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Barium Chemtrails on KSLA

Brief Summary:
  • Samples of water were collected in August 2007, in Stamps Arkansas, by leaving some bowls outside for a month
  • The resultant dirty water was tested by KSLA and was found to have the same amount of barium in it as most municipal tap water.
  • The reporter misunderstood the results, and said there was a lot of Barium
  • The reporter now admits he was mistaken, and that he found no evidence for chemtrails

 

ksla-jar.jpg

Some conspiracy theorists think that persistent spreading contrails indicate some kind of deliberate aerial spraying, probably by the government. They speculate as to what could be in these trails, and one of the most common things they claim is barium.

Some people are so obsessed by this idea that they have rainwater tested to see if it has barium in it. They usually find some, and then trumpet this as evidence that their theory is correct.

Unfortunately they are wrong. I’ll explain why, but first, some basic science.

What is Barium?

Barium is a metal, like calcium. You never find it in its metal form (outside of a lab), as it oxidizes rapidly in the air. Instead you’ll find compounds, usually barium sulfate or barium carbonate. Barium compounds are used in the plastics, rubber, electronics and textile industries, in ceramic glazes and enamels, in glass-making, brick-making and paper-making, as a lubricant additive, in pharmaceuticals and cosmetics, in case-hardening of steel and in the oil and gas industry as a wetting agent for drilling mud. Barium in water comes primarily from natural sources as it is present as a trace element in both igneous and sedimentary rocks. Barium is generally present in air in particulate form as a result of industrial emissions, particularly from combustion of coal and diesel oil and waste incineration.

µ and Parts Per …

When you measure the concentration of a substance in water, you can express it in various ways. You have to pay attention to units when converting from one way to another.

A liter of water weighs 1 kilogram, which is 1000 grams.

A milligram is 1/1000th (a thousandth) of a gram. 1mg = 1 milligram = 0.001g

A microgram is 1/1000000 (a millionth) of a gram. 1ug = 1µg = 1 microgram

Note that last line, because it’s important. The symbol µ is the greek letter “mu”. In measuring, it’s used to mean “micro”, or “millionth”. (To type µ, hold down the Alt key, type 230 on the numeric keypad, and then release the Alt key). Since it’s difficult to type, it’s often written using the letter “u”. Make sure you understand the difference between a milligram (mg, 1/1000th or a gram) and a microgram (µg, ug, 1/1000000th of a gram). A milligram is thousandth, not a millionth. It’s a little confusing sometimes.

A microgram is a millionth of a gram, so it’s a billionth of a kilogram. Since there are 1000 grams in a kilogram, and 1,000,000 micrograms in a gram, there are 1,000,000,000 µg in a kilogram. All this is basic high school science.

Concentration in water is measured as ppm, ppb, g/L, mg/L, µg/L. These are parts per million, parts per billion, grams per liter, milligrams per liter and micrograms per liter. We can convert between these easily:
1 ppm = 1 mg/L = 1000 ppb = 1000 µg/L
1 ppb = 1 µg/L = 0.001 ppm = 0.001 mg/L
(remember that 1 Liter is 1000 grams, so 1 mg in one liter is a thousandth of a gram in one thousand grams, or 1 part in a million).

Chemtrail claims

This video is very popular right now. Claiming that water was analyzed and found to have barium in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB-489l6MI

airteamimagescom.jpgThe video was taken in Stamps, Arkansas, which is not entirely surprising as that’s in a region of the US the might be renamed “Contrail Alley”. It’s at the intersection of the cross country routes between the West Coast, and the major airport in Atlanta, Orlando and Jacksonville. Stamps is midway between the two major regional VORs (Texarkana and El Dorado), right next to the major East-West airway Victor V278, and on the edge of a MOA that traffic has to skirt occasionally. It’s also directly below the Atlanta to Dallas, San Antonio to New York and Houston to Chicago flight routes. On just ONE of these routes (Atlanta to Dallas) there is a scheduled commuter flight, directly overhead, at contrail altitude every 15 minutes! The same frequency of flights is found on the Houston-Chicago route, which crosses at right angles almost exactly overhead. Hence, when the weather is right, it is inevitable that you will see contrails in a grid pattern, “a giant checkerboard”. See this Google Earth file: airlines-over-stamps.kmz

ksla-jar2.jpgBut back to the video. It shows a jar of dirty water (collected 9/1/2007), which was collected by Bill Nichols. He’s posted some comments on the YouTube video describing how he collected the water:

it was rainwater. i collected it in two separate bowls on the hood of a pickup truck in my backyard. we are 25 miles from the nearest interstate. this is a very poor county, the only industry is chickens, logging , farming, a little oil—no coal burners or anything like that. i wasn’t looking for attention. i was looking for answers, ksla said they would pay to get it tested. i dropped it off, and they asked my opinion

i put 2 clean bowls there specifically because i wanted to catch what was falling. i don’t recall exactly when i put the bowls there, but they were there for about a month before i contacted ksla. the goo that i caught was full of barium. have a cool day!

Pause for a second, and consider if you left a bowl out for the month of August in rural Arkansas, what would you expect to find in it after a month? Some dirty water? Perhaps a little dust? What’s dust made of outdoor? Dirt, dried topsoil. What would you expect to find in the dirt in Arkansas – one of the richest sources of barium in the US? You’d expect a bit of Barium – but did they actually find any more than you’d get in tap water?

This dirty water was tested, the test results are available in full here. You can also see the results in the video, at around 00:55 to 00:59. Here they are pieced together.

ksla-test-results.jpg

And just to be clear, here’s a closeup of the results, and the units:

ksla-test-results2.jpg

That’s quite straightforward right? Barium found at 68.8 µg/L. That’s 68.8 parts per billion. Now listen to the audio at that precise point (also transcribed on the KSLA web site):

“The results: a high level of barium, 6.8 parts per million (ppm), more than three times the toxic level set by the EPA”.

Immediately you can see something is wrong here. it’s 68.8, not 6.8, and it’s not parts per million, it’s parts per billion. So it’s actually 0.0688 parts per million.

And what of “three times the toxic level set by the EPA”? They are referring to the EPA Limits, as quoted by the CDC:

“The EPA has set a limit of 2.0 milligrams of barium per liter of drinking water (2.0 mg/L), which is the same as 2 ppm [parts per million].”

So the EPA limit is 2 ppm (2000 µg/L), and the tests actually found 0.0688 ppm (68.8 µg/L), just 3.4% of the allowable limit.

That limit’s not really a “toxic level” either. There’s no evidence that it would be toxic even at that level (which, remember, is 29 times higher than what was actually found). The world health organization has set a drinking water level of 7 ppm after doing studies into the health effects of barium.

Barium has always been in water

The WHO also reported on the barium levels in drinking water (meaning, from a tap, not some dirty puddle) and they found:

In a study of water supplies of cities in the USA, a median value of 43 μg/litre was reported; in 94% of all determinations, the concentrations found were below 100µg/litre (IPCS, 1990)

So the average was 43 µg/L, but most were below 100µg/L. This means the amount of Barium found in this supposed chemtrail residue was about the same as was found in the municipal water supplies in the US, back in 1990. This is pretty low, it varies with geography based on the type of rocks in the aquifer. In Tuscany, Italy, the Barium in drinking water was around 1000µg/L (1ppm), high, but still within safe limits.

The amount of barium will also vary based on the weather. Very heavy rains will leach more barium out into the groundwater. So you’d expect more barium after very rainy seasons. This is actually what you find if you look at the historical records in California (which has very uneven annual rainfall). You see spikes in barium whenever there is a wet year after a dry year. Recent years like these are 1991, 1995, 1998 and 2004 (2001 and 2003 also spiked to a lesser extent). The expected peaks were confirmed by the results of Rosalind Peterson at California Skywatch.

So what’s going on here? Chemtrail theorists are constantly claiming that “chemtrails” are made of barium, and that it’s affecting our health. But whenever water is tested, it is found to have perfectly normal levels of barium, which vary as expected based on the rainfall. In the cases where they claim it’s got an unusual amount, this is just a misunderstanding of the units and limits involved.

Yes, there is barium in the drinking water, there always has been, and always will be. Trace amounts, mostly from the environment and some industrial pollution. It’s a very small amount, and not dangerous. There is no evidence to suggest it has anything to do with “chemtrails.”

Update #1: 5/2/2009

Jeff Ferrall, the reporter in the story now says:

http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/comment-page-8/#comment-23164

Yes, I did make corrections to my first report, which originally aired almost 2-years ago now… after quickly realizing my very embarrassing mistake. I was not happy with myself. Unfortunately, the first version of my report got out to the internet before I could make the correction(s), and the wrong version is shown repeatedly.

