he does not provide any evidence that what he says is actually what is happening. He simply reacts with statements full of suggestive alternatives and tries to include some sort of scientific data with it in an attempt to mislead people and persuade them to believe him. I know what I am seeing and I believe you do also. Believe your own eyes and your own mind and not what some unknown debunker says to believe. Stay posted in the near future. rudedog.
See, there’s a flaw in your argument, because quite clearly the evidence is NOT overwhelming. Nobody cares about contrails. Ask people on the street what they think is going on, and they will look at you bemusedly. They have not noticed anything unusual. Even if you ask them the most leading questions like “do you knwo what they are spraying up there”, and point to the contrails, then you’ll not elicit any concern.
So if it’s so obvious, they why does nobody notice it? Why don’t meteorologists notice it? Why don’t weatherman notice it? Why don’t scientists notice it? Why don’t environmental groups notice it? Why don’t other countries notice it?
Maybe because it’s just a bunch of contrails.
Ross,
Some people are trying to examine the contrail issue along the lines of projects such as the Military’s project AIM
and along the lines of terms such as RFMP, VTRPE, DUCTING, HAARP, ATMOSPHERIC RF DUCT, and barium salts.
Difficult to do, as these projects are largely classified. So we revert to discussions instead about cloud seeding as
this information is mainstream. I just don’t buy that if it isn’t mainstream then it doesn’t exist.
Once in a while a morsel of disclosure crops up, 1997, then Sec. of Defense William Cohen dropped a good one
in plain sight when he stated, “Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves… So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations…”
Evidence abounds that the U.S. is working diligently along the same lines, and the U.S. military mandate calls for superiority.
On this website discussion of advanced weaponry is mostly derided as being just speculation. To follow that line of thought
it is also impossible that any type of military advanced aircraft exists beyond what is known publicly. I for one believe that
there are some very cool aircraft that aren’t publicly known. My Uncle, while fishing for pike way up in Northern Canada a few springs ago witnessed an aircraft that traversed the entire horizon in a very short amount of time. The cool thing about what
he saw is that it left a contrail(s) that looked like smoke rings from Gandalfs pipe. That aircraft doesn’t exist… publicly.
-Bryan
Nobody is saying that the DOD has no secret advanced weaponry programs. Obviously they do, and they are secret.
Where I take issue is when people claim to know what those programs consist of, based on the most tenuous of clues, and selective reading of only the papers that mention your pet theory.
Now, I don’t know what Cohen was referring to exactly, but it’s worth quoting him in full:
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=674
It seems that the list of threats he lists there follows on from “The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one.“, which suggests these are what he considers to be imaginary threats and not real threats.
I don’t follow the reasoning that the false scare he is referring to translates into how the threats themselves are false. It certainly does not seem to me that he is saying that what turned out to be a false threat in the one incident means that the threats themselves are imaginary. Numerous scientists are on record as being extremely concerned (some even say ‘freaked out’) about what they see as very real threats of bio-weapons and created pathogens. Why would you assume that Cohen perceives the threats as less real than laboratory scientists who say that even in our own labs there exists the danger of accidental releases or ‘leaks’ of these types of weapons?
If Cohen thought the threats were imaginary or not possible he is at odds with evidence showing that anthrax (traced to U.S. Government anthrax and pinned on the dead guy– niiccceeee) and other threats such as virus creations (Aids and Ebola) are real.
The full context doesn’t weaken his statement at all in my opinion. I wish it was as simple as ‘quote fishing’ by a conspiracy minded individual but I don’t think it is.
Cohen even later states “It’s real, and that’s the reason we have to intensify our efforts, and that’s why this is so important” which seems to me the converse of what you say he is saying. Engineered super viruses, be ready for them, I certainly have
my oil of oregano and garlic cloves ready. …. incidentally, if I even think that they will strengthen my immune system than they probably will. The mind is vastly more powerful than medicine.
I make certain that my pet theories have evidence of actual implementation and some amount of corroborating evidence. Although
the evidence is not as clear cut as you’d like (no press conferences on HAARP being able to remotely trigger earthquakes after all) so we instead have to rely on the originator Dr. Bernard Eastlund who steadfastly maintains that this is well within HAARP and
other arrays capabilities. Furthermore we know that the energy can be used to penetrate the earth to a considerable depth at
energy levels greater than previous underground oil searching technology as stated by someone who has first hand experience with both technologies. We aren’t just yet going to get a paper from a USGS scientist outlining precisly how this technology works, but my theories are much more grounded than you imply.