My feeling is, and maybe you’d agree, that if such aerosol mixes were created and loaded into jets with either a separate/independent dispersal method other than the exhaust, or actually in the fuel itself… somewhere, somehow, you’d expect someone to talk. I have not heard that yet.

I also interviewed the scientist who originally patented what some believe was a precursor to so-called chemtrail technology. He’s a very kind, helpful man who could not have been more helpful. He says he knows nothing about any such conspiracy.

There’s also a mention of this story In Skeptical Enquirer magazine:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/curious_contrails_death_from_the_sky/

Update#2: 3/14/2010

More people make the same mistake.  This time someone in Austrailia, and the story was picked up by a Los Angeles environmentalist.   Again mg is confused with µg, making the results 1000 times as high:

http://www.examiner.com/x-10438-Human-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d13-video-White-Clouds-of-Death-Aussie-exposes-geoengineered-chemtrail-contents?#comments

976 thoughts on “Barium Chemtrails on KSLA

  1. Jakeability says:

    That’s alot of flights!
    Another couple of questions…….What do you make of these ‘supposed’ air traffic controllers who suggest the military regularly diverts commercial traffic for secretive projects?

    And…

    Why don’t aircraft [roughly] fly in the same flight path, similar to a road or interstate?

  2. What do you make of these ’supposed’ air traffic controllers who suggest the military regularly diverts commercial traffic for secretive projects?

    You’d have to give me an example there. However traffic IS often diverted for various reasons. A common reason is presidential travel, although they don’t tell you who exactly is traveling (P or VP), and there’s a big window. See:

    http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2008/081201tfrs.html

    There are also regions of airspace called MOAs that you can fly through, but the Military might also ask you not to sometimes, if they are doing some practicing or tests there. They won’t tell you exactly why, and I would not expect them to. It’s like when you come to a diversion in the road, does everyone stop and try to figure out why there is a diversion? No, you just follow it around, and continue on your journey. Secret does not mean sinister.

    Why don’t aircraft [roughly] fly in the same flight path, similar to a road or interstate?

    Because they don’t have to. Actually there are “Victor Airways”, which are like roads, but more like rough suggestions of roads, many miles wide. Pilots want fly the most economical route, which is point to point, so they often do fly the same route. However they often get directed (vectored) by ATC in such a way that they end up some miles to the side of this route.

    Another answer is, they often do, but because the wind blows the contrail to the side, it does not look like they do. Imagine you are driving north on a road, and there’s a 60mph east wind blowing. You leave a trail of smoke as you go. You pass a sign in the road. Now five minutes behind you another car is also driving north. It passes the sign one minute after you. Where is your smoke trail? It’s five miles to the west. Now you know you are on the same road, but in the sky you can’t see the road, so to the ground observer it can look like they are flying along different roads.

  3. JazzRoc says:

    Jake – good questions.
    Uncinus – GREAT answers. Kinda frustrating for me! 🙂

  4. Anonymous says:

    Is anyone actually buying this load of dis-info crap? What a bunch of phonies!

  5. Jakeability says:

    JazzRoc-Frustrating?….explain.

  6. JazzRoc says:

    Jake, Uncinus outperforms me. Rather than contributing, I’m learning. Sometimes I do like to contribute…

  7. Carl says:

    let me make a suggestion uncinus, you should post some videos on Youtube. You’ll get thousands and thousands of people on there.

  8. Carl says:

    Today, 1/26/09 is a good day for persistent contrails. I live in Roseville, CA.

  9. Orlando9/11Truth says:

    Uncinus,

    I would be delighted to get your take on the 9/11 attacks and the 9/11 Truth organizations springing up all across the world. Also, do you have an opinion on the erosion of our Constitutional freedoms and development of the police state apparatus?

    Thanks,

    Joshua

  10. Joshua, this site is for discussing contrails and the “chemtrail” theory. It is not for other subjects unless directly related. I’ve no interest in getting into any extended 911 or NWO debates.

  11. MarcDLS says:

    Even IF the government was spraying “us” with something, who gives a crap what it is anyway. We take in loads of crap into our system everyday. Plus, some of us put loads of extra crap in out system just for the fun of it. What worse could the government do…really…?

  12. JQA says:

    Just in case someone on this blog might want to create your own conspiracy theory so you can have something new to talk about (this blog is really interesting, but this one has been beat to death by both sides here), here is a step-by-step approach to creating your own custom conspiracy theory.

    1. Pick your bad guy – government, big corporations etc. Ideally also pick on some shadowy, cult-like organization which can supposedly be connected with your adversary. (I know The Da Vinci Code is fictional but, hey, Opus Dei was a good pick!).
    2. Pick a major current event to base your theory on – especially an unexpected, shocking, visual event that’s shared.
    3. Develop your story – pick & choose your source info, construct a compelling story from it, and hey if something doesn’t fit your story, reinterpret it! Sow uncertainty, query the official evidence, and find new facts contradicting it. (Work on your postulates and corollaries)
    4. Prepare your defense – be prepared to tweak your conspiracy theory around the edges should anyone point out any inconsistencies etc, but always hold to the core theory, emphasizing that it’s just a question of getting the evidence to prove its truth. And if others question your theory, well they must be in on the conspiracy too, mustn’t they?

    After this is done, I would say that the best thing to do to make sure that you are able to sustain the theory in the public is to keep your personal dopamine level high. That will keep you attentive to daily and personal details that can support your theory, help you feel good about it, and do a lot to decrease your short term memory (letting you forget things not in your personal experience that don’t support your theory). It will also help if the first people you expose to the theory that are feeling somewhat alienated, disenfranchised and disaffected related to your bad guy, as these people will be the group that will turn out to be your base. It’s better if this group is somewhat monotheistic (not just about religion) or not interested in a lot of open dialog about a subject, but that is not entirely necessary, as long as they are fairly certain in their belief system. It doesn’t really matter what the belief system is, as long as they are fairly strong adherents to one system and are not too interested in open dialog. Try to encourage them to keep their dopamine levels high too; it will pay off in keeping your base faithful and supportive.

    Right now is a time when we have perfect storm conditions when it comes to the creation of conspiracy theories, so I recommend that you make your picks and get started. The elements are currently in place that are necessary for the creation of a new and widely held conspiracy that has staying power:

    1. Need to have a group of people, a significant portion of the population, that are feeling a bit alienated from the system. George Bush saw to putting this one in place.

    2. A sub-group of these people need to have a tendency to distrust other people. This is where your monotheists come into play. There are many groups that could work for this purpose, one of which frequents this blog.

    3. The best time to introduce a new conspiracy theory is when there is a feeling of insecurity when it comes to continued employment. I don’t think you could pick a better time in our lifetime (so far).

    I hope that this is helpful in giving anyone interested some guidelines in setting up a useful conspiracy theory that will serve you well in parties you attend. Through the internet, a new theory can get moving pretty quickly, once you get the basics planned out and have a base you have identified and who are aware of your theory. If you can put some thought into the postulates supporting your theory, you’ll find that this will play a very big part in creating a successful conspiracy theory. Base it on some good postulates that can be objectively proved and demonstrated. It will make conversations and arguments you have concerning your theory fairly strong, and most people, not being familiar with scientific method, will be overwhelmed by the attention to detail and just simply give up. (On the other hand, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t. If someone doesn’t know a lot or is not impressed with the details, it’s possible that outright lies will work as well.)

    Good luck and have fun. I look forward to seeing if anything interesting comes out of this post. I am not the author of all this material, but have had an interest in studying conspiracy theories since my psychology classes in college in the 60’s, and because of the perfect storm conditions right now, I’m interested to see what might come up. Consider this a bit of cloud seeding.

  13. GG says:

    No way are thin lines of ice crystals ‘contrails’ – gonna loom in the sky for hours- hours!! – contrails dissipate quickly, just following a planes tail – whoever is supporting this site is just full of it – the dumb leading the blind – the real answer, if you believe our government and military are just a bunch of honest innocent people trying to get along (haha), Would be that this is technology being tested to raise cell phone connectivity – thats it !! – pure and simple –
    But in no way are these ‘sky lines’ – naturally occurring ‘airplane meets atmosphere’ emissions – no way
    You can tell yourself that till you choke – it just aint the fucking truth

    What needs to happen is an independent chemical collection agency is gonna have to do an unannounced flyby on a plane reported to be emmiting chemtrails – collect samples right out of the sky – dont wait till they hit the ground like now!!!
    Until then – dont believe anything on this crappy gov. website

  14. Don says:

    Well boys,
    It doesn’t really matter what the h#ll these clouds are composed of does it? It’s very quickly eroding our quality of life. Anything that traps heat and dissolves the ozone layer is bad news, isn’t it?
    A terrestrial motor vehicle isn’t dangerous per Se but it would be quite foolish to intentionally inhale the tailpipe emissions, don’t you think?
    Ditto, for breathing deeply of exhaust from a ship or, jet up close and personal. Case in point; When I was a child of 12, I was standing on a bridge which spanned some railroad tracks, at that moment a freight train passed under the bridge, while I was looking down, the locomotive belched a cloud of exhaust gases directly into my face. I accidentally breathed in said exhaust and was ill with asthma and terrible lung infections for well over two months. There shouldn’t be any question about how toxic these emissions are.
    I’m more concerned about the cumulative effect of over fifty years of toxic gas build up, within this thin envelope of life known as the atmosphere, that we all currently occupy, not some idiotic panic theories dreamed up by overly creative, bored people.
    If there is a conspiracy here, it’s one based on stupidity. Human beings are the only creatures who don’t live in harmony with their environment, we’re always tinkering around ignorantly with things that are best left alone.
    We are simply suffering from the cumulative effect of our own stupid actions, since the dawn of the industrial revolution.
    People speak of progress but how progressive is it to shit in the very bed we lie down to sleep in each night?
    Even what we consider to be lesser animals won’t do that.

    Don

  15. Jakeability says:

    JQA-Very interesting post. So then, which ‘conspiracy’ theories do you believe in? Or are they all false, simply…. ‘coincidence theories’?
    As you studied conspiracy theories in the 60’s, what did you think about the Warren Commission report?

    On this site, Uncinus has done a great job of disproving ‘chemtrails’ as a false conspiracy theory, however he has supported this claim with another false conspiracy theory,…that the planet is warming because of carbon dioxide, possibly increasing the frequency of persistent contrails.

  16. Jakeability says:

    http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/tempCO2_vs_solwind.html

    again,…it would seem that solar output causes global warming and/or cooling.

  17. Jake, the actual cause of global warming is irrelevant. I take it you agree that the average temperature has increased? Then, as far as the effect on contrails is concerned (probably quite slight), you don’t need to bring “conspiracy” into it.

  18. I think it does matter what contrails are composed of. If they were poisonous, then that would be a great problem. However, they are basically the same as car exhaust, which, while not exactly healthy, is mostly water and carbon dioxide. There’s nothing particularly sinister about contrails. But I appreciate your general point – atmospheric pollution is a concern to everyone.

  19. Hi GG, what makes you think contrails dissipate quickly? All the science books, even the old ones, say otherwise.

  20. JazzRoc says:

    GG, your aggressive and uninformed assertions are consistent throughout. I’m sure we all understand what these mean.

    Don:

    I’m more concerned about the cumulative effect of over fifty years of toxic gas build up, within this thin envelope of life known as the atmosphere, that we all currently occupy

    Don, the Earth has “sinks” for absorbing and dealing with toxic gases.

    The fresh air you breathe (maybe you have to go to the seaside to breathe it!) was once volcanic emissions. The steam, carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide has ended up mostly absorbed by the HUGE biomass of the Earth.

    Volcanic dusts and ash are brought down by rain, basically, and end up as sedimentary rocks.

    Oxygen is liberated by photosynthesis, the majority of which takes place in ocean phytoplankton. This comes from the biological breakdown of the carbon dioxide.

    The tiny proportion of the atmosphere which is carbon dioxide has tripled in the last hundred and fifty years, but is still low, as is its toxicity (you exhale it). It has tripled only because we’re pumping it into the atmosphere more quickly than life processes can deal with it. It would be sensible therefore to back off from doing this. Jake, take note!

    CO2 has a “greenhouse effect”, so its increase is worth worrying about: a greater atmospheric temperature could trigger other processes which might release more CO2, and that could become catastrophic.

    But “increased toxicity” of the atmosphere isn’t worth worrying about, because it simply isn’t more toxic – in general – though, of course, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to live downwind from a brickworks, metal refinery, or power station, for instance.

  21. Jakeability says:

    JazzRoc -I do believe carbon dioxide can have an effect, as you point out, I just don’t believe this to be the most influential cause of the warming. Good analysis though.

    Uncinus-Why do you think this is being taught in schools?

    http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/humans/chemtrails/news.php?q=1215023723

  22. Uncinus-Why do you think this is being taught in schools?

    http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/humans/chemtrails/news.php?q=1215023723

    The same reason all the other stuff in that book is being taught. It’s science. It’s a theoretical way of combating global warming. Not a particularly good one, but still one that has been suggested. It would make an interesting thought experiment for the class. They would also probably figure out why it’s a bad idea.

  23. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-Will you point out the inaccuracies in this article please.

    http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/Chemtrails.shtml

    Specifically the Canadian admission and the “anonymous” [like you] ATC technician’s claims.

  24. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-about the textbook….I remember my science textbooks as heavy on facts, and very light on theories,…let alone theories about theories [man-made global warming]. Based on this article;

    http://www.holtonweather.com/global.htm

    …it would seem they will have to rewrite the textbooks next year theorizing about ‘man-made global cooling’. Just another in a growing line of updated articles about solar output, and it’s effect on global temperatures.The man-made global warming crowd claims an excess of particles [mostly co2] are to blame for the warming,…so this textbook suggests artificially adding more particulates?….seems to obvious, even for 7th graders.
    It almost feels like an effort to acclimate.

  25. I’m not sure what you mean by “the Canadian admission”. Could you quote the bit you want discussing?

    The supposed account from the anonymous ATC that “the chemicals being spread in the exercises were acting as electrolytes, enhancing conductivity of radar and radio waves” is not really useful evidence. It’s anonymous so it could be anyone, and it could be a hoax. It could also be a misinterpretation by Thomas.

    And, sure, I’m anonymous. But everything I say is verifiable, so you don’t have to take my word on any of it. Just look it up.

    And just for fun, from your article:

    3) Contrails are always pure white and don’t exhibit much halo effect. Chemtrails have an oily glint to them, with pronounced rainbow-like color effects (reddish or pinkish tint) as the sun shines through. Some of the best photographic evidence of chemtrails is found at http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

    Surely you can see the inaccuracy there? Or do you agree with dbootsthediva :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8&feature=related

  26. CO2 is not a particulate. Particulates are small particles of solid matter. CO2 is a gas.

    CO2 lets in solar radiation, and then stops it escaping as infrared radiation. Particulates would block the solar radiation.

    See, it’s quite an interesting science discussion. Science classes now do include discussion of all kinds of things, both theoretical and practical. Did you not learn about the water cycle in science class? It’s the same kind of thing. See, for example:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=grade+science+syllabus+“water+cycle”

  27. JazzRoc says:

    Jake:

    Will you point out the inaccuracies in this article please.

    How about this?

    6) Contrails cannot be shut on and off at will, nor abruptly, as witnesses have seen in numerous sightings of chemical spraying by aircraft.

    Have you suffered a relapse? 🙂

  28. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-Here is the part I was referring to:

    “On November 18, 1998, the people of Espanola petitioned Parliament, suspecting possible government involvement in these airborne chemical emissions. They called upon Parliament to “repeal any law that would permit the dispersal of military chaff or of any cloud-seeding substance whatsoever by domestic or foreign military aircraft without the informed consent of the citizens of Canada thus affected.” In response to their petition, the Ministry of Defense eventually replied: “It’s not us.” The government assertion was mostly true: it was not Canadian aircraft, but US Air Force tankers which were conducting the sprayings. Yet the Canadian government was complicit in allowing the US to experiment over Canada”

    And these other points seem very interesting as well

    5) Contrails exit directly behind the engines of the aircraft, which produce the moisture. Thus, aircraft will exhibit only 1, 2, 3, or 4 distinct condensation trails, each trailing an engine. Chemtrails, in contrast, are expelled from multiple ports along the entire wing surface, not directly in line with the engines. Once again, see the pictures on http://www.carnicom.com. These photos are perhaps the most definitive of all chemtrail evidence. Some debunkers use cropped photos of high-G manuevers which gives off aerodynamic condensation from the wing–as a supposed explanation to wing emitted chemtrails. But this is bogus. Aerodynamic condensation doesn’t occur in straight and level flight and never leaves a long contrail. It also shows up within inches of the wing trailing edge, unlike chemtrail spraying.

    6) Contrails cannot be shut on and off at will, nor abruptly, as witnesses have seen in numerous sightings of chemical spraying by aircraft. I personally have seen this type of on/off spraying in Utah by two military tankers flying in loose formation. When numerous witnesses called KSL–TV in Salt Lake City to investigate, KSL dutifully parroted the government’s official response: that the aircraft was a government contractor flying a Lear jet and doing experiments on ice crystal formation. Baloney! As one of those witnesses, and an experienced pilot, I can tell you those two huge military tanker aircraft were not tiny Lear jets. The government is lying–but at least, in this case, they didn’t try to outright deny what hundreds of people were watching, as they usually do. They simply tried to take advantage of public ignorance of aircraft recognition, feeding them a phony but marginally plausible excuse.