Rude dog: Thank you, and yes, I will stay tuned.
Uncinus : There are people in other countries noticing it.
My whole family lives in Europe.. and they are as upset and concerned as I am. In other words.. Europe’s skies are full of chemtrails also, this I know for a fact.
I don’t think he’s saying that biological threats are not real. He’s saying that simply a rumor of a threat is also a real problem because it takes the agency’s resources – regardless of if the threat is real or not.
Addie said:
No, not because I say so, but because this is what you can see for your self when you look carefully enough. No one is questioning anyone’s eye witness testimony. No one is disputing that there are a lot more contrails now than there were a few decades ago. I have no hidden agenda about what I am saying here. I am dismayed that so many well meaning people have such a poor understanding of how the atmosphere works, never mind how a modern air transportation system works. I am simply sharing what I know. Compassion? I can’t just stand by; bad things happen when good people do nothing. I am concerned that a hard-line chemtrail believer will do something really stupid and dangerous.
As for debunking, much of the information presented here (and elsewhere) by the chemtrail believers that has nothing to do with what we are all seeing in the sky. Things like HAARP, chaff, barium, aluminum, peoples’ illnesses, and so on. There is nothing to “debunk” really, except to point out the irrelevance.
As you say, it is a question of interpretation. More than that, it’s about how the interpretation fits with what is already known.
We know that jet aircraft traverse the sky along fixed flight routes. The routes are made up of segments joining navigation beacon installations on the ground.
We know that there is wind in the upper troposphere where these planes fly, and we know that sometimes the wind there varies in direction and speed both with height and horizontally.
We know that the upper troposphere is not perfectly homogeneous – there are variations in humidity from place to place and with altitude.
We know that ambient air temperature in the upper troposphere does not vary much on a constant pressure surface (along which the planes fly), but does vary by several degrees per thousand feet with altitude.
These are basic to air navigation and basic meteorology and are easily verified and mostly self evident – surely, I don’t need to give references.
The best illustration of what I listed can be found in the video clips that the chemtrail believers put up to “prove” their story. If you want references, here they are. Look at any time-lapse “chemtrail” video…
For instance: “73 before breakfast”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL50vs899uw
In this one the contributor has helpfully delineated the air routes. Air traffic repeatedly travels the same route. More than that, you can see that once formed, the contrail is carried off the route’s position by the wind, and another is formed next to it as it moves away.
Similarly in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2goxGkFQug
You can identify the location of the air routes, translation of contrails by the wind, and spreading of contrails by wind shear.
Another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3C_cCQYiNE
Air routes, and 2 contrail shadows cast in the air – momentarily they look like beams. These shadows are another contentious issue with the contrail/chemtrail controversy.
Here are some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ka3DdUsRDU
France – air route in bottom right corner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WabzHXBJTHg
Chemtrails Time Lapse Of Still Photos Skyhighway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM-hXyOm9VI
Assorted clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O4MOq2Tdmw
Air routes – (not much after about 2:00).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSdis2Hycb8
In other videos and photos you can see where aircraft at different altitudes produce contrails with different properties, or not at all, depending on the different atmospheric conditions.
As I said, all this has been discussed at length on this site by Uncinus and others, and on other sites by even more others, and on the sites of the academic and research community.
It is a matter of interpretation of what everyone can see.
Bravo, Ross!
It is YOUR INTERPRETATION we find so objectionable. It is born of your failure to interpret the physical consequences of air travel in the first place.
It is irksome to listen to (or read) lectures about “poisoning PTB”, when you never interpret the visible signs of normal passenger transport with any degree of sense, or informed opinion.
After all (as I am constantly stating) if you simply look up, and use your eyes, it is obvious that the Sun goes round the Earth.
But you all know that isn’t so. But you will never give the reason why, will you?
eh, Ross, check again, cause I dinn’ say that !!!
Addie, I apologise and beg your pardon.
I was quoting rudedog.
I too see those “lines” in the sky, and I honestly don’t remeber seeing them when I was younger. Frequently, at least twice a week the skies of Chicago are a mess with those contrails. I read thru the arguments on this site, maybe not deeply enough, but I will respond briefly with my experience and thoughts..