    7) Aircraft dispersing chemtrails always fly back and forth over a set area, creating circular or zig-zag patterns of vapor in the sky. Often many chemtrail aircraft can be seen in one area, flying in crisscross patterns laying down vapor trails before flying off over the horizon. Large airliners operating under Air Traffic Control fly on set airways and do not make such patterns in the sky. Government representatives have tried to pass off reports of crisscross chemtrail patterns as merely the convergence of airliner contrails at normal air traffic intersections, but this is false. For one thing, almost all airways in the US run in straight lines. Neither do airliners fly in close formation with other aircraft. In addition, chemtrail sightings almost never come close to normal airway intersections, lest they interfere with normal traffic or be observed by other airline passengers.

    8) All legitimate aircraft at high altitudes emitting contrails will be acknowledged by the FAA. Conversely, the existence of aircraft spraying chemicals is always denied by the FAA, under orders from the government. You can be on a cell phone, in real time, reporting the presence of an aircraft overhead to the FAA and they will tell you that no such aircraft exists on their radar screens. They are flat-out lying. It’s amazing to me how many military pilots and government ATC controllers can so easily justify these lies. Surely some are aware of the damaging health effects reported on the internet. Occasionally, an honest controller will admit there is a “military exercise” blocked out for that area.

    Especially interesting to me was the ‘cell phone-FAA’ thing in #8, and the experiments on ice crystal formation by the ‘lear jet’ in #6…..and as is mentioned in #7, why aren’t passengers reporting these criss-cross patterns, if those are civilian flights……..and to top it off…..all of this coming from a PILOT!
    [JazzRoc-still think these claims slander pilots?—and no,… no relapse,…. just crossing my T’s and dotting my I’s!]

  29. Jakeability says:

    JazzRoc-You’ve pointed out the photo shopping done by the “chemtrail” crowd in the on-off photos, but have you pointed out the cropped photos of the high G manuevers, used by the “debunker” crowd?…….

  30. Well, let’s take those one at a time. When we’ve dealt with one, we can deal with the next.

    So, first, the one that was of most interesting to you:

    You can be on a cell phone, in real time, reporting the presence of an aircraft overhead to the FAA and they will tell you that no such aircraft exists on their radar screens. They are flat-out lying.

    Why don’t you try this, and see what happens. Then we can talk.

  31. A.A. says:

    wow this is absolutely ridiculous…not the speculation whether chemtrails exist or not…but the fact that some people on this thread argue like children. rudedog, i find it interesting in post 267 you say,

    “You guys are all the same. Your only response is to call someone stupid if they dont conform to your programmed way of thinking. Grow up. Thats not how you educate people, by being a jerk.”

    Tell me, rudedog, if your following posts go against what was just stated:

    Post 43:Why do you people waste your time arguing with Uncinus. It is obvious what his purpose is here. He could have a chemtrail shoot out his ass and he would still debunk it. The fact is, he is actually trying to convince you that what you are seeing with your own eyes, breathing with your own lungs, smelling with your own nose etc. is not really happening. It’s just your wild imagination trying to concoct a conspiracy. Why? Because you have nothing else in your life to worry about since George Bush has taken office. You are a sick man mr. uncinus. Somewhere out there are members of your family being poisoned also. Oh, by the way, has anyone wondered where the funding for this massive operation comes from? Well, thats the sickest part of it all because it comes from you. Thats right. you are paying for your own extermination and there is nothing you can do about it. How f’ d up is that?

    Post 56:I am amazed at the level of ignorance in this country. To automatically dismiss something as being a ‘conspiracy theory’ and labeling someone as a whack job is pure ignorance. First of all, if you were to just go outside and look up and observe what is taking place on a heavy spray day you would see how obvious it is. When contrails do form, it would be a rare occasion to see one that lingers for hours or even all day, if that is even possible. Suddenly we have a new term labeled ‘lingering contrails’. This is to try to convince you that this is something that is ‘normal’. Well, anyone that has spent any time studying the sky lately knows that there is nothing ‘normal’ about what is taking place. On one particular day I observed an average of one jet passing overhead every ten minutes. Every one of them spewing their poison. I starts with a few lines in the sky, which look like normal contrails to most people. The difference is, instead of eventually dissipating, they continue to grow and spread out until they merge. By the end of the day the entire sky is blanketed with a thick layer that was supposedly formed from contrails. Without a clue what is happening right in front of their own faces, all of the mindless drones go about their daily routine thinking that it is just normal cloud cover, if they even think about it at all. I live in a higher elevation on the west side of town and around dusk I have a perfect view as I watch the toxic cloud slowly settle down on to the city. Sometimes it is so thick that it literally looks like it is dripping out of the sky. It even happens on days when the conditions are not favorable for contrail formations.
    When an independent thinker with a conscience speaks up out of concern to tell people what he has observed he is labeled as a ‘conspiracy theorist’ by a bunch of ignorant drones that have not spent 5 minutes looking into his claim. They are unable to think independently, therefore they jump on the ‘conspiracy theory’ bandwagon without a second thought because they would not want to be perceived as not being ‘normal’. God forbid! It is too much for their little minds to process that something like this could actually be taking place. And anyone that dares to admit that they have actually witnessed it is automatically a liar or a whack job with no basis. A whack job is someone who chooses to ignore the facts because it is easier for his mind to accept it as if it were not really happening. Where is your proof that chemtrails do NOT exist? The next time one of you ignorant drones want to automatically label someone as a whack job for describing what they have witnessed, maybe you should actually have something to back it up. If you cant back it up then maybe you should present something that shows that you are NOT a whack job. You will never know the truth until you have a mind of your own and stop letting others think for you and start basing your decisions on facts and not peer pressure. After all, when someone comes forward with disturbing information that could have an impact on your health and your children’s health and well being, it is intended to be for your benefit, not to bring harm to you. To react by calling them a nut job without even bothering to provide evidence of it makes one wonder who the real nut job is.
    Stephen Couchman is a perfect example. As long as uncinus continues to do his thinking for him, he can continue to exist in his comfortable conspiracy free little world. You crack me up. You are baffled at how uncinus can maintain his composure. Wake up Stephen! You are being mind f****d by a professional phsycologist. How does it feel?

    Post 62: To: Chemtrails are fake

    Thanks for enlightening me. I feel like such a fool now that a real scholar has posted a comment. Especially one that did some real freakin research. Which two videos did ya’ll watch on the you tube cuz I would like to be educated 2. Of course, I could never expect to be as smart as you cuz you knows real college type peoples. And thanks for that information about the impending government attack. I have been looking so hard for a conspiracy to believe in cuz I just want to believe in one so so much. Although, I wish you wouldn’t have told me about the secret aliens moving in to my house cuz now I’m gettin kinda scared. I had no idea! But that’s ok cuz you have really inspired me mister. I really am gonna try to get more educated like you so I can understand concepts and stuff. If you will be my new mentor I promise I’ll study real hard and make you very proud of me. I have to confess something that’s kinda embarrassing but I gotta be honest with ya. I thought the easter bunny was fake. I am a little confused about why I should be worrying about him. Is he a bad bunny? (I always knew the tooth fairy was a big meany). After all the things I learned from you I too am amazed that we are all still alive! Who would have thought?!? Thanks again Jethro.

    Uncinus,
    A very impressive following you have.

    Post 102:
    John M,
    You’re ignorance is so typical. Conspiracy theorist? How original. If you are going to resort to name calling try coming up with something that has some sting to it. I too am amazed by your ability to diagnose paranoia and psychological disorders. Please correct me if I am wrong John M. A person that you have never had any contact with or have never even heard of for that matter, describes something that has happened right in front of his eyes and it just doesn’t seem right to him for various reasons and his description of his experience defies what your brain perceives as logical, so the only logical conclusion must be that he is a paranoid conspiracy theorist that dwells in such dark places as conspiracy theory circles, has a psychological disorder and is the result of a failing education system or a combination of the three. Wow! You really have mastered the ‘tool of logic’ as you put it. Now that you have blown my cover by exposing my subculture of the scammers, I am going to miss out on all of the benefits that I would have gained from that. John M., the voice of peace and reason.
    I am curious about those people ‘on the fence’. What exactly is it that uncinus is saving them from? Falling off of the fence? Congratulations John M. You are a true soldier in the battle to rid the world of illogical creatures and irrational scamming subcultures that have emerged from the failing education system. Go get em soldier! Make uncinus proud! He has several other followers just like you, so you should fit right in.
    CleansedEyes,
    In times like this, it helps to be reminded by people like John M. how blessed we really are. To have a mind capable of thinking independently as opposed to thinking what someone tells you to think or what you have been programmed to think. It is really sad that such an immoral crime against humanity can take place in plain sight and so many people can remain oblivious to it. That has got to be the perfect crime.