1. People do see these all around the world, mostly in United Nations countries?
2. There are a lot of anomalies with the planes on days they “spray”. It does take a lot of time to observe these though.
a) You can see some planes leave short normal contrails, while other leave the persisting kind.
b) Doesn’t matter if it is fall, winter, spring, summer, Colorado, Florida, California, Illinois, United Kingdom, etc; *these persistent contrails linger and generate a fake cloud cover..
c) unusual flight angles for commercial planes. Jets all ove the sky, not following the sky “hi-way” that commercial jets use..
d) I have seen jets spray a “line”, cut the the spray and then travel in another direction..
3. I am so surprised more people dont see it too. If you do mention it to most people they look at you have lobsters coming out of your ears. It did take me almost 12 years to notice, if they started being noticed in 1996.. Now I can’t take my eyes off them, once you know what to look for they are easy to see..
a) I haven’t watched television in two years, but I am willing to bet that those “lines” are in the background skies of tv shows, movies, video games, etc.. slowly creeping into your subconcious making you think they are normal..
b)** Also, people are so distracted, who looks up anymore. Observe people, no one looks up. Everyone is so distracted by cell phones, ipods, etc..
4. The term conspiracy, that is a prorammed term. We for some reason in this society think that if we predicate something with conspiracy, it is no longer valid. If you wrap your mind around this, you will understand that the whole world is a conspiracy, being that it is governed, ruled, and shaped by a mall group of people..
Peace on Earth, Citizen of the Cosmos..
Don’t you see the connection there? If you did not notice them between 1996 and 2008, then why would you have noticed them before? Especially if there were fewer of them?
Thanx Brad.. yes, we see it and it’s not anything ” normal.”
Ross, you are forgiven ;o)
What I see today is different, and maybe someone could explain :
From horizon to horizon.. like ” beams ” very faint, like a painting with the sun, and painting in the beams. All over the sky.
Then I noticed.. they also criss crossed…. so the sky looks sorta like a checkerboard. I have never seen anything like this be4.
No way.. could there have been that many planes in the sky, just no way.
Unless they flew back and forth to create this pattern.. I am so curious.. has anyone ever seen anything like that? I am sorry that I can not explain it any better.. you would have to see this yourself.. to really get a picture here. This is by far the weirdest thing I ever saw !Uncinus ?
I started noticing the contrails this year. I live in the San Fernando Valley of Southern California. Sometimes the the contrails create a complete cloud cover on what started as a clear day.
I’ve also observed, that while some planes leave a long contrail that is thick and spreads out, the contrails of other planes flying AT THE SAME TIME, trail off behind the plane and disappear very quickly. Also, at times a plane will leave a contrail in short bursts, kind of like a dotted line. If it’s exhaust, why is the exhaust not uniform? Can you respond to these two observances?
It upsets me to think that someone would spray something in the air that I had to breath, and I hope there is another explanation.
JazzRoc
Thanks. Someone had to say it.
And to whom is the rest of your post directed? If it’s me, why? (Given the “Bravo”.)
BTW, I do understand sarcasm and irony. No frontotemporal dementia here! Sometimes though, at times, I experience simultaneous deja vu and amnesia sometimes.
You make a point, but not enough.. I will trust in the 1000’s of reports that started to circulate around 1996. Masses of people don’t start reporting anmoalies, unless they see them. From 1996 – 2006 I was highly concentrated on my studies and work, and was the typical member of society. Hooked on television like the vast majority and most likely highly programmed to the system and thus numbing me to pay no attention to things other than materialism, generally speaking..
During my studies I started to become a bit of a social critic, philosopher if you will, denounced televison, and most institutions within society. In essence, deprogramming myself. Once you learn to spot one lie, you can see our world is made up entirely of deceit, and selective information..
Correction to what you said; Air traffic has been reduced considerably since 9/11 due to the finances or the airlines, they had to reduce flights in order to keep their business profitable. Yet with this reduction, the sky is a mess..
The anomalies in the aircraft is the most intriguing and unexplainable of them all..
Why are you so interested in “de bunking” people on this site? I am just looking for information..
Peace on Earth
Questions:
1. How come weather conditions are “just right” to produce persisting contrails 3 times a week?
2. How come weather conditions are “just right” to produce persisting contrials in all the seasons, every week, all around the world?
3. How come when I observe some of these jts spray persisting contrials they are flying at almost vertical angles, angles that commercial jets don’t fly in. It is obvious the jets leaving the persistent contrail aren’t about to land or take off.
4. How come, if you observe the jets, you can see them start and stop the spray, and do radical direction changes?
** I think if these contrails and the mess of obvious pollution they are leaving in the sky were normal, from before 1996, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now..
I hope Peace and Positivity find you.. Citizen of the Cosmos
Brad, just read around this site, and you will find all your questions answered.
Air travel has increased since 9-11. There was a pause in growth of just TWO MONTHS.
It should occur to you not to draw conclusions when you can neither work from correct info nor interpret what you see.
Check http://jazzroc.wordpress.com “What’s it all about?”
Today, Saturday.. our skies are so covered with CHEMTRAILS the sun is shining red.
I was standing outside with about 12 people.. one of whom videod this mess, there was 1 pharmacist who remarked:” No wonder we are selling ” Advair” like crazy.”.. ( I just had mine re-filled ).
Some had tears of anger in their eyes.. others swore they would write more letters, to what avail….. nil, in my experience.
How does this help HAARP ” cook” the ionosphere? Dunno am no scientist.
Hey Jazz Roc-
I looked around your site and you have lots of great information on there. It is hard to figure out who is saying what though. I am not one to read through tons of negative blogging going back and forth between two opposing views. I too am a Dawkins fan, saw that on there.
However, my questions about the planes and the way I’ve seen them fly are still un answered.
Peace, Brad
Brad asked:
Jet that are about to land and take off do not leave exhaust contrail, as they are too low.
When you say “flying at almost vertical angles, angles that commercial jets don’t fly in” and “radical direction changes”, what do you mean? Can you show a photo or video of an example of this?
Jets do not “start and stop the spray”, however contrail can be broken by flying though areas of varying humidity, which makes it look like the contrail is being switched on and off. See this post for a full explanation:
http://contrailscience.com/broken-contrails/
If a contrailing plane is flying level but directly towards you, it will appear to be going vertically straight up. When you follow it overhead and eventually away from you, it will then appear do be diving straight down.
If you assume that it is flying at a constant speed, and you make some careful, timed observations of the angle of elevation above the horizon, with a bit of trigonometry you will be able to deduce that it is flying level, taking observation error into consideration.
Brad:
Frequently done to protect the “innocent”. The “guilty” get a rougher treatment…
Merry Xmas everyone.
I tell ya what, you’ve got a lot of patience Uncinus! I couldn’t have civilly posted the same thing that many times to have people provide no evidence whatsoever. So good on ya!
Tairaa your an idiot… get informed. Get Active!
http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html
Ahhh, the irony.
James:
Isn’t it just!
Uncinus. Excellent website and effort presenting accurate information and dialogue for the conspiracy theorists to consider.
The idea that a contrail is somehow a chemtrail defies all logic and scientific evidence. With zero evidence such a spraying effort exists or physical evidence of damage or death such chemtrails (might) bring if it were really happening, CT’s continue to ignore facts for their fictional beliefs.
The beauty lies in the fact that CT’s will live to a ripe old age believing chemtrails exist because the contrails they’re really seeing have no negative consequences to life on this planet.
Peace, bro.
Love the site and I am amazed at your patience in responding, especially to obvious goading by some people!
I personally don’t believe in Chemtrails, simply because the logical evidence outweighs the conspiracy. However it could exist, just like you said, along with alien coverups and lizard men or whatever.
My big thing is “…and?” So you are right and Chemtrails exist, the governments of several nations have been poisoning us for some reason for decades with airplane delivered toxins..and? What are you going to do about it? What CAN you do about it?
Nothing.
Not a GD thing.
What should we do? Complain? To whom? The internet? Haha, might as well go to Venice Beach with a sandwich board and rant and scream like a vagrant, no one is listening. Should we also raid Area 51 and NORAD while we are being productive? Let’s all write letters to our congress so they can put us on a govt. watchlist, let’s start an online petition that no one will see…better yet let’s write a book, im sure THAT will stop it.
People, you sound like said ranting vagrants when you claim Uncinus is a ‘dis-informer’, like your puny opinion really means anything in the grand scheme. Such hubris to think that your theories are SO important that the govt. NEEDS to have agents out there just to make you look bad. You think the govt. is ACTUALLY afraid of the people? They could give 2 sh*ts about you and what you think they are doing.
Keep up the good work Uncinus, rational minds may yet prevail….