    Here is a link that can provide some useful information on the subject contrails and other types of trails that jets leave behind: http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/Chemtrails.shtml
    Of course, as John M. says, “The tool of logic is absolutely useless in the face of such illogical creatures. You can use sound reasoning and scientific proof all day long, but at the end of that day they will believe whatever it is they choose to believe, regardless of input”. So true.

    Post 206: “Hey, it’s the uncinus and tonyB show. Can you guys lay it on any thicker? It’s getting so deep in here I need to put on some hip waders before I get some on me. When did this website change to comedy central? Or should I say, ‘comedy contrail’. Ha ha, now I’m a comedien too!
    Hey tonyB, you got a little something on your nose. You might want to get that before anyone sees you. Thanks for the laughs guys. Shall I stay tuned for another episode, or is ‘comedy contrail’ over?”

    These posts are just a few. There are plenty of others filled with sarcasm and childish remarks, but i’ll leave those for you readers to check out. Tell me, what was the purpose of Post 206? No facts or evidence was about the topic was given, no arguments, no opinions. Only to attack uncinus and tonyb with some adolesceant crap my teenage son probably would have said. As you state in post 167, you are approaching 50. One would think that a person that age would have learned to respect the opinions of others and grew out making comments like, “John M,
    You’re ignorance is so typical. Conspiracy theorist? How original. If you are going to resort to name calling try coming up with something that has some sting to it. I too am amazed by your ability to diagnose paranoia and psychological disorders. “, “I have to confess something that’s kinda embarrassing but I gotta be honest with ya. I thought the easter bunny was fake. I am a little confused about why I should be worrying about him. Is he a bad bunny? (I always knew the tooth fairy was a big meany). After all the things I learned from you I too am amazed that we are all still alive! Who would have thought?!? Thanks again Jethro.”, and last but not least, “Uncinus, SR1419, Jazzroc and whoever,
    Just curious what your official responses are to this video. It appears to have all of the things that you claim have never been presented to support the ‘non-contrail’ possibility as an explaination for the dissapearance of our once clear, deep blue skies, that anyone without ADD can remember vividly”.

    Post 267 was obviously an error on your part, proven here. I think people would agree with me in the fact that you just cant seem to get your point across without being radical and being an ass about it. Why dont you just stop posting if you cant argue like Uncinus, who has yet to say anything to anyone to make fun of them and degrade them personally.

  32. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-I don’t have to try this, nor did I say I believed it…only that it was interesting. I was hoping you had a better explanation than “try it, then we’ll talk”…..
    If this account of a man calling the FAA, and they deny planes in the sky was untrue, or unlikely, then that’s all you would have had to say.

    ….O.K. then, we’ve dealt with one, now, as you said,
    on to the next.

  33. No, we’ve not dealt with it, not at all. Surely you don’t accept my opinion? I’m just some guy on the internet.

    When I suggested you “try it and see what happens”, I was attempting to establish some common ground, so we could discuss and analyzes this claim of William Thomas.

    As a reminder, you said that you said you found this especially interesting:

    You can be on a cell phone, in real time, reporting the presence of an aircraft overhead to the FAA and they will tell you that no such aircraft exists on their radar screens.

    My suggestion was to get you to think about what might actually be involved here. For a start, who are you going to call? Note that there quite literally thousands of planes in the air at any once second. If you call 1-866-TELL-FAA, then why exactly would you expect them to tell you about ANY plane? Who exactly are you going to call, the local tower? Why are they going to take time away from shuffling planes around to try to help figure out what a particular plane is?

    Indeed, if Thomas only called them to report “chemtrail” planes, then how does he know that their response is any different from “regular” planes?

    So that’s why I suggested you try it yourself. If you can’t do it, or would not expect it to work, then why exactly is this claim “interesting”?

  34. GG says:

    Uncinus and jazzroc are part the ‘changeling’ crowd
    the fact that you have all ‘days’ to hover around this site …speaks volumes
    anyway i work next to an airport – there will be days
    where a plane emmits regular dissipating contrails
    and in the same ‘sky vicinity right next to it’ half hour later a plane with non dissiapting chemtrails will appear
    -same atmosphere – same weather conditions – explain this away Captain Jones and company

  35. The planes are at different altitudes. All it takes is a few hundred feet.

  36. GG says:

    Yea – so anyway – im here to inform people that new technologies are being tested – in the same fashion that there are bioengineered single cell organisms that remove pollutants from the ocean when an oil spill occurs -the same is being tested for carcinogenic pollutants in the sky etc..etc..
    Thats how US corporations roll – you guys are just cow pasteured to ‘authority’ – i hope that works for you – i hereby declare YOU Information Terrorists – have a nice day

  37. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-When I read the article, although the author references William Thomas, I was under the impression that the author [a pilot] was the one who had made the phone call, not Thomas.
    I found it interesting because I thought that if anyone had an idea about whom to call regarding planes in the sky,….it would be a PILOT…..

    …..now can I say “we’ve dealt with it”?

  38. I’m a pilot, I don’t know who to call. Most of that type of communication with ATC is done by radio, and not cell phone.

    I think what you have here is an unverified account of something that may or may not have happened, that simply indicated someone calling someone else was unable to determine the identity of a plane that was nearby.

    It would be more interesting if there was a transcript. Who did they call? What did they ask? Where were they? What was the response? What direction was the plane flying in?

    Also of interest here – why are there no other reports like this, of unidentifiable planes? I mean where someone actually TRIED to identify a plane. You are familiar with FlightAware? Let’s say you are in Seattle, and you want to identify a plane, would you not be able to find it here?

    http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KSEA

    If this is as widespread as you suggest, then surely there would be thousands of such reports?

  39. SR1419 says:

    GG-

    You can ridicule all you want…but that does not diminish the facts.

    Atmospheric scientists from around the world have provided a wide body of information regarding the formation and persistence of contrails.

    Needless to say (or is it?), there are many factors and variables that go into any given contrail.

    Some of those involve the specific plane and its engines- different planes and or different engines can create different contrails for any given set of atmospheric conditions…such that 2 planes can fly through the exact same spot and one can leave a contrail and one will not…or one leave a ephemeral contrail and one will leave a persisting contrail.

    Learn the facts before you attack…the fact that you do not speaks volumes.

  40. billybob says:

    Uncinus you are either a total disinformation agent or more blind than my dead grandmother??? I sit here in Florida and watch these bastards spay this crap on us on a daily basis, i live about 10 miles from OIA and i can sit here and watch the normal contrails compared to the chemtrails all day long, anybody with even a slight knowledge of science knows these are not contrails, contrails don’t leave a line along the entire sky and then over about 6 or 7 hours spread across the entire sky, THAT WOULD BE SOME HELL AMAZING ICE CRYSTALS!! There is so much information on these chemtrails out there that anyone who would say there are not real is living a delusional lie.

  41. Hi billybob, actually if you look into it, you’ll see that contrails do actually sometimes spread out, see for example the Encyclopædia Britannica:
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/623212/vapour-trail

    Contrail, streamer of cloud sometimes observed behind an airplane flying in clear, cold, humid air. It forms upon condensation of the water vapour produced by the combustion of fuel in the airplane engines. When the ambient relative humidity is high, the resulting ice-crystal plume may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.

    So would you also say the editors of the Encyclopædia Britannica are “living a delusional lie.”

  42. GG says:

    SR1419
    that must be a different log in for one of the same person
    whenever you start throwing around ‘learn the facts’
    Are you talking about ‘facts’ that some corporate scientist was paid to produce for the well being of the stock holders – or some third party unbiased – ‘doesnt have any stake in the benefits’ scientist talking about facts – which one?

  43. GG says:

    Ok – somebody- anybody -attach a picture taken in the 1950’s or 1960’s hell even the 70’s, that clearly shows a long lingering trail, left by an AIRPLANE! YOU ARE NOT not gonna find any – WHY? i think you know why
    Corporations, Governments, Military business has already proven itself time and time again that they cannot be left and trusted to their own devices – ‘They’ would have the entire human race eating out of trash cans and chained up- in the name of their own self serving, quality of living

  44. billybob says:

    I think the key words in the britannicas definition Uncinus is ” on rare occasions” Like i said i’m in Florida and i don’t care if it’s rain or shine 60 degrees out or 100 these things are in the skies here everyday all day, plus you can watch anywhere from 4 to about 10 planes at a time going back and forth, back and forth over a set pattern for hours at a time laying these thing out..Are the pilots lost?? Maybe they need Mapquest on their planes? It’s also interesting that alot of the other photos in the links you posted was during war time which they spray something called chaff into the air to confuse radar, they been doing it since ww1, but as far as i know there is no war going on here in the U.S?? Or maybe then again there is.
    You might also want to do a little more research on the subject, we already know through testing that these things have Aluminum, thorium, barium, pathagens of all kinds and some kind of fibers.( look up morgellons). I’ve been on this earth for 42 years looking at contrails, these are NOT contrails by any means??