Ivan:
But you ain’t correct in the first place, and all your moaning is giving us all a headache.
Meanwhile the things we want to get done AREN’T being done, because there are large crowds in the corridors of power talking about things which CANNOT be done…
JazzRoc
Haha, dood, did you even read what I wrote? _I’M_ not the one ‘moaning’ about it, I was saying that it’s useless to even try to dispute it. Since even if it IS true, you can’t change it or stop them from doing it.
Sheesh, at least read my whole post before jumping down my throat about it. Correct about…what exactly? I was essentially saying that my (and your) opinion doesn’t matter in the long run.
You guys are one pack of sick puppies. Same old dis-info techniques with no real substance. Meanwhile, I sit here watching the so called “contrails” get thicker and thicker on a hot sunny day. Never to dissipate as they eventually make their way down to the warm air around us still with no sign of evaporating. But how can this be? The contrail experts that make up this website have assured me that a contrail needs much colder and moister conditions to exist. Please provide me your expertise and clear my confusion. I am sure you can come up with an explanation that I will be happy to accept as the only logical answer, as you always do. Why so many contrails that linger and so few that disappear after a short lived appearance? How do so many pockets of warmer, non-saturated air manage to remain in the sky surrounded by the cold supersaturated air without blending together, causing the persistent lingering contrails to become broken into segments across the previous clear blue sky? What is it that prevents the warmer pockets of air from blending, yet allows the persistent lingering contrails to blend together so well as they spread out into a blanket of fog on this warm sunny day? Please mr. contrail expert, explain to me these inconsistencies in a scientific sounding way so that I can accept it as the truth and end my confusion. So I can carry on again believing that what I am actually seeing with my own eyes is not really happening. Reassure me once again that what you tell me is the only thing I must believe because I am being deceived by my own eyes and that my memories of contrails of the past are inaccurate and that I am not remembering my past correctly. I should remember my past as you say it was and not how I think it was because you are much wiser and see things much clearer than me. Why do I deserve to be blessed with your wisdom and guidance that provides me with all of the answers to my questions about contrails. When I was uneducated and confused, I actually believed that contrails used to behave differently in the past and were almost always short lived and dissipated quickly. But you have taught me that my memories of the past are inaccurate and that contrails have always behaved the way they do now. They have always persisted and lingered and spread out into a cloud layer that blankets the entire sky. I have just decided to block that part of my memory out and I’ll bet there is a perfectly logical reason why me and everyone else I know has blocked out the same memories about jet contrail behavior when we were younger. Even as a child when I would take advantage of every opportunity to lay on the grass and observe the jets fly by wondering how long the contrail will be, hoping that it will be a really long one but almost always disappointed to see them disappear so quickly. Why have I blocked out the very memories that I always longed for but never got to see? Please provide me with another one of your trustworthy and reliable explanations to set me on the correct path once again, and explaining to me once again that your explanation is the only one that is correct and that all others are just hoaxes and conspiracy theories drummed up by a bunch of whackos that wear tin foil hats and failed at education. Then I can carry on again telling myself that everything is going to be o.k. Just keep my head down and focused on my cell phone, and as long as I don’t look up it doesn’t exist. Thank you so much for this awesome website. How do you put up with all of those whacko non-conformers? Amazing!
SUMMARY
Those myths are really the basis of the “chemtrail” conspiracy theory. There is more, of course, like the halos and sun-dogs that you sometimes see (normal atmospheric optical effects), the dark lines (shadows of varying types), the stuff on the ground (unconnected). But these things really get to the heart of 99% of the chemtrail argument. After they are dispensed with, the theory holds about as much water as alien mind-control implants.
Yes sir,
That statement certainly summarizes what this here website is all about. Right to the point. Text book dis-info to the core.
It can’t be. So unless you can provide video of photographs of contrails descending undissipated into warm air around you, then we have to assume you are mistaken. Perhaps instead of seeing the contrails descending, you see them moving away and spreading out. Since they move closer to the horizon, then perhaps you take that as meaning they are lower in the sky.
Imagine a plane flying over you. It’s directly overhead, so it’s as far from the horizon as possible, 90 degrees from it. Later, when it’s say 50 miles away, it’s only 25 degrees above the horizon. It perhaps looks like it’s closer to the ground, since it’s closer to the horizon, but it’s still the same altitude. Now consider the same situation with a spreading cloud. Since it’s spreading, it’s hard to see how big it is, and hence how far away it is. So the angle above the horizon become a much bigger visual cue as to its altitude. Unfortunately this angle misrepresents the height, and hence we get the confusion.