  45. I’m afraid you misread the encyclopedia entry. The “rare occasions” refers to wingtip streamers. Here’s the full text, with the relevant pieces highlighted:

    vapour trail
    aerology
    also called Condensation Trail, or Contrail, streamer of cloud sometimes observed behind an airplane flying in clear, cold, humid air. It forms upon condensation of the water vapour produced by the combustion of fuel in the airplane engines. When the ambient relative humidity is high, the resulting ice-crystal plume may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud. On rare occasions, when the air is nearly saturated with water vapour, air circulation at the wing tips of an airplane may cause sufficient pressure and temperature reductions to cause cloud streamers to form.

    Chaff has not been used since WW1, chaff (called “Window”) was first used in July 1943. At that time it consisted of strips of aluminum foil, and so looked nothing like a persistent contrail. Modern chaff is basically invisible to the naked eye when released at altitude.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/A591545

    I have actually done quite a bit of research into the “chemtrails” theory, and I’ve not found any good evidence of anything in the trails (other than water, etc). Perhaps though your could share your evidence, so we could discuss it?

  46. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-When did I say it was “widespread”?……I DIDN’T.

    Also, I thought you had said once we’ve dealt with one, on to the next?….

    …………………………………………….
    ……..waiting.

  47. What’s your actual opinion Jake? You keep saying things are “interesting”, but what do you actually think about chemtrails and about this site?

    I’m asking because you seem to constantly bring up these things from the internet and ask my opinion on them. But you don’t seem to want to commit beyond a vague “that’s interesting”.

    So do you actually think something is going on?

  48. Jakeability says:

    Uncinus-Actually, I don’t believe ‘chemtrails’ are real, I think they are probably normal contrails. There are more contrails and they do persist longer, but I believe this is due to newer engine composition, and increased air travel.
    Usually, where there’s smoke there’s fire,……..yet in this case, I haven’t been able to locate any fires.
    But there is still alot of smoke, which is why I continue to dig, I continue to ask questions. The more info, right and wrong, I can accumulate, the more complete my judgement will be.
    So, with that said,……..on to the next one please.

  49. Alright, let’s polish off your “especially interesting” questions:

    Especially interesting to me was the ‘cell phone-FAA’ thing in #8, and the experiments on ice crystal formation by the ‘lear jet’ in #6…..and as is mentioned in #7, why aren’t passengers reporting these criss-cross patterns, if those are civilian flights……..and to top it off…..all of this coming from a PILOT!

    We’ve discussed the cell phone/FAA, so:

    the experiments on ice crystal formation by the ‘lear jet’ in #6

    6) Contrails cannot be shut on and off at will, nor abruptly, as witnesses have seen in numerous sightings of chemical spraying by aircraft. I personally have seen this type of on/off spraying in Utah by two military tankers flying in loose formation. When numerous witnesses called KSL–TV in Salt Lake City to investigate, KSL dutifully parroted the government’s official response: that the aircraft was a government contractor flying a Lear jet and doing experiments on ice crystal formation. Baloney! As one of those witnesses, and an experienced pilot, I can tell you those two huge military tanker aircraft were not tiny Lear jets.

    Here the assumption is that what Mr Pilot saw was the same thing as what KTL-TV was reporting on. Where’s the evidence of this? And why no photos, if so many people saw something so amazing that they called the local TV station about it, you’d think they would take a photo or two?

    People DO do experiment with ice formation. Icing is a major problem, see the recent Flight 3407 crash in Buffalo.

    as is mentioned in #7, why aren’t passengers reporting these criss-cross patterns, if those are civilian flights

    #7 … In addition, chemtrail sightings almost never come close to normal airway intersections, lest they interfere with normal traffic or be observed by other airline passengers.

    Because they generally can’t see them, being at the same altitude, they would be edge on to any “grid”, and so it would look totally different. Remember the North-South contrails will be separated from the East-West contrails, usally by at least 1000 feet, and probably more. Now, if they we flying at 60,000 feet, they might be able to see it (looking down)

    And what on earth is he talking about with “chemtrail sightings almost never come close to normal airway intersections”? We’ve had several weeks of persistent contrails here in LA, which obviously has many normal airway intersections.

    Which brings us to the last point: “all of this coming from a PILOT!” – well, there are pilots and there are pilots. I’m a pilot, but just of single engine planes. What exactly does this make me an expert in? Anyone can take pilot lessons – it requires no particular skill. What kind of a pilot is the author?

  50. GG says:

    awww – i cut too deep im sorry – the truth hurts
    whats especially disturbing – is that you believe – you or your family will not be affected by these chemicals –
    Its not just in the USA though mate
    http://www.bluenomore.com/

  51. It never was “just in the USA”. Persistent contrails work the same everywhere. They are less frequently seen in Australia, as it has fewer population centers that are overflown, and has a very sparse population. The most likely place to see contrails in Australia would be in a place midway between large cities, like, say, Port Macquarie. And of course, it depends on the weather, so you might only see them a few days or weeks of the year, depending on the climate. We only get about 10 weeks a year here in LA.

    GG, I’m interested in if you’ve actually looked into the science and history of contrail formation?

  52. SR1419 says:

    GG-

    don’t take my word for it…learn for yourself- review the 100s of scientific papers from scientists around the world- dating back 50 years…detailing persistent contrails that spread and cover the sky in a haze…

    look up:

    contrail cirrus

    or

    supersaturated persistent contrail

    Lots of papers written by unbiased scientists with no corporate ties…

    Here is one to start with:

    http://tinyurl.com/4qyaww

    “On the Transition of Contrails into Cirrus Clouds”

    Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences
    Volume 57, Issue 4 (February 2000)

    There are many, many more that detail contrail formation, persistence and cirrus cloud inducement…Even many that have sampled persistent contrails directly- in situ-.

    Also- here is an interesting photo from 1983:

    http://www.1000plus.com/Imagic/8301sund.htm

  53. SR1419 says:

    BillyBob-

    Please show where any contrail that has been sampled directly- in situ- right from the plume- has been shown to contain any of the materials you mentioned…

    Just one…

    Sticking a jar on the hood of a car for 3 days doesn’t count as a contrail sample…

    Many, Many contrails have been sampled in flight – and NONE of them have had barium in them.

  54. GG says:

    We are buried in so much mis-disinformation -right down to what kids learn in school about the history of this country – why world wars happen – why the FDA operates in the fashion that it does -what money really is and how it manipulates the world – SO…What does reading a few links on the internet have to do with changing someones mind, in respect to all the aforementioned?
    Once again why YOU dont have a more suspicious human intelligence and genuine concern in this matter – is the question here

  55. It’s not just a “few links on the internet”, it’s actually all of atmospheric science, dating back to the 1920s, that explains how contrails form, and why they sometimes persist.

    Perhaps you could explain why you think they don’t persist? How exactly did you come to that decision?

  56. GG says:

    trust me – the only reason people are logging on here is to try to convince the creeps that run this site – to stop posting B.S about ‘contrails’

  57. Actually, most of the visitors here don’t comment. Most of them come here via a search. This is the most popular page they end up reading:

    http://contrailscience.com/contrail-or-chemtrail/

  58. SR1419 says:

    GG-

    actually the question was- as posed by you:

    “Ok – somebody- anybody -attach a picture taken in the 1950’s or 1960’s hell even the 70’s, that clearly shows a long lingering trail, left by an AIRPLANE! YOU ARE NOT not gonna find any – WHY?”

    …and as a response- several photos from 50s, 60s, 70 and 80s of long, lingering contrails were shown you…

    Moreover, access to verifiable, peer-reviewed information detail the persistence of contrails and the spreading and formation of contrail-cirrus clouds were provided for you…

    and yet – still you cling to misconceptions…

    What are the chances that you actually looked at any of the photos, or read the paper, or did the research?

    Still believe persistent contrails didn’t exist back in the 70s?

  59. James says:

    trust me – the only reason people are logging on here is to try to convince the creeps that run this site – to stop posting B.S about ‘contrails’

    Except me.

    And SR1419 there.

    And jazzroc.

    And the various other people who have made simple one-off comments thanking Uncinus for his reasoned, well-explained, science-backed website.

  60. William says:

    trust me – the only reason people are logging on here is to try to convince the creeps that run this site – to stop posting B.S about ‘contrails’

    Not me! I understand the science that explains contrails of all types, rather nicely.

    I’m a former pilot (SEL) with a 33 year history in Aviation. There isn’t a single doubt in my mind that “chemtrails” are a hoax, and a bad hoax at that!

    As a matter of fact, there isn’t a single “fact” to support the “chemtrail” claim. They may THINK they have the facts, but they certainly do not!

    No trail has been tested and found to contain barium and/or aluminum. There is no proof that anything found on the ground and tested was “sprayed” by airplanes. Yet, I read on youtube about all the different chemicals and compounds found in trails and positively dropped on the ground by airplanes. It’s ridiculous!

    The facts are there for all to see in any meteorology book written for pilots.

    The only reason people believe in this hoax is because they are paranoid.

    Thank you Uncinus for making this great website! If ONE chemtrailer is helped along the way to sanity, all your efforts will be worth it!

  61. Stars15k says:

    I come here in support of the site myself. Count me in….way in. Absolutely a breath of fresh air after YouTube. There is science and common sense, and no paranoia to be seen. Well at least SOME of us.
    GG seems the typical chembeliever, ducking the questions. Oh, well. Is anyone else being PAID to spread the disinformation called “science”? On YouTube, I’ve been called many names, scumsucker and douchebag to name just two, and been declared “outed” as a paid agent of the NWO. If you too, are a real paid NWO disinformation agent (whether you are a douchebag or scumsucker doesn’t matter, I think), how do you get your pay? I’ve not seen one check, no direct deposits, no cash drops, nothing. Just wondering.

  62. Jakeability says:

    Stars15k-Maybe if you want to get paid, you should start up a debunking site,….right Uncinus?……. ……only joking!

  63. GG says:

    …..always seem to have all the answers – and you know exactly every airplane that takes off and every cloud name and you know all the intentions of large corporations…im a pilot and id never do that..bla bla bla – im miltary and i never heard of that bla bla bl…
    Youre forgetting biggest human golden rule – to be skeptical of big unethical forces and big money intention -is human
    youre basically proving that your full of shit – by always having (your version of) the right answer

  64. Surely actually being wrong would prove that rather better?

    Perhaps, instead of saying your critics always seem to be right, you could point out some errors?

  65. Stars15k says:

    Using the same name on YouTube and have been accused of using many different ones. I’m really being brave here; I’ve been told “they” are coming……

    Anon….You have a very interesting turn of logic going there. Having all the answers is being full of poo. I believe the majority of US people at least, would think the Golden Rule was Doing onto others as you would have done to you. I’ve never considered anything even close to your statement being especially human or a golden rule. Quite the paranoid cynic mentality. Uncinus is right, I’ve been called out and called names by chembelievers because I side with the science, but I’ve never had one yet prove any statement I made was wrong….at least factually wrong. Science is repeatable, quantitative, and exact. That is the hallmark of truth. Show us where we are wrong. Not just statements or personal observation, unless you were able to properly sample and test under exacting conditions, but real facts that we are wrong. Please?

    We’ll be waiting, enjoying our lives, watching the clouds do what clouds do, secure in the knowledge that science proves us right.

  66. Diana Gunther says:

    I think Redding is a perfect place for the gov. to experiment on. Look at our water supply, full of floride, which dummies people up. Look at the health of the citizens in Redding, lot’s of medical facilities, very few Naturopath’s, a lot of smoking, drinking and denial about health.

    Please people, wake up! It’s called the new world order’s agenda and depopulation!

  67. Diana Gunther says:

    I believe the gov wants to dummy the people up, and Redding is the perfect place, look at our water supply, full of toxic floride (and god knows what else). Look at our skies, and then just look at the health of the people here, smokers, druggys and drinkers, overweight and all dummied up for the new world order’s agenda of depopulation with all of their pharmaceuticals. We have a ton of medical facilities but very few Naturopath’s (one in the entire town). As my nurse practitioner quoted to me, “people don’t seem to care here about their health” and that’s why she works in the medical field and not in the Natural Health Field.

    Wake up Redding! The agenda is right on the mark in this town. Truly, this is no conspiracy theory.

  68. globalpatriotworker says:

    I’ve got a very simple solution to end the speculation…..IDENTIFY the aircraft being witnessed and documented with the trails…..who owns them? where are they going? where did they come from? Why won’t the FAA do this?

    Identifying the observed aircraft will lead to the truth and end this tit for tat garbage….either this is normal commercial traffic or it is not.
    GPW

  69. It’s usually quite easy to identify the aircraft using FlightAware:

    http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTUL

  70. gg says:

    stop obfuscating the truth – stop betraying peoples trust
    its only gonna come back to haunt ‘you’

    http://www.cfr.org/content/thinktank/GM_CFR_briefing_REV.pdf

    ALL PEOPLES Check this out!

    Geoengineering: Workshop on Unilateral Planetary Scale Geoengineering

    The quote below is from: Workshop briefing notes: Unilateral Geoengineering:

    Geoengineering Strategies

    Among all geoengineering schemes, those currently considered most feasible involve increasing the planetary albedo, that is, reflecting more sunlight back into space before it can be absorbed. There are a number of different methods that could be used to increase the planet’s reflectivity:

    1. Add more small reflecting particles in the upper part of the atmosphere (the stratosphere which is located between 15 and 50 kilometers above the Earth’s surface).

    2. Add more clouds in the lower part of the atmosphere (the troposphere)

    3. Place various kinds of reflecting objects in space either near the earth or at a stable location between the earth and the sun.

    4. Change large portions of the planet’s land cover from things that are dark (absorbing) such as trees to things that are light (reflecting) such as open snowcover or grasses.

    Stratospheric Aerosols

    Adding more of the right kind of fine particles to the stratosphere can increase the amount of sunlight that is reflected back into space.

    Applied to geoengineering, various technologies could be used to loft particles into the stratosphere, such as naval guns, rockets, hot air balloons or blimps, or a fleet of highflying aircraft. Potential types of particles for injection include sulfur dioxide, aluminum oxide dust or even designer self-levitating aerosols that might be engineered to migrate to particular regions (e.g. over the arctic) or to rise above the stratospher (so as not to interfere in stratospheric chemistry).

    HERE IS THE LINK TO VIEW THIS FOR YOURSELF ON THE CFR WEBSITE:

    http://www.cfr.org/project/1364/geoengineering.html

    How would they know? cause theyve already been doing it
    thats where the test data come from –

    stop this ‘fictitious contrailscience’ website already

  71. gg, that’s an interesting paper which sets out the issues and possibilities very well. But it’s really nothing new. The exact same kind of science has been proposed for decades. Just because someone mentioned something in some paper is no evidence at all that they are actually doing it. Are there “reflecting objects in space”? Have the clouds changed? Has there been deliberate deforestation and grass planting? Is there more iron in the ocean?

    You see, you really need some actual evidence that it is actually happening. This is a paper about what nations might be forced to do in the future. There is nothing in the paper that suggests that ANY of the things they suggest have been tried, nor are they likely to be tried in the next few years.

  72. gg says:

    How do you think they know this would work? – to propose this in a paper -The Council of Foreign Relations mind you- how do you think they know it would work? – again …how many times do i need to ask before it sinks in? -How do you think they know it would work? – simple answer – because they have data showing it would ..where does the data come from?
    from studies showing theyve been doing this for quite some time-
    I feel like a kindergarten teacher- jeesus christ

  73. What about all the other things they proposed? Did they try them as well? It’s the exact same thing. There’s no more evidence that they are spraying aerosols than there is that they are placing reflective objects in space.

    And again, similar things have been proposed for decades. It’s nothing new. But there’s STILL no evidence that they are actually doing it.

  74. bryansail says:

    There is evidence as has been linked here before that the military does use aerosols for various purposes. Many hundreds of papers document that deploying aerosols for various purposes is being rigorously pursued. How widescale the program is
    we don’t know. That’s why the issue of contrails / chemtrails has legs. Barium salts for instance have been deployed for
    atmospheric ducting and HAARP research.

    To know whether or not surfactants are being turbocharged for more robust contrail formation is not really known but it would
    be wise to continue paying close attention.

    Regards and keep looking up (you may see a boloid at any moment as well !)