But it’s hard to tell without seeing what you see. Please provide some photo’s or video. Or point to some other photos or video on the internet that shows these “descending” contrails, and then we can fairly discuss them.
Rudedog:
SO MANY WORDS, rudedog, yet the above is the basis of your question, and highlights your ignorance. It isn’t as if we haven’t, separately, asked YOU to educate yourself about the atmosphere. And it is plainly obvious you haven’t done so.
The atmosphere is at its coldest at the tropopause (about 26,000 feet). It then GETS WARMER with increasing altitude (the higher altitudes have more sunlight and less reflected Earth’s heat).
This makes it STABLE. It is NOT LIKE the troposphere where we all are – THAT is UNSTABLE.
THIS STRATIFIES, IT IS CALLED THE STRATOSPHERE. “STRATUM” is the Latin for LAYER. Being LAYERED, it doesn’t MIX. DIFFERENT LAYERS HAVE DIFFERENT HUMIDITIES. WHAT’S YOUR QUESTION?
CAPISCHE?
(Is there a smiley for this? – A sort of “god-help-us” smiley?)
Rudedog,
1) “So I can carry on again believing that what I am actually seeing with my own eyes is not really happening. ” Explain how you can see the chemical make up of anything from ground level by sight alone. In order to do such in a science lab would require a spectrometer and very exacting sampling; think of all the money to be saved by just looking at something to see the very molecules of it’s being. Truly, the mind boggles. Unless it’s a plot by makers of mass spectrometers to continue to produce these costly items. Oooo, forgot the paranoia factor there.
2) “I actually believed that contrails used to behave differently in the past and were almost always short lived and dissipated quickly.” Contrails have always behaved the same because they are governed by certain laws of physics, heat, etc. Unless you feel the laws of physics have been repealed, your memory is colored by your current beliefs. It happens quite a lot. Every generation had it harder than the next, the winters were colder, the sky was bluer, the school was longer away, the fish was bigger, ……get it now?
3) “explaining to me once again that your explanation is the only one that is correct and that all others are just hoaxes and conspiracy theories drummed up by a bunch of whackos that wear tin foil hats and failed at education.” Okay you got this part right. The only correct explanation is the explanation that works on all levels, can be quantitatively tested, is repeatable, and verifiable across the board. There would be no differing theories, there would be only facts. Where are the facts presented wrong?
Have you ever been a juror? I have been, and listened to four people, all of them swearing they are being truthful, relate four different ideas of what they saw. Who was right? They all saw what they saw and believed they saw the truth. Eyewitness, personal observation, memory, all are fallible. That’s why we choose to believe the science. We WANT answers, and science provides them. So, asking again, where are the facts presented wrong?
Ive been looking into this for a couple of weeks now. I live in Houston and I attended the Livestock Show and Rodeo when it was in town. My friend and I looked up while we were there and noticed “contrails” sticking in the sky in a grid like formation. The quickest response to this is “weather conditions.” The only problem I have with the “weather conditions theory” is that while some of these “contrails” were staying in the sky and spreading out, other planes’/jets’ contrails were disappearing after only seconds. So in the same sky over the same town at the same altitudes, weather chooses which contrails it would like to affect and keep around, and decides to let other contrails disappear quickly. Explain this.
The plane were at different altitudes. 1000 feet can make all the difference – it’s like the base of cloud layer, except it’s a humid layer.
I would like to see these chemtrail theorist take a trip in a private jet: that they watch fill up
with gas, inspect every space of the wings and engine for “product”,
go to 30,000 feet, observe the wing tip contrails and engine trails,
be dumbfounded, land,
then still claim that chemtrails are real.
Its not an issue of science nor evidence for most of these kind of people it is a psychological problem of trust, fear of the unknown, and some sort of search for purpose in life by taking trivial things and making them grandoise, due to a sense of life being so meaningless on a little rock in a seemingly senseless universe.
The others who subscribe to this are just plain ignorant and extremely credulous.
Also besides the government they mostly don’t trust religion, the guy at the gas station, their neighbor, their family, their cat, themselves.
Its a shame to waste ones life and time for petty nonsensical things rather than finding contentment in life simple joys and pleasures.
I challenge them: Why don’t you search for a higher purpose in life.