  75. blue no more says:

    I dont know about anybody else but I think this site is government run. They have some ill informed science geek trying to make us all seem stupid. Oh and uncinus, why dont you explain to everyone why there is a flu epidemic going on and it just so happens that people are not testing to have the flu virus, its testing to be a unknown pathogen..hmmm? Must be all those damn “contrails” ehh? How do i know that u might ask… my dad is a physician……..ok im done uncinus….”debunk” away……make me feel stupid! lol

  76. There is evidence as has been linked here before that the military does use aerosols for various purposes.

    Well, I use aerosols for various purposes, everyone does. Just about everyone and everything both uses and produces aerosols.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosol

  77. Can you explain the connection between flu and contrails? If there is a flu epidemic, then why does the pathogen have to come from contrails? And why would that make the contrails look different?

  78. SR1419 says:

    Hi BryanSail-

    Can you please provide evidence to your claim of barium being dispersed via contrail for Haarp research?

    thanks.

  79. Awed says:

    Uncinus, I know others have posted this before, but it really needs to be reiterated for your sake. I am just amazed at how you can take all of these comments from fanatics who ignore pretty much everything you say and every scrap of scientific evidence you post, keep repeating their tired arguments over and over, and continuously hurling numerous colourful insults and accusations at you from behind the safety of their computer monitors. All this, and you don’t even show a hint of any possibility of you losing your temper. On the other hand, I completely gave up on this after getting blocked from one fanatic’s YouTube video after being called an “NWO elite”, “disinfo agent” and a whore (funny how he claims to stand up for information and liberty, yet are quick to surpress the right to free speech of those sceptical about their claims wherever they can). Again, your almost inhuman patience with these guys leaves me in awe.

  80. Thanks Awed, Unfortunately I’m sure my patience is also rather suspicious 🙂

  81. Jakeability says:

    Back again….you ‘patience’ is just one of MANY suspicious things about this site….

  82. Jakeability says:

    Hi Uncinus-JazzRoc-SR1419- 🙂 What is your analysis of this video. It ‘appears’ [I know, I know, I can’t trust my eyes]….to be a windowless, red tanker, and it ‘appears’ to show ‘on-off’ activity, and it ‘appears’ to have two large spraying devices seperate from the engines…..Now, I know this MUST be an illusion, right?

  83. Jakeability, the video did not show up. Did you forget to post the link?

  84. Jakeability says:

    Yup,…I smoked my lunch again…:)….here it is.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwzYD3aJYjI&feature=player_embedded

  85. That video shows several different planes. Could you give the precise time in the video that shows the things you describe, so we don’t discuss the wrong things?

    Regarding things being “windowless” – firstly there are windowless cargo planes, and secondly, with digital zoom on a video camera, the effective resolution is very low. Here’s an example of this effect simulated, first the original image, 640 pixels wide. Note how small the windows are:

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Philippine-Airlines/Airbus-A330-301/1479291/M/

    Now with it reduced to 80 pixels wide, and then digitally zoomed.

    See, you can’t see the windows. Since they are smaller than a single sensor on the camera’s CCD, they simply don’t show up (except as a faint greyness).

  86. DGS says:

    I would be more concerned with the lead levels in your samples. What is the actual threshold limit for exposure on Lead in North America?

  87. The EPA limit is 15 ppb in drinking water. Local limits vary. This sample shows 81.9 ppb

    Of course, this sample is not actually drinking water. And nor, unfortunately, is 81.9 unusually high for municipal drinking water.

  88. Stars15k says:

    AWED, please come back to YT. I have taken your place apparently. I, too, am a scum-sucking, bottom-feeding douchebag government paid stoolie disinformation agent. And I keep it up anyway. I replied to someone’s questions and actually got her to reconsider her original opinion and at least think it all through again. I might not get one every day, but each one I hold dear. “We” need you!

  89. West Hills, CA 91307 says:

    April 28th, 2009 – 1:30 PM.
    Today my wife and I took a 45 minute hike/walk into the Ahmanson Ranch area. We entered from the entrance from the top of Victory Blvd. (West San Fernando Valley, West Hills CA). Victory dead-ends at the entrance to the ranch. This area is a state park between Woodland Hills/West Hills and Calabasas/Agoura CA.

    I noticed that the sky overhead was full of faded streams of zigzag trails… I didn’t think much of it until we both got home (a 15 minute walk to our home near-by); both myself and my wife became sick to our stomachs. I can’t remember the last time I have had a headache… I thought my head was going to come off. Both of us felt horrible… eyes burning and nauseous. My wife became very ill and had to lay down.

    We think there was something in the air we were breathing that affected us both. We had no idea what a chem-trail was until we found this site. It appears we cannot even go outside anymore…

  90. duhbaaaaaa says:

    Are you the guys that debunked the wtc and proved fire brought it down. This is the biggest bunch of crap I’ve ever seen. If you want to see what barium really is, then just watch these videos below and the documents referenced. CDC discussed dangers in barium. Barium is found in about 50+ of the declared toxic waste sites. They are not spraying the natural barium formed in the earth over our heads. It is the industrial grade barium salt. Why don’t you view my videos to see what shipping classification must accompany barium shipments…can you say skull and bones. View my videos for the real info and not this bullshit. Ridiculous crap on this page.

    As for barium and other metals being found in water, sure they are. It’s as a result of contamination of the environment and the pipes the water runs through itself. Why do your think they are chemtrailing. It gets in the water and food supply. The natural barium and natural fluoride exist in spring water but not the industrial grade crap that they spray overhead. DON’T BELIEVE THESE LIES…ALL BS

    MY SKIES APRIL 25
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDggY3virFc

    REAL INFO ON BARIUM REFERENCING REAL DOCUMENTS AS WELL AS SYMPTOMS THAT ARE THE SAME AS FLU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec-fbkxo7sg

    SHIPPING INFO ON BARIUM AND THE DANGERS OF FOREST FIRES (e.g. North Carolina) IN CHEMTRAIL AREAS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-4y-VGUG-c

  91. West Hill, don’t you think that if the sky was full with deliberate spraying then EVERYONE would get sick? It seems more likely that there is some other cause of your symptoms.

  92. West Hills, CA 91307 says:

    It seems more likely that there is some other cause of your symptoms.

    You may be right, but we don’t think so. Our area is mostly elderly people; most of whom don’t leave their homes that often to walk or hike. My wife and I rarely get sick, and certainly not at the same time with the fluish symptoms. Whatever we were feeling came on at the same time for both of us. We think we were breathing something while hiking under the laced clouds above us.

    In the last three months, there has been a sticky substance all over our cars a couple times per month… it’s on our neighbors cars as well… including our backyard glass patio tables. We have lived here for 17 years and have never seen this before.

    When we leave one of our cars parked in our driveway instead of pulling it in the garage… in the morning, the entire car has a clear sticky matted film all over it… It’s very easy to see, specially on the wind shields. We have no idea what is causing this. I have spoke to other neighbors whom are aware of it as well. Something new is happening in our area.

  93. Perhaps the trees are maturing? Sticky windshields are usually a sign of tree sap. What type of trees are on your street?

  94. West Hills, CA 91307 says:

    It is not from trees. The difference between sap and a film type of spray/coating is obvious; there are no trees even close to our driveway, let alone the back yard patio furniture near the house. Our neighbors cars are covered as well. One neighbor thinks it has something to do with Malathion spraying. It appears to happen at night, as we always discover it in the morning.

    We going to call the L.A. Dept of Health and swipe some samples for evaluation. We are located just next to what is considered a Mountain Conservatory (3,000 acres between the San Fernando Valley & Malibu):
    http://www.cityofcalabasas.com/hikingtrails.html

    Malathion:
    http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a906307724~db=all

  95. So why do you think this is connected to contrails? Would it not coat every car in LA?

  96. West Hills, CA 91307 says:

    Don’t think the sticky stuff on our cars is related to these trails you guys are talking about… just mentioned it cause it is happening. L.A. is huge- If their spraying in our area because were next to the conservatory (or for whatever reason), then every car in L.A- and whatever else it falls on, is not going to be affected. In any case, were gonna’ keep watching.

  97. But you still think your sickness was related to the trails in the sky? The same argument still holds – a LOT of people would be getting sick. Planes fly at five miles up, where the wind levels are routinely over 60 mph, so any trail would cover hundreds of square miles by the time it reached the ground (and since you can still see the trails in the sky, then how can they have reached the ground? How fast does a cloud fall?)

  98. duhbaaaaaa says:

    The barium salts used in chemtrails is NOT the natural barium. It is required to be shipped Class 6.1 Highly Toxic handle with care. You guys are either full of crap or you don’t know what you’re talking about. Like comparing calcium fluoride (natural) to sodium fluoride (industrial byproduct – toxic and hazmat suits needed to apply to municipal water). Same old ploy here but now you’re candy coating barium. BS to you

  99. Except that nobody has every found any evidence of Barium salts of any kind being found in trails of any kind. If they have, then why not point to the lab report?

